19 Jun
2005
19 Jun
'05
5:20 a.m.
Those of you following this list for the last few years know about
my "giveaways". I've been getting rid of stuff that has sat in my
basement or garage for a number of years without getting touched.
In my hardware heyday, I would spend every moment of my free time
playing with Q-bus, Unibus, or S-100 hardware. I also had my foot
in the water w.r.t. PDP-11 OS releases (in some cases both feet
in the water) in the late 90's and got to do a lot of fun things
with very specialized classic hardware (CAT machine backprojectors
hooked to PDP-11's, for example).
But since I got a "steady job" in 2000 running a $10 Billion peripheral,
factored in with three young kids, I didn't have the time to treat
the hardware well. All of it has gone on to find good homes, and I want
to thank the volunteers who helped me get rid of it. There's still
a few items but they have owners allocated already :-).
I still do tinker with electronics, but my attention as of late
is on analog circuitry (often with microcontroller assistance) rather
than older bus-based computer systems. I've also acquired a few
R-390A's that I'm happy to say are on their way to being cleaned up
and restored. (OK, the R-390A has a digital display on the front,
but it's not digital electronics!).
And I will still endeavor to take care of the PDP-10 software
archives, the DECUS PDP-11 and PDP-10 collections, etc. It's been
years since any software was donated to those archives so I haven't
put a lot of effort into them. But it's good to know that there a
are a couple of PDP-10's around the world that are now usefully
"up" thanks to the archives.
I've made a few attempts to break into the professional archiving
world w.r.t. digital media, but so far I've been universally ignored.
Of course, those who ignore me would rather just talk about the
problem rather than solve it. So maybe that's why I don't register
on their radar. You have seen and probably will see me rant and
rave on this subject occasionally!
So that's my non-retirement. I hope to keep involved and do relevant
things into the future, and in the past few months I've been browsing
this list more than I did in the early 2000's.
Tim.
19 Jun
19 Jun
6:43 a.m.
From: "Tim Shoppa" <shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com>
I've made a few attempts to break into the
professional archiving
world w.r.t. digital media, but so far I've been universally ignored.
Of course, those who ignore me would rather just talk about the
problem rather than solve it.
A meager consolidation, but you are not the only one. Everybody, including
most of the people (I've met!) responsible for archiving important data,
believes that CDR's will last forever, and that there always will be a
Windows version (shudder).
Some time ago, there was an article on the subject in a danish periodical
for archivists, but absolutely no reactions have resulted.
The only thing to do, seems to keep all those conversion / archiving /
format / .... knowledge alive, so our (grand)children might use it.
8:21 a.m.
Hi,
Nico de Jong said:
From: "Tim Shoppa" <shoppa_classiccmp at
trailing-edge.com>
ISO have some publications on the subject, I have one as a PDF and
they're easy to find online. Look for ISO TC 42/N 4767 for example.
The British Museum and the Public Records Office have been doing
research, but what the current state of play is I don't know.
See also:
Avoiding Technological Quicksand: Finding a Viable Technical Foundation
for Digital Preservation by Jeff Rothenberg
Available online somewhere...
--
Cheers,
Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com
The future was never like this!
I've made a few attempts to break into the
professional archiving
world w.r.t. digital media, but so far I've been universally ignored.
Of course, those who ignore me would rather just talk about the
problem rather than solve it.
A meager consolidation, but you are not the only one. Everybody, including
most of the people (I've met!) responsible for archiving important data,
believes that CDR's will last forever, and that there always will be a
Windows version (shudder).
Some time ago, there was an article on the subject in a danish periodical
for archivists, but absolutely no reactions have resulted. 
8:58 p.m.
Nico de Jong wrote:
A meager consolidation, but you are not the only one.
Everybody, including
most of the people (I've met!) responsible for archiving important data,
believes that CDR's will last forever, and that there always will be a
Windows version (shudder).
Jerome Fine replies:
I would appreciate a recommendation! How long should
a CD be replied upon? If the image file for the CD
is retained, how long before it will not be possible
to burn a new CD and use it on what will then be a
current operating system?
