----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Kennedy" <chris(a)mainecoon.com> To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Sent: Monday, April 10, 2000 1:43 PM Subject: OT: Slips (was Re: !Re: Nuke Redmond!) They also are good for teaching the reason behind the philosophy of using rudder and not aileron to pick up a dropped wing when stalling out of a (say) climbing turn. Unlike your generic PA-28 Cherokees and some others they WILL try and snap savagely if you try. I have chatted with some very startled Piper trained pilots in the process of endorsement for Cessnas after they had a first hand demonstration of this in a C150, which will try and snap-roll inverted if provoked in this manner. And it's a LOT quicker than 6 deg/sec in a snap, probably closer to 40. I learnt to fly in a C150 and moved onto Pipers later, I'm glad it was that way around. I never got used to the flaps in a Cherokee as opposed to the ones in a Cessna though, the first time I used flaps in a PA28-180 I could barely feel the effect and thought they weren't working properly. (C150's have flaps like a garage door, and there is a distinct pitch down & deceleration when you crank them out.) Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob(a)stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au ICQ: 1970476

----- Original Message ----- From: <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Sent: Monday, April 10, 2000 11:28 PM Subject: Re: Slips (was Re: !Re: Nuke Redmond!) and soft. There is certainly a fairly wide variation between supposedly identical aircraft. The one I learned in was reasonably old, and I did a reval in a really old one some years later. The somewhat newer one would snap pretty hard if stalled under power in a climbing turn and tried to use aileron, it was very tame as long as you kept the aileron neutral, and picked it up with a bootful of rudder. The older one would snap quite savagely in any sort of high wing load configuration, even when using the proper technique. Both were basic trainers, so it likely that the older one in particular had more than it's share of heavy landings and was perhaps a bit out of whack. Very. One of the guys I spoke too was literally chalk white when he got out of the aircraft. After years of flying a docile little Cherokee 140 he'd never experienced either a stall related snap or seen the effect of aileron on a dropped wing in a Cessna. About sums it up. I did a Cherokee endorsement when I moved to Broken Hill in the 70's, and all they had was Cherokees, I used to fly a Cherokee Arrow (PA28-180-Retractable) home on some weekends, it was a nice ride. But the short field performance sucked and you can't taxi them through gates up to a house. (Both very important in a bush aircraft in this country.) I did an endorsement on a Victa Airtourer (looks a bit like a 2 seat AA5) locally (then - we sold the factory to New Zealand, then the Air Force started buying them as trainers - figures). Nice little kite, fully aerobatic, with a very serious roll rate, though a bit underpowered (100) the RAAF variant, the Airtrainer, had a much bigger engine. Unusual control setup, instead of dual's it had a single stick with a spade grip in the middle of the cockpit and a central throttle. Easy once you get used to it. Was a lot of fun to fly, I first learnt how to spin in that, since spins are classed as an aerobatic manouevre in this country - and a stock C150 isn't cleared for them - they teach you how to recover from an INCIPIENT spin instead. Not sure I'm comfortable with that, spins are very disconcerting the first couple of times you encounter them, it should be a requirement. I have more hours in C150's than anything else, I liked them a lot. (First plane, first car, first computer, first love - they all seem to be special) One day when I am rich and famous (yeah, right) I'm going to buy me one. I'd like the one I learnt in if I can, last time I looked in a register VH-KQY was still doing mustering on a station in Western Australia. Been there since 85. At least it's still flying..... Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob(a)stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au ICQ: 1970476

----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Ford" <mikeford(a)socal.rr.com> To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 4:03 PM Subject: Re: Slips [OT] jealous airport outfit Don't have many kites like that down here, and pylon racing is not big. (I think there was a warbird (A Harvard?) pranged enroute to one in Tasmania last year sometime.) There are a few flyable warbirds in various semi-private hands, but Mustangs, Spit's and the like are very thin on the ground. I think there are less than half a dozen Mustangs in the country, and only 2 flyable Spits. a Been a while for me too. I miss it badly, but I just can't afford it anymore. all Whoa!! Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob(a)stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au ICQ: 1970476

