27 Feb
2002
27 Feb
'02
12:18 p.m.
After my recent RX02 problems, I've decided I'd like to add a SCSI
controller in my 11/23, and keep my programs on a hard disk. What Q-bus
controllers will work with RT-11? What's the minimum version of RT-11
that I can get by with? Can I use any disk, or does it have to be
something in particular?
Thanks,
Tom
27 Feb
27 Feb
12:52 p.m.
After my recent RX02 problems, I've decided
I'd like to add a SCSI
controller in my 11/23, and keep my programs on a hard disk. What Q-bus
controllers will work with RT-11? What's the minimum version of RT-11
that I can get by with? Can I use any disk, or does it have to be
something in particular?
Is it a /23 or a /23+? I'm not sure how the various controllers might
handle an 18-bit system vs. a 22-bit system. For RT-11 you need 5.x for
MSCP (disk) support and 5.4 for TMSCP (tape) support.
I run my /73 with a Viking QDT SCSI controller, and have a RRD-42 CD-ROM,
TZ30 Tape drive, and two SCSI HD's in removable trays attached to it. Works
great under both 5.4 and 5.6.
ane
2:17 p.m.
I have a regular 11/23 in a BA11 11/03 box, which I believe to be 18-bit.
Its a collection of pieces from different systems as many PDPs are I'd
imagine.
Will existing compiled Fortran programs from version 4 run okay and
without recompiling on 5.x? I don't have the source.
On Wed, 27 Feb 2002, Zane H. Healy wrote:
Is it a /23 or a /23+? I'm not sure how the
various controllers might
handle an 18-bit system vs. a 22-bit system. For RT-11 you need 5.x for
MSCP (disk) support and 5.4 for TMSCP (tape) support.
I run my /73 with a Viking QDT SCSI controller, and have a RRD-42 CD-ROM,
TZ30 Tape drive, and two SCSI HD's in removable trays attached to it. Works
great under both 5.4 and 5.6.
ane
2:49 p.m.
I have a regular 11/23 in a BA11 11/03 box, which I
believe to be 18-bit.
Its a collection of pieces from different systems as many PDPs are I'd
imagine.
Will existing compiled Fortran programs from version 4 run okay and
without recompiling on 5.x? I don't have the source.
OK, what I see that concerns me is the fact you're using a 11/03 box.
Unless I'm mistaken the 11/03 was only Q16, which has me wondering how
you're even running a 11/23 CPU, which should be Q18, in it (it's possible
someone upgraded the backplane to be 18-bit).
I took a quick look and it looks like CMD made SCSI controllers that would
work in either a Q18 or Q22 system. It also looks like Viking controllers
only work in a Q22 system.
As for your Fortran programs, I would think they would work on V5.x, but am
not sure. The best people on the list to know about that would be Megan or
Jerome.
Is this a hobbyist system, or is it a production system?
Zane
3:52 p.m.
On Wed, 27 Feb 2002, Zane H. Healy wrote:
OK, what I see that concerns me is the fact you're
using a 11/03 box.
Unless I'm mistaken the 11/03 was only Q16, which has me wondering how
you're even running a 11/23 CPU, which should be Q18, in it (it's possible
someone upgraded the backplane to be 18-bit).
It did have the M8186 11/23 CPU in the 11/03 chassis when I got it, not
that that means anything. I did change the memory module to a 128KW
MSV11-LK.
There's an older Q-bus VAX system at the University that will probably be
taken out of service soon, and there's a chance I can grab its SCSI
controller (I'm not sure exactly what it has, but I know it has one).
I took a quick look and it looks like CMD made SCSI
controllers that would
work in either a Q18 or Q22 system. It also looks like Viking controllers
only work in a Q22 system.
As for your Fortran programs, I would think they would work on V5.x, but am
not sure. The best people on the list to know about that would be Megan or
Jerome.
Is this a hobbyist system, or is it a production system?
Its mostly a hobbyist system, in that I paid for it personally, and if it
weren't for it being a hobby, I would have given up a long time ago. :)
Its kind of hard to explain, but I'll try. I work for a university on a
National Science Foundation funded project that provides satellite
communication to scientists at the geographic south pole, and a few other
assorted places in the Antarctic. Normal commericial satellite
communication isn't affordable to the scientific community, so the
operation uses old satellites (ranging in launch year from 1967 to 1977)
that are no longer usable for their original purpose, such as imager
failures in the case of the older GOES satellites. We also use ATS-3, the
oldest continously operating satellite in the world. It took the first
color pictures of the earth from space in 1967. Also, being low on
station keeping fuel, which causes the orbit to drift north and south of
the equator, so that it its no longer geostationary is another reason.
That's good for us, because at geostationary orbit, you can only see down
to about 80 degrees south. With the drift, you can see the poles for
about 6 hours a day.
In order to perform maneuvers (fire the jets) on a spin-stabilized
satellite, you have to synchronize your commanding with a reference point
(usually the sun). If you were in the 1970s and wanted to design a
reliable "portable" computing system for each launch site required around
the world, what would you use? You guessed it, a PDP-11. The software
was on an RX02 along with RT-11.
Anyway, we built our own command equipment awhile ago with a small
microcontroller. This was intended for commanding where the timing isn't
critical, such as turning things on and off, switching sensors, etc. The
attitude of a spinning satellite precesses slowly over time, and you
correct it by firing jets in a synchronized manner, which we can't do with
our equipment. The attitude starting to be off enough to where it needs
to be corrected. Lacking the funding to develop something new, combined
with everyone assuming I wouldn't be able to revive this system, I decided
to rebuilt it on my own. (We only had a few pieces of the original system
that attached to the DMA and PIO interfaces, which didn't work, and none
of the PDP equipment). It was working pretty well until the RX02
incident. I was hoping I could scrape up a SCSI controller from somewhere
around the university, so I could have a longer-term storage option. So
in the next couple of months, it will get used for a "production" purpose,
but then it won't be needed for quite awhile.
5:17 p.m.
--- Tom Leffingwell <tom(a)sba.miami.edu> wrote:
...I work for a university on a National Science
Foundation funded
project that provides satellite communication to scientists at the
geographic south pole...
Funny we should meet here... I've personally benefited from your work...
I worked at McMurdo from 1995 through 1997, and was at Pole for week
at the end of the 1995-1996 season. Among other things, I rebuilt
the SPARC5 that they used for burning CD-ROMs.
That's good for us, because at geostationary
orbit, you can only see down
to about 80 degrees south. With the drift, you can see the poles for
about 6 hours a day.
Yep... for the rest of the audience, the satellite comms at McMurdo (78S)
use a dish that's only pointed a few degrees above parallel with the
earth... they had to excavate in front of the disk so it could tip that
far down - the stand was designed for temperate latitudes.
(usually the sun). If you were in the 1970s and
wanted to design a
reliable "portable" computing system for each launch site required around
the world, what would you use? You guessed it, a PDP-11. The software
was on an RX02 along with RT-11...
I would love to help you with your work, but I'm not sure how. I do not
own a Qbus SCSI controller, but I have programmed under RT-11
professionally (as have others here) and I do have a pile of Qbus stuff
(as do others here). I'll drop you a note off-line.
-ethan
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6:48 p.m.
It did have the M8186 11/23 CPU in the 11/03 chassis
when I got it, not
that that means anything. I did change the memory module to a 128KW
MSV11-LK.
