13 Jul
2021
13 Jul
'21
10:33 a.m.
Started work on putting together a couple of VAX6000. 4x0 and 5x0. Looking for spare XMI,
VAXBI, Cab kits DSSI,Ethernet,CI, Storage arrays, spare regulators etc. Will travel the
Northeast for larger items.Also Engineering drawings as the ones on Bitsavers are really
hard to read.
Thanks,Brian.
13 Jul
13 Jul
5:38 p.m.
On Jul 13, 2021, at 10:33 AM, Brian Roth via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:
Started work on putting together a couple of VAX6000. 4x0 and 5x0. Looking for spare XMI,
VAXBI, Cab kits DSSI,Ethernet,CI, Storage arrays, spare regulators etc. Will travel the
Northeast for larger items.Also Engineering drawings as the ones on Bitsavers are really
hard to read.
Thanks,Brian.
I?m impressed! What are the power requirements? I?ve only ever seen one VAX 6000 it was
in a Datacenter I had hardware in 20 years ago.
I?ve recently become interested in getting a VAX 4000, though I keep trying to convince
myself it would be crazy.
Zane
7:21 p.m.
Its going to be interesting for sure. I am currently running some better power into the
shop. The requirements for the 6000 is 3 phase. I just finished reassembling the power
inlet box and I'm pretty sure it will run fine on 2 phases. I had to trace the right
phases to energize the contactor and power the convenience outlets. I really want to find
some engineering drawings for it. The drawings on bitsavers helped a lot but some parts
are blurry and unreadable.
I love the big iron. I had no choice at the time but I regret getting rid of my 780. I
contacted the guy who has it now recently and after 7 years he's getting ready to
start work on it.
I actually think I have some 4000 parts in the archives somewhere.Let me know if you get
one.
I really wish there was a hobby emulator for the 6000. The Charon emulator looks pretty
robust but commercial only.
On Tuesday, July 13, 2021, 8:38:43 PM EDT, Zane Healy <healyzh at avanthar.com>
wrote:
On Jul 13, 2021, at 10:33 AM, Brian Roth via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:
Started work on putting together a couple of VAX6000. 4x0 and 5x0. Looking for spare XMI,
VAXBI, Cab kits DSSI,Ethernet,CI, Storage arrays, spare regulators etc. Will travel the
Northeast for larger items.Also Engineering drawings as the ones on Bitsavers are really
hard to read.
Thanks,Brian.
I?m impressed!? What are the power requirements?? I?ve only ever seen one VAX 6000 it was
in a Datacenter I had hardware in 20 years ago.
I?ve recently become interested in getting a VAX 4000, though I keep trying to convince
myself it would be crazy.
Zane
7:31 p.m.
On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 10:21 PM Brian Roth via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Its going to be interesting for sure. I am currently
running some better power into the shop. The requirements for the 6000 is 3 phase. I just
finished reassembling the power inlet box and I'm pretty sure it will run fine on 2
phases. I had to trace the right phases to energize the contactor and power the
convenience outlets.
My memory for most of the larger VAXen is that they balanced power
supplies across the phases, and *might* have used 3-phase blower
motors in the biggest boxes (8800 for example). Definitely check
wiring, but the 6000 series may well have single-phase blowers.
When we got an 8530 at work in the early 90s (needed a machine with a
Nautilus bus for specific hardware testing), it was definitely a
3-phase machine and since we were in an industrial setting, I just
tapped into our panel at the back of the warehouse and wired up a
3-phase outlet for it. It never sat on our datacenter floor as a
result, but it really only ever had one purpose and that wasn't a
daily driver. Too much power, too much heat for so few employees (at
that stage of the company).
-ethan
8:27 p.m.
.
My memory for most of the larger VAXen is that they
balanced power
supplies across the phases, and *might* have used 3-phase blower
motors in the biggest boxes (8800 for example).? Definitely check
wiring, but the 6000 series may well have single-phase blowers.
Should be good there. They are at least single phase and might even be DC.
When we got an 8530 at work in the early 90s (needed a
machine with a
Nautilus bus for specific hardware testing), it was definitely a
3-phase machine and since we were in an industrial setting, I just
tapped into our panel at the back of the warehouse and wired up a
3-phase outlet for it.? It never sat on our datacenter floor as a
result, but it really only ever had one purpose and that wasn't a
daily driver.? Too much power, too much heat for so few employees (at
that stage of the company).