I notice that current DVD drives are still able to
read a CD. Does anyone have any suggestions as to
how many decades this will still be possible? Please
include the capability of being able to understand
the current ISO9660 file directory on the CD (for which
I have also kept the ISO image file used when I burned
the CD)!
I have archived RT-11 distributions on a CD and wonder
how long it might be before newer OSs are no longer able
to read/burn the CD. At that point, it will be necessary
to use a different media so that future hobby users are
able to continue to access the files. I realize that
stating when the CD will no longer be readable is almost
a pure guess, but I was wondering is anyone is willing
to suggest if it will be less than 3 decades or more
than 10 decades?
Sincerely yours,
Jerome Fine
--
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9:47 p.m.
How long should a CD be replied upon?
Pressed, or CD-R? A pressed CD will likely be readable as long as the
drive still works, would be my guess - especially if the CD is kept in
the dark and in an inert atmosphere. A CD-R is quite a different
story; I wouldn't count on them nearly as long.
How long, that's another question. A decade, maybe?
/~\ The ASCII der Mouse
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10:23 p.m.
How long
should a CD be replied upon?
Pressed, or CD-R? A pressed CD will likely be readable as long as the
drive still works, would be my guess - especially if the CD is kept in
the dark and in an inert atmosphere. A CD-R is quite a different
story; I wouldn't count on them nearly as long.
How long, that's another question. A decade, maybe?
20 Jun
20 Jun
2:54 a.m.
It really depends on the brand/type of CD-R blanks
being used.
I try to use only Verbatim DataLifePlus blanks, unfortunately
it's getting *very* difficult to find them. I'm sure there are
other good blanks out there [...]
They aren't available at many brick-and-mortar stores, but
Mitsubishi Gold CD-R's are undisputably the "gold standard".
Kodak used to make Gold CD-R's too, but they got out of that
business several years ago. I managed to buy a few palletfulls
in their fire sale.
Now Kodak has announced they'll no longer make black-and-white
printing papers. I suppose that means that I have to get heavy
back into B/W photography. (You'll also notice that I said "printing
papers", when I was last heavy into photography Kodak was still
selling "contact printing papers".) Maybe skip this whole paper
thing, and print only on emulsion hand-coated on glass plates :-).
Anyway, back to Gold CD-R's, they aren't real cheap, typically
about $1 per CD-R.
Tim.
3:53 a.m.
Kodak used to make Gold CD-R's too, but they got
out of that
business several years ago. I managed to buy a few
palletfulls in their fire sale.
What is the manufacturer's projected pre-burn shelf-life
of a CD-R blank?
I don't expect to need CD-Rs for future archival purposes
(since I expect I'll be using DVD-R or whatever comes next),
but I might want to burn a CD-R for some machine or other
that does not understand anything more recent.
So when I see CD-R blanks going the way of the dodo in a few
years time, and I decide to do an end-of-life buy, just how
long can I expect those blanks to survive on the shelf?
Antonio
3 p.m.
On Mon, 20 Jun 2005, Tim Shoppa wrote:
Anyway, back to Gold CD-R's, they aren't real
cheap, typically
about $1 per CD-R.
Worth their weight in the gold they contain if they'll in fact preserve
your data for the estimated 90-100 years.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
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3:48 a.m.
I would appreciate a recommendation! How long should
a CD be replied upon?
You cannot rely on a CD (not even a pressed CD) for
anything important. You need at least two CDs, preferably
more. By the time you realise you were unlucky enough
to hit the bad one in the batch, it is too late.
I've had a few CD-Rs die and two DVD-Rs die. For stuff I
care about, I burn to CD-R twice. I expect to take the
whole lot and reburn to something else eventually. I
keep waiting for the C3D or similar technology to surface
(say 100GB per disc) but I'm still waiting. Given the
drop in ?/GB of had drives lately, I may well put everything
onto a spare drive in the meantime.
If the image file for the CD
is retained, how long before it will not be possible
to burn a new CD and use it on what will then be a
current operating system?