My guess is that the chassis has either got a different or upgraded
backplane. Is there any kind of a number on the backplane itself that you
can easily see?
OTOH, maybe I'm misremembering and a Q18 CPU will work in a Q16 backplane.
There's an older Q-bus VAX system at the University
that will probably be
taken out of service soon, and there's a chance I can grab its SCSI
controller (I'm not sure exactly what it has, but I know it has one).
Hopefully it's a CMD controller.
Its kind of hard to explain, but I'll try. I work
for a university on a
Actually it makes perfect sense.
to be corrected. Lacking the funding to develop
something new, combined
with everyone assuming I wouldn't be able to revive this system, I decided
to rebuilt it on my own. (We only had a few pieces of the original system
that attached to the DMA and PIO interfaces, which didn't work, and none
of the PDP equipment). It was working pretty well until the RX02
Are you using specific Q-Bus boards to interface with the equipment. This
could be a problem if you decided to try and move to a Q22 system.
incident. I was hoping I could scrape up a SCSI
controller from somewhere
around the university, so I could have a longer-term storage option. So
in the next couple of months, it will get used for a "production" purpose,
but then it won't be needed for quite awhile.
Something else you might want to look for is an ESDI controller. It would
allow you to use slightly more reliable disks, though SCSI is the best.
The important thing is to stay away from MFM disks!
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
7:46 p.m.
--- "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh(a)aracnet.com> wrote:
If it's a BA-11N, it _has_ BDAL16 and BDAL17 bussed.
If money is no object or people are throwing hardware at you for free,
I would agree... for long-term maintanability, I'd endorse SCSI, too.
Wish a CMD controller would drop in my lap.
It did have the
M8186 11/23 CPU in the 11/03 chassis when I got it...
My guess is that the chassis has either got a different or upgraded
backplane. Is there any kind of a number on the backplane itself
that
you can easily see?
That would be best for ident purposes.
OTOH, maybe I'm misremembering and a Q18 CPU will
work in a Q16
backplane.
It will, but only to 28KW.
...Lacking the
funding to develop something new...
Something else you might want to look for is an
ESDI controller. It
would allow you to use slightly more reliable disks, though SCSI is the
best. The important thing is to stay away from MFM disks!
Here, I have to disagree. Depending on the nature of the project, it
might be just fine. If you don't need more than about 80Mb of total
disk space, or if you are graduting up from floppies and even 20Mb seems
large, MFM is fine. If you have, as was mentioned, lack of budgetary
support, an MFM controller, like a DEC RQDX[123] and an ST225 is about
the cheapest solution I know of - drives and controllers are available
for haul-it-away prices. No, the MFM drives aren't going to last forever,
but for the cost, a second drive is no big deal, either. True, a 3.5"
SCSI drive of low (sub-1GB) capacity is also a "haul-it-away" item, but
the controller sure isn't.
Abstractly speaking, if the need to run MSCP isn't an issue and cost is,
MFM may be the best way to go for any PDP-11 project. Personally, where
it falls short for me is wanting to play with PDP-11 UNIX - to go with
an MSCP controller, recent patches aside, MSCP requires 2.11BSD and a Split
I&D processor unless I've misremembered something. If I'm going to play
with 2.11BSD, I want a disk larger than an ST-225 (RD31) or even a
Maxtor XT2190 (RD54) - I'd like to have a couple-hundred meg so I don't
feel like I have to scrub the disk of logfiles every few hours. I've
installed 2.9BSD on an 11/24 with 2xRL02. It was a tight fit and I
don't think there was room for sources and to rebuild to kernel without
deleting lots of stuff first.
I'm just saying that MFM drives aren't always the wrong answer on a
PDP-11... it depends on what your criteria are.
-ethan
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28 Feb
28 Feb
3:36 p.m.
New subject: Thursday mini-haul
Ran out to University of Michigan Property Disposition yesterday. First the
interesting things I didn't buy:
A bunch of DECServers in - A PDP/11 RACK. Some dunderhead stripped the rack
to make room for DECServer/200s.
which, in all honesty, are probably faster. The facia was beautiful,
vintage 70's computer.
"PDP 11/<don't remember> Digital Equipment Corporation, Maynard
Massachusets"
An empty HP/3000 Rack.
A few RS/6000's, one almost complete.
A couple of 8x4.3GB RAID racks, fully populated for $300 each. Almost worth
it.
A DEC R400X pedistal storage expansion unit.
A bunch of SBUS ethernet cards. 100Base-T I'm assuming, they were third
party.
A couple of wierd Xylinx boards with Intel 960 processors on them. I'm
assuming really beasty SCSI controllers cause of the SCSI high density type
jack on the back of them.
A few HP FDDI cards.
A bunch of ISA SCSI Cards, medium-old brand Adaptec.
Here's what I made off with:
Cabletron 24-port ethernet hub w/ fiber uplink.
Sun 1.3GB External SCSI drive box, the one in IPC/IPX form factor. Now I can
finally test those ELC's I picked up :)
Ann Arbor Audio Stereo Computer Mixer <-- Cool gadget, mixes computer and
two other audio sources
into an RCA line out and two headphone jacks.
Dell Dimension P-90 <-- To run BeOS. Slow, but a whopping 96MB of RAM. Not
bad for $25.
A few 2MB 30-pin SIMMs <-- To upgrade a few compact Macs I have.
VMEBus PrestoServe Board <-- For my Sun 4 which I'm still working on. Guess
it's gonna run SunOS :)
iMac 333 <-- Got it CHEAP. Gonna be a friend's internet computer. Nice
upgrade from his Performa 475.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh(a)aracnet.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:48 AM
Subject: Re: SCSI options for PDP 11/23
decided
somewhere
It did have the
M8186 11/23 CPU in the 11/03 chassis when I got it, not
that that means anything. I did change the memory module to a 128KW
MSV11-LK.
My guess is that the chassis has either got a different or upgraded
backplane. Is there any kind of a number on the backplane itself that you
can easily see?
OTOH, maybe I'm misremembering and a Q18 CPU will work in a Q16 backplane.
There's an older Q-bus VAX system at the
University that will probably be
taken out of service soon, and there's a chance I can grab its SCSI
controller (I'm not sure exactly what it has, but I know it has one).
Hopefully it's a CMD controller.
Its kind of hard to explain, but I'll try. I
work for a university on a
Actually it makes perfect sense.
>to be corrected. Lacking the funding to develop something new, combined
>with everyone assuming I wouldn't be able to revive this system, I >to rebuilt it on my own. (We only had a few
pieces of the original
system
that attached
to the DMA and PIO interfaces, which didn't work, and none
of the PDP equipment). It was working pretty well until the RX02
Are you using specific Q-Bus boards to interface with the equipment. This
could be a problem if you decided to try and move to a Q22 system.
>incident. I was hoping I could scrape up a SCSI controller from >around the university, so I could have a
longer-term storage option. So
>in the next couple of months, it will get used for a "production"
purpose,
but then it
won't be needed for quite awhile.
Something else you might want to look for is an ESDI controller. It would
allow you to use slightly more reliable disks, though SCSI is the best.
The important thing is to stay away from MFM disks!
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
2 Mar
2 Mar
2:40 p.m.
Tom Leffingwell wrote:
On Wed, 27 Feb
2002, Zane H. Healy wrote:
OK, what I see that concerns me is the fact you're using a 11/03 box.