I'm sure its going to be a pretty good heater this
winter in my small shop.Running solo should not be too bad. Less than 5A I remember
reading somewhere.Of course if I keep adding processor modules and/or an RA92 or two I can
see that changing.If I can leave it running I'll add it to my other Hecnet
machines(emulated)
Brian.
8:34 p.m.
When we got an 8530 at work in the early 90s (needed a
machine with a
Nautilus bus for specific hardware testing), it was definitely a
3-phase machine and since we were in an industrial setting, I just
tapped into our panel at the back of the warehouse and wired up a
3-phase outlet for it. It never sat on our datacenter floor as a
result, but it really only ever had one purpose and that wasn't a
daily driver. Too much power, too much heat for so few employees (at
that stage of the company).
Interesting. Were the power supplies 3 phase input? Like you I have
noticed that most pdp and vax gear just pull 120 volt legs off the 3
phase to balance power loads. So you can run them on a couple of 120
circuits. Outside of say the RP07 (which is a real 3 phase motor)
C
14 Jul
14 Jul
4:43 a.m.
?
Interesting. Were the power supplies 3 phase input?
Like you I have
noticed that most pdp and vax gear just pull 120 volt legs off the 3
phase to balance power loads. So you can run them on a couple of 120
circuits. Outside of say the RP07 (which is a real 3 phase motor)
The 6000 is not like that. After the inlet box the three phases go to the power
conditioner which has a 3-phase thyristor controlled rectifier. From there its 300v up to
the regulators. I remember my 11/780 was like you described.
6:54 a.m.
On Jul 14, 2021, at 7:43 AM, Brian Roth via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
That helps. It may be that feeding it single phase power (220 presumably) would be good
enough, it just means one leg of the three phase rectifier isn't active. If
you're sufficiently below the design max power that should work. If you really need
to drive all legs, and the power conditioner is an adequate low pass filter, a VFC may be
safe to feed it; if not, a rotary converter will do the job.
Incidentally. for those who do have disk drives with three phase motors: as the manual
points out, the phase order is critical for those. If you get it wrong the drive will
spin in the wrong direction. You need to catch that before the drive spins up much; the
pack might unscrew and/or the heads crash.
paul
Interesting. Were the power supplies 3 phase
input? Like you I have
noticed that most pdp and vax gear just pull 120 volt legs off the 3
phase to balance power loads. So you can run them on a couple of 120
circuits. Outside of say the RP07 (which is a real 3 phase motor)
The 6000 is not like that. After the inlet box the three phases go to the power
conditioner which has a 3-phase thyristor controlled rectifier. From there its 300v up to
the regulators. I remember my 11/780 was like you described.
6:56 a.m.
The 6000 is not like that. After the inlet box the
three phases go to the power conditioner which has a 3-phase thyristor controlled
rectifier. From there its 300v up to the regulators. I remember my 11/780 was like you
described.
Oh, that shouldn't be too bad then: Most good networking power supplies
step the 120/208/240 input up to a 300v interstage voltage before
feeding the various supplies (48v, 12v, etc). In fact I have taken Cisco
6009 power supplies apart to get the juicy 300v for building a quick and
dirty pack charger for my truck (you can mod the supply to deliver up to
390v constant voltage instead of 300v).
So get a few of these, have them power the 300v rail and you're in
business. The older Vaxes had linear power supplies if I recall up to
the time of the Decsystem/2020 (when they went switching at last)
C
6:21 a.m.
On Jul 13, 2021, at 11:34 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
A number of the large disk drives use 3 phase motors; RP04/5/6 are examples as well.
Three phase motors won't run on single phase power without help from run capacitors.
(There is no such thing as "two phase power" -- 220 volts is single phase,
balanced.)
If the issue is motors, a "variable frequency converter" will do the job easily.
I have suggested in the past that three phase power supplies could run from those, but
others have pointed out I overlooked some issues. So that's probably not a good
idea.
