12 Nov
2015
12 Nov
'15
1:54 p.m.
As per subject line, does anyone know of any util that will back up an x86
PC running some variant of DOS (MS, Compaq etc.) via rs232 to a remote
system? (Linux preferable on the remote, but other options exist)
I'm not finding anything via Google, but it seems like the sort of thing
that some of the folks here may have done for their systems in the past.
I'm thinking something that will do a sector-by-sector transfer from a
given partition (maybe only in-use sectors, implying some minor
intelligence on the remote end to covert into a raw image, but "send
everything" mentality is better than nothing) - extra points for retrying
bad sectors.
cheers
Jules
12 Nov
12 Nov
1:56 p.m.
We used to back up to serial attached devices, such as tape drives or a
serially attached hard drive, but I never did it to a different operating
system, sorry.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules
Richardson
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 3:54 PM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: x86/DOS system backup via rs232?
As per subject line, does anyone know of any util that will back up an x86
PC running some variant of DOS (MS, Compaq etc.) via rs232 to a remote
system? (Linux preferable on the remote, but other options exist)
I'm not finding anything via Google, but it seems like the sort of thing
that some of the folks here may have done for their systems in the past.
I'm thinking something that will do a sector-by-sector transfer from a given
partition (maybe only in-use sectors, implying some minor intelligence on
the remote end to covert into a raw image, but "send everything" mentality
is better than nothing) - extra points for retrying bad sectors.
cheers
Jules
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
1:58 p.m.
I've never seen anything works on the sector level, but there are plenty of
terminal emulators that can backup entire directorties with YMODEM batch or
Kermit.
Is there any paricular reason you want disk imaging capability? Bootsectors
on DOS can be re-written with the SYS command, so a boot floppy of the same
version + the terminal emulator should be all you need to do a restore.
On 12 November 2015 at 21:54, Jules Richardson <jules.richardson99 at gmail.com
wrote:
As per subject line, does anyone know of any util that will back up an x86
PC running some variant of DOS (MS, Compaq etc.) via rs232 to a remote
system? (Linux preferable on the remote, but other options exist)
I'm not finding anything via Google, but it seems like the sort of thing
that some of the folks here may have done for their systems in the past.
I'm thinking something that will do a sector-by-sector transfer from a
given partition (maybe only in-use sectors, implying some minor
intelligence on the remote end to covert into a raw image, but "send
everything" mentality is better than nothing) - extra points for retrying
bad sectors.
cheers
Jules
2:03 p.m.
This may also be of use: https://www.briggsoft.com/fmdos.htm
On 12 November 2015 at 21:58, Tom Moss <tomjmoss at googlemail.com> wrote:
I've never seen anything works on the sector
level, but there are plenty
of terminal emulators that can backup entire directorties with YMODEM batch
or Kermit.
Is there any paricular reason you want disk imaging capability?
Bootsectors on DOS can be re-written with the SYS command, so a boot floppy
of the same version + the terminal emulator should be all you need to do a
restore.
On 12 November 2015 at 21:54, Jules Richardson <
jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote:
As per subject line, does anyone know of any util that will back up an
x86 PC running some variant of DOS (MS, Compaq etc.) via rs232 to a remote
system? (Linux preferable on the remote, but other options exist)
I'm not finding anything via Google, but it seems like the sort of thing
that some of the folks here may have done for their systems in the past.
I'm thinking something that will do a sector-by-sector transfer from a
given partition (maybe only in-use sectors, implying some minor
intelligence on the remote end to covert into a raw image, but "send
everything" mentality is better than nothing) - extra points for retrying
bad sectors.
cheers
Jules
13 Nov
13 Nov
1:47 a.m.
On Thu, 12 Nov 2015, Tom Moss wrote:
I've never seen anything works on the sector
level, but there are plenty of
There is DITU (Disk-Image Transfer Utility) for MS-DOS, and it's free
including C source code. I use it e.g. to image the hard disk of a DOS PC
into a file (either network or parallel ZIP drive).
ftp://ftp.oldskool.org/pub/misc/Hardware/IBM/PCjr%20magazines%20and%20resou…
I've modified the program a bit to support retries and TurboC.