Unless I'm mistaken the 11/03 was only Q16, which has me wondering how
you're even running a 11/23 CPU, which should be Q18, in it (it's possible
someone upgraded the backplane to be 18-bit).
It did have the M8186 11/23 CPU in
the 11/03 chassis when I got it, not
that that means anything. I did change the memory module to a 128KW
MSV11-LK. There's an older Q-bus VAX system at the
University that will probably be
taken out of service soon, and there's a chance I can grab its SCSI
controller (I'm not sure exactly what it has, but I know it has one).
You should be aware that a CQD 220/TM is no longer available and that
manuals are difficult to obtain. Ask on the list and we can help if that is
the version of the host adapter. If possible, get your dibs in early so
that you can grab it when it becomes available.
I took a quick
look and it looks like CMD made SCSI controllers that would
work in either a Q18 or Q22 system. It also looks like Viking controllers
only work in a Q22 system.
As for your Fortran programs, I would think they would work on V5.x, but am
not sure. The best people on the list to know about that would be Megan or
Jerome.
Is this a hobbyist system, or is it a production system?
Its mostly a hobbyist
system, in that I paid for it personally, and if it
weren't for it being a hobby, I would have given up a long time ago. :) From what I know of FORTRAN IV programs and V4.00 vs
V5.00
compatibility, you are VERY unlikely to have a problem. Assume for
now that you won't - which is an assumption I rarely make in any
circumstances. That means that I have so rarely found a problem
that for most cases it is just not an issue.
Your bigger problem will be to transfer the files to a SCSI hard drive.
I will volunteer to put V5.03 on a SCSI hard drive for you if no one
else is available in the US. Since I am in Toronto, crossing the border
could be a complication. But ANYONE else who is able to write
to a SCSI hard drive on either a real PDP-11 or anyone who has a
Full version of E11 can also do that for you. A SCSI hard drive is a
SCSI hard drive on any system. Under E11, I can connect the same
2 GByte ST32550N drive from a real PDP-11 to a header on the
SCSI cable to an Adaptec AHA2940AU PCI host adapter. I do
need to "trick" the software by having a Sony SMO S501 powered
up on the same SCSI ID when I first boot Windows98 and load
ASPI8DOS.SYS for E11, but after I turn off the power on the
Sony SMO S501, I can power on the ST32550N (the SCSI cable
may NEED to be plugged in first - I always do) hard drive and
E11 is very happy to use the ST2550N as an RT-11 device.
Its kind of hard to explain, but I'll try. I work
for a university on a
National Science Foundation funded project that provides satellite
communication to scientists at the geographic south pole, and a few other
assorted places in the Antarctic. Normal commericial satellite
communication isn't affordable to the scientific community, so the
operation uses old satellites (ranging in launch year from 1967 to 1977)
that are no longer usable for their original purpose, such as imager
failures in the case of the older GOES satellites. We also use ATS-3, the
oldest continously operating satellite in the world. It took the first
color pictures of the earth from space in 1967. Also, being low on
station keeping fuel, which causes the orbit to drift north and south of
the equator, so that it its no longer geostationary is another reason.
That's good for us, because at geostationary orbit, you can only see down
to about 80 degrees south. With the drift, you can see the poles for
about 6 hours a day.
In order to perform maneuvers (fire the jets) on a spin-stabilized
satellite, you have to synchronize your commanding with a reference point
(usually the sun). If you were in the 1970s and wanted to design a
reliable "portable" computing system for each launch site required around
the world, what would you use? You guessed it, a PDP-11. The software
was on an RX02 along with RT-11.
Anyway, we built our own command equipment awhile ago with a small
microcontroller. This was intended for commanding where the timing isn't
critical, such as turning things on and off, switching sensors, etc. The
attitude of a spinning satellite precesses slowly over time, and you
correct it by firing jets in a synchronized manner, which we can't do with
our equipment. The attitude starting to be off enough to where it needs
to be corrected. Lacking the funding to develop something new, combined
with everyone assuming I wouldn't be able to revive this system, I decided
to rebuilt it on my own. (We only had a few pieces of the original system
that attached to the DMA and PIO interfaces, which didn't work, and none
of the PDP equipment). It was working pretty well until the RX02
incident. I was hoping I could scrape up a SCSI controller from somewhere
around the university, so I could have a longer-term storage option. So
in the next couple of months, it will get used for a "production" purpose,
but then it won't be needed for quite awhile.
I have never quite head your complete situation. Anything else I can help
with? If anyone could provide a loan CQD 220/TM for a few months,
might that help? SCSI hard drives are not the problem - the ST32550N
cost only $ US 10.00 and plenty of others are also available.
I can't understand how funding can be so tight that a project which uses
a $ 100 million satellite can't find the support for a PDP-11 system
at this point. Doe someone nearby have a BA23 box that they can
provide you. That will be a problem to some extent since you should
also have at least an M8189 (quad 11/23 with boot ROMs). But
I would be willing to send that to you if more memory would also
help. Otherwise, if 1/4 MByte of memory is sufficient, then your
present system with a SCSI host adapter and hard drive will likely
serve you very well.
If you need any more help with RT-11, please ask here at any time.
Sincerely yours,
Jerome Fine
4 Mar
4 Mar
6:51 a.m.
On Sat, 2 Mar 2002, Jerome Fine wrote:
I can't understand how funding can be so tight
that a project which uses
a $ 100 million satellite can't find the support for a PDP-11 system
at this point.
Realize that the program paid $0 for the satellite, since it was already
taken out of service from its original use.
Doe someone nearby have a BA23 box that they can
provide you. That
will be a problem to some extent since you should also have at least
an M8189 (quad 11/23 with boot ROMs). But I would be willing to send
that to you if more memory would also help. Otherwise, if 1/4 MByte
of memory is sufficient, then your present system with a SCSI host
adapter and hard drive will likely serve you very well.
I did manage to pickup an empty Microvax chassis. Its 9-slot, and I'm not
sure exactly what it is. VS31V-A2 is the model number on the back of the
case, but that sounds like a system model number. Anyway, the 128KW of
memory I have is plenty for what I need. Do I have to use the M8189 with
this chassis or can I use my M8186?
Thanks again,
Tom
5 Mar
5 Mar
8:17 a.m.
--- Tom Leffingwell <tom(a)sba.miami.edu> wrote:
On Sat, 2 Mar 2002, Jerome Fine wrote:
> I can't understand how funding can be so tight that a project which
> uses a $ 100 million satellite can't find the support for a PDP-11
> system at this point.
I used to work for these guys (well... their predecessors, but the same
program and source of funding). I understand how it's possible. The
entire U.S. Antarctic Program, research grants, equipment, fuel, food,
building supplies, salaries, boat and aircraft rental, offices,
*everything*
is around $200M USD per year. For a program that employs hundreds of
people in several countries over several continents, they do a decent
job of doing things on the cheap. There are times, though, that individual
decisions and/or priorities seem completely whacked.
I did manage to pickup an empty Microvax chassis. Its
9-slot, and I'm
not sure exactly what it is. VS31V-A2 is the model number on the back
of the case, but that sounds like a system model number.
Some kind of VAXstation 3100, I'd wager. Too new for my expertise. ;-)
Do I have to use the M8189 with this chassis or can I
use my M8186?
No. Either CPU will do. I'm sure you can find docs, but if your box
is like a BA-23, the top three slots are probably "CD" slots so that
the right half doesn't need Qbus granting. It's been done here before
in ASCII art, but the grant chain for a BA-23 looks like this...