If you need three phase power to feed power supplies or other non-motor power consumers,
the best answer is probably a "rotary converter". You can find those in machine
tool supply catalogs. Basically they are a three phase motor equipped with run capacitors
so they can be fed single phase power; the three phase power needed is then taken off the
three motor terminals. You can think of these as rotary transformers -- dynamotors in a
sense, for those of you who remember electronics that old. :-)
Don't look at "static converters" -- those are only for motors, it seems
they aren't much more than run capacitors in a box. They won't help you for
anything other than a motor, and even for motors they aren't very good.
paul
When we got an 8530 at work in the early 90s
(needed a machine with a
Nautilus bus for specific hardware testing), it was definitely a
3-phase machine and since we were in an industrial setting, I just
tapped into our panel at the back of the warehouse and wired up a
3-phase outlet for it. It never sat on our datacenter floor as a
result, but it really only ever had one purpose and that wasn't a
daily driver. Too much power, too much heat for so few employees (at
that stage of the company).
Interesting. Were the power supplies 3 phase input? Like you I have noticed that most pdp
and vax gear just pull 120 volt legs off the 3 phase to balance power loads. So you can
run them on a couple of 120 circuits. Outside of say the RP07 (which is a real 3 phase
motor) 
6:39 a.m.
The LSSM, VCFed and System Source acquired a large collection of VAX
hardware couple of years ago and divided it up for their various museums
(6000? 7000?). There is very little about it online, but I have
seen the portions that made it to vcfed and System Source. If it wasn't a
very large 6000 array, it was something contemporary and there was a
plethora of terminals, parts, cabinets that would have been
6000-compatible. You should ask someone at VCFed to take a look at what
they have in the warehouse. Also the Rhode Island computer museum may have
some 6000 stuff, I was just there.
Bill
On Wed, Jul 14, 2021 at 9:21 AM Paul Koning via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
noticed that
most pdp and vax gear just pull 120 volt legs off the 3 phase
to balance power loads. So you can run them on a couple of 120 circuits.
Outside of say the RP07 (which is a real 3 phase motor)
A number of the large disk drives use 3 phase motors; RP04/5/6 are
examples as well.
Three phase motors won't run on single phase power without help from run
capacitors. (There is no such thing as "two phase power" -- 220 volts is
single phase, balanced.)
If the issue is motors, a "variable frequency converter" will do the job
easily. I have suggested in the past that three phase power supplies could
run from those, but others have pointed out I overlooked some issues. So
that's probably not a good idea.
If you need three phase power to feed power supplies or other non-motor
power consumers, the best answer is probably a "rotary converter". You can
find those in machine tool supply catalogs. Basically they are a three
phase motor equipped with run capacitors so they can be fed single phase
power; the three phase power needed is then taken off the three motor
terminals. You can think of these as rotary transformers -- dynamotors in
a sense, for those of you who remember electronics that old. :-)
Don't look at "static converters" -- those are only for motors, it seems
they aren't much more than run capacitors in a box. They won't help you
for anything other than a motor, and even for motors they aren't very good.
paul
On Jul 13, 2021, at 11:34 PM, Chris Zach via
cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
When we got an 8530 at work in the early 90s
(needed a machine with a
Nautilus bus for specific hardware testing), it was definitely a
3-phase machine and since we were in an industrial setting, I just
tapped into our panel at the back of the warehouse and wired up a
3-phase outlet for it. It never sat on our datacenter floor as a
result, but it really only ever had one purpose and that wasn't a
daily driver. Too much power, too much heat for so few employees (at
that stage of the company).
Interesting. Were the power supplies 3 phase input? Like you I have 
9:33 a.m.
On 7/14/21 6:21 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
I've found 2 issues w.r.t. "rotary converters".
* They *always* consume lots of power regardless of the actual load
* They typically don't have great frequency regulation as they are
really designed for machine tools (which are pretty tolerant) so if
the load varies, the frequency will vary until the "mass" catches up
I did a fair amount of investigation of this in order to power the
peripherals for my IBM 4331.? The peripherals in total require on the
order of 21KVA of 3-phase power and with them (printer, card
reader/punch and tape drives) the load will vary *a lot) which would
screw up the DASD (string of 3340 drives and some 3350 clones).
