8 Dec
2000
8 Dec
'00
11:04 a.m.
EMC and other disk storage manufacturers are trying to convince everybody to
move all of the data online and just buy more disk arrays when you need
them. We are trying to setup a system to archive medical images and are
required to keep the image for at least 25 years. The 25 years is 7 years
past the point the child turns 18. Of course that could change. The
medical archive manufacturers all swear that online storage is the way to
go. Of course their true interest is the next quarters profit margin.
I am from the old school and like off line backups. Now the question is
what kind of off line backup. I have old thermafax medical reports that are
35 years old and are basically unreadable. Film at least will survive if it
is stored properly. I know we have 8" floppy data of CT images from the
late 70's and probably 1600 bpi 9-track tapes. I don't even try to read
them.
Everybody is converting their 16mm cardiac angiography movies from film to
CD's.
I think I need to develop a film based technology. There probably is some
sort of microfilm already around.
If you want real long term storage I have heard that there are people
working on 10,000 year storage methods, etched iridium plates. For some
reason I seem to remember that the genealogy people in Salt Lake City, Utah
are working with this.
Mike McFadden
mmcfadden(a)cmh.edu
8 Dec
8 Dec
2:42 p.m.
McFadden, Mike wrote:
[Snip]
go. Of course their true interest is the next quarters profit margin.
Jerome Fine replies:
One word - GREED! I have rarely seen a company that believes
that their first responsibility is to meet the needs of the customer
as best they can. What is not realized is that over the long term, that
is also best for the vendor. The problem is that share prices over the
short run are more important.
The other problem is that no matter what the size of the online storage,
a backup MUST still be kept. I suppose that tape is OK for this
since it is only a matter of days, not even weeks.
I am from the old school and like off line backups.
Now the question is
what kind of off line backup. I have old thermafax medical reports that are
35 years old and are basically unreadable. Film at least will survive if it
is stored properly. I know we have 8" floppy data of CT images from the
late 70's and probably 1600 bpi 9-track tapes. I don't even try to read
them.
I still have some 8" floppy data as well, although only from the 1980s.
But, I no longer regard any tapes that are more than 5 years old as being
a reasonable media. Every tape more than 2 years old should be written
again to keep a backup current. Of course, I have some tapes that are
more than 10 years old, but I would never rely on them even if I had
20 copies unless I had just read at least 10 of the copies successfully
within the past 6 months.
Everybody is converting their 16mm cardiac angiography
movies from film to
CD's.
No evidence, but CDs seem like the best media for the next 30 years.
Key point is that it is already machine readable - that aspect is so important!
I think I need to develop a film based technology.
There probably is some
sort of microfilm already around.
I agree that microfilm is OK for some purposes, but each situation must
be looked at individually. I hear that NASA has barns full of tapes
which can no longer be read. If they could have been transferred to
CD before that happened, the data could have been saved. Likely
CD media and low cost did not arrive in time. The window of
opportunity was probably never there to start with - likely by more
than 10 years and maybe even 20 years of a mismatch before the
first tapes started to go bad.
If you want real long term storage I have heard that
there are people
working on 10,000 year storage methods, etched iridium plates. For some
reason I seem to remember that the genealogy people in Salt Lake City, Utah
are working with this.
This is the real reason that I am sending a reply. If plans are being made to
save data for at least 10,000 years, then I suspect that it is also more
than reasonable to ask - no demand - that operating systems are able to
handle dates far into the future as opposed to just the next few years
in many cases. I am in the process of completing Y2K patches for an
old hobby version of V5.03 of the RT-11 Operating System. Fortunately,
it achieved hobby status and it is available for download. But I do not
think that stopping at year 2099 is reasonable at this point. The patches
should be able to carry the code to at least year 9999. I tend to feel
that if storage methods are being looked at which can last for 10,000 years,
then perhaps the almost trivial extra effort should also be made to allow
all code to handle up to the year 9999 at this point so long as any effort
is being made to extend the date window for a program in the first place.
Many people have told me that I am crazy to even consider this
possibility, let alone do the work, but why save data for 10,000 years?
Does anyone have any advice as to how to handle the problem that
the calendar can't be predicted exactly so far into the future?
