17 May
1999
17 May
'99
12:10 p.m.
The general disdain with which PC collecting is met with on this list is
understandable, however, I have been thinking there must be something here.
I recall the folks who have collected PETs and C64s that are pretty common
and "worthless" these days (I saw a new Vic20 in box at the Hamvention that
they couldn't _give_ away.)
So I've had some thoughts on what might be useful to "collect" when it came
to the PC industry and this is what I've come up with:
1) All motherboard types - collecting one each of the "standard"
sizes (AT, XT, Baby-AT, etc)
2) Collecting one each of all processor types.
3) Collecting one each of all media types.
4) Collecting all of the video standards.
5) "Famous brands", IBM, Compaq, etc.
6) "Famous peripherals", Bus mouse, XT keyboard, AT keyboard, etc
This is something that anyone could start today since, like the computers
of yore, this stuff is currently being tossed out.
Comments?
--Chuck
17 May
17 May
12:31 p.m.
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1:39 p.m.
But that's _my_ list. You're welcome to collect
what you want ;-) and I
hope somebody is collecting the 'boring' clones that I don't bother with,
since otherwise they'll be lost for ever.
Interesting point. Odds are a lot are already extinct, I'd imagine that
the survival rate of a odd-ball computer (non-Clone PC) better than that of
a clone PC. For one thing the Clone PC will be scavanged for parts, for
another thing the software will be transplanted to the new system so why
not toss the old system in the trash.
I still won't be collecting Clone PC's though.
Zane
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast |
| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
6:13 p.m.
Hmm, I didn't make a very clear point. Consider the following:
Lots of people on this list moan about the "Good old days" when PDP-8's
could be had by swinging by a university and offering to take it off their
hands, or an IMSAI or Altair because it was "worthless junk." These same
people complain that now "collectors" have moved in and are charging and
getting "outragious" prices on ebay, etc etc. Here's my point, are you
ready? _Today_ is the "good old days" for PC collecting, and if it is like
any other system, be it Apple Lisas or PDP-6's, in 10 or 15 years the
newbies on the list will be asking where they can find an original Hercules
monochrome display adapter for the PC they are restoring. So let's not 'dis
the PC collector when it isn't our particular cup of tea, let's help out as
those before us helped out (at least two former DEC folks gladly gave me
docs that they now thought were worthless because they no longer cared
about them. Similarly I give away PC stuff to anyone who can cart it away
if they want to collect it.) [I've got a 5150 here somewhere if someone in
the SF Bay Area wants it, or is willing to pay to pack it up and send it
somewhere.]
--Chuck
18 May
18 May
5:51 a.m.
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9:08 a.m.
IMHO there should be more to computer collecting (or at
least my sort of
computer collecting) than building a pile of boxes with different
nameplates on the front...
Actually I think a rather novel collection would be machines that are
identical outside except for local branding. It all depends on the person
doing the collecting.
17 May
17 May
1:24 p.m.
Comments?
Collecting PC's? ICK!
Having said that this is pretty much what I'd consider collecting.
IBM PC
IBM PC XT
IBM PC AT
Kaypro 2000
My current system
Any other systems I might currently be using
Needless to say, I'm one of those people that isn't hot on the idea of
collecting IBM PC's/PC clones. The first three in the above list are
covered by a Kapro PC in my collection, and I think I've one other
'collection' PC that was dumped on me. Other than that, basically any PC's
I've got are being put to some sort of use.
Of course any 386 or higher PC can be used as a firewall if nothing else.
BTW, I've a fairly large Mac collection and my main system is a Mac
(believe it or not I was PC only from '87-'95). However, the same thing
could be said about Mac's. On the other had a 10 year old Mac is a LOT
more usable than a 10 year old PC, especially if you've the right software
for it.
Zane
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast |
| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
2:58 p.m.
Good comments. Might not elicit much response but I thought I would add mtc.
A plain Vic 20 would be tough to give away but a Vic 20 in its original box
with some 'options' would interest me, and I have three already.
As for disdain, I can't figure it out unless some folks feel that collectors
will drive up the prices somehow, as they have in just about everything else.
But collectors also define what is 'collectible' and for anyone who has
subscribed to this group for any length of time, you will see that virtually
everything about computers is collectible ... to someone.
