On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, Sam Ismail wrote: If your goal is to teach them about computers, then I think a *much* more rudimentary computer would be more appropriate. A C64 is OK for teaching high-level programming, but start them off with low-level stuff like how a logic gate works, advance to boolean algebra and let them stay there for a long time until they learn how to minimize gates in their own designs, let them build a CPU, microcode it, program it, and *then* move on to the exciting world of BASIC. Forget the C64 for a while, and find that kid a Geniac or something similar. -- Doug

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Sam Ismail wrote: The main reason that *I* am aware of with people being down on BASIC is that it, in a sense, encourages writing spagetti code (probably with the inappropriate use of the GOTO statement.)

Jim Strickland said... | |Actually, that too is a learning experience. You only build one spaghetti |program that you'd like to maintain before you learn the error of your ways. Thank you. In fact, one can program well in any language, including Dartmouth BASIC, FORTRAN IV, even (I am serious) in COBOL. BASIC doesn't encourage spaghetti code. Sloppy attitudes and approaches encourage it. Hacking encourages it. And trust me, BASIC isn't even *close* to raw FORTRAN IV for being easy to spaghettize. ``You are lost in a twisty maze of arithmetic if's all alike''. And yet some of the most elegant, clean, well-structured code I've ever worked with was in FORTRAN IV. -Miles

It is possible to write really bad code in any language, and really good code in any language. I've seen (and written) some very modular stuff in the past in BASIC. I've also seen some of the worst damn stuff written in C or PASCAL... The idea that a language (like C or PASCAL) ensures that you will write good code is a complete falacy... Years ago, BYTE ran some ads for a C distribution (I don't remember the name) in which they compared C ('programming by design') versus BASIC ('programming by trial and error'). The task was to write a program which approximated the drawing of a circle by using straight line segments. The first half of the page demonstrated the program in BASIC, with an example run... whoops, the last line segment doesn't meet up with the first... must be an 'off-by-one' bug in a for statement. So they make the change and run again... whoops, now the last segment crosses the first... (and here's where it gets really annoying)... "It seems you can't do this in BASIC" ... "But in 'C'..." and everything works right the first time. Anyone with a bit of sense would look at the algorithm used... Lo and behold, the algorithms were different. If the one used for the BASIC example had been used for C, and vice versa, the ad could have shown that BASIC could get it right first time while C probably couldn't have done it... I'm sorry, but I truly believe that anyone who looks down on BASIC because the code *can* be spaghetti-code cannot be considered a real programmer in my book... My US$.02 Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

Marvin wrote: I disagree, because my first language was BASIC on the C-64, and I had no 'proper' instruction (besides some books which everyone has access to), but I do not write spaghetti code. This is mostly because I like efficient code where every line makes sense. If I start off on the wrong foot, it is much more difficult to write the program at all. I must admit, I haven't had much experience with early BASICs that had no FOR...NEXT statements.

Agreed. But coming out of DEC with Basic Plus and other DEC basics makes you forget just how bad the A$ environment is. My worst, er first experience with Basic was an HP2000. I liked computers but found the ASR33 a pain. Next course was Fortran on IBM punch cards. Ugh. Working with the single character variable names was a pain. Editing was awful on the teletypes. (retype line number and reenter). I'd have killed for EDT line mode. I found that DEC's basics were quite nice to work with. DEC also had a nice development environment as well with good tools. Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter(a)shell.monmouth.com | pechter(a)pechter.ddns.org

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At 02:34 PM 1/12/99 -0800, Fred wrote: Perhaps not. This I have, a full up multimedia capable machine with large quantities of reference material. We've got both the paper WorldBook and the CD version (fewer pictures!) and we've done our share of research on the web using this tool. But now she wants to know "how it works" and "how can I make it do Y" kinds of things. The challenge of developing a curriculum for her is isolating the concepts. Teaching programming without teaching file systems etc. The PDP-8 is wonderful for demonstrating the lower level concepts of "this signal turns on this this other thing when which causes this action." But that low a level can get in the way when learning more generic programming concepts. (And I surely wouldn't use it for teaching her Subroutines! :-) As someone else pointed out the C64's advantage is its "instant on" capability. The best analogy I can come up with is a whiteboard with execution access. Type in a bubble sort and see it in action. It also has rudimentary color graphics capability so there are interesting places to explore that keep the learning "fresh." One of the more fun things I did was to demonstrate programming to her first grade class. We wrote a "Towers of Hanoi" solver by giving each child an "instruction" which had a picture and words for what that child was to do (things like "move the top disk on the left to the middle pole, "if the disk on the right pole is bigger, skip the next child", etc). Then we "programmed" the computer by lining up the children and had them walk up to the towers, execute their instruction and then get back in line. It was fun because none of them could solve it on their own, and yet they all thought their individual instructions were "dopey." But when we had the program right, the problem "solved" itself. Lots of fun. I agree, although PASCAL has its place here as well. I _wish_ I had something like a C64 that had the original Oak (now called Java) in it. One of the things that got deleted was a sort of "immediate" mode that let you write code "outside" of any object in the environment and that became the "application." When FreeGate goes public and I'm a zillionaire I'll build that box :-) The interesting thing here is that she can easily distinguish between the "teaching" computer and the "tool" computer. I've got a Win95 system I built out of my scrap pile that provides all the tools. Its the lab computers that I'm working on. In my case FreeBSD disks simply because I'm very familiar with the development of that system and know most of the design decisions that went into doing things various ways. (I get a lot of 'but why do it _that_ way dad?' kinds of questions.) My current plan is: Topic Lab Equipment Computer Fundamentals PDP-8 with some custom I/O hardware. Programming Fundamentals I C64 + TV Introduction to Robotics Lego Mindstorms Programming Fundamentals FreeBSD system Introduction to Graphics I C64 + TV Introduction to Graphics II FreeBSD system with custom graphics card If we get through all of this we'd probably pick one of operating systems, language design, or databases to do next. One of the interesting thing I've discovered about children is that their lack of preconcieved notions allows them to get right to the material. Same with spoken languages, my three year old is picking up spanish from a live in college student. I asked her how she knew what to say in spanish and her answer was appropriately "That's how Marta would have said it." --Chuck

On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: Gee, I wish I was your daughter. My dad's idea of cirriculum was: Topic Lab Equipment Raking Leaves Rake Mowing Lawns Lawnmower Pulling Weeds Hands Killing woodland mammals Rifle Blasting avian creatures from sky Shotgun I had to learn everything else on my own :) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98]

Sam Ismail wrote: Those last two items (rifle and shotgun) I had to learn on my own. -- Ward Griffiths <mailto:gram@cnct.com> <http://www.cnct.com/home/gram/> WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.