21 Aug
2001
21 Aug
'01
2:39 p.m.
On Aug 21, 22:18, Adrian Vickers wrote:
At 01:06 pm 21/08/2001 -0600, you wrote:
may
If the CPU's broken, surely you can get that
...
I expect Farnell carry it (that's where I got the Z80 prices from), but a
quick search on "6502" revealed nothing; but I only did it quickly, so
have made a mistake.
I'm fairly sure 6502s are still available from one of the UK suppliers.
The ROM's
are probably pin-compatible with some flavor of EPROM, and
somebody,
>somewhere, surely has the working ROM's ... Hmm, possibly.
Yes to both parts -- on the 8032, the ROMs can be replaced by Texas 2532
EPROMs (that's from memory but I might be able to look it up), and I have
dumps of the ROMs from my 8032 (which I sold a while ago).
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
University of York
21 Aug
21 Aug
11:58 p.m.
At 11:39 pm 21/08/2001 GMT, Pete Turnbull wrote:
On Aug 21, 22:18, Adrian Vickers wrote:
I've already got the ROM dumps (they are available on funet), what I don't
have is the means to burn EPROMs. Still, that's fixable - Maplin do EPROM
burners.
Cheers!
Ade.
--
B-Racing: B where it's at :-)
http://www.b-racing.co.uk
The
ROM's are probably pin-compatible with some flavor of EPROM, and
somebody,
>somewhere, surely has the working ROM's ... Hmm, possibly.
Yes to both parts -- on the 8032, the ROMs can be replaced by Texas 2532
EPROMs (that's from memory but I might be able to look it up), and I have
dumps of the ROMs from my 8032 (which I sold a while ago).
22 Aug
22 Aug
6:32 a.m.
Well, if you can get the EPROMs programmed and just lack a 6502, I imagine I can
find you one in the basement if you can't get one locally.
Let me know if that's all that stands in your way.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adrian Vickers" <avickers(a)solutionengineers.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 2:58 AM
Subject: Re: CBM 8032 SK
At 11:39 pm 21/08/2001 GMT, Pete Turnbull wrote:
On Aug 21, 22:18, Adrian Vickers wrote:
I've already got the ROM dumps (they are available on funet), what I don't
have is the means to burn EPROMs. Still, that's fixable - Maplin do EPROM
burners.
Cheers!
Ade.
--
B-Racing: B where it's at :-)
http://www.b-racing.co.uk
The
ROM's are probably pin-compatible with some flavor of EPROM, and
somebody,
>somewhere, surely has the working ROM's ... Hmm, possibly.
Yes to both parts -- on the 8032, the ROMs can be replaced by Texas 2532
EPROMs (that's from memory but I might be able to look it up), and I have
dumps of the ROMs from my 8032 (which I sold a while ago).
10:17 a.m.
At 09:32 am 22/08/2001 -0600, you wrote:
Well, if you can get the EPROMs programmed and just
lack a 6502, I imagine
I can
find you one in the basement if you can't get one
locally.
Let me know if that's all that stands in your way.
Hi Dick,
Well, there's a few things which are standing in my way....
1) I'm a complete newbie to microprocessor designs & troubleshooting
(although I intend to rectify that, and have bought some books on the
subject. Maybe I'll get into embedded systems using Z80s or similar...
2) I lack the tools to diagnose faults, again rectifiable from a nearby
electronics store
3) Although I don't have an EPROM burner, I can get one. Learning to use it
might be something of a challenge, but I'm sure I'll get there...
Other than that, yes - it's just a case of getting a 6502... Interestingly,
both of the versions that are currently available have extra
instructions... I don't suppose that will affect the operation of existing
CBM software, but it'd be a bit of a bummer if i wrote some m/c which
worked in one machine and not another...!
As for the offer - hold on for now, I may just bid on the German 8032SK,
and fix this the easy way. But I definitely seem to have been bitten by the
"DIY" bug.... time to subscribe to that home-made computer news group, I
think...
Cheers!
Ade.
--
B-Racing: B where it's at :-)
http://www.b-racing.co.uk
10:56 a.m.
Hi, Adrian!
If you're going to have "old" hardware, you're sooner or later going to
have to
deal with DIY, since you can't hire out repairs of the sort you'll both want and
trust. OTOH, if you put forth a bit of effort, mostly in the form of study, and
invest as much as you can comfortably invest in test equipment and supplies,
you'll most generally be able to handle the repairs you need done. This is
especially true since you can get lots of help on this forum.
Learning to operate an eprom programmer should be the least of your worries, not
because it's unimportant, but because it's easy.