Two side comments, hopefully to illustrate something. 1. Boat motor collectors
insist that antique boat motors are worthless. They probably are worthless to
anyone but boat motor collectors. Ditto for computers. 2. I once emailed a
person about some hand puppets I have, knowing that he recently bought one.
Turns out he didn't collect hand puppets but he did collect 'wolf' items, and
the puppet he bought was a wolf. So your list of collectible items makes sense,
but then someone could just as well collect all the different ICs that are out
there, too.
My feeling is that there might be a lot of hardware out there, but there seems
to be a lack of documentation, both oem and third party. Now, if I see a
manual, I pick it up hoping that one day I will either be able to offer
assistance or be able to match the hardware to the book.
Comments?
Brian
Chuck McManis wrote:
The general disdain with which PC collecting is met
with on this list is
understandable, however, I have been thinking there must be something here.
I recall the folks who have collected PETs and C64s that are pretty common
and "worthless" these days (I saw a new Vic20 in box at the Hamvention that
they couldn't _give_ away.)
So I've had some thoughts on what might be useful to "collect" when it
came
to the PC industry and this is what I've come up with:
1) All motherboard types - collecting one each of the "standard"
sizes (AT, XT, Baby-AT, etc)
2) Collecting one each of all processor types.
3) Collecting one each of all media types.
4) Collecting all of the video standards.
5) "Famous brands", IBM, Compaq, etc.
6) "Famous peripherals", Bus mouse, XT keyboard, AT keyboard, etc
This is something that anyone could start today since, like the computers
of yore, this stuff is currently being tossed out.
Comments?
--Chuck
--
http://members.xoom.com/T3C/
http://suite101.com/welcome.cfm/antique_computers
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Horizon/9107/
1:06 p.m.
I do then same every user or technical manual I see I buy it or ask for if
someone is throwing it out. It does not matter the age or newness of the
manual. John
-----Original Message-----
From: CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu
[mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Brian Mahoney
Sent: Monday, May 17, 1999 9:59 PM
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
Subject: Re: Collecting PCs
Good comments. Might not elicit much response but I thought I
would add mtc.
A plain Vic 20 would be tough to give away but a Vic 20 in its
original box
with some 'options' would interest me, and I have three already.
As for disdain, I can't figure it out unless some folks feel that
collectors
will drive up the prices somehow, as they have in just about
everything else.
But collectors also define what is 'collectible' and for anyone who has
subscribed to this group for any length of time, you will see
that virtually
everything about computers is collectible ... to someone.
Two side comments, hopefully to illustrate something. 1. Boat
motor collectors
insist that antique boat motors are worthless. They probably are
worthless to
anyone but boat motor collectors. Ditto for computers. 2. I once emailed a
person about some hand puppets I have, knowing that he recently
bought one.
Turns out he didn't collect hand puppets but he did collect
'wolf' items, and
the puppet he bought was a wolf. So your list of collectible
items makes sense,
but then someone could just as well collect all the different ICs
that are out
there, too.
My feeling is that there might be a lot of hardware out there,
but there seems
to be a lack of documentation, both oem and third party. Now, if I see a
manual, I pick it up hoping that one day I will either be able to offer
assistance or be able to match the hardware to the book.
Comments?
Brian
Chuck McManis wrote:
The general disdain with which PC collecting is
met with on this list is
understandable, however, I have been thinking there must be
something here.
I recall the folks who have collected PETs and C64s that are
pretty common
and "worthless" these days (I saw a new
Vic20 in box at the
Hamvention that
they couldn't _give_ away.)
So I've had some thoughts on what might be useful to "collect"
when
it came
to the PC industry and this is what I've come
up with:
1) All motherboard types - collecting one each of the "standard"
sizes (AT, XT, Baby-AT, etc)
2) Collecting one each of all processor types.
3) Collecting one each of all media types.
4) Collecting all of the video standards.
5) "Famous brands", IBM, Compaq, etc.
6) "Famous peripherals", Bus mouse, XT keyboard, AT
keyboard,
etc
This is something that anyone could start today since, like the
computers
of yore, this stuff is currently being tossed
out.
Comments?
--Chuck
--
http://members.xoom.com/T3C/
http://suite101.com/welcome.cfm/antique_computers
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Horizon/9107/
3:18 p.m.