Christian
12 Nov
12 Nov
2:05 p.m.
As per subject line, does anyone know of any util that
will back up
an x86 PC running some variant of DOS (MS, Compaq etc.) via rs232 to
a remote system? (Linux preferable on the remote, but other options
exist)
Bring up a liveCD or moral equivalent and run SLIP, then do any of many
networked-backup variants? SLIP at 115200 is only about 1% of a 10Mb
Ethernet, but that may be enough to be useful, especially if you
compress.
Alternatively, maybe move the DOS disk to the other machine and copy it
there with dd or moral equivalent?
/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org
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2:09 p.m.
On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 3:05 PM, Mouse <mouse at rodents-montreal.org> wrote:
10kb/s is about 800MB/day (rounded down), or roughly 1CD / day.
Warner
As per subject
line, does anyone know of any util that will back up
an x86 PC running some variant of DOS (MS, Compaq etc.) via rs232 to
a remote system? (Linux preferable on the remote, but other options
exist)
Bring up a liveCD or moral equivalent and run SLIP, then do any of many
networked-backup variants? SLIP at 115200 is only about 1% of a 10Mb
Ethernet, but that may be enough to be useful, especially if you
compress
2:40 p.m.
On 11/12/2015 04:05 PM, Mouse wrote:
Hmm, was SLIP an option for DOS TCP/IP stacks? I'd not considered that
because I've only ever used TCP/IP in a DOS environment against Ethernet
hardware, but if I could get SLIP up and map a DOS drive letter to a remote
mount point, that would probably do the trick...
As per subject
line, does anyone know of any util that will back up
an x86 PC running some variant of DOS (MS, Compaq etc.) via rs232 to
a remote system? (Linux preferable on the remote, but other options
exist)
Bring up a liveCD or moral equivalent and run SLIP, then do any of many
networked-backup variants? SLIP at 115200 is only about 1% of a 10Mb
Ethernet, but that may be enough to be useful, especially if you
compress.
I'm not sure if something with e.g. an 8088 CPU can even come close to that
- maybe 9600, tops.
I'd be expecting several hours of transfer for a typical 20MB ST506-type
drive, assuming it was doing raw sectors rather than just "in use" data -
but I think it's the only option in some cases where Ethernet or
sneakernetting data via floppy isn't viable.
Alternatively, maybe move the DOS disk to the other
machine and copy it
there with dd or moral equivalent?
For anything modern with IDE or SCSI, sure, but not so easy for
ST506/ST412/ESDI :(
cheers
Jules
4 p.m.
Bring up a
liveCD or moral equivalent and run SLIP, then do any of
many networked-backup variants?
Hmm, was SLIP an option for DOS TCP/IP stacks?
I'm not sure if something with e.g. an 8088 CPU
can even come close
to that - maybe 9600, tops.
Yes, if it's _that_ old, it may be difficult to find a livecd that will
run. Perhaps minix?
It also might be worth investigating to see if any of the [xyz]modem
implementations would be willing to read directly from a disk.
I'd be expecting several hours of transfer for a
typical 20MB
ST506-type drive,
At 9600, assuming no loss to framing, error detection/correction, and
the like, my arithmetic says 20MB should take a little over 6 hours.
Alternatively,
maybe move the DOS disk to the other machine and copy
it there with dd or moral equivalent?
For anything modern with IDE or SCSI, sure,
but not so easy for
ST506/ST412/ESDI :( 
7:16 p.m.
On Thu, 12 Nov 2015, Mouse wrote:
However, I _think_ some old Sun and MicroVAX machines
play in that
space; I've seen Qbus hardware that talks to drives with card-edge
connectors and I've seen SCSI-to-cardedge interfaces on Suns of
Sun-3/260 vintage. I don't know the details of ST506, ESDI, and all
that, but it strikes me as at least _possible_ that something in that
line might be able to help.
If the hard disk is an XT ST506/412 interfaced drive, using the original
OEM IBM hard disk controller (made by Xebec), then it can be easily
switched to another XT using the original OEM IBM hard disk controller.
Other hard disk controllers, including other models from Xebec!, may not
recognize the format!