A big part of getting the appropriate equipment is learning enough to know
what's appropriate. Starting out small and simple is probably the best route.
Since we've established that you'll have to do no soldering to (1) replace the
EPROMs you lack, and (2) insert the CPU, you can probably breathe a sigh of
relief, in light of your apparent aversion to attempting such things at this
juncture. Perhaps that's just as well for now.
If you replace your missing CPU with one that's as old as the original, you'll
have little trouble. Back when the PET was built, there was only one type of
6502. That's the type you probably want. The CMOS versions were the ones that
came up with extra instructions, and, coincidentally, without the undocumented
ones that existed in the original.
You might visit www.6502.org to get a bit more info about this.
If you want, I'll mail you an old 1 MHz 6502, but, since it involves going to
some trouble, please be sure that you've covered the other bases, so to speak,
so the effort won't be in vain. In general, it might not be a bad idea to find
someone in your area who has a working version of what you've got under study,
just to see if you know what it looks like when it's working right. Moreover, a
momentary parts swap can be VERY revealing.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adrian Vickers" <avickers(a)solutionengineers.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 1:17 PM
Subject: Re: CBM 8032 SK
At 09:32 am 22/08/2001 -0600, you wrote:
Well, if you can get the EPROMs programmed and
just lack a 6502, I imagine
I can
find you one in the basement if you can't get
one locally.
Let me know if that's all that stands in your way.
Hi Dick,
Well, there's a few things which are standing in my way....
1) I'm a complete newbie to microprocessor designs & troubleshooting
(although I intend to rectify that, and have bought some books on the
subject. Maybe I'll get into embedded systems using Z80s or similar...
2) I lack the tools to diagnose faults, again rectifiable from a nearby
electronics store
3) Although I don't have an EPROM burner, I can get one. Learning to use it
might be something of a challenge, but I'm sure I'll get there...
Other than that, yes - it's just a case of getting a 6502... Interestingly,
both of the versions that are currently available have extra
instructions... I don't suppose that will affect the operation of existing
CBM software, but it'd be a bit of a bummer if i wrote some m/c which
worked in one machine and not another...!
As for the offer - hold on for now, I may just bid on the German 8032SK,
and fix this the easy way. But I definitely seem to have been bitten by the
"DIY" bug.... time to subscribe to that home-made computer news group, I
think...
Cheers!
Ade.
--
B-Racing: B where it's at :-)
http://www.b-racing.co.uk
2:28 p.m.
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23 Aug
23 Aug
12:01 a.m.
At 01:56 pm 22/08/2001 -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote:
Hi, Adrian!
Hi Richard! :)
If you're going to have "old" hardware,
you're sooner or later going to
have to
deal with DIY, since you can't hire out repairs of
the sort you'll both
want and
trust. OTOH, if you put forth a bit of effort, mostly
in the form of
study, and
invest as much as you can comfortably invest in test
equipment and supplies,
you'll most generally be able to handle the repairs you need done. This is
especially true since you can get lots of help on this forum.
Agreed - I think I've picked up more advice here in the last two days than
either of the more focussed newsgroups, and even the cbm-hackers list
(which is a bit on the quiet side).
Learning to operate an eprom programmer should be the
least of your
worries, not
because it's unimportant, but because it's
easy.
That makes sense. It's just that I've never used one before, so at this
moment in time, I've not got any idea at all...
A big part of getting the appropriate equipment is
learning enough to know
what's appropriate. Starting out small and simple is probably the best
route.
Since we've established that you'll have to do
no soldering to (1) replace
the
EPROMs you lack, and (2) insert the CPU, you can
probably breathe a sigh of
relief, in light of your apparent aversion to attempting such things at this
juncture. Perhaps that's just as well for now.
Well... It's not that I *can't* solder, it's just that I don't seem to be
very good at it for some reason. It may be that I've got a dodgy iron (I do
need to get one with a much smaller tip if I'm going to start desoldering
ICs), but a) The tip simply won't tin properly, b) It seems to take ages to
warm anything up enough to get the solder flowing. For example, I must have
spent 2 hours building a BBC 'B' monitor cable; and by the time the pin on
the DIN plug got hot, it went a dodgy colour and the solder wouldn't flow
onto it. I did eventually manage to get the cable going, but it was a hell
of a struggle. It didn't help that I don't have a vice here, so I needed
four hands at the time...
If you replace your missing CPU with one that's as
old as the original,
you'll
have little trouble. Back when the PET was built,
there was only one type of
6502. That's the type you probably want. The CMOS versions were the ones
that
came up with extra instructions, and, coincidentally,
without the
undocumented
ones that existed in the original.