At 08:58 PM 5/17/99 -0600, Brian wrote:
My feeling is that there might be a lot of hardware out
there, but there seems
to be a lack of documentation, both oem and third party. Now, if I see a
manual, I pick it up hoping that one day I will either be able to offer
assistance or be able to match the hardware to the book.
Comments?
Brian
And of course much hardware seems to be undocumented to protect
"intellectual property" rights. I agree however this is a worthwhile goal.
I chastised my Mom for throwing out some "old worthless computer books"
because she didn't need them.
--Chuck
18 May
18 May
2:19 a.m.
I think we need to clarify collecting vs acquiring. The reason I bought a
IBM 5140 is that I think it represents a unique point in computer
development. The reason I bought a 486 clone is that I wanted a cheap Linux
server/router box. The appeal of a PS/2, or even a 5150, is kind of in the
middle combined with there current low prices.
Certainly nobody needs my or anyone elses approval prior to collecting
anything they see fit to, but I do tend to agree that few 486 or pentium
clones will ever fall into what we conventionally think of collectible
items. They are too common and too similar for my tastes.
6:42 a.m.
On Tue, 18 May 1999, Mike Ford wrote:
I think we need to clarify collecting vs acquiring.
The reason I bought a
IBM 5140 is that I think it represents a unique point in computer
development. The reason I bought a 486 clone is that I wanted a cheap Linux
server/router box. The appeal of a PS/2, or even a 5150, is kind of in the
middle combined with there current low prices.
Well, the IBM 5140 stands in the
front row when we talk about PCs, even
the new ones. They still have (in one way or another) the ISA bus. I mean,
that's one of the most visible things inside the PC.
Certainly nobody needs my or anyone elses approval
prior to collecting
anything they see fit to, but I do tend to agree that few 486 or pentium
clones will ever fall into what we conventionally think of collectible
items. They are too common and too similar for my tastes.
The PS/2, at least the
first ones, were not too common if you take it to
todays standards. Now everybody has a PC, and it's all Pentium or
higher/equivalent. What's rare today is to have a development cpu or board
in your 'clone'.
Just my .00002 cents.
Sander
6:29 a.m.
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17 May
17 May
4:46 p.m.
On 17 May 99 at 17:10, Chuck McManis wrote:
The general disdain with which PC collecting is met
with on this list is
understandable, however, I have been thinking there must be something here.
I recall the folks who have collected PETs and C64s that are pretty common
and "worthless" these days (I saw a new Vic20 in box at the Hamvention that
they couldn't _give_ away.)
Well had you picked it up you could have made a bit of money. Check what
they're going for on E-Pay and also the lowly Atari 2600 prices. Old Pets will
go for more than many minis. But of course we aren't talking about economic
values here, unless it's an Altair or Imsai., but of esthetic "worth".
Different strokes fo different folks.
So I've had some thoughts on what might be useful to "collect" when it
came
to the PC industry and this is what I've come up with:
1) All motherboard types - collecting one each of the "standard"
sizes (AT, XT, Baby-AT, etc)
2) Collecting one each of all processor types.
3) Collecting one each of all media types.
4) Collecting all of the video standards.
5) "Famous brands", IBM, Compaq, etc.
6) "Famous peripherals", Bus mouse, XT keyboard, AT keyboard, etc
This is something that anyone could start today since, like the computers
of yore, this stuff is currently being tossed out.
Comments?
--Chuck
Well I'm a collector of the "disdained" and we are Legion. You
can't have been
looking around the I-net lately if you haven't noticed the burgeoning number of
micro collectors. Mini and Main -frame collectors are a distinct minority.
I collect "home" computers. Original IBM's including some
"classic" PS/2s as
well as Apples, Ataris, Commodores, and Tandy. WE don't want no "steenking"
minis. I wouldn't turn down a PDP8/e mind you.
As far as the early IBMs go, I have 2 PCs- one heavily modified, one I'll
leave pristine, the same with 2 XTs, 1 AT- somewhat modified with an EGA board.
and the monitors and KBs (plus spares)that came with them. I've got an Intel
Inboard 386 card, a Plus HardCard, and other goodies on the one PC, things like
6-pack and Quad cards and multi-I/O cards, programs like Multimate, the Gem
version of Ventura Publisher, QDs' Deskmate and many others including a
shrinkwrapped copy of IBM Basic 3.0 and numerous other documentation. I also
admit to a few "special" clones like an original Compaq and unique models of
pre-386 Dos-Boxes. Some CPM boxes, and portables.