Other controllers could probably read at a sector level, iff you're
willing to write some minor INT13h routines. (some number sectors from
0, some from 1, etc.)
AT hard drives (OEM controller is WD) seem to be reasonably
interchangeable from one machine to another.
ESDI (mostly WD -7 controllers) will probably interchange.
RLL will often not work with a different make controller.
7:28 p.m.
On 11/12/15 4:00 PM, Mouse wrote:
However, I _think_ some old Sun and MicroVAX machines
play in that
space; I've seen Qbus hardware that talks to drives with card-edge
connectors and I've seen SCSI-to-cardedge interfaces on Suns of
Sun-3/260 vintage. I don't know the details of ST506, ESDI, and all
that, but it strikes me as at least _possible_ that something in that
line might be able to help.
Not really. Sun used Adaptec 4000's for MFM and Emulex MD21 for ESDI
DEC did its own thing, Emulex sold into that space with MFM/ESDI but
with their own formats.
Dave G's MFM emulator could read it, but just finding a serial block
transfer program that can cope with bad sectors would probably be easiest.
It wouldn't even be that difficult to write one if the system still knows
about the disk geometry in the CMOS RAM and you can use BIOS calls.
3:52 p.m.
On 11/12/2015 01:54 PM, Jules Richardson wrote:
As per subject line, does anyone know of any util that
will back up
an x86 PC running some variant of DOS (MS, Compaq etc.) via rs232 to
a remote system? (Linux preferable on the remote, but other options
exist)
I'm not finding anything via Google, but it seems like the sort of
thing that some of the folks here may have done for their systems in
the past.
I'm thinking something that will do a sector-by-sector transfer from
a given partition (maybe only in-use sectors, implying some minor
intelligence on the remote end to covert into a raw image, but "send
everything" mentality is better than nothing) - extra points for
retrying bad sectors.
Any particular reason that RS232C has to be the linkup? There are
plenty of external drives that can use the parallel port with regular
software. For example, hook up a ZIP drive.
Alternatively, you could boot DOS from floppy with INTERLINK/INTERSVR
installed and use another DOS/WIN machine to do your backup.
I'm certain that options abound.
--Chuck
13 Nov
13 Nov
5:08 p.m.
On 11/12/2015 05:52 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 11/12/2015 01:54 PM, Jules Richardson wrote:
Just lowest common denominator and based on what I have sitting around here
(e.g. I don't have any MCA Ethernet boards, or ISA ones that will work on
an 8 bit XT-type bus, only 16 bit).
As per subject line, does anyone know of any util
that will back up
an x86 PC running some variant of DOS (MS, Compaq etc.) via rs232 to
a remote system? (Linux preferable on the remote, but other options
exist)
I'm not finding anything via Google, but it seems like the sort of
thing that some of the folks here may have done for their systems in
the past.
I'm thinking something that will do a sector-by-sector transfer from
a given partition (maybe only in-use sectors, implying some minor
intelligence on the remote end to covert into a raw image, but "send
everything" mentality is better than nothing) - extra points for
retrying bad sectors.
Any particular reason that RS232C has to be the linkup? There are plenty
of external drives that can use the parallel port with regular software.
For example, hook up a ZIP drive.
Hmm, I *might* know where there's one of those available - I'm not sure
about cartridges, though (or if it's actually in working condition). The
backup operation would certainly be quicker, and I am a bit concerned
whether some of the old ST506/412 drives that I have will remain running
for the length of time needed to do a serial transfer.
Alternatively, you could boot DOS from floppy with
INTERLINK/INTERSVR
installed and use another DOS/WIN machine to do your backup.
My assumption there was that Interlink needs a newer version of DOS, and
that some of these systems that I have may be incompatible, but maybe it's
worth me putting that to the test.
I'm certain that options abound.
Yes, I'm sure - just figured I'd ask here as it seems like the sort of nut
that will already have been cracked :-)
Vintage PCs are just a pain - new enough to make significant use of hard
disk technology, but old enough that getting the data off them isn't quite
as trivial as it likely would be on a much newer machine. I do find them
*just* interesting enough to make it worthwhile trying to create a snapshot
of how they were used, though (compared to the Win95-and-newer age where
it's all so incredibly dull)
cheers
Jules
5:10 p.m.