According to the datasheet (from Farnell) I was reading, the original
didn't have a BRA instruction? That seems somewhat unlikely to me, but is
it true?
You might visit www.6502.org to get a bit more info about this.
If you want, I'll mail you an old 1 MHz 6502, but, since it involves going to
some trouble, please be sure that you've covered the other bases, so to
speak,
so the effort won't be in vain. In general, it
might not be a bad idea to
find
someone in your area who has a working version of what
you've got under
study,
just to see if you know what it looks like when
it's working right.
Moreover, a
momentary parts swap can be VERY revealing.
Hmmm - I've tried that one way, which revealed the duff CPU (and
fortunately didn't fry the working machine), but I'm very leery of putting
good parts in a fried machine (for much the same reasons Tony gives, and
unashamedly based on his advice).
Thanks anyhow! I'm starting to really look forward to poking around on this
board - maybe there's (no?) hope for me yet...
Cheers!
Ade.
--
B-Racing: B where it's at :-)
http://www.b-racing.co.uk
4:36 a.m.
see below, plz.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adrian Vickers" <avickers(a)solutionengineers.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 3:01 AM
Subject: Re: CBM 8032 SK
These are problems we all wrestle with and yet manage to get handled. Practice,
though it really doesn't make "perfect" does make better, and lack of it
will
make you rusty, if you avoid it for a while. Wanting to avoid soldering and, in
general, dis/re-assembling things is wise. It can't always be avoided, however.
I wasn't aware of a BRA instruction on the 6502. The CMOS parts and MOT had
it
on a number of their later models ...
At 01:56 pm 22/08/2001 -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote:
<snip>
Hi, Adrian!
Hi Richard! :)
If you're going to have "old"
hardware, you're sooner or later going to
have to
>deal with DIY, since you can't hire out repairs of the sort you'll both
Learning to operate an eprom programmer should be
the least of your
worries, not
because it's unimportant, but because it's
easy.
That makes sense. It's just that I've never used one before, so at this
moment in time, I've not got any idea at all...
A big part of getting the appropriate equipment is
learning enough to know
what's appropriate. Starting out small and simple is probably the best
route.
Since we've established that you'll have
to do no soldering to (1) replace
the
EPROMs you lack, and (2) insert the CPU, you can
probably breathe a sigh of
relief, in light of your apparent aversion to attempting such things at this
juncture. Perhaps that's just as well for now.
Well... It's not that I *can't* solder, it's just that I don't seem to
be
very good at it for some reason. It may be that I've got a dodgy iron (I do
need to get one with a much smaller tip if I'm going to start desoldering
ICs), but a) The tip simply won't tin properly, b) It seems to take ages to
warm anything up enough to get the solder flowing. For example, I must have
spent 2 hours building a BBC 'B' monitor cable; and by the time the pin on
the DIN plug got hot, it went a dodgy colour and the solder wouldn't flow
onto it. I did eventually manage to get the cable going, but it was a hell
of a struggle. It didn't help that I don't have a vice here, so I needed
four hands at the time...
If you replace your missing CPU with one
that's as old as the original,
you'll
have little trouble. Back when the PET was built,
there was only one type of
6502. That's the type you probably want. The CMOS versions were the ones
that
came up with extra instructions, and,
coincidentally, without the
undocumented
ones that existed in the original.
According to the datasheet (from Farnell) I was reading, the original
didn't have a BRA instruction? That seems somewhat unlikely to me, but is
it true?
You might visit www.6502.org to get a bit more info about this.
If you want, I'll mail you an old 1 MHz 6502, but, since it involves going to
some trouble, please be sure that you've covered the other bases, so to
speak,
so the effort won't be in vain. In general,
it might not be a bad idea to
find
someone in your area who has a working version of
what you've got under
study,
just to see if you know what it looks like when
it's working right.
Moreover, a
momentary parts swap can be VERY revealing.
Hmmm - I've tried that one way, which revealed the duff CPU (and
fortunately didn't fry the working machine), but I'm very leery of putting
good parts in a fried machine (for much the same reasons Tony gives, and
unashamedly based on his advice).
Thanks anyhow! I'm starting to really look forward to poking around on this
board - maybe there's (no?) hope for me yet...
Cheers!
Ade.
--
B-Racing: B where it's at :-)
http://www.b-racing.co.uk
1:14 p.m.
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24 Aug
24 Aug
12:06 a.m.