The ISO ormat is well documented. If you ignore various
copy-protections schemes, the for straight-forward normal
CDs, I would be surprised if you cannot access one 100
years from now. You almost certainly won't be able to burn
a new CD-R (since noone wil be making the media) but you
will be able to access an ISO file. If you use something
like Nero with its (I assume ...) undocumented .NRG format,
you'll have to spin up an emulator and a copy of WXP with
Nero. Convert to ISO before then and you should be OK.
I'd be surprised if noone has a working DVD drive 50
years from now. Even the next generation stuff (HD-DVD)
sounds like it will be able to read CDs.
stating when the CD will no longer be readable is
almost
a pure guess, but I was wondering is anyone is willing
to suggest if it will be less than 3 decades or more
than 10 decades?
Surely reading ISO9660 image files will be possible essentially
forever, unless we lose the standard (or the ability to program)!
Being able to read the media may prove difficult beyond 100 years
or so. As long as the current equivalent to CDROM remains based on
rotating media that is read optically, modifying such a drive to
read a CDROM will remain feasible. Once we move to something as
different to CDROM as those are to floppy disk drives, then we
will get to find out how hard it is to build a drive from scratch!
Has anyone built a floppy drive from scratch? Without salvaging
any mechanical parts or heads from an existing floppy? I'm
assuming that electronic processing is not a problem (in
principle) for either floppy disks or CDROMs/DVDROMs.
Antonio
4:18 a.m.
On Mon, 2005-06-20 at 11:48 +0100, Antonio Carlini wrote:
I doubt rotating optical storage will be around forever, particularly
not in the same physical size package as the current generation of
disks. Maybe 20 years or so...
As for the media, I don't know. Main problem I'm aware of is reading the
media in drives other than the one in which the data was written
(laptop / combo drives being notoriously horrible). It's no use having
the media (and testing it at creation time) only to find in ten years it
won't work on the current crop of hardware.
Floppies suffer the same problem. That's another reason that hard drives
are nice; the drive encapsulates the electronic and the mechanical side
of things in one package and only presents an electrical interface to
the system, so there's little to go wrong - it either works or it
doesn't.
I've had a few CD-Rs die and two DVD-Rs die. For
stuff I
care about, I burn to CD-R twice. I expect to take the
whole lot and reburn to something else eventually. I
keep waiting for the C3D or similar technology to surface
(say 100GB per disc) but I'm still waiting. Given the
drop in ?/GB of had drives lately, I may well put everything
onto a spare drive in the meantime.
I've been using spare drives here for backup for a long while now - I
duplicate stuff to two different drives though just to inspire
confidence (and use identical drives so that in theory I could part-swap
if something went *really* wrong)
Personally I wouldn't trust CDs for anything.
will be able to access an ISO file. If you use
something
like Nero with its (I assume ...) undocumented .NRG format,
you'll have to spin up an emulator and a copy of WXP with
Nero. Convert to ISO before then and you should be OK.
Wine's getting very good these days incidentally; I expect it'll be able
to run Windows binaries many years after Windows itself has
disappeared...
stating when
the CD will no longer be readable is almost
a pure guess, but I was wondering is anyone is willing
to suggest if it will be less than 3 decades or more
than 10 decades?
Surely reading ISO9660 image files will be possible essentially
forever, unless we lose the standard (or the ability to program)! Has anyone built a floppy drive from scratch? Without
salvaging
any mechanical parts or heads from an existing floppy? I'm
assuming that electronic processing is not a problem (in
principle) for either floppy disks or CDROMs/DVDROMs.
I doubt it. Using the heads from an existing drive it'd not be *too*
difficult given a decent workshop I expect. But fabricating heads from
scratch must be a pretty difficult and expensive process...
cheers
Jules
4:30 a.m.
On Mon, 20 Jun 2005, Antonio Carlini wrote:
You cannot rely on a CD (not even a pressed CD) for
anything important. You need at least two CDs, preferably
more. By the time you realise you were unlucky enough
to hit the bad one in the batch, it is too late.