On Fri, Nov 13, 2015 at 5:08 PM, Jules Richardson <
jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote:
On 11/12/2015 05:52 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
FWIW, DOS 6.xx will boot on anything 100% PC-compatible, 8088 on up, and it
shouldn't have a problem reading filesystems created by earlier DOS
versions. Assuming you can write a bootable floppy and get INTERLNK onto
it, that would probably be the easiest option.
- Josh
On 11/12/2015 01:54 PM, Jules Richardson wrote:
>
Alternatively, you could boot DOS from floppy with INTERLINK/INTERSVR
installed and use another DOS/WIN machine to do
your backup.
My assumption there was that Interlink needs a newer version of DOS, and
that some of these systems that I have may be incompatible, but maybe it's
worth me putting that to the test.
I'm certain that options abound.
Yes, I'm sure - just figured I'd ask here as it seems like the sort of nut
that will already have been cracked :-)
Vintage PCs are just a pain - new enough to make significant use of hard
disk technology, but old enough that getting the data off them isn't quite
as trivial as it likely would be on a much newer machine. I do find them
*just* interesting enough to make it worthwhile trying to create a snapshot
of how they were used, though (compared to the Win95-and-newer age where
it's all so incredibly dull)
cheers
Jules
9:56 p.m.
On 11/13/2015 05:10 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
FWIW, DOS 6.xx will boot on anything 100%
PC-compatible, 8088 on up, and it
shouldn't have a problem reading filesystems created by earlier DOS
versions. Assuming you can write a bootable floppy and get INTERLNK onto
it, that would probably be the easiest option.
A couple of weeks ago, I dug out an old XT with a Quantum Q540 drive in
it. It didn't want to start at first, but a couple of tapes on the side
of the HDA caused the drive to spin up and come ready.
Not wanting to tempt fate, I copied over the Interlink files from DOS
6.2 onto the XT system and booted a P3 system here running Win98SE and
connected them with a Laplink parallel cable (I've still got a box of
them). I think I ran interlnk on the XT and intersvr on the 98SE one
(or maybe it was the reverse). At any rate I discovered that it was
indeed possible to transfer files over even though the XT was running
DOS 4.00 and the 98SE was running from a FAT32 partition.
So yes, it can be done. Just in case, I also had a network card in the
XT (an Artisoft AE/2T) and MSLANMAN ready. But I didn't need it.
I do hope the Q540 will keep running for at least another decade, but if
it doesn't, I've got the files backed up. I can always run it with an
XTIDE card and a small CF card, if worse comes to worst.
--Chuck
14 Nov
14 Nov
7:52 a.m.
On 11/13/2015 11:56 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
connected them with a Laplink parallel cable (I've
still got a box of
them).
Roughly what length are the cables? And do you know if they do anything
special internally regarding shielding of the data lines?
I think I should probably wire one up, and I have various old printer
cables etc. laying around to use for donor parts, but I expect that data
skew is a problem over any significant distance.
(I'm not sure if a clone of intersvr exists for Linux, but I *think* I can
run dosemu and map it to the native parallel port anyway)
cheers
Jules
8:33 a.m.
> connected them with a Laplink parallel cable
(I've still got a box of
> them).
On Sat, 14 Nov 2015, Jules Richardson wrote:
Roughly what length are the cables? And do you know if
they do anything
special internally regarding shielding of the data lines?
They, and those of other similar products, were 3 to 6 feet long. There
is no special shielding requirement up to about 10 feet, or unless you
have extreme electrical noise next to them.
I think I should probably wire one up, and I have
various old printer cables
etc. laying around to use for donor parts, but I expect that data skew is a
problem over any significant distance.
So, bring the two computers to within 10 feet of each other.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LapLink_cable
Before MICROS~1 included an imitation in MS-DOS 6.00, . . .
Traveling Software created "Laplink"
8:37 a.m.
On 11/14/2015 07:52 AM, Jules Richardson wrote:
On 11/13/2015 11:56 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
For my own product, way back in the dark old days, I designed one from
scratch and contracted for a couple hundred from a cable house. When
Laplink came out, I was surprised to find that it used exactly my setup.