Sincerely yours,
Jerome Fine
2:10 p.m.
On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Jerome Fine wrote:
Many people have told me that I am crazy to even
consider this
possibility, let alone do the work, but why save data for 10,000 years?
Does anyone have any advice as to how to handle the problem that
the calendar can't be predicted exactly so far into the future?
I don't know...will it matter? Are you intending that people will still
be using these operating systems 8,000 years from now or are you only
concerned about the data itself?
Still, it wouldn't hurt to add another digit in the year field. Of
course, by that time you'll be dead, so what do you care? Let some future
genius figure it out :)
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
5:28 p.m.
On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote:
On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Jerome Fine wrote:
But, of course, that is how we got into the Y2K problem originally.
- don
Many people have told me that I am crazy to even
consider this
possibility, let alone do the work, but why save data for 10,000 years?
Does anyone have any advice as to how to handle the problem that
the calendar can't be predicted exactly so far into the future?
I don't know...will it matter? Are you intending that people will still
be using these operating systems 8,000 years from now or are you only
concerned about the data itself?
Still, it wouldn't hurt to add another digit in the year field. Of
course, by that time you'll be dead, so what do you care? Let some future
genius figure it out :) Sellam Ismail
Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
9 Dec
9 Dec
3:41 a.m.
Don Maslin wrote:
On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote:
Jerome Fine replies:
And that will continue to happen so long as the most important aspect
is short term revenue considerations. I understand that 2038 (or around
that date) is when 32 bit C subroutines will have a problem. Hopefully
by then, most code will be 64 bit and the problem will no longer exist.
The operating system that I am interested in did not get the Y2K patches
and the current version still costs $ US 1600 for the distribution media
and document set. And if the user does not have a license for the last
revision from 1992, a license is also specified for another $ US 900.
Since the old version from 1985 is a hobby version and free to use
under certain restricted conditions, I want to make a Y2K version
available for hobby users and it will not be that much more effort
to bring it to a Y10K level. The only real question is the calendar
which will likely have a leap year or two omitted in the next 8000 years.
But which one is still in question.
Sincerely yours,
Jerome Fine
On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Jerome Fine wrote:
But, of course, that is how we got into the Y2K problem
originally. Many people have told me that I am crazy to even
consider this
possibility, let alone do the work, but why save data for 10,000 years?
Does anyone have any advice as to how to handle the problem that
the calendar can't be predicted exactly so far into the future?
I don't
know...will it matter? Are you intending that people will still
be using these operating systems 8,000 years from now or are you only
concerned about the data itself?
Still, it wouldn't hurt to add another digit in the year field. Of
course, by that time you'll be dead, so what do you care? Let some future
genius figure it out :)
6:05 p.m.
On Sat, 9 Dec 2000, Jerome Fine wrote:
Since the old version from 1985 is a hobby version and
free to use
under certain restricted conditions, I want to make a Y2K version
available for hobby users and it will not be that much more effort
to bring it to a Y10K level. The only real question is the calendar
which will likely have a leap year or two omitted in the next 8000 years.
But which one is still in question.
Why stop at 10K? Why not make it YnK?
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
10 Dec
10 Dec
5:33 p.m.
Sellam Ismail wrote:
On Sat, 9 Dec
2000, Jerome Fine wrote:
Since the old version from 1985 is a hobby version and free to use
under certain restricted conditions, I want to make a Y2K version
available for hobby users and it will not be that much more effort
to bring it to a Y10K level. The only real question is the calendar
which will likely have a leap year or two omitted in the next 8000 years.
But which one is still in question.
Why stop at 10K? Why not make it YnK?
11 Dec
11 Dec
5:58 a.m.
On Sun, 10 Dec 2000, Jerome Fine wrote:
The only question that I still have is the format used
to display the date
when the year is greater than 9999. Any suggestions?
DD-MMM-YYYY(Y...)
But you do realize it will be 8,000 years before anyone cares, right?
This period of time encompasses most (if not all) of our current recorded
history.
By that time everyone will have left the planet. Our computers will be
all alone and lonely.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
10:23 a.m.
Sellam wrote:
But you do realize it will be 8,000 years before
anyone cares, right?
This period of time encompasses most (if not all) of our current recorded
history.