Correct. I still do backups of
all data (and images of media)
onto DLT tapes, two copies per "volume", in separate locations.
The ISO ormat is well documented. If you ignore
various
copy-protections schemes, the for straight-forward normal
CDs, I would be surprised if you cannot access one 100
years from now. You almost certainly won't be able to burn
a new CD-R (since noone wil be making the media) but you
will be able to access an ISO file. If you use something
Correct, many ISO-level
image browsers exist.
like Nero with its (I assume ...) undocumented .NRG
format,
you'll have to spin up an emulator and a copy of WXP with
Nero. Convert to ISO before then and you should be OK.
.. and most of those
browsers understand .nrgs as well.
--f
4:25 p.m.
Has anyone built a floppy drive from scratch? Without
salvaging
any mechanical parts or heads from an existing floppy? I'm
assuming that electronic processing is not a problem (in
principle) for either floppy disks or CDROMs/DVDROMs.
Another possibiliy is to assume that some (non-working) drives are still
around, how hard would it be to get them working again.
For both the CD-ROM and the floppy, I think all parts other than the
head/laser pickup could be made in a good home workshop (Note, I am not
claiming _I_ could do it, at least not yet). Now the winding on a floppy
drive head could corrode and go open-circuit (this is a problem on some
types of recording head, I am told it was due to acid from the fingers of
the people who handled the wire when they were being wound). But I would
think the semiconductor laser and photodiodes in a CD pickup was much
more likely to fail with time.
GIven the head, I think the electronics would be doable. The floppy drive
would probably be easier, if only because all floppy heads used much the
same read chain, so if you could find data on any floppy drive you could
probably make something that would work. And if you get it wrong, you are
not likely to damage the head. Whereas the CD pickup is a more
complicated device to drive, if you get the laser current wrong it'll
either not work (current too low) or not work ever again (current too
high). And every manufacturer did his own thing, so you are not likely to
be able to find a published circuit that will work.
-tony
5:52 p.m.
Antonio Carlini wrote:
I would
appreciate a recommendation! How long should
a CD be replied upon?
You cannot rely on a CD (not even a pressed CD) for
anything important. You need at least two CDs, preferably
more. By the time you realise you were unlucky enough
to hit the bad one in the batch, it is too late.
I've had a few CD-Rs die and two DVD-Rs die. For stuff I
care about, I burn to CD-R twice. I expect to take the
whole lot and reburn to something else eventually. I
keep waiting for the C3D or similar technology to surface
(say 100GB per disc) but I'm still waiting. Given the
drop in ?/GB of had drives lately, I may well put everything
onto a spare drive in the meantime.
If the image file for the CD
is retained, how long before it will not be possible
to burn a new CD and use it on what will then be a
current operating system?
The ISO ormat is well documented. If you ignore various
copy-protections schemes, the for straight-forward normal
CDs, I would be surprised if you cannot access one 100
years from now. You almost certainly won't be able to burn
a new CD-R (since noone wil be making the media) but you
will be able to access an ISO file. If you use something
like Nero with its (I assume ...) undocumented .NRG format,
you'll have to spin up an emulator and a copy of WXP with
Nero. Convert to ISO before then and you should be OK.
I'd be surprised if noone has a working DVD drive 50
years from now. Even the next generation stuff (HD-DVD)
sounds like it will be able to read CDs.
stating when the CD will no longer be readable is
almost
a pure guess, but I was wondering is anyone is willing
to suggest if it will be less than 3 decades or more
than 10 decades?
Surely reading ISO9660 image files will be possible essentially
forever, unless we lose the standard (or the ability to program)!
Being able to read the media may prove difficult beyond 100 years
or so. As long as the current equivalent to CDROM remains based on
rotating media that is read optically, modifying such a drive to
read a CDROM will remain feasible. Once we move to something as
different to CDROM as those are to floppy disk drives, then we
will get to find out how hard it is to build a drive from scratch!