At 07:36 am 23/08/2001 -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote:
[soldering]
These are problems we all wrestle with and yet manage
to get handled.
Practice,
though it really doesn't make "perfect"
does make better, and lack of it
will
make you rusty, if you avoid it for a while. Wanting
to avoid soldering
and, in
general, dis/re-assembling things is wise. It
can't always be avoided,
however.
This is true. I'd like to get the knack, however, as I'd like to be able to
build my own devices in the future - mainly for fun, but perhaps to earn
money as well - especially if I get sick of writing VB for a living (which
is definitely starting to happen).
I think I'll need to move soon: I'm getting a tad short of space here...
Cheers!
Ade.
--
B-Racing: B where it's at :-)
http://www.b-racing.co.uk
23 Aug
23 Aug
11:50 a.m.
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11:55 p.m.
At 09:50 pm 23/08/2001 +0100, Tony Duell wrote:
I think that's somewhere around where mine is. Also, it cannot be accused
of having a small tip...
Good grief. Mind you, it's easy enough to spoof an unconditional branch,
except that it takes an extra instruction.
Cheers!
Ade.
--
B-Racing: B where it's at :-)
http://www.b-racing.co.uk
Well... It's not that I *can't* solder, it's just that I don't seem to
be
very good at it for some reason. It may be that I've got a dodgy iron (I do
need to get one with a much smaller tip if I'm going to start desoldering
ICs), but a) The tip simply won't tin properly, b) It seems to take ages to
warm anything up enough to get the solder flowing. For example, I must have
Many beginners are so worried about overheating components that they use
an iron that is far too small (low power element). With the result that
it takes a long time to get the joint up to the right temperature. And
everything else gets hot as well. The result is a lot more damage that if
the right soldering iron was used.
I consider 25W to be a _minimum_ for a non-temperature-controlled iron. I
personally use a 50W temperature-controlled one, and have never had any
problems solding PCBs with it (no lifted tracks or burnt components).
I shall have to look at spending some proper money on a temp-controlled iron.
If you can't tin the tip then something is wrong.
Either the tip is not
clean (you do wipe it on a damp sponge, I take it) or the solder you are
using is the wrong stuff. You are using resin-core (flux) electronic
solder, aren't you? And not the stuff sold for water pipes.
Yes, and yes. However, it refused to take solder from new; there's no rust
or anything like that on it - it's just got a built-in solder resist :(
So don't worry too much if you have problems soldering normal DIN plugs.
We all do :-)
Phew! :)
I've been known to take a bit of scrap wood (OK,
you don't have that
either, right),
:) I could drill holes in the desk... I *am* short of scrap wood, but
there's plenty around for the taking. I've just never needed it before.
drill a few holes in it to take the pins and
'plug' the
plug into the wood. It keeps the pins in roughly the right places and
prevents me chasing the plug around the table....
I used a thick piece of cardboard, which worked, but I had to keep moving
the plug, since after a bit of wobbling the holes had enlarged sufficiently
to reduce the grip.
Still, a vice is something you'll need. Actually,
you'll end up needing a
small vice (about 3" across the jaws) on the electronics bench and a
larger one for mechanical work.
I've got several at my Liverpool base - but I'm rarely there these days.
According to
the datasheet (from Farnell) I was reading, the original
didn't have a BRA instruction? That seems somewhat unlikely to me, but is
it true?
Yes, it's true. The original 6502 had only conditional branches and
unconditional jumps...
24 Aug
24 Aug
1:46 p.m.
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22 Aug
22 Aug
8:06 a.m.
--- Pete Turnbull <pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com> wrote:
Yes to both parts -- on the 8032, the ROMs can be
replaced by Texas 2532
EPROMs (that's from memory but I might be able to look it up), and I have
dumps of the ROMs from my 8032 (which I sold a while ago).
Yes. The 2532 *not* the 2732, will drop into the ROM sockets on a PET.
I have been doing it since 1979. When I got my 32K 2001 (kinda like
a 3032, not at all like a 4032 motherboard), one of the first things I
did was to add 2 toolkit ROMs - BASIC-AID, ROM-RABBIT (a tape speeder)
and a better monitor/assembler. The commercial stuff was purchased,
and the freeware stuff was gotten at the local PET club on 2532s.
I had the $C000 ROM fail on my original PET. I was able to burn a
replacement and it's back on its feet.
With the 2332 and 2732 pinouts, it's possible to build a pin-swabber, but
the 2532 is a no-brainer (if you can find them).
-ethan
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13 comments
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ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
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erd_6502＠yahoo.com -
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