By that time everyone will have left the planet. Our computers will be
all alone and lonely.
Ha! I'm taking my DECSYSTEM-2065 with me!
5:12 p.m.
Eric Smith wrote:
Sellam wrote:
Jerome Fine replies:
And I am taking my copy of RT-11 along with me! The only question
is whether I should have hard copy or a CD. The hard copy might
get wet along the way and the CD might not have a drive available
that can read the files. Any other suggestions?
Sincerely yours,
Jerome Fine
But you do realize it will be 8,000 years before
anyone cares, right?
This period of time encompasses most (if not all) of our current recorded
history.
By that time everyone will have left the planet. Our computers will be
all alone and lonely.
Ha! I'm taking my DECSYSTEM-2065 with me! 
6:39 p.m.
> Sellam wrote:
> > But you do realize it will be 8,000 years before anyone cares, right?
> > This period of time encompasses most (if not all) of our current recorded
> > history.
> > By that time everyone will have left the planet. Our computers will be
> > all alone and lonely.
The hard copy might
get wet along the way and the CD might not have a
drive available
that can read the files. Any other suggestions?
If they could read it at all, they'll be interested in the patterns, and if they
can make sense of those, they may think us too foolish to waste time on. They may
already have a life, without trying to understand ours, way back now. Then again,
the disk might make a good hide scraper. Better put it in something that can't
break or melt in a charcoal fire.
I presume that if the culture is not continuous, the chance that any subsequent
culture will be able to make sense out of our data is slight, and perhaps not
holding much relevant value anyway, for their future.
If the culture is continuous, then the data that survives, I think will do so by
floating above any particular medium that carries it. I assume that multiple
copies in a variety of media will propagate among those who value it.
John Tinker
13 Dec
13 Dec
1:43 p.m.
On Mon, 11 Dec 2000, John Tinker wrote:
I presume that if the culture is not continuous, the
chance that any
subsequent culture will be able to make sense out of our data is
slight, and perhaps not holding much relevant value anyway, for their
future.
Very good point. We still haven't figured out the Mayan heiroglyphics,
and if it wasn't for the Rosetta Stone we probably would not yet have
revealed Egyptian heiroglyphics. We still don't and probably won't
ever know what's encoded on Inca Quipus.
If the culture is continuous, then the data that
survives, I think
will do so by floating above any particular medium that carries it. I
assume that multiple copies in a variety of media will propagate among
those who value it.
And I doubt that anyone several millenia from now will be interested in
running our systems from a practical standpoint, making the whole issue of
calendar compliance moot.
Multics, one of the oldest operating systems around, is not installed in
many places anymore. It's almost a dead OS. I would hate to think people
8,000 years from now would be using Windows ME. It's probably safe to
assume that any OS being used that far out (if in fact the concept of an
OS even applies) will have no direct or even indirect ties to what we are
using today.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
12 Dec
12 Dec
3:27 a.m.
Sellam Ismail wrote:
On Sun, 10 Dec 2000, Jerome Fine wrote:
Jerome Fine replies:
I find that reading 31-Dec-99,999 is preferred to 31-Dec-99999, but
I don't know what the standard will be. Or perhaps 99,999-Dec-31
since with other dates in a column for a directory listing, I suspect
that 31-Dec-08,765 might seem a bit strange rather than
FOO.BAA 8,765-Dec-31
FOO.BAB 28,765-Dec-31
FOO.BAC -2,345-Dec-31
But, if the user is allowed to choose the date format, that would be
even better. Then for dates between 1000 and 9999, the user can
still have his cake and eat it at the same time.
The only question that I still have is the format
used to display the date
when the year is greater than 9999. Any suggestions?
DD-MMM-YYYY(Y...) But you do realize it will be 8,000 years before
anyone cares, right?
This period of time encompasses most (if not all) of our current recorded
history.