Has anyone built a floppy drive from scratch? Without salvaging
any mechanical parts or heads from an existing floppy? I'm
assuming that electronic processing is not a problem (in
principle) for either floppy disks or CDROMs/DVDROMs.
7:07 p.m.
Does anyone have any success with a CD emulation
program
that will allow me to use a CD image file (an exact duplicate of
the ISO image file of the CD which was used to burn the CD
in the first place)?
I have created images of DEC ODS-?3 CD's to overcome the SIMH/w98
foreign mounting problem, which I don't gather isn't your problem. I use
Adaptec EasyCD for this. Commercial. Oddly this will still work if you
write the image back onto a CD-R encapsulated in the native filesystem.
SIMH/Linux isn't supposed to require doing this stupid thing.
John A.
21 Jun
21 Jun
7:06 a.m.
> Does anyone have any success with a CD emulation
program that will
> allow me to use a CD image file (an exact duplicate of the ISO
> image file of the CD which was used to burn the CD in the first
> place)?
cdrecord on Linux should do that. I've used it to make backup copies
of CDs, via a CDrom image file.
That's a nice package, especially if you give it the non-commercial
use cdrecord-pro key, then it will do full DVD writing, too.
paul
9:17 a.m.
On Mon, 2005-06-20 at 20:52 -0400, Jerome H. Fine wrote:
<snip>
At present, I am using Windows 98 SE (I realize that
this
is badly off topic, but I can't successfully use anything
else with E11 to run my RT-11 programs). Does anyone
have any success with a CD emulation program that will
allow me to use a CD image file (an exact duplicate of
the ISO image file of the CD which was used to burn the
CD in the first place)? Are there both free and commercial
versions? What are the advantages and the disadvantages?
(Both free)
Linux: mount -o loop,ro /path/to/cdimage.iso /mntpoint
Or point the emulator at a 'dd' image file of the CD.
Windows: DAEMON Tools.
The Linux command only tends to work with CD Images that are in ISO
format's, and contain a filesystem type Linux recognizes.
Daemon tools works w/ just about every format under the sun.
http://www.daemon-tools.cc/dtcc/portal/portal.php
I believe that's the site. Its most commonly used to image WinTendo
copy protected CDRoms, but it should do what you want.
The image file should show up as a CD drive under Windows. I'm not 100%
certain how that would interact w/ an emulator, it _should_ work. In
theory.
David
1:10 p.m.
David Holland wrote:
On Mon, 2005-06-20 at 20:52 -0400, Jerome H. Fine
wrote:
<snip>
In my experience it's just a filesystem issue. I've mounted and read
both CD's and CD images that are not ISO9660 format. SGI's EFS install
CDs are a good example.
By the way, dd will make a valid image of almost any data CD or DVD,
whether the filesystem is supported or not. You might have to juggle
the block size, but that's the only issue I've ever had. I've
successfully copied VMS CDs, AIX install and mkCD disks, Mac HFS CDs, etc.
Doc
At present, I am using Windows 98 SE (I realize
that this
is badly off topic, but I can't successfully use anything
else with E11 to run my RT-11 programs). Does anyone
have any success with a CD emulation program that will
allow me to use a CD image file (an exact duplicate of
the ISO image file of the CD which was used to burn the
CD in the first place)? Are there both free and commercial
versions? What are the advantages and the disadvantages?
(Both free)
Linux: mount -o loop,ro /path/to/cdimage.iso /mntpoint
Or point the emulator at a 'dd' image file of the CD.
Windows: DAEMON Tools.
The Linux command only tends to work with CD Images that are in ISO
format's, and contain a filesystem type Linux recognizes. 
22 Jun
22 Jun
5:01 p.m.
On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 20:52:16 -0400
"Jerome H. Fine" <jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to> wrote:
Does anyone
have any success with a CD emulation program that will
allow me to use a CD image file (an exact duplicate of
the ISO image file of the CD which was used to burn the
CD in the first place)? Are there both free and commercial
versions? What are the advantages and the disadvantages?
The program 'Winimage' which is easily located online allows you to
create floppy diskette images. If you save them as uncompressed,
they're the same as images you'd create using a Unix-like OS (i.e.