How's that for coincidence?
So I changed my further orders to use the commodity LL cables--at about
half the price. Not as rugged as my design, but they worked fine.
Interlink uses the same cable.
All were 2m in length. I think 12 conductor commodity foil-shielded
cable will do the trick. Basically, you've got 4 data lines in each
direction, plus strobe and ground. It is possible (I don't know if
Interlink supports it) with PS/2 style bidirectional printer ports, to
do a full 8 bit transfer in both directions, but it can get touchy on
setup. The 4-bit cables nearly always work.
So a length of cable, 2 DB25M connectors and Bob's your uncle.
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/142324
MIcrosoft calls/called it "Direct Cable Connection" and is supported
through Windows XP (Vista dropped it).
--Chuck
connected them with a Laplink parallel cable
(I've still got a box of
them).
Roughly what length are the cables? And do you know if they do anything
special internally regarding shielding of the data lines? 
13 Nov
13 Nov
5:34 p.m.
On Fri, Nov 13, 2015 at 5:08 PM, Jules Richardson <
jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote:
Vintage PCs are just a pain - new enough to make
significant use of hard
disk technology, but old enough that getting the data off them isn't quite
as trivial as it likely would be on a much newer machine. I do find them
*just* interesting enough to make it worthwhile trying to create a snapshot
of how they were used, though (compared to the Win95-and-newer age where
it's all so incredibly dull)
Vintage PCs are ot my field of expertise, so just a random thought..
Could you put a 2nd disk drive in the machine, and copy the disk image to
it?
-- Charles
12 Nov
12 Nov
6:58 p.m.
On Thu, Nov 12, 2015, Jules Richardson wrote:
As per subject line, does anyone know of any util that will back up an x86
PC running some variant of DOS (MS, Compaq etc.) via rs232 to a remote
system? (Linux preferable on the remote, but other options exist)
I'm not finding anything via Google, but it seems like the sort of thing
that some of the folks here may have done for their systems in the past.
I'm thinking something that will do a sector-by-sector transfer from a given
partition (maybe only in-use sectors, implying some minor intelligence on
the remote end to covert into a raw image, but "send everything" mentality
is better than nothing) - extra points for retrying bad sectors.
cheers
Jules
I've been pondering a way to do this with an Atari ST hard drive, too.
--
Eric Christopherson
7:19 p.m.
Eric Christopherson wrote:
On Thu, Nov 12,
2015, Jules Richardson wrote:
As per subject line, does anyone know of any util
that will back up an x86
PC running some variant of DOS (MS, Compaq etc.) via rs232 to a remote
system? (Linux preferable on the remote, but other options exist)
I'm not finding anything via Google, but it seems like the sort of thing
that some of the folks here may have done for their systems in the past.
I'm thinking something that will do a sector-by-sector transfer from a given
partition (maybe only in-use sectors, implying some minor intelligence on
the remote end to covert into a raw image, but "send everything" mentality
is better than nothing) - extra points for retrying bad sectors.
cheers
Jules
I've been pondering a way to do this with an Atari ST hard drive, too.
14 Nov
14 Nov
10:28 a.m.
Jules Richardson <jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> writes:
As per subject line, does anyone know of any util that
will back up an
x86 PC running some variant of DOS (MS, Compaq etc.) via rs232 to a
remote system?
I used to like TwinExpress, which has both MS-DOS and Amiga versions.
Maybe it'd run under DOSBox?
http://aminet.net/package/misc/emu/TWINEXPRESS
It's filesystem-based rather than block-based, though. And I suspect you
might have some difficulty registering it now, although the shareware
demo version is perfectly functional...
--
Adam Sampson <ats at offog.org> <http://offog.org/>
3:49 p.m.
A parallel port based solution is widely usable and portable too. A
parallel port Zip drive with the PalmZip drivers will work even on an 8088
class machine. A Xircom PE3 Ethernet adapter will give you network access
at speeds over 30KB/sec when on the slowest machines without even having to
open the case.
3326
days inactive
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22 comments
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cc＠informatik.uni-stuttgart.de -
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