Now possibly you mini drones don't consider that "collecting" but I am
perfectly delighted with my stuff and each new addition. I couldn't care less
about "Big Iron" , but then again I always preferred the Karman-Ghia to the
Cadillac and I'm not from Texas.
ciao larry
lwalker(a)interlog.com
Let us know of your upcoming computer events for our Events Page.
t3c(a)xoommail.com
Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C
18 May
18 May
6:37 a.m.
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12:54 p.m.
On 18 May 99 at 19:37, Tony Duell wrote:
As I said I'm not from Texas, so BIG don't mean shit to me.
The Dec PDP8/e attraction goes way back to my digital course when a friend
gave me a DEC 8/e maintenance manual which outlined the CPU processes with the
Fetches and responses and helped me understand how a computer works. A little
like studying an unknown processor and following it's processes. The
explanations were so clear and precise that I've always wanted to have the
machine so I could follow its functioning. The book turned me onto the machine.
ciao larry
lwalker(a)interlog.com
Let us know of your upcoming computer events for our Events Page.
t3c(a)xoommail.com
Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C
Well I'm
a collector of the "disdained" and we are Legion. You can't have been
looking around the I-net lately if you haven't noticed the burgeoning number of
micro collectors. Mini and Main -frame collectors are a distinct minority.
True enough. A lot of people want to collect what they remember using
('Hey, I used a PET back in 1979, and I'd sure like to have one now').
Rather fewer want the big iron. And very few want the obscure machines
that were very nice in their day, but expensive, so nobody bought them,
so nobody remembers them...
Doesn't bother me at all. For one (selfish) reason, it means more minis
for people like me :-). But more seriously, it's good that different
people are collecting different machines - that way at least one of
everything will be preserved.
I collect "home" computers. Original
IBM's including some "classic" PS/2s as
well as Apples, Ataris, Commodores, and Tandy. WE don't want no "steenking"
minis. I wouldn't turn down a PDP8/e mind you.
Why the 8/e in particular? The PDP8 is a very elegant machine, so I can
understand wanting to own one (I have a couple...) but I can't see why
you'd pick that one model. It is the most common one, I guess...
Now possibly you mini drones don't consider
that "collecting" but I am
I do consider it 'collecting', don't worry. I guess I just prefer large
boards of TTL that I can understand to large ASICs that I can't....
-tony
19 May
19 May
5:58 a.m.
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20 May
20 May
1:17 a.m.
On 19 May 99 at 18:58, Tony Duell wrote:
I don't like minis _because_ they're big, I like them because they're
made out of simple components that I can understand, like NAND gates and
flip-flops, and all the connections to these gates and flip-flops are
accessible on pins of chips (or of transistors or valves :-)). From what
you say below, I suspect you have similar likings...
Yes, elegance and simplicity of design attracts me in all things.
The one I have is the "Processor Maintenance Manual" Vol 1 . A lovely
book.
One of my most prized computer texts. No comparison to most of the badly
written, mispelled, an in many cases uninformative texts that pass for manuals
these days.
ciao larry
lwalker(a)interlog.com
Let us know of your upcoming computer events for our Events Page.
t3c(a)xoommail.com
Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C
I do consider it 'collecting', don't
worry. I guess I just prefer large
boards of TTL that I can understand to large ASICs that I can't....
-tony
As I said I'm not from Texas, so BIG don't mean shit to me.
The Dec PDP8/e attraction goes way back to my digital course when a friend
gave me a DEC 8/e maintenance manual which outlined the CPU processes with the
The 8/e maintenance manual is one of the best hardware manuals that I
own. It describes how the 8/e (and its memory + peripherals, the full set
is 3 books) work at gate level. And it's clear!.
It's a very understandable description of a real processor that runs real
programs. I learnt a heck of a lot from these books.
-tony
9:53 a.m.
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18 comments
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ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
bmahoney＠sprint.ca -
cmcmanis＠freegate.com -
cmcmanis＠mcmanis.com -
healyzh＠aracnet.com -
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lwalker＠mail.interlog.com -
mikeford＠netwiz.net -
sander＠Cam045101.student.utwente.nl