I ended up looking at a solid state phase converter (takes in 220v
single phase and produces 208v 3-phase).? It has a good (< 1% frequency
regulation) and only consumed 100W at idle.? Plus it's relatively small
and quiet.? The downside is cost (~$5000).
--
TTFN - Guy
On Jul 13, 2021, at 11:34 PM, Chris Zach via
cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
A number of the large disk drives use 3
phase motors; RP04/5/6 are examples as well.
Three phase motors won't run on single phase power without help from run capacitors.
(There is no such thing as "two phase power" -- 220 volts is single phase,
balanced.)
If the issue is motors, a "variable frequency converter" will do the job
easily. I have suggested in the past that three phase power supplies could run from
those, but others have pointed out I overlooked some issues. So that's probably not a
good idea.
If you need three phase power to feed power supplies or other non-motor power consumers,
the best answer is probably a "rotary converter". You can find those in machine
tool supply catalogs. Basically they are a three phase motor equipped with run capacitors
so they can be fed single phase power; the three phase power needed is then taken off the
three motor terminals. You can think of these as rotary transformers -- dynamotors in a
sense, for those of you who remember electronics that old. :-)
Don't look at "static converters" -- those are only for motors, it seems
they aren't much more than run capacitors in a box. They won't help you for
anything other than a motor, and even for motors they aren't very good.
paul When we got an 8530 at work in the early 90s
(needed a machine with a
Nautilus bus for specific hardware testing), it was definitely a
3-phase machine and since we were in an industrial setting, I just
tapped into our panel at the back of the warehouse and wired up a
3-phase outlet for it. It never sat on our datacenter floor as a
result, but it really only ever had one purpose and that wasn't a
daily driver. Too much power, too much heat for so few employees (at
that stage of the company).
Interesting. Were the power supplies 3 phase input?
Like you I have noticed that most pdp and vax gear just pull 120 volt legs off the 3 phase
to balance power loads. So you can run them on a couple of 120 circuits. Outside of say
the RP07 (which is a real 3 phase motor)
9:50 a.m.
On Jul 14, 2021, at 12:33 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
I've found 2 issues w.r.t. "rotary converters".
* They *always* consume lots of power regardless of the actual load
Really? That seems odd. A rotary converter is merely a three phase motor with run
capacitors. Just like any other motor, its power demand depends on the applied load. A
normal motor spinning without anything connected to it consumes power to overcome
electrical, magnetical, and friction losses, but none of these are particularly large.
Can you cite a source for this?
* They typically don't have great frequency
regulation as they are
really designed for machine tools (which are pretty tolerant) so if
the load varies, the frequency will vary until the "mass" catches up
They have no frequency regulation at all; what comes out of the third wire is a phase
shifted version of the line input.
You may be thinking about motor-generators, where the output frequency is defined by the
construction of the generator section and how fast it spins. Yes, under high load those
will slow down some, reducing the output frequency.
I did a fair amount of investigation of this in order
to power the peripherals for my IBM 4331. The peripherals in total require on the order
of 21KVA of 3-phase power and with them (printer, card reader/punch and tape drives) the
load will vary *a lot) which would screw up the DASD (string of 3340 drives and some 3350
clones).
Yes, I would expect that. Power supplies would not care much. Another example is the CDC
6000 series, which uses 400 Hz M/G sets feeding power supplies. The disk drives run off
mains power, so any M/G speed variations is not a factor.
I ended up looking at a solid state phase converter
(takes in 220v single phase and produces 208v 3-phase). It has a good (< 1% frequency
regulation) and only consumed 100W at idle. Plus it's relatively small and quiet.
The downside is cost (~$5000).
$5000 ??? I have a VFC on my lathe (3 hp rating, so about 2 kW electric). It cost only
$150 or so as I recall -- TECO Westinghouse brand. I think they are still around. That
particular model was rated for single phase input. Larger ones are not, though I'm
told that they still work if connected that way (220 to two of the input terminals and the
third left open) at reduced rating.
Here is a current example, 3 hp single phase input:
https://www.wolfautomation.com/vfd-3hp-230v-single-phase-ip20/
The concern with VFCs is the pulse width modulated output waveform, which I am told will
bother some types of loads (some electronics) but not others. Motors will certainly be
fine with them, so if you're looking at feeding disk drive motor loads, this is the
perfect answer.
paul
12:09 p.m.
