I meant isn't the Mac din size (the one I thought you were refering to since you were talking about building an adaptor for a mac telenet connector), isn't THAT a mini-din. I always thought the mac serial size (as well as things like ADB, PS/2, S-Video...) were Mini-Din, and things like MIDI, AT Keyboards, stuff like that was just plain DIN. It always made sense to me, since the two styles are very different in overall size... but then, I always thought a D shell 9 pin connector, as found on things like the Mac Plus mouse port, was a DB-9, where it is really a DE-9... so maybe the mini vs large dins have two different names too. I am fairly sure MCM also sells female DIN connectors in various pin counts, as well as the mini-din ones. -chris <http://www.mythtech.net>