Then why do we look at Egyptian literature, some of which is now 5000
years old. I realize that not everyone is interested, but if the work is being
done to make the programs Y2K compliant and it takes only double the
effort to make them Y10K compliant, it was that same attitude that led
to the Y2K problems in the first place. What I am saying is that getting
the software to work until 2099 is very easy since there are no technical
or format problems involved. But, extending the date to even 4000 means
solving a few questions like where to put the extra year bits. However,
once those questions are solved along with allowing for minor hiccups
like which years in the Common Era (Gregorian) calendar are no longer
leap years (or in some cases there might need to be extra leap years),
setting up a reasonable display format for the date with more than 4 year
digits is actually the most difficult part of the coding. And if someone
does decide to actually run the software under multiple emulators, then
imagine the surprise when the current date is actually working - assuming
that the current Common Era calendar is even understood.
By that time everyone will have left the planet. Our
computers will be
all alone and lonely.
I doubt that we will all have left the planet. The alternative is that we will
have bombed or otherwise gutted ourselves back to the stone age. Will
that then qualify as a topic that is over ten years old? Like going back to
the future?
Seriously, however, the point I am trying to make is that the technical
problems that need to be solved are the same whether the date is extended
to 31-Dec-2999 or 999,999-Dec-31. Once there are a few extra bits
around to handle another 900 years, another million years is trivial except
for the display aspects. The internal bits used to record the date need
only 4 more bits for the year 2999, but it is just as easy the use 2 bytes
which then allows years up to at least 4,000,000 in the future. As I
understand the VMS time value, there is room to use dates up to about
the year 25,000 - so the only problem will be the display format for
a very long time - unless the code does not allow for leap years. Since
old versions of VMS are over 10 years old, I think this discussion is
still on topic - how long old code will still function - the same topic as
how long old hardware will still function.
Sincerely yours,
Jerome Fine
5:57 a.m.
On Tue, 12 Dec 2000, Jerome Fine wrote:
Then why do we look at Egyptian literature, some of
which is now 5000
years old. I realize that not everyone is interested, but if the work
is being done to make the programs Y2K compliant and it takes only
double the effort to make them Y10K compliant, it was that same
attitude that led to the Y2K problems in the first place. What I am
I guess I'm wondering why it should matter what the date data structure is
in 8,000 years. I cannot see any practical purpose for it. I guess what
you're saying is "we don't know what the practical purpose is, and the
effort required to extend the date beyond 4 digits is minimal so why not
take the little effort to do it?"
If that's the case then, sure, I can agree with that. But will people in
the future have the need to actually run our operating systems and have
the dates be able to accomodate their current time? Won't they simply be
viewing what we have as artifacts to be documented on their then current
computing systems?
Will there even be computers in 8,000 years? We've only had them for 50,
and look how far they've come. Will they even resemble what we consider
today to be computers? You can make an analogy such as "well, the
Egyptians had papyrus and a stylus, and we have paper and pen, so
computers will be fundamentally the same." But this analogy just does not
apply when it comes to computers and electronics. And then you throw
genetic engineering into the mix and your head starts to hurt.
imagine the surprise when the current date is actually
working -
assuming that the current Common Era calendar is even understood.
Exactly. That's a big assumption. And again, why would that be
practical? It would be novel perhaps. Whatever is supposed to pass as a
human in 8,000 years would think (if in fact they have processes that we
consider today to be "thinking") "how clever these ancestors of ours were,
making their systems compliant with our current day calendars". Or they
might think "why did these silly creatures bother making their pathetic
'computers' able to render dates so far into the future?" Or they might
think "!3nk n;)PN uoiK86w4hj8 ./}}PIOUo75 K&Br".
I doubt that we will all have left the planet. The
alternative is
that we will have bombed or otherwise gutted ourselves back to the
stone age. Will that then qualify as a topic that is over ten years
old? Like going back to the future?
I hope I've left the planet before this has happened.
Seriously, however, the point I am trying to make is
that the technical
problems that need to be solved are the same whether the date is extended
to 31-Dec-2999 or 999,999-Dec-31. Once there are a few extra bits
around to handle another 900 years, another million years is trivial except
for the display aspects. The internal bits used to record the date need
I don't even think we'll even have a problem by 2038 to tell you the
truth. Look at what's happened to computers since 1962. Now project that
forward 38 more years and try to imagine how pointless this discussion
will have been.
only 4 more bits for the year 2999, but it is just as
easy the use 2 bytes
which then allows years up to at least 4,000,000 in the future. As I
understand the VMS time value, there is room to use dates up to about
the year 25,000 - so the only problem will be the display format for
a very long time - unless the code does not allow for leap years. Since
old versions of VMS are over 10 years old, I think this discussion is
still on topic - how long old code will still function - the same topic as
how long old hardware will still function.