AB CD
+--------------------+
1 I | I
I | ||||||| I <- "CD interconnect"
2 I | I
I | ||||||| I <- "CD interconnect"
3 I | I
I | I
4 I +----------+ I
I | I
5 I +----------+ I
I | I
6 I +----------+ I
I | I
7 I +----------+ I
I | I
8 I +----------+ I
I | I
9 I +----------+ I
+--------------------+
What I'm trying to communicate is the dual nature of the backplane - the
first three slots have the "CD interconnect" on the "CD" slots - the
uVAX-I
CPU and the RLV11 disk controller depend on them. I don't know what else
does. In a MicroVAX (past the -I), the memory does *not* sit on the Qbus.
It sits on the PMI (Private Memory Interconnect). I believe this is the
case for later PDP-11s (11/83, etc.) as well. The memory cards go in a
quad slot below the CPU and only the left half of them sit on the Qbus.
If you have any dual-height Qbus memory for your KDF-11, it goes only
on the left side; the right side stays empty, but only at the top of
the box, not further down.
Peripherals can go anywhere there's a Qbus slot. I don't recall if
there's an official rule that memory *must* go between the CPU and the
first peripheral, but it is at least the convention. If you aquire a later
CPU, like from an 11/53 with RAM and serial onboard, you could conceivably
have that board in slot 1, a SCSI card or other disk controller in the left
side of slot 2 and that's it. If you were willing to go with a TU-58 as
the only mass storage device, all you really need, then, is a way to power
the board, and perhaps terminate the bus, but that's another project.
Again, check the docs for your particular enclosure. My "in head"
knowledge
of PDP-11s and Qbus VAXen kinda trickles down for stuff newer than about
1989. We stopped buying new hardware about that point and I spent the next
five years fixing the old stuff.
-ethan
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12 Mar
12 Mar
6:58 a.m.
New subject: CD-ROM on RT-11?
While waiting and hoping for my SCSI controller, I was curious if
anyone knows if its possible to burn a CD-ROM of the OS and my program, to
boot my 11/23 from a SCSI CD-ROM. I would assume the controller/OS would
just see this as a regular disk. The only problem I can think of would be
if something tried to write to the disk, which obviously wouldn't work.
My program doesn't write any files to the disk. As far as I can tell, the
OS doesn't either. Has anyone ever tried this?
I was mainly thinking CD-ROM would be nice option because if the
drive fails, the data is unaffected, and its easy and inexpensive to copy
CDs.
Thanks,
Tom
7:46 a.m.
New subject: CD-ROM on RT-11?
While waiting and hoping for my SCSI controller, I
was curious if
anyone knows if its possible to burn a CD-ROM of the OS and my program, to
boot my 11/23 from a SCSI CD-ROM. I would assume the controller/OS would
just see this as a regular disk. The only problem I can think of would be
if something tried to write to the disk, which obviously wouldn't work.
My program doesn't write any files to the disk. As far as I can tell, the
OS doesn't either. Has anyone ever tried this?
I was mainly thinking CD-ROM would be nice option because if the
drive fails, the data is unaffected, and its easy and inexpensive to copy
CDs.
Yes, it is possible. The real trick is finding a SCSI CD-ROM that will work
with your SCSI Adapter! In my case I'm using a Viking QDT with a DEC RRD-42
drive (I think that's the right drive, it's the one that uses standard
caddies). I feel a lot safer being able to restore from CD's rather than
old flakey TK50's. Basically you just burn a disk image of a HD that's been
built on that controller to a CD-R. I've done this for RT-11, RSX-11M, and
RSX-11M+. Of the three RT-11 complains the least about being on CD. The
two RSX's I tried *really* don't like it, but appear to come up enough that
I should be able to copy them to a real HD.
Zane
11:42 a.m.
New subject: CD-ROM on RT-11?
On Tue, 12 Mar 2002, Zane H. Healy wrote:
Yes, it is possible. The real trick is finding a SCSI
CD-ROM that will work
with your SCSI Adapter! In my case I'm using a Viking QDT with a DEC RRD-42
drive (I think that's the right drive, it's the one that uses standard
caddies).
Yeah, the RRD40 was the one with the special DEC caddies where you never
had to touch the CD. I think I still have one somewhere. RRD42 used the
standard caddies, and was double speed I believe. RRD43 was the one where
the disk snapped into it, and the RRD45 was the 4x speed tray one, and the
RRD46 was the 12x speed tray one. I'll have to see what I have. Its more
than likely going to be an RRD43 though, but I would think it would work.
I feel a lot safer being able to restore from CD's
rather than old
flakey TK50's. Basically you just burn a disk image of a HD that's
been built on that controller to a CD-R. I've done this for RT-11,
RSX-11M, and RSX-11M+. Of the three RT-11 complains the least about
being on CD. The two RSX's I tried *really* don't like it, but appear
to come up enough that I should be able to copy them to a real HD.
I may give this a shot then. I think its my best option.
-Tom
15 Mar
15 Mar
10:27 a.m.
New subject: CD-ROM on RT-11?
Tom Leffingwell wrote:
On Tue, 12 Mar
2002, Zane H. Healy wrote:
Yes, it is possible. The real trick is finding a SCSI CD-ROM that will work
with your SCSI Adapter! In my case I'm using a Viking QDT with a DEC RRD-42
drive (I think that's the right drive, it's the one that uses standard
caddies).
Yeah, the RRD40 was the one with the special DEC caddies where you
never
had to touch the CD. I think I still have one somewhere. RRD42 used the
standard caddies, and was double speed I believe. RRD43 was the one where
the disk snapped into it, and the RRD45 was the 4x speed tray one, and the
RRD46 was the 12x speed tray one. I'll have to see what I have. Its more
than likely going to be an RRD43 though, but I would think it would work. I feel a lot
safer being able to restore from CD's rather than old
flakey TK50's. Basically you just burn a disk image of a HD that's
been built on that controller to a CD-R. I've done this for RT-11,
RSX-11M, and RSX-11M+. Of the three RT-11 complains the least about
being on CD. The two RSX's I tried *really* don't like it, but appear
to come up enough that I should be able to copy them to a real HD.
I may give this
a shot then. I think its my best option. from an ESDI hard drive which is in WRITE PROTECT
mode (a hardware selection via a jumper), the only problem
I see is being able to read the first 64 blocks of the CD on
partition zero - and of course setting up an RT-11 partition
starting at block zero of the CD.
Has anyone solved these two problems?
Sincerely yours,
Jerome Fine
18 Mar
18 Mar
5:55 a.m.
New subject: CD-ROM on RT-11?
On Fri, 15 Mar 2002, Jerome Fine wrote:
Also, while the normal ISO file structure probably
will NOT
easily allow (if at all) RT-11 partitions to be written on 65536
block boundaries, for RT-11, that is essential.
Why would you be using ISO? My plan was just to dd copy (with unix
cdrecord) a bootable RT-11 SCSI disk to the CD. Assuming that if I had a
bootable RT-11 SCSI disk as /dev/rz4c on a unix machine, with cdrecord, I
would just do this:
dd if=/dev/rz4c ibs=64k obs=64k | cdrecord -dev 3,5,0 -speed=2 -
Will this work?
This week, I'm going to hook up my remaining RX02 drive to a VMS machine
and copy the data off the RX02's. At that point, all I should need is an
image of v5.03 of RT-11 with my program, which I can then burn to a CD.