On 7/14/21 11:50 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
Induction motors draw relatively constant CURRENT, but the
phase angle changes with load.
So, the real power draw? increases with increasing load.
If you assume power equals current times voltage, then you
get a wrong indication, by neglecting oiwer factor.
Jon
On Jul 14, 2021, at 12:33 PM, Guy Sotomayor via
cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
I've found 2 issues w.r.t. "rotary converters".
* They *always* consume lots of power regardless of the actual load
Really? That
seems odd. A rotary converter is merely a three phase motor with run capacitors. Just
like any other motor, its power demand depends on the applied load. A normal motor
spinning without anything connected to it consumes power to overcome electrical,
magnetical, and friction losses, but none of these are particularly large.
12:53 p.m.
On 7/14/21 9:50 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
Spec sheets for various rotary converters that I
looked at.? I'd have to
go back and find them again but they typically drew full load power all
the time...and they were *loud*.
The one I looked at produced full sine wave output for all 3 phases.? I
don't recall the THD but it was sub 1%.
21KVA I think works out to 15 or 20HP.? The input for what I was looking
at was 75A @ 220v single phase.? So it's quite a bit more than 2KW and
the MOSFETs they use are *huge*.
Yes, the "small" VCFs are relatively inexpensive if they are just PWM
outputs.
I'm was concerned because there are ferro-resonant? transformers in some
of this gear and the IBM specs for these devices was pretty tight on
frequency and THD.? Given the nature of this gear, I'd rather not have
to go and start replacing unobtainium parts due to poor quality power.
--
TTFN - Guy
On Jul 14, 2021, at 12:33 PM, Guy Sotomayor via
cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
I've found 2 issues w.r.t. "rotary converters".
* They *always* consume lots of power regardless of the actual load
Really? That
seems odd. A rotary converter is merely a three phase motor with run capacitors. Just
like any other motor, its power demand depends on the applied load. A normal motor
spinning without anything connected to it consumes power to overcome electrical,
magnetical, and friction losses, but none of these are particularly large.
Can you cite a source for this? * They typically don't have great frequency
regulation as they are
really designed for machine tools (which are pretty tolerant) so if
the load varies, the frequency will vary until the "mass" catches up
They have no frequency regulation at all; what comes out of the third wire is a phase
shifted version of the line input.
You may be thinking about motor-generators, where the output frequency is defined by the
construction of the generator section and how fast it spins. Yes, under high load those
will slow down some, reducing the output frequency.
I did a fair amount of investigation of this in
order to power the peripherals for my IBM 4331. The peripherals in total require on the
order of 21KVA of 3-phase power and with them (printer, card reader/punch and tape drives)
the load will vary *a lot) which would screw up the DASD (string of 3340 drives and some
3350 clones).
Yes, I would expect that. Power supplies would not care much.
Another example is the CDC 6000 series, which uses 400 Hz M/G sets feeding power supplies.
The disk drives run off mains power, so any M/G speed variations is not a factor.
I ended up looking at a solid state phase
converter (takes in 220v single phase and produces 208v 3-phase). It has a good (< 1%
frequency regulation) and only consumed 100W at idle. Plus it's relatively small and
quiet. The downside is cost (~$5000).
$5000 ??? I have a VFC on my lathe (3 hp
rating, so about 2 kW electric). It cost only $150 or so as I recall -- TECO Westinghouse
brand. I think they are still around. That particular model was rated for single phase
input. Larger ones are not, though I'm told that they still work if connected that
way (220 to two of the input terminals and the third left open) at reduced rating.
Here is a current example, 3 hp single phase input:
https://www.wolfautomation.com/vfd-3hp-230v-single-phase-ip20/
The concern with VFCs is the pulse width modulated output waveform, which I am told will
bother some types of loads (some electronics) but not others. Motors will certainly be
fine with them, so if you're looking at feeding disk drive motor loads, this is the
perfect answer.
1:05 p.m.