Jerome, go outside and take a breath of fresh air once in a while :)
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
7:26 a.m.
New subject: 10,000 years? (was: Data Archival (OT Long)
By then, we may resolve the question on this list.
By then, will MICROS~1 have been broken up?
By then, will we have a RELIABLE OS?
BTW, recent experiments were UNsuccessful at starting fire using
CDs. Therefore, what good will they be?
9:22 a.m.
New subject: 10,000 years? (was: Data Archival (OT Long)
By then, we may resolve the question on this list.
By then, will MICROS~1 have been broken up?
Yes, but not in the way you think. You see, January 23rd, 10,002 the
Microsoft Commonwealth will be invaded by a hideous race known as the
Zorg. They invade us because of a bad trade agreement. It seems
that when they installed Windows 10,000 in their hospitals, the
systems crashed and all the tiny little Zorglings in the creche
die.
They'll completely devistate humanity in a ragged war that will
last a hundred years. By the time we defeat them, we'll be once again
trapped in Mother Earth's gravity well.
All won't be lost though since an enterprising young man will discover a
cache of Z-80 (and glue logic) chip mask drawings etched in gold. Thus
the 2341st Computer Revolution will be born. This same individual will
find the glass holodisc archive of http://www.retroarchive.org and CP/M
will once again flourish in the land.
Bill Gates XXXXXXXIIIV will of course try to co-opt this in his grandest
family tradition by naming it "Computer Program/Microsoft", but no one
pays any attention and a short time later he's fed feet first into a
recently restored 20th century automated sausage press. [Which it is
later discovered to have been restored for this exact purpose.]
By then, will we have a RELIABLE OS?
Depends on how the Zorg react to CP/M, now doesn't it?
g.
10:32 a.m.
New subject: Intel SDK-85 Data Sheet
In case this is of interest to anyone else on the list, I found my SDK-85
Data Sheet and User's Manual (1977) and have scanned the sheet. It may be a
while before the User's Manual is done, since I've already got a number of
things ahead of it. The Data Sheet is available in G4 TIFF right away,
though I can, potentially translate it to some other bitmap format.
Let me know (soon) if you want it. It's 6 pages and the resulting 5-page
G4-TIFF is about 625KB.
Dick
10:43 a.m.
New subject: 10,000 years? (was: Data Archival (OT Long)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene Buckle" <geneb(a)deltasoft.com>
... though the roman numeral boondoggle below didn't originate with him ...
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 1:22 PM
Subject: Re: 10,000 years? (was: Data Archival (OT Long)
Shouldn't that be LXX (for the first part)? Maybe you can write out in
decimal what IIIV is supposed to be, since only ONE lesser character to the
left is subtracted, and the two remaining 'I's are meaningless.
By then, we
may resolve the question on this list.
By then, will MICROS~1 have been broken up?
Yes, but not in the way you think. You see, January 23rd, 10,002 the
Microsoft Commonwealth will be invaded by a hideous race known as the
Zorg. They invade us because of a bad trade agreement. It seems
that when they installed Windows 10,000 in their hospitals, the
systems crashed and all the tiny little Zorglings in the creche
die.
They'll completely devistate humanity in a ragged war that will
last a hundred years. By the time we defeat them, we'll be once again
trapped in Mother Earth's gravity well.
All won't be lost though since an enterprising young man will discover a
cache of Z-80 (and glue logic) chip mask drawings etched in gold. Thus
the 2341st Computer Revolution will be born. This same individual will
find the glass holodisc archive of http://www.retroarchive.org and CP/M
will once again flourish in the land.
Bill Gates XXXXXXXIIIV
will of course try to co-opt
this in his
grandest
family tradition by naming it "Computer
Program/Microsoft", but no one
pays any attention and a short time later he's fed feet first into a
recently restored 20th century automated sausage press. [Which it is
later discovered to have been restored for this exact purpose.]
By then, will we have a RELIABLE OS?
Depends on how the Zorg react to CP/M, now doesn't it?
g.
11:41 a.m.