I'm still trying to scrape up a SCSI controller, but other than that, I
think I should be okay.
Anyone see any problems with this?
Thanks,
Tom
6:43 a.m.
New subject: CD-ROM on RT-11?
On Mon, 18 Mar 2002, Tom Leffingwell wrote:
On Fri, 15 Mar 2002, Jerome Fine wrote:
I've done what I think are comparable burns with AIX install CDs and
MKCD (bootable CD backup; mksysb for CD-writers) disks, as well as
OpenVMS install CDs. As long as I set the blocksize to a factor of
EVERY blocksize the filesystem uses, it works very well. For instance,
the AIX BOS install CD has a 32k .toc block, apparently _between_ the
boot record and file blocks. The only thing that works is "bs=1"....
AFAICT, cdrecord cares not at all what it writes to disk.
Doc
Also, while the normal ISO file structure
probably will NOT
easily allow (if at all) RT-11 partitions to be written on 65536
block boundaries, for RT-11, that is essential.
Why would you be using ISO? My plan was just to dd copy (with unix
cdrecord) a bootable RT-11 SCSI disk to the CD. Assuming that if I had a
bootable RT-11 SCSI disk as /dev/rz4c on a unix machine, with cdrecord, I
would just do this:
dd if=/dev/rz4c ibs=64k obs=64k | cdrecord -dev 3,5,0 -speed=2 -
Will this work?
8:18 a.m.
New subject: CD-ROM on RT-11?
Why would you be using ISO? My plan was just to dd
copy (with unix
cdrecord) a bootable RT-11 SCSI disk to the CD. Assuming that if I had a
bootable RT-11 SCSI disk as /dev/rz4c on a unix machine, with cdrecord, I
would just do this:
dd if=/dev/rz4c ibs=64k obs=64k | cdrecord -dev 3,5,0 -speed=2 -
Will this work?
Basically this is what I've done. Though I think I had the block size
seriously cranked down (no idea if that matters). I first went to an image
file, and then I FTP'd it to my Mac and burned it to CD-R (I didn't have a
CD-R attached at the time).
This week, I'm going to hook up my remaining RX02
drive to a VMS machine
and copy the data off the RX02's. At that point, all I should need is an
image of v5.03 of RT-11 with my program, which I can then burn to a CD.
Stuff your RX02 images in an RL02 image using PUTR.COM, then you just need
to get the RL02 image onto your RT-11 system (I have TCP/IP working on my
PDP-11/73 so I just FTP it).
Zane
21 Mar
21 Mar
5:40 p.m.
New subject: CD-ROM on RT-11?
Zane H. Healy wrote:
Why would you
be using ISO? My plan was just to dd copy (with unix
cdrecord) a bootable RT-11 SCSI disk to the CD. Assuming that if I had a
bootable RT-11 SCSI disk as /dev/rz4c on a unix machine, with cdrecord, I
would just do this:
dd if=/dev/rz4c ibs=64k obs=64k | cdrecord -dev 3,5,0 -speed=2 -
Will this work?
Basically this is what I've done. Though I think I had the
block size
seriously cranked down (no idea if that matters). I first went to an image
file, and then I FTP'd it to my Mac and burned it to CD-R (I didn't have a
CD-R attached at the time). This week,
I'm going to hook up my remaining RX02 drive to a VMS machine
and copy the data off the RX02's. At that point, all I should need is an
image of v5.03 of RT-11 with my program, which I can then burn to a CD.
Stuff your
RX02 images in an RL02 image using PUTR.COM, then you just need
to get the RL02 image onto your RT-11 system (I have TCP/IP working on my
PDP-11/73 so I just FTP it).
3:19 p.m.
New subject: CD-ROM on RT-11?
On Thu, 21 Mar 2002, Jerome H. Fine wrote:
I have been advised to see if I can find a version of
"dd" which will work
under
Windows 98? Is this possible? I realize that I should attempt to use a Unix
system, but I have enough trouble coping with this one which is:
Pentium III 750
Windows 98/Netscape V4.78
E11
There's a DOS "dd.exe" that Sun released awhile back. ISTR I've used
it under 98.
http://soldc.sun.com/support/drivers/tools/
Doc
4:05 p.m.
New subject: CD-ROM on RT-11?
At 11:19 PM 3/21/2002 -0600, Doc wrote:
There's a DOS "dd.exe" that Sun
released awhile back. ISTR I've used
it under 98.
http://soldc.sun.com/support/drivers/tools/
And there's no docs. It says:
J:\>dd
USAGE: J:\DD.EXE [filename] [drive]
Like I should type 'dd Q:driveimage C:' to make a copy of C:
on file Q:driveimage?
- John
4:39 p.m.
New subject: CD-ROM on RT-11?
On Fri, 22 Mar 2002, John Foust wrote:
At 11:19 PM 3/21/2002 -0600, Doc wrote:
It's been a long time since I used it, but IIRC, if I had a floppy I
wanted to image, I'd do
dd A: C:\mydir\floppy.img
Doc
There's a DOS "dd.exe" that Sun
released awhile back. ISTR I've used
it under 98.
http://soldc.sun.com/support/drivers/tools/
And there's no docs. It says:
J:\>dd
USAGE: J:\DD.EXE [filename] [drive]
Like I should type 'dd Q:driveimage C:' to make a copy of C:
on file Q:driveimage?
5:15 p.m.
New subject: CD-ROM on RT-11?
While I can burn a CD with the ISO file structure, I
would very much like
to set up some RT-11 partitions to be used under E11 - like were done
with the RT-11 Freeware CD.
I've been wondering if it's possible to create a image of a MSCP disk (a
RA82 looks to be the best bet) under either E11 or SIMH, and then burn it
to CD-R. I know that RL01 and RL02 images are directly transferable, and
the same looks to be true for RX02 and RX50 images.
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
22 Mar
22 Mar
2:39 a.m.
New subject: CD-ROM on RT-11?
"Zane H. Healy" wrote:
Jerome Fine replies:
As Zane may remember, under Windows 98, when I use the E11 command:
MOUNT DU1: CDROME:
I am able to see almost the whole CD under RT-11 EXCEPT the first
64 decimal (100 octal) blocks. Can anyone comment on this aspect?
To help anyone understand, when I boot RT-11 under E11 under Windows 98,
the CD (having used the above command under E11) will appear as 20 RT-11
partitions of exactly 65536 "blocks" (32 MBytes) each - assuming that the CD
has been written to the highest possible "block". Each "block" will
still be
512
bytes even though on the CD the "sector" size is 2048 bytes. This means that
the CD is divided into partitions of exactly 16384 "sectors" that are 2048
bytes
each - even though RT-11 will see it the other way (i.e. 512 byte blocks).
However, the first 64 blocks of 512 bytes are NOT readable under Windows 98.
I have NEVER had the ability to use the same CD in a CDROM drive under
RT-11 on a real PDP-11, but I get the impression that under that set-up, the
first 64 blocks can be read. In that case, it would even be possible to have
the real PDP-11 do a hardware boot from partition zero is everything on the
CD was set-up correctly. Can anyone comment on this question?
ALSO, I noticed a reference in previous post in respect of the notation
used to write to a specific block on the destination. Tom suggested:
dd if=/dev/rz4c ibs=64k obs=64k | cdrecord -dev 3,5,0 -speed=2 -
but I would appreciate some idea of what the actual syntax is for
the command?
