Does anyone in any real sense use Kermit these days? Even back during my bbs days Kermit was a rarely supported and/or slow protocol that wasn't exactly a first choice. Wasn't it designed for slower packet switched networks the likes of telenet and tymnet? Sent from my iPhone On Apr 11, 2011, at 12:14 AM, Mr Ian Primus <ian_primus at yahoo.com> wrote:

It was thus said that the Great Michael Kerpan once stated: Back in college I used Kermit all the time. The dialups to the University were not 8-bit clean, and the procedure one used to make the path between the modem and the target system [1] didn't always worked (at least, in my case I could never get an 8-bit clean path) so often times the *only* file transfer protocol that would work was Kermit. -spc (And at 300, speed wasn't really much of an issue ... 8-) [1] The university modems were hooked into a terminal server made by DEC and run by the internal university IT department. To get to the Unix servers in the CS department, I had to connect to an intermediate system (which meant we had to have yet another account), *then* log into the Unix system [2]. Making sure the entire path: modem -> terminal server -> DEC system? -> Unix was 8-bit clean annoying. [2] Getting to the University Library computer system was even more fun; I recall about three or four intermediate systems you had to go through, one of which never gave a prompt and you had to type blindly, go down a flight of stairs that didn't exist in the dark, and check the filing cabinet in an unsused bathroom marked with a "Beware of the Leopard" sign. Fun times [3] [3] Not really.

This doesn't strike me as a typical use case though. :) Sent from my iPhone On Apr 11, 2011, at 8:30 AM, Dave Mabry <dmabry at mich.com> wrote:

On 11/04/2011 17:39, Geoff Oltmans wrote: Actually that /is/ a typical case. It's exactly the sort of thing Kermit was designed for, and probably more common than BBSs. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York

On 4/11/11 2:14 PM, Geoff Oltmans wrote: Talking to console ports, for one. Anyone who does any sort of real networking work has to do that all the time. Ditto for nearly any embedded systems work. These aren't exactly shrinking fields. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL

On 4/11/11 2:44 PM, Geoff Oltmans wrote: If you're talking about xmodem/ymodem, you're likely talking about installing firmware. I'm talking about using kermit (the program, not the file transfer protocol) to interact with embedded machines for interactive configuration and/or debugging. This is extremely common. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL

I've always used minicom. I wonder if this is a case of emacs vs vi. :) Sent from my iPhone On Apr 11, 2011, at 1:51 PM, Mr Ian Primus <ian_primus at yahoo.com> wrote:

I'm sure minicom isn't without it's warts. I came from the land of telix/procomm which are similar in operation to minicom (though obviously not the same). I have probably run Kermit on one occasion but I couldn't tell you for sure. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 11, 2011, at 1:57 PM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:

On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 11:51:17AM -0700, Mr Ian Primus wrote: Amen to that. I started with using minicom, then discovered kermit (or ckermit as this particular package was called) and never looked back. Talk to the LOM of my Sun V100, talk to the serial (and only) console of my PCEngines Alix boards ... it is simple and It Just Works (TM) ;-) Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison

Yes it is. I apologize for not being more specific. -Dave On 4/11/11 2:53 PM, Geoff Oltmans wrote: -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL

Lol. Well, that's something else I've gotten used to over the years since outlook pretty much defaults to top posting in replies. :) Sent from my iPhone On Apr 11, 2011, at 1:55 PM, Mr Ian Primus <ian_primus at yahoo.com> wrote:

On Mon, 11 Apr 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: "Outhouse"

On 4/11/11 2:59 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: And its "lite-version" software, "Outhouse Distress" Doc

On Mon, 11 Apr 2011, Pete Turnbull wrote: Many Kermits, especially C-Kermit, don't have any terminal emulation at all. Christian

What's a "typical use case" for this group? :-) Yes, we use it too - I use it to get file images onto a PDP-8/e. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Geoff Oltmans [oltmansg at bellsouth.net] Sent: Monday, April 11, 2011 9:39 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) This doesn't strike me as a typical use case though. :) Sent from my iPhone On Apr 11, 2011, at 8:30 AM, Dave Mabry <dmabry at mich.com> wrote:

From: Ethan Dicks Sent: Monday, April 11, 2011 10:37 AM We also use Kermit-10 on the 2065 to provide file transfer capabilities, since we do not have TCP/IP for Tops-10 (nor a Tops-10 driver for the Stanford MEIS[1] even if we did). In addition, I use Kermit 95 for *VT52* emulation (VT100 emulators are a dime a dozen, but try to find a VT52 emulator!) for connecting to the ITS system we're restoring.[2] [1] Massbus-Ethernet Interface Subsystem, the Ethernet interface for the KL-10 invented at Stanford and sold for a time by cisco Systems. [2] ITS does not handle VT100 natively. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/