NetBSD or Linux) using the dd command, and you can use 'rawrite' to
write them (a free open-source program many free-Unix-like OSes make use
of.
Winimage also will open ISO images to 'browse' them as if they are
actual cds. (the point of this reply, the first paragraph is just
advertising)
5:04 p.m.
At 07:01 PM 6/22/2005, Scott Stevens wrote:
Winimage also will open ISO images to 'browse'
them as if they are
actual cds. (the point of this reply, the first paragraph is just
advertising)
If we're talking Windows XP, Microsoft has an unsupported
"virtual CD control panel":
http://download.microsoft.com/download/7/b/6/7b6abd84-7841-4978-96f5-bd58df…
- John
20 Jun
20 Jun
5:55 a.m.
At 10:58 PM 6/19/2005, Jerome H. Fine wrote:
I have archived RT-11 distributions on a CD and wonder
how long it might be before newer OSs are no longer able
to read/burn the CD. At that point, it will be necessary
to use a different media so that future hobby users are
able to continue to access the files. I realize that
stating when the CD will no longer be readable is almost
a pure guess, but I was wondering is anyone is willing
to suggest if it will be less than 3 decades or more
than 10 decades?
I suspect that *software* to mount an ISO file as a native filesystem will
still be around in ten years on PCs, if not indefinitely on Linux.
If the CD/DVD form factor endures, it's hard to imagine that
they wouldn't want to retain CD/DVD readability.
I've been meaning to buy a few spindles of good-quality,
long-lasting CD-R and DVD media, like those made by Taiyo Yuden.
- John
1:47 p.m.
On Sun, 19 Jun 2005, Jerome H. Fine wrote:
I have archived RT-11 distributions on a CD and
wonder
how long it might be before newer OSs are no longer able
to read/burn the CD. At that point, it will be necessary
to use a different media so that future hobby users are
able to continue to access the files. I realize that
stating when the CD will no longer be readable is almost
a pure guess, but I was wondering is anyone is willing
to suggest if it will be less than 3 decades or more
than 10 decades?
Far less than 3 decades. The safest bet is to assume it will not be
readable in 5 years or less. Tape was supplanted by floppies which were
supplanted by CD which is being supplanted by DVD. Once the supplantant
of DVDs arrives on the scene, quickly move all your data (ideally kept on
a live server, relying on the external storage media as last-resort
backups only) onto the new medium. Keep doing this in perpetuity.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
7:28 p.m.
Tim Shoppa wrote:
650MB CD-R's were supposedly supplanted by 700 MB
CD-R's. But I
do not yet trust DVD's, and in my heart I have a distrust of the 700 MB
CD-R's.
Jerome Fine replies:
I have used a DVD burner for about 3 years:
(a) To burn a monthly backup file - 4 * 1 GByte
per month or 3 DVDs per year. Since each monthly
backup would have required 2 CDs, it was simply
not practical. About once a year, I check the
old DVD-Rs to make sure I can still read them.
(b) For some reason I do NOT understand, when I
MOUNT DU0: CDROMi:/RONLY
under E11 using the DVD drive and a bootable CD
with RT-11 software, E11 can read the first
64 blocks on the CD (16 CD sectors) and actually
BOOT RT-11.
Once you find a use for DVDs that makes life a lot
easier, I suggest you will make them "trailing" edge
technology as well
Sincerely yours,
Jerome Fine
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If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail
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23 comments
17 participants
participants (17)
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a.carlini＠ntlworld.com -
allain＠panix.com -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
chenmel＠earthlink.net -
dholland＠woh.rr.com -
doc＠mdrconsult.com -
healyzh＠aracnet.com -
jfoust＠threedee.com -
jhfinexgs2＠compsys.to -
julesrichardsonuk＠yahoo.co.uk -
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nico＠FARUMDATA.DK -
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shoppa_classiccmp＠trailing-edge.com -
stanb＠dial.pipex.com -
vcf＠siconic.com -
waltje＠pdp11.nl