By the way, Doc, I have downloaded the dd.exe file - thank you.
Of course there was no documentation. Perhaps that is available
somewhere as well? Also, can I use this technique to "Burn" a
CD that has already had the first portion written with an ISO file
structure? Was this how Tim Shoppa prepared the RT-11
Freeware CD? If I seem totally confused by the nature of the
questions I am asking, you are correct!
Sincerely yours,
Jerome Fine
--
If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail
address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk
e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be
obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the
'at' with the four digits of the current year.
While I can
burn a CD with the ISO file structure, I would very much like
to set up some RT-11 partitions to be used under E11 - like were done
with the RT-11 Freeware CD.
I've been wondering if it's possible to create
a image of a MSCP disk (a
RA82 looks to be the best bet) under either E11 or SIMH, and then burn it
to CD-R. I know that RL01 and RL02 images are directly transferable, and
the same looks to be true for RX02 and RX50 images.
1:50 a.m.
New subject: CD-ROM on RT-11?
On Fri, 22 Mar 2002, Jerome H. Fine wrote:
By the way, Doc, I have downloaded the dd.exe file -
thank you.
Of course there was no documentation. Perhaps that is available
somewhere as well? Also, can I use this technique to "Burn" a
CD that has already had the first portion written with an ISO file
structure? Was this how Tim Shoppa prepared the RT-11
Freeware CD? If I seem totally confused by the nature of the
questions I am asking, you are correct!
I don't remember ever seeing any documentation for DD.EXE. When I
found it, I think I used a DOS boot disk to test my guesses.
Unfortunately, I don't have a DOS/Win box built right now. In VMWare,
"dd a:\ C:\dos\test.img" lights up the floppy and says "Permission
denied", so I dunno. It may be that this dd.exe is one-way. Image
files to disk, but no reading disks to files.
I'll investigate further this evening.
As far as burning a CD with dd in Windows, I very seriously doubt that
Windows "pipes" are up to it.
Doc
3 Apr
3 Apr
2:52 p.m.
New subject: CD-ROM on RT-11?
On Thu, 21 Mar 2002, Jerome H. Fine wrote:
If you are going to have a CD on your real PDP-11 with
a Qbus host adapter,
then if you want to be able to boot partition zero, I suggest you use the
command:
COPY/BOOT DU0:RT11XM.SYS DU0:
to the partition you are going to place on the CD. MANY other aspects also
need to be considered if it will be a bootable partition.
I've been out of touch with the list for a little while, so I just got
this. Anyway, what would the many aspects be? I was operating on the
assumption that the image I would get or make would have already been
copy/boot'ed so, it should be a bootable image, and if transferred as an
exact image to the CD it should work.
I did finally manage to get my RX02's copied to a VMS machine. The guy
that was helping me (who had the vax/vms machine) was out of town for
awhile. Anyway, we copied an image of a bootable floppy to the VMS
machine, and back to a new floppy, which booted fine with no need to
copy/boot it (since the imagine was already that way). We also used VMS
exchange to may .dsk files. I need to read up a little more on exchange,
but I was thinking if I can work with the .dsk imagines of the ftpable
RT-11 5.03, I should be copy in my program and then copy that to a SCSI
disk, make sure its bootable, and then make an image of it. The .dsk
files seem to be little file on file systems as opposed to just making an
image.
Thanks,
Tom
4 Apr
4 Apr
12:45 a.m.
New subject: CD-ROM on RT-11?
Tom Leffingwell wrote:
On Thu, 21 Mar
2002, Jerome H. Fine wrote:
If you are going to have a CD on your real PDP-11 with a Qbus host adapter,
then if you want to be able to boot partition zero, I suggest you use the
command:
COPY/BOOT DU0:RT11XM.SYS DU0:
to the partition you are going to place on the CD. MANY other aspects also
need to be considered if it will be a bootable partition.
I've been out of
touch with the list for a little while, so I just got
this. Anyway, what would the many aspects be? I was operating on the
assumption that the image I would get or make would have already been
copy/boot'ed so, it should be a bootable image, and if transferred as an
exact image to the CD it should work. I did finally manage to get my RX02's copied to a
VMS machine. The guy
that was helping me (who had the vax/vms machine) was out of town for
awhile. Anyway, we copied an image of a bootable floppy to the VMS
machine, and back to a new floppy, which booted fine with no need to
copy/boot it (since the imagine was already that way). We also used VMS
exchange to may .dsk files. I need to read up a little more on exchange,
but I was thinking if I can work with the .dsk imagines of the ftpable
RT-11 5.03, I should be copy in my program and then copy that to a SCSI
disk, make sure its bootable, and then make an image of it. The .dsk
files seem to be little file on file systems as opposed to just making an
image.
Using Exchange under VMS had certain annoying limitations the last time I
used it. While it was possible to MOUNT the file or the drive as "/FOREIGN",
there was no variable to specify the partition. Thus the default was ONLY
partition zero. It was possible to circumvent this problem with a hard drive
that is also compatible with PDP-11 hardware (the only one I know of
is a SCSI hard drive or a removable media such as Magneto Optical),
but it was not simple.
One problem you may have with the downloaded DEC distribution
of V5.03 of RT-11 is that the boot block zero assumes an RL02
disk drive. If you copy it to an MSCP media, then you must
COPY/BOOT DU0:RT11XM.SYS DU0:
if you are going to do a hardware boot. However, if you can
first boot from the floppy under V5.03 of RT-11 (which also
poses a problem - but not too difficult), then you can do a
soft boot via the command:
BOOT DU0:RT11XM
after which you can then set up the boot blocks via
COPY/BOOT DU0:RT11XM.SYS DU0:
Some information helpful to understand the boot process under RT-11.
(a) In a hardware boot, the primary program in the EPROM is used
to read BLOCK ZERO on the specified disk drive media.
(b) The secondary boot program in BLOCK ZERO is usually
read into memory locations starting at address zero and normally
the first word MUST be the NOP instruction.
(c) In RT-11, the secondary boot program then reads the tertiary
boot program in blocks 2,3,4,5 of the disk drive media and those
4 blocks are sufficient to read the specified monitor and device
driver files.
Sincerely yours,
Jerome Fine
--
If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail
address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk
e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be
obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the
'at' with the four digits of the current year.
6:04 a.m.
New subject: CD-ROM on RT-11?
I think what I'll do at this point is try to make an image with
exchange of v5.03 with my program and all, and copy as well as copy/boot
it to a scsi disk on the vax, and then move it to the PDP. Assuming I get
far enough to get that working, I'd then experiment with getting it on the
CD. I did end up coming across a Viking/QDT SCSI controller, but it
doesn't have bootstrap, and I don't have a BDV11, nor do I have room for
one. I may buy a CQD-200, as they are a lot cheaper than the the CQD-220.
I'd be willing to trade the Viking if anyone wants to swap.
-Tom
On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, Jerome H. Fine wrote:
Since I have used a CD burner for only a month, I was
limited to
the experience of using only the RT-11 Freeware CD from Tim
Shoppa.
Also, since I had only an IDE CDROM drive on a PC, my experience
using the CD was only under E11 under Windows 95 and Windows 98.
I did try and connect a SCSI CDROM drive to a Qbus CQD 220/TM
on a real PDP-11, but was not able to get it to work.