New subject: 10,000 years? (was: Data Archival (OT Long)
Bill Gates
XXXXXXXIIIV
Shouldn't that be LXX (for the first part)? Maybe you can write out in
decimal what IIIV is supposed to be, since only ONE lesser character to the
left is subtracted, and the two remaining 'I's are meaningless.
1:41 p.m.
New subject: 10,000 years? (was: Data Archival (OT Long)
Having only recently disposed of my locally resident teen-aged sons, I'm
still oversensitized to sophomoric humor, which, despite my attenuated
appreciation, is still, <cringe> humor.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene Buckle" <geneb(a)deltasoft.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 3:41 PM
Subject: Re: 10,000 years? (was: Data Archival (OT Long)
> > Bill Gates XXXXXXXIIIV
> >
> Shouldn't that be LXX (for the first part)? Maybe you can write out in
> decimal what IIIV is supposed to be, since only ONE lesser character to
the
left is
subtracted, and the two remaining 'I's are meaningless.
Richard, it's a joke fer chrissakes. It's meant to be amusing, not
accurate. There are times when one shouldn't be too pedantic. This is
one
of those times. :)
g.
12:02 p.m.
New subject: 10,000 years? (was: Data Archival (OT Long)
At 02:43 PM 12/12/2000 -0700, you wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene Buckle" <geneb(a)deltasoft.com>
... though the roman numeral boondoggle below didn't originate with him ...
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 1:22 PM
Subject: Re: 10,000 years? (was: Data Archival (OT Long)
> > By then, we may resolve the question on this list.
> >
> > By then, will MICROS~1 have been broken up?
> >
> Yes, but not in the way you think. You see, January 23rd, 10,002 the
> Microsoft Commonwealth will be invaded by a hideous race known as the
> Zorg. They invade us because of a bad trade agreement. It seems
> that when they installed Windows 10,000 in their hospitals, the
> systems crashed and all the tiny little Zorglings in the creche
> die.
>
> They'll completely devistate humanity in a ragged war that will
> last a hundred years. By the time we defeat them, we'll be once again
> trapped in Mother Earth's gravity well.
>
> All won't be lost though since an enterprising young man will discover a
> cache of Z-80 (and glue logic) chip mask drawings etched in gold. Thus
> the 2341st Computer Revolution will be born. This same individual will
> find the glass holodisc archive of http://www.retroarchive.org and CP/M
> will once again flourish in the land.
>
> Bill Gates XXXXXXXIIIV
>
I suspect that whatever OS is used in 10K years, it will have to
be readable by rats, roaches or termites.
Charlie Fox
Chas E. Fox Video Productions
793 Argyle Rd. Windsor ON N8Y 3J8
foxvideo(a)wincom.net
Check out:
The Old Walkerville Virtual Museum at http://skyboom.com/foxvideo
and Camcorder Kindergarten at http://chasfoxvideo.com
11:16 a.m.
New subject: 10,000 years? (was: Data Archival (OT Long)
CD's are mighty shiny. After the holocaust we can trade them as baubles
to the natives.
Or, as one person said:
"When I collect two solar masses of AOL disks, I will use them to detonate
our sun."
I've seen websites dedicated to arts/crafts useing AOL cd's as the main
component. One even made a full-size Christmas tree!
I use dead-burn cd's as coasters, stack them to level a wobbly table.
I think they might make nice reflectors for marking the beginning of a
rural driveway.
You could shave with one as a mirror.
Of course, after a cataclysm we might want to actually READ some of these
disks....
With limited resources, I would guess that a strong magnifier might reveal
the pits for someone to manually transcribe. Then you could go to the
printed RFC's and use an abacus to decode the files and reveal the
contents.
Maybe some selenium, a relay or two, and a voice coil could automate
reading the disk by stamping the 'bits' into a paper tape to be read by
the bank of scribes decoding it.
Or shooting a photo through the cd onto a silver emulsion plate and then
enlarging the prints for easier viewing.
How many scribes does it take to decode a JPEG using the abacus?
In this hypothetical post apocalypse are we talking WaterWorld or are
there lots of spare discretes left working after the EMP/nuclear war,
asteroid, wrath of God hits us?