On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 3:57 PM, Rich Alderson <RichA at vulcan.com> wrote: Another edge-case where there are few alternatives. A *good* VT100 emulator should do VT52 emulation (it's fully described in the relevant documentation). The problem is that there are few *good* VT100 emulators. As I've mentioned on the list before, my threshold for VT52 emulation is successfully running the VTEDIT Macro on the OS/8 version of TECO (it works perfectly on a real VT52). Besides 'vttest', my threshold for VT100 emulation is successfully running emacs on TOPS-20 (I had some issues a few years back with almost-emulation that vanished when I used a real terminal to drive sessions on the "Panda" distro of klh10+TOPS-20 - I don't recall why I couldn't/didn't use Kermit, but it probably has to do with being in a sunless place for months at a time). -ethan

I didn't see mentioned, . . . "Back in the day", . . . (heavily exaggerated to clarify the difference) Non-academics tended to use Modem7, X-Modem and its variants. Most knew about kermit, but rarely used it. ("It's probably fine for 7-bit, but it breaks every 8-bit byte into TWO bytes", "EVERYBODY uses ABCDEFG-MODEM.", etc.) Academics tended to use Kermit, and sometimes even feigned lack of knowledge of the existence of the Christensen protocols. ("If it wasn't developed by a major university, how can I be sure that it really works?", "EVERYBODY uses Kermit.", "Kermit is on every machine that has ever existed.", etc.) While far from a definitive correlation, it was often possible to draw conclusions about somebody's background based on those views. On an only slightly related "EVERYBODY does/doesn't", which groups used ANSI.SYS on PCs? "EVERYBODY had a 'doubler'" "Hardly anyone had a 'doubler', because they already had data separators and 8" adapters" "EVERYBODY in xxxxxxxxxxxx field uses Macintoshes ONLY" "NOBODY uses TRS80 when there is ANY alternative" (re: Model16) "Why would anybody produce 8080 code, EVERYBODY has a Z80." "S100 might catch on, if it gets standardized" "BASIC?? NOBODY would use BASIC for ANYTHING!" "'Proprietary programming system'? WHICH BASIC compiler?" "I won't use WORDSTAR, it turned all of my files into ASCII!" "VI!" "Emacs would be a nice operating system, if it had a decent editor." The preceding has been exaggerated for your amusement. . . .

On Mon, 11 Apr 2011, Rich Alderson wrote: I am far from an authority on the history nor variants. Virtually none of my information on it is first hand. I was under the impression that the whole family was based on Ward Christensen's MODEM.ASM from 1977?, and that he has been working at IBM (NOT on microcomputer file transfer!) since about 1968? (Is he STILL there??) Could you elaborate on Yale's role? (Or did they simply buck the "Not Invented In Academia" tendency?) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com

Geoff Oltmans said the following on 4/11/2011 12:39 PM: I would argue that it is exactly "typical" for what Kermit was designed. Dissimilar systems "talking" together. It is ideal for me. Typical for me. I guess it comes down to your definition of "typical."

On Mon, 11 Apr 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: I designed the protocol into an embedded design just a few months ago. Lets me move diagnostic programs and data onto an SD card in the device. 'Course, I didn't do snazzy features like sliding windows and enhanced checksums; don't need them for the occasional diagnostic data transfer. -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net

On 4/11/11 12:52 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: Exactly. Here are some settings from my ~/.kermrc that I use for good file transfer performance on low-latency connections: set rec packet 4096 set send packet 4096 set window 4 set block 3 set file type binary Yep. It's probably one of the few instances of a software project being truly "done". -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL

Hi, On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 2:46 PM, Geoff Oltmans <oltmansg at bellsouth.net> wrote: Well, I recently resurrected an old ND-Satellite/9 minicomputer from Norsk Data. The machine doesn't have any network interfaces, except for terminal (serial) ports. However, it did have kermit on one of the 8 inch floppies that I got with the machine. I still use kermit to transfer files to and from that machine. Very handy. -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen

I certianly do. In fact if I ever decide to get a more modern machine, I would not consider one without a serial port (or USB-serial interface, or...) and kermit. The main reason I use it is becuase it's available for just about anything. I tink the [XYZ]modem programs were much less 'univeral'. I never found the latter for the PERQ, the BBC micro, HP9000/200, etc. As I have mentioned many times before, I find the HP95LX palmtop very useful for shipping data between machines tht are not physically next to each other .I normally use the kermit in that machine if I can. It does have an Xmodem protocol setting too, but I've never really tried it. My HP48, of course, has kermit built-in (but not Xmodem). For example, I want to send somebody a dump of an EPROM from a classic machine. My EPROM programmer has a serial por and will output the contents of the EPROM in Intel-Hex. I can capture that using the HP98LX in text capture mode, then carry the HP95LX to my PC and use kermit to transfer the data. It saves trying to get the EPROM progrmamer from by electronics bench to my computer desk (you've not seen the lack of space here :-)). I;'ev never found the speed of things _where I can set it going and come back when it's done_ very important. I'll start the transfer and get on with something else. -tony