More recently, I think I have been able to copy a file which had been
tested to see if it could be used to successfully boot RT-11 (under E11
under Windows 98). I copied that file to a CD and was able to "View"
all of the blocks on the CD in their correct locations on the CD using
Nero Burning, but I was still not able to boot RT-11 from the CD.
One key aspect to realize is that RT-11 knows only about blocks
that are 512 bytes. Since a CD has a 2048 byte sector, that problem
must be overcome, but is not the only problem. Fortunately, a CD
is a READ ONLY media, so problems associated with writes
don't ever arise. One problem that RT-11 does not have is that
the drive media is not required to be writable, although there will
sometimes be SWAP errors after a program exits - which can be
avoided by using the command
SET EXIT NOSWAP
All I am saying is that a CDROM drive is not a supported drive under
RT-11. And while I am sure that it is possible to write a file which is a
bootable image to a CD, the correct combination of hardware is not
well specified in my mind. If you are actually able to boot RT-11 from
a CD, it would be appreciated if you would tell us the specific hardware
components which you used along with the software version of RT-11.
One aspect to note for V5.03 of RT-11 is that you may be able to read
a non-zero partition, however, the standard DEC distributed MSCP
device driver is UNABLE to boot from a non-zero partition. So if
SET DU1 UNIT=0,PART=1
COPY/BOOT DU1:RT11XM.SYS DU1:
are used with V5.03 of RT-11, it is impossible to boot from DU1:
using the DEC version of the MSCP device driver. This is not a
problem with V5.06 of RT-11, so obviously it is a software bug.
I did finally manage to get my RX02's copied
to a VMS machine. The guy
that was helping me (who had the vax/vms machine) was out of town for
awhile. Anyway, we copied an image of a bootable floppy to the VMS
machine, and back to a new floppy, which booted fine with no need to
copy/boot it (since the imagine was already that way). We also used VMS
exchange to may .dsk files. I need to read up a little more on exchange,
but I was thinking if I can work with the .dsk imagines of the ftpable
RT-11 5.03, I should be copy in my program and then copy that to a SCSI
disk, make sure its bootable, and then make an image of it. The .dsk
files seem to be little file on file systems as opposed to just making an
image.
Using Exchange under VMS had certain annoying limitations the last time I
used it. While it was possible to MOUNT the file or the drive as "/FOREIGN",
there was no variable to specify the partition. Thus the default was ONLY
partition zero. It was possible to circumvent this problem with a hard drive
that is also compatible with PDP-11 hardware (the only one I know of
is a SCSI hard drive or a removable media such as Magneto Optical),
but it was not simple.
One problem you may have with the downloaded DEC distribution
of V5.03 of RT-11 is that the boot block zero assumes an RL02
disk drive. If you copy it to an MSCP media, then you must
COPY/BOOT DU0:RT11XM.SYS DU0:
if you are going to do a hardware boot. However, if you can
first boot from the floppy under V5.03 of RT-11 (which also
poses a problem - but not too difficult), then you can do a
soft boot via the command:
BOOT DU0:RT11XM
after which you can then set up the boot blocks via
COPY/BOOT DU0:RT11XM.SYS DU0:
Some information helpful to understand the boot process under RT-11.
(a) In a hardware boot, the primary program in the EPROM is used
to read BLOCK ZERO on the specified disk drive media.
(b) The secondary boot program in BLOCK ZERO is usually
read into memory locations starting at address zero and normally
the first word MUST be the NOP instruction.
(c) In RT-11, the secondary boot program then reads the tertiary
boot program in blocks 2,3,4,5 of the disk drive media and those
4 blocks are sufficient to read the specified monitor and device
driver files.
Sincerely yours,
Jerome Fine
--
If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail
address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk
e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be
obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the
'at' with the four digits of the current year.
6:37 a.m.
New subject: CD-ROM on RT-11?
I think what I'll do at this point is try to make
an image with
exchange of v5.03 with my program and all, and copy as well as copy/boot
it to a scsi disk on the vax, and then move it to the PDP. Assuming I get
far enough to get that working, I'd then experiment with getting it on the
CD. I did end up coming across a Viking/QDT SCSI controller, but it
doesn't have bootstrap, and I don't have a BDV11, nor do I have room for
one. I may buy a CQD-200, as they are a lot cheaper than the the CQD-220.
I'd be willing to trade the Viking if anyone wants to swap.
While not as fast as the CMD controllers the Viking/QDT is a good solid
controller. What version are the ROMs on it? You need a fairly new
version to support CD-ROMs. This is the controller that I use on my
PDP-11/73 (in fact I just booted off of CD-ROM this morning). I know for a
fact that it will talk to a DEC RRD-42 CD-ROM (which I like since it's a
caddy drive).
Before I got the Quad-Hieght /73, which has onboard bootstrap and console
port) I had a dual-height /73 without the onboard bootstrap. At that point
I had a WQESD ESDI controller in the system whose only purpose was booting
the system and a DLV11J for the console port. I've still got the DLV11J in
there as well as a RQDX3 in the system that's only there to drive the RX50
floppies.
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
7:48 a.m.
New subject: CD-ROM on RT-11?
On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, Zane H. Healy wrote:
While not as fast as the CMD controllers the
Viking/QDT is a good solid
controller. What version are the ROMs on it? You need a fairly new
version to support CD-ROMs. This is the controller that I use on my
PDP-11/73 (in fact I just booted off of CD-ROM this morning). I know for a
fact that it will talk to a DEC RRD-42 CD-ROM (which I like since it's a
caddy drive).
My Viking/QDT has a sticker that says Q/B A3.2 on what I believe to be the
ROM. I think the 200 CMD controller is consierably lower performance than
the 220, but then again, when replacing an RX02, performance really isn't
an issue. Hopefully the CMD controller will support the CD-ROM. I have
an RRD42 that I could temporarily swipe from another system for testing.
I wish I had a way to boot with the Viking, although I guess I could type
in the bootstrap, but that's annoying. Also, I'm not sure my 18-bit
backplane will work with the Viking. I do have rev E2 or something of the
M8186 11/23 board, which as far as I know supports 22-bit addressing.
If the Viking will work in an 18-bit setup, its probably worth trying to
manually bootstrap it for the purposes of testing different CD-ROMs.
Before I got the Quad-Hieght /73, which has onboard
bootstrap and console
port) I had a dual-height /73 without the onboard bootstrap. At that point
I had a WQESD ESDI controller in the system whose only purpose was booting
the system and a DLV11J for the console port. I've still got the DLV11J in
there as well as a RQDX3 in the system that's only there to drive the RX50
floppies.
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
10:17 a.m.
New subject: CD-ROM on RT-11?
"Zane H. Healy" wrote:
I think
what I'll do at this point is try to make an image with
exchange of v5.03 with my program and all, and copy as well as copy/boot
it to a scsi disk on the vax, and then move it to the PDP. Assuming I get
far enough to get that working, I'd then experiment with getting it on the
CD. I did end up coming across a Viking/QDT SCSI controller, but it
doesn't have bootstrap, and I don't have a BDV11, nor do I have room for
one. I may buy a CQD-200, as they are a lot cheaper than the the CQD-220.
I'd be willing to trade the Viking if anyone wants to swap.