Rube Goldberg contraptions facinate don't they.
Regards,
Jeff
In <Pine.GSO.4.21.0012121024070.12589-100000(a)lanshark.lanminds.com>om>, on
12/12/00
at 05:16 PM, "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" <cisin(a)xenosoft.com> said:
By then, we may resolve the question on this list.
By then, will MICROS~1 have been broken up?
By then, will we have a RELIABLE OS?
BTW, recent experiments were UNsuccessful at starting
fire using CDs.
Therefore, what good will they be?
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com
THETechnoid(a)home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
8:08 p.m.
New subject: 10,000 years? (was: Data Archival (OT Long)
I've seen websites dedicated to arts/crafts useing
AOL cd's as the main
component. One even made a full-size Christmas tree!
Years ago at the Consumer Electronics Show one of the big CD wholesaler or
manufacturers had a hanging array of reject CDs, a cube of 20x20x20, very
flashy.
7:45 a.m.
Sellam Ismail <foo(a)siconic.com> wrote:
Will there even be computers in 8,000 years? We've only had them for 50,
and look how far they've come. Will they even resemble what we consider
today to be computers? You can make an analogy such as "well, the
Egyptians had papyrus and a stylus, and we have paper and pen, so
computers will be fundamentally the same." But this analogy just does not
apply when it comes to computers and electronics. And then you throw
genetic engineering into the mix and your head starts to hurt.
The biggest problem seems to be "computer readable media".
while I would suspect that the general term of "computer" will
still exist, the thought that someone will have a CD player
or even a machine that can except a IDE hard drive, in even
100 years, is in question. Human readable material continues
to work reasonably well because the basic mechanism hasn't made
changes that would obsolete the media. This isn't true with
computer media. If you are looking for something to put
into a time vault, you need to consider how one would interpret
the information at a later date.
There is no question in my mind that this is not the case that
we are dealing with today. We are dealing with how to propagate
the information into new technologies. It seems to me that the
best way to do that is to move the information to the next
generation of storage media as soon as it becomes available.
The original media should be kept for cross checking and
original reference as long as there is a viable method of retrieving
the information from that media. Keeping it after that point
would be based on historical or other criteria.
In some sense, things like simulators should also need to follow
this same line to ensure that there is a method of interpreting
things like machine code for machines that not only become
obsolete but become non-repairable through lack of parts.
Simulators should be written in as simple a basic ( not BASIC )
language as possible to preserve them. The languages used should
have human readable source code and be easily defined in terms
of simple non-ambiguous operations that would be coded at
the basic machine level with higher level constructs defined
in terms of those low level definitions only. There are only
two languages, that I know of, that are in current use, that could
fit this requirement.
Dwight
3 p.m.
Sellam Ismail skrev:
I don't even think we'll even have a problem by
2038 to tell you the
truth. Look at what's happened to computers since 1962. Now project that
forward 38 more years and try to imagine how pointless this discussion
will have been.
Why do you think that will be the case? We've had computers for 50 years, and
in the last 30, they haven't changed all that much. We've had the
"file"
concept for longer than many of us have cared to live, as well as interactive
and even graphic terminals. It is very possible for a modern machine to
exchange data with a CP/M machine. The same goes for any old UNIX or VAX.
We're right now at a stage where computers are permeating every aspect of
everyday life and society, and though we might not be aware of it, we're
beginning to find ourselves uneasy without heavy computer support. I doubt
that this data dependency will diminish soon. Particularly when you look at
how unimaginative computer business is. How many revolutionary concepts do you
see each day? And how many succeed? I don't see us leaving the basic computing
concepts established in the 70s and 80s in the next decade or two. We might
gain a lot of embedded systems (at least that's what the industry hopes for),
but general purpose computers will surely fulfill an important role in the
future, too.
--
En ligne avec Thor 2.6.
MUSIK G?R MAN AV PLAST OCH KISEL!
TR?D ANV?NDER MAN TILL M?BLER!
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cisin＠xenosoft.com -
donm＠cts.com -
edick＠idcomm.com -
elvey＠hal.com -
eric＠brouhaha.com -
foo＠siconic.com -
foxvideo＠wincom.net -
geneb＠deltasoft.com -
jhfine＠idirect.com -
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