On 4/11/11 3:29 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: Are you assuming that gainful employment in a technical field and involvement in classic computing preservation are somehow mutually exclusive? That's one of the more whacked-out arguments I've heard here. (and that's saying something!) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL

Thank you! On Mon, 11 Apr 2011, Ethan Dicks wrote: Thank you for clarifying what I was saying. To a lesser extent, many "modern" employers would prefer to avoid hiring people like us. Well, at least those of us, such as myself and Tony, who are vocal about the existence of downsides to current "progress". "Nobody needs more than two floppy ports" "Nobody need more than one floppy port" "Nobody needs a floppy port" "Nobody needs incandescents" "Nobody needs a parallel port" "Nobody needs RS232" "Nobody needs SCSI" "Nobody needs a command line" "Nobody programs in assembly language anymore, nor ever will again." -(Clancy and Harvey, UC Berkeley Lower Division CS) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com

On 4/11/11 5:29 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: You do, I do, lots of people here do. There are some fields in which that knowledge is still a requirement. For the rest, we'll just have to keep teaching people. Well, if you're a defeatist, yes. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL

On 4/11/11 7:01 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: Wow, clueless. This looks like a perfect example of "those who can, do, while those who can't, teach". -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL

On 4/12/11 10:08 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: Excellent. Thanks! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL

In the late 90's we used Kermit running on a IBM-AT clone in my first digital electronics class. We used it to download binaries from a DOS-based 68HC11 assembler to a development board. Currently I have the Windows and Linux versions installed on my "Rosetta" machine - a PC loaded up with a bunch of different interfaces and network connectors to talk to my various machines. I haven't had the chance to use it yet - I'll probably need it when I try to fire up one of my old Sun4 machines.

On 4/16/11 3:51 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: [stands up, applauds] -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL

Looks at an article in thae latest 'Datafile' (HPCC magazine) which includes a section 'CPU Theory of Operation' with subsections like 'Micorocde Sequencer', 'R and X field decoding', 'Accumulator Control', etc and comes to the conclusion that HPCC member 788 is a 'nobody' Which is probably very true... -tony

On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 11:06:00PM +0100, Philip Pemberton wrote: Hehe. And manually building machine code counts a expensive cheating, right? ACK. When all is said and done, bits of assembler sit at the root of a lot of basic system infrastructure. You, sir, are very ... brave. ;-) SCNR, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison

On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 02:06:31PM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: Honestly, I haven't used a floppy on current (at the time) systems for almost ten years now. I went through a _pile_ of them when my connection to the university network was via sneakernet, but that was quite few years ago. These days, it is CDs, DVDs, USB sticks/disks. But I still keep the images of my old Novell DOS floppies - one never knows ;-) Depends. I'm running CFLs at home wherever I can: far more light for the same heat budget (at lot of the typical lamp sockets round here are limited to 60 W, which means darkness with incandescents or serious light with CFLs). Besides, my machines already heat up the place well enough, I don't want to add a few hundred watts of halogen lights to that. Oddly enough, pretty much every machine/mainboard I've bought so far still has a parallel port. Admittedly, for printers these days I prefer to talk to them via the network, so I either get printers that can talk to the networkor - for those who can't - connect them to the little print server box sitting quietly blinking on the shelf. For very limited values of nobody. I need serial to talk to the LOMs of my SUNs and to the (only) consoles of my Alixes. Although good USB-to-serial adapters work quite well these days. Well, the root disks in my current server (which also carry the important filesystems, like /home and /var/spool/mail) are a mirrored set of SCSI disks. Bulk storage (like my CD collection ripped to MP3 for convenience) is SATA. Again, depends. For the point-and-drool masses, sure, they neither need nor want a commandline. But I'm a Unix sysadmin by trade, the commandline is pretty much the most fundamental tool for my work. In fact, _my_ personal definition of a GUI is "10 Firefox/Chrome windows and 40-50 xterms". I really like X11, it is a nice, shiny terminal multiplexer ;-) We've been through that and while it holds true for some fields (complex application for one), it is utter nonsense as a general statement. One should be careful with words like 'nobody', 'never' unless one likes the taste of crow, for that matter ;-) Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison

On Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 11:19:50PM -0400, William Donzelli wrote: I use it to talk to the LOM of my Sun V100 (sitting in the IKEA shelf behind me, earning its electricity as backup, squid and NTP server). It is also my first choice if I have to talk via serial port to some device that speaks a human readable protocol atop serial. It Just Works (TM). Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison

On Mon, 18 Apr 2011, Charlie Carothers wrote: Surely, the remote code download that you started running 15 years ago must be almost finished by now.