Geoff Roberts wrote: When I was a primary student it was standard practice to do stall training in PA28s at 3000 feet AGL. Then came the Tomahawk, with it's Really Nifty Wing (literally - it was a technical work of art) That Wasn't Built The Way The Engineers Designed Nor Like It Was On The Certification Articles Given To The FAA. Without getting mind-numbingly technical the airfoil required a stiff wing structure to work well at high angles of attack but as manufactured it was actually quite soft and would literally deform at high alpha, with the result that one wing would stall well in advance of the other in a nondeterministic and quite violent fashion. We learned that being half-a-ball out was sufficent to make the airplane perform a perfect, if uncommanded, snap entry into a spin. This discovery was made by the chief pilot of the FBO (one of these 22,000 hour Decathalon drivers who had perfected the "I hate talking to ATC" voice and made one entry a year into his log book based on how much money he made) with an eight-hour primary student in the left seat. He came boiling in off the ramp with eyes like saucers: "The...Tomahawk...IT SPINS!" Consequently all students had to demonstrate spin proficency before being allowed to solo in The Tinfoil Pig, which was an experience in itself. Unlike the 150 which has an empenage of consequence, the Tomahawk's is attached to the rest of the airframe via a stylish little wasp-waisted thing which has the structural integrity of cooked pasta. When you spin a Tomahawk it's like sitting inside a barrel while someone whacks on the side with a baseball bat; if you sneak a peek through the rear window you'll se why: the empenage deforms (well, lags behind the spin) until it gets wound up enough that it snaps back into place with a resounding "bang". The problem was eventually "fixed" through an AD which required attaching stall strips, a kludge which causes the wing to stall well in advance of it's design stall angle of attack and before the wing would start to deform (think "It's not a bug, it's a feature"). [snip] Which version of the 28R? The only version that I found to be a ground-loving pig was the Arrow IV with that god-awful T-tail that the marketing guys thought looked so stylish but which moved the elevator out of both the propwash and ground effect. Both short and soft field departures suffered (you could hold the yoke in your lap but the nosewheel wouldn't unweight until, oh, 40 knots) and the famous short field landing over 100' obstical for the commercial checkride was more like a carrier landing as you ran out of elevator authority just about the moment the mains touched. [snip] In the US spins aren't required for any certificate. The CFI ride requires either that you demonstrate spin competency OR have a logbook endorsement indicating that you've previously demonstrated it. In practice the only time they'll make you demo one is if you fail to harp on stall recognition and avoidance during your checkride. If you take your checkride with an FAA examiner (as opposed to the somewhat insane DE I used) they'll NEVER ask you to demo one. Part of the rational (I use the term loosely) for not teaching spins is that, according to The Commandments Handed Down By The Burning Bush Of Oklahoma City (the FAA) we are to teach stall recognition and avoidance, hence people will never see a full stall, hence they won't ever see a spin. When you ask about the classic problem of someone mashing on the rudder because they overshot their base-to-final turn you get the "well, they'd be too low to recover anyway" lecture. I'll teach them to anyone who asks, but we'll usually do wingovers and cross-control stalls first. Cheers, Chris -- Chris Kennedy chris(a)mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97

Geoff Roberts wrote: Certainly compared to a PA28. It's *really* difficult to get a Cherokee uncoordinated in a turn because of it's asymmetic ailerons, but as a consequence what you say is very true; people who do their primary training in Cherokees tend to have very lazy feet. For those people what I do is have them fly the 150 with the elevator in their lap, sitting on their hands and using their feet to pick up the wing in a sort of falling-leaf maneuver. I prefer that to the "see what happens if you're naughty" approach of flying into a spin, mostly because I neve know when I'm gonna have to club them with the clipboard to get them to give up the airplane. Yeah, although there's a literally a few seconds there where, even though you're at the incipient point of spin, you can drag the 150 out -- a push with full opposite rudder and aileron works, or you can just lower the nose and fly out the other side. I just tried a series of climbing turn and cross control stalls in a 150B and found that I had maybe a second power-on, two seconds power off to do something about the developing spin -- although once it did develop it wound up pretty quickly :-) I want to say it's 40 degrees vs. 25 degrees max flaps, C150 vs. PA28, bud I'd have to check. The Cherokee's flaps aren't a great way to get drag, but they do help with lift, which is a good thing given that the PA28 wants to fall out of the sky and lands fast, as opposed to the 150 which will drift all the way into the next county and lands almost as slow as a Cub :-) Cheers, Chris -- Chris Kennedy chris(a)mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97

As a pilot I figured going into gory detail was excess. As a C150 driver and verious gliders, your wrong. Slips allow application of the airframe to get drag, thsi is very useful with some planes that have marginal flaps (or none at all). Even with flaps a slip can be use for additional drag or forward visibility enhancement. C150 roll rate is not very fast and while the 6/sec degree number is likely low i've barrel rolled one and they are slooowwww. Nothing like a clipped wing cub or Citabria. As to spins, i've done a few, after all it's the only legal acro for a C150 commuter of any significant degree. Yes it does roll out easily. Allison