On Jul 14, 2021, at 3:53 PM, Guy Sotomayor <ggs at
shiresoft.com> wrote:
On 7/14/21 9:50 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
Spec sheets for various rotary converters that I
looked at. I'd have to go back and find them again but they typically drew full load
power all the time...and they were *loud*.
Odd. I know "Phase-a-matic" which is sold by various machinery companies like
MSC Direct. Checking their brochure (at
https://phaseconverters.phase-a-matic.com/item/rotary-converters/rotary-con…)
shows -- for example -- the 3 hp converter idles at 3 amp. That's 600 watts at the
very most, probably less than that due to power factor but I don't see that
discussed.
paul
On Jul 14, 2021, at 12:33 PM, Guy Sotomayor via
cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
I've found 2 issues w.r.t. "rotary converters".
* They *always* consume lots of power regardless of the actual load
Really? That
seems odd. A rotary converter is merely a three phase motor with run capacitors. Just
like any other motor, its power demand depends on the applied load. A normal motor
spinning without anything connected to it consumes power to overcome electrical,
magnetical, and friction losses, but none of these are particularly large.
Can you cite a source for this?
12:12 p.m.
On 7/14/21 11:33 AM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote:
On 7/14/21 6:21 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
I've found 2 issues w.r.t. "rotary converters".
?* They *always* consume lots of power regardless of the
actual load
?* They typically don't have great frequency regulation as
they are
?? really designed for machine tools (which are pretty
tolerant) so if
?? the load varies, the frequency will vary until the
"mass" catches up
Frequency regulation comes from the single-phase mains, and
thus will be the same as the utility provides.
On Jul 13, 2021, at 11:34 PM, Chris Zach via
cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
A number of the large disk drives use
3 phase motors;
RP04/5/6 are examples as well.
Three phase motors won't run on single phase power
without help from run capacitors.? (There is no such
thing as "two phase power" -- 220 volts is single phase,
balanced.)
If the issue is motors, a "variable frequency converter"
will do the job easily.? I have suggested in the past
that three phase power supplies could run from those, but
others have pointed out I overlooked some issues.? So
that's probably not a good idea.
If you need three phase power to feed power supplies or
other non-motor power consumers, the best answer is
probably a "rotary converter".? You can find those in
machine tool supply catalogs.? Basically they are a three
phase motor equipped with run capacitors so they can be
fed single phase power; the three phase power needed is
then taken off the three motor terminals. You can think
of these as rotary transformers -- dynamotors in a sense,
for those of you who remember electronics that old.? :-)
Don't look at "static converters" -- those are only for
motors, it seems they aren't much more than run
capacitors in a box. They won't help you for anything
other than a motor, and even for motors they aren't very
good.
????paul When we got an 8530 at work in the early 90s
(needed a
machine with a
Nautilus bus for specific hardware testing), it was
definitely a
3-phase machine and since we were in an industrial
setting, I just
tapped into our panel at the back of the warehouse and
wired up a
3-phase outlet for it.? It never sat on our datacenter
floor as a
result, but it really only ever had one purpose and
that wasn't a
daily driver.? Too much power, too much heat for so few
employees (at
that stage of the company).
Interesting. Were the power supplies 3 phase input?
Like
you I have noticed that most pdp and vax gear just pull
120 volt legs off the 3 phase to balance power loads. So
you can run them on a couple of 120 circuits. Outside of
say the RP07 (which is a real 3 phase motor) I did a fair amount of investigation of this in order
to
power the peripherals for my IBM 4331.? The peripherals in
total require on the order of 21KVA of 3-phase power and
with them (printer, card reader/punch and tape drives) the
load will vary *a lot) which would screw up the DASD
(string of 3340 drives and some 3350 clones).
I ended up looking at a solid state phase converter (takes
in 220v single phase and produces 208v 3-phase).? It has a
good (< 1% frequency regulation) and only consumed 100W at
idle.? Plus it's relatively small and quiet.? The downside
is cost (~$5000).
1208
days inactive
1209
days old
16 comments
8 participants
participants (8)
-
abacos_98＠yahoo.com -
billdegnan＠gmail.com -
cz＠alembic.crystel.com -
elson＠pico-systems.com -
ethan.dicks＠gmail.com -
ggs＠shiresoft.com -
healyzh＠avanthar.com -
paulkoning＠comcast.net