While not as fast
as the CMD controllers the Viking/QDT is a good solid
controller. What version are the ROMs on it? You need a fairly new
version to support CD-ROMs. This is the controller that I use on my
PDP-11/73 (in fact I just booted off of CD-ROM this morning). I know for a
fact that it will talk to a DEC RRD-42 CD-ROM (which I like since it's a
caddy drive). Before I got the Quad-Hieght /73, which has onboard
bootstrap and console
port) I had a dual-height /73 without the onboard bootstrap. At that point
I had a WQESD ESDI controller in the system whose only purpose was booting
the system and a DLV11J for the console port. I've still got the DLV11J in
there as well as a RQDX3 in the system that's only there to drive the RX50
floppies.
Any idea how much an M8190-BB (quad 11/73) might cost? I have a
couple, but I want to keep them for a few more years. But Tom might
find this is the least expensive way to go.
Sincerely yours,
Jerome Fine
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11:52 a.m.
New subject: CD-ROM on RT-11?
On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, Jerome H. Fine wrote:
Any idea if there was a DEC approved CDROM drive which
did NOT
use a caddy?
All of the DEC CD-ROMs after the RRD42 were caddyless. RRD43's are pretty
cheap, and I've never seen a case where it wouldn't work where an RRD42
would. Its a double speed with a spindle that the CD snaps on to, so you
can operate the drive in any position, including upside down if you want.
RRD45's (quad speed) probably aren't much more...they have the tray style
setup like most PCs. RRD46's were still a little pricey last I looked,
they were 12x speed if I remember correctly.
Any idea how much an M8190-BB (quad 11/73) might cost?
I have a
couple, but I want to keep them for a few more years. But Tom might
find this is the least expensive way to go.
I have the same problem of having to get another backplane at that point,
as that would take another half slot. Did any of the PDPs ever have a
console program like the VAX's and alphas do? I guess those machines are
probably pretty expensive. I miss things like "show dev" when working on
the PDP.
10:05 a.m.
New subject: CD-ROM on RT-11?
Tom Leffingwell wrote:
I think what I'll do at this point is try
to make an image with
exchange of v5.03 with my program and all, and copy as well as copy/boot
it to a scsi disk on the vax, and then move it to the PDP. Assuming I get
far enough to get that working, I'd then experiment with getting it on the
CD. I did end up coming across a Viking/QDT SCSI controller, but it
doesn't have bootstrap, and I don't have a BDV11, nor do I have room for
one. I may buy a CQD-200, as they are a lot cheaper than the the CQD-220.
I'd be willing to trade the Viking if anyone wants to swap.
Jerome Fine replies:
Starting with a SCSI hard drive is an excellent method. Right now I
can use that technique to move files between any system that I have
which has a SCSI interface. Although just a bit more complicated
than using a Magneto Optical drive, these days the low capacity
SCSI hard drives (under 2 GBytes) are very inexpensive.
Note that under VMS Exchange, you may be limited to just ONE
RT-11 partition, i.e. partition zero. It was over 10 years ago when
I used Exchange under VMS and the RT-11 partition default was
zero.
What I am curious about is how you are able to run the program
DUP.SAV which is what you are doing with the command
COPY/BOOT DU0:RT11XM.SYS DU0:
when you are running Exchange under VMS. If you mean
that you will first boot RT-11 on the PDP-11 after you
have copied V5.03 of RT-11 to the SCSI hard drive, that
I can understand - although be careful - since your RX02
files are for V4.00 of RT-11, you will first need to put a
set of V5.03 files on an RX02 floppy and boot that. If
I am mixed up about your system, please explain. Maybe
Exchange under VMS allows the command
COPY/BOOT DU0:RT11XM.SYS DU0:
Sincerely yours,
Jerome Fine
--
If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail
address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk
e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be
obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the
'at' with the four digits of the current year.
11:44 a.m.
New subject: CD-ROM on RT-11?
I plan to do the copy/boot in exchange:
EXCHANGE> help copy/boot
COPY
/BOOT
/BOOT[=nn]
This qualifier copies bootstrap information from a monitor
file to blocks 0 and 2 through 5 of an RT-11 volume,
permitting you to use that volume as a system volume. The
COPY/BOOT operation does not create any files on the volume,
it is a special purpose command to create bootable RT-11
systems.
RT-11 Version 1 through Version 3 monitors had the system
device handler linked into the monitor image. For Version 4
of RT-11, the system device handler uses the standard device
handler, and the COPY /BOOT command must dynamically link
the handler into the bootstrap area. COPY /BOOT will auto-
matically sense whether the monitor file is an early or late
monitor, and perform this extra step if required. It finds
the default handler for the specific device type, and merges
the handler with the monitor as it is copied to the boot
area.
The optional value on the /BOOT qualifier is used to over-
ride the choice of the default handler. The most frequent
use of this value occurs when a floppy is mounted in an RX02
drive, but it is desired to create a floppy bootable from an
RX01 drive (obviously, the floppy must be single density).
The default handler for the RX02 is DY.SYS, and the handler
needed for the RX01 is DX.SYS. Therefore, one would use the
command COPY /BOOT=DX to make an RX01 bootable system. Do
not specify /BOOT=nn for V3 and earlier systems, choose the
monitor file DYMNxx.SYS or DXMNxx.SYS as the source file.
The /BOOT qualifier only allows a single parameter, the name
of the monitor file. The /BOOT qualifier cannot be combined
with qualifiers other than /LOG.
On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, Jerome H. Fine wrote:
What I am curious about is how you are able to run the
program
DUP.SAV which is what you are doing with the command
COPY/BOOT DU0:RT11XM.SYS DU0:
when you are running Exchange under VMS. If you mean
that you will first boot RT-11 on the PDP-11 after you
have copied V5.03 of RT-11 to the SCSI hard drive, that
I can understand - although be careful - since your RX02
files are for V4.00 of RT-11, you will first need to put a
set of V5.03 files on an RX02 floppy and boot that. If
I am mixed up about your system, please explain. Maybe
Exchange under VMS allows the command
COPY/BOOT DU0:RT11XM.SYS DU0:
28 Feb
28 Feb
3:42 a.m.
Tom Leffingwell wrote:
After my recent RX02 problems, I've
decided I'd like to add a SCSI
controller in my 11/23, and keep my programs on a hard disk. What Q-bus
controllers will work with RT-11? What's the minimum version of RT-11
that I can get by with? Can I use any disk, or does it have to be
something in particular?
Jerome Fine replies:
As Zane has answered, the CMD and Viking host adapters will work
with RT-11, although I had not remembered that the Viking brand
work only in a 22-bit backplane. I once used a Sigma MFM
controller and it also required a 22-bit backplane.
What Zane did not mention (as you will find out if you ask for prices)
is that the CQD-220/M (disk only) or CDQ-220/TM (Disk and Tape)
host adapters are still expensive for a hobby user - normally in the
range of about $ US 800 to $ US 1200 depending on model and
availability.
So while the SCSI hard drives are almost free - I acquired ten
ST32550N drives for less than $ 15 each (and that was probably
an overpayment - although shipping was zero), the host adapter
for a Qbus is not.
As Zane said, V5.00 is required, although there were too many
bugs in the first few versions. I would recommend AT LEAST
V5.03 of RT-11 for hard drive use and V5.04C for tape use.
Your problem will be making a copy of the newer V5.03 to
a SCSI hard drive. Once that is done, the device driver
for DY(X).SYS in V5.03 will handle the RX02 in the
normal fashion and use the existing 3rd party hardware
without any problems.
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35 comments
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