17 Dec
2005
17 Dec
'05
2:48 a.m.
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 00:20:19 +0000 (GMT)
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Subject: Re: Archiving Software
<snip>
> ImageDisk seems like a definite step in the right
direction - it's certainly
> done a brilliant job when I've tried it.
It's a pity the source code hasn't been
released. I really don't like
using programs that I've not read through...
Ahh, there's just no pleasing some people... ;-)
> Getting the data off (and knowing you've
captured it all) and onto modern
> media is probably more important than what tools someone may use in the
> future to interpret the data. Providing it's all captured of course!
I would think that any archive format that is complete
enough to allow a
working version of the disk to be recreated for the original machine
would also allow individual files to be extracted given the right tools
(if only because recreating the a disk for the original machine, then
using it on that machine would allow you to do just that).
-tony
Well, that kind of misses the point of my original question. For a system-specific
bootable disk, imaging is probably the only answer since if you can't boot your
system you can't load the image into it (although Dave Dunfield has even done
this for several systems by loading the bootstrap & system file via the monitor
and console port). In the case of systems that can have both 5" and/or 8" FDDs,
it probably makes sense to image the 5" version since it's probably easier to
temporarily add a 5" drive to an 8" system than adding an 8" drive to the
PC.
What I was looking for were answers to the following problems:
1 - I have some hard-sectored disks for my Vector MZ; how do I archive those?
2 - Assuming I do, how do I or you recreate them?
3 - I have a SSSD 8" CP/M Visicalc distribution disk; how do I send it to you in a
way that you can re-create a 5" disk for your SystemX (especially if you only
have one serial port)?
4 - I have a version of Cromix+ for Cromemco on DSDD 8" disks, consisting
of one bootable disk and a tar file spanning three more disks; again,
what do I put on my site or email you so that you can install it on your
System 1 with only a 5" FDD?
5 - And just to round out the list, I have a copy of Unix for the Cromemco, which
is on one bootable 5" disk and a tar file on a DC600 tape. What do I do
with that (serious replies only pls :)?
mike
17 Dec
17 Dec
9:18 a.m.
1 - I have some hard-sectored disks for my Vector MZ;
how do I archive those?
Write a set of programs to transfer the disks sector by sector to the PC over a
serial link. This is what I did with the NorthStar system and it works very well.
2 - Assuming I do, how do I or you recreate them?
Asuming the guy has a bootable system, he can use the programs you write to
recreate the disks (assuming you made them two way). Gettng that first boot disk
is trickier - What did for the NorthStar system was to make a complete "in
memory"
image of the OS and serial transfer client, so that you could load it (via a bootstrap
loader entered through the front panel or a ROM monitor) and write out the disks.
This may require the "end user" to drop in a little ROM monitor to his system
long
enough to make the boot disks - this is far easier to do than to try and recreate a
hard-sector disk by other means.
3 - I have a SSSD 8" CP/M Visicalc distribution
disk; how do I send it to you in a
way that you can re-create a 5" disk for your SystemX (especially if you only
have one serial port)?
You don't - archive the 8" disk as an image. It's *FAR* more important to get
the
original data/media archived then it is to be creating custom formats for people.
Once the data is archived and available, then you have a number of options when
you want to read the data in the future:
- Dig up an 8" drive and attach it to your PC, recreate the original disk, then
connect the drive to your SystemX, boot/mount it and pull the files off.
- Variation of above: Use a 5.25" HD drive (electrically the same as an 8"
drive).
- Use this list to find someone who can move the files for you.
- Using the documented format of the image, and knowlege of your OS file
structure, write a utility to extract the individual files that you need directly
from the image.
- Using the documented format of the image, extract the sectors and write them
to an IDE drive, Flash card, or whatever is suitable at the time that you do this,
attach the device to your system, and write/patch-in a driver to read the
"new"
media as an 8" drive.
- Other ideas that may come to mind at the time.
The alternative, is to never get around do backing up the data because you can't
think of or find the time to do it in a completely universal fashion, which severely
limits the future options of anyone who does not have the disk (or yours when the
disk becomes unreadable):
- Hopeing that you will be able to find someone who has made images of these
disks so that you can explore means of recovering the data.
4 - I have a version of Cromix+ for Cromemco on DSDD
8" disks, consisting
of one bootable disk and a tar file spanning three more disks; again,
what do I put on my site or email you so that you can install it on your
System 1 with only a 5" FDD?
Exactly as above.
5 - And just to round out the list, I have a copy of
Unix for the Cromemco, which
is on one bootable 5" disk and a tar file on a DC600 tape. What do I do
with that (serious replies only pls :)?
Image the bootable disk, and copy the TAR file to a PC and archive it with the
image. Or if possible, copy it to other "target system" disks and image the
lot.
Just make sure that you preserve the data and document what exactly you did.
Then you have at least provided an option for people in the future to find their
own means of converting that data into something that they can use - otherwise,
once the disk and/or tape goes bad the system is completely lost (and even before
this happens, it's unavailable to anyone else).
Regards,
Dave
--
dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield
dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com
com Collector of vintage computing equipment:
http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html
8:51 p.m.
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 00:20:19 +0000 (GMT)
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Subject: Re: Archiving Software
<snip>
I don't normally moan about this. I do one of three things :
1) Find an alternative program with source available.
2) Write a program to do the job (and if I distribute it, it will be
open-source)
3) Do the job ome other way entirely (maybe not even using a computer).
Most (if not all) of us here realise the value of proper technical
documentation, schematics, source listings, etc. It therefore surpises me
that people write programs to support classic computers and _don't_
release the source code. Ditto for stuff for amateur radio (which
according to my license is for 'self training in wireless telegraphy',
it's a lot easier to learn about how something works if you have the
sourc code for the programs involved....
> ImageDisk seems like a definite step in the
right direction - it's certainly
> done a brilliant job when I've tried it.
It's a pity the source code hasn't been
released. I really don't like
using programs that I've not read through...
Ahh, there's just no pleasing some people... ;-)
1 - I have some hard-sectored disks for my Vector MZ; how do I archive those?
The PC disk hardware plain can't read or write those AFAIK. You would
have to use the Vector's disk controller, and transfer the bits to a PC,
e.g. via a serial port. You can then store them on the PC.
2 - Assuming I do, how do I or you recreate them?
You would have to do the same thing in reverse -- transfer the data to a
real Vevtor, then write to disk. If there is no way to enter a program on
the Vector, and you have no bootable disk for it at all, this could be
'interesting' (one way would be to provide a ROM image that replaces the
bootstrap ROM of the Vector, you would have to program that into an
EPROM. plug it into the machine, that program could then load the data
from the PC and put it onto disk. Once you've made
a bootable disk that
way, put the original ROM back in the Vector and boot it.
3 - I have a SSSD 8" CP/M Visicalc distribution disk; how do I send it to you in a
way that you can re-create a 5" disk for your SystemX (especially if you only
have one serial port)?
The CP/M filesystem is well documented. If you made a raw image of this
disk (e.g. with Imagedisk), you could run another program on a PC to
extract individual files from it. You could then put those files together
again to make a disk image for whatever machine you want.
4 - I have a version of Cromix+ for Cromemco on DSDD 8" disks, consisting
of one bootable disk and a tar file spanning three more disks; again,
what do I put on my site or email you so that you can install it on your
System 1 with only a 5" FDD?
Nasty! Presumably a program on the bootable disk (which reads in the tar
file and unpacks it) differs between the 8" and 5.25" versions. I think I
would suggest findin an 8" drive :-)
5 - And just to round out the list, I have a copy of Unix for the Cromemco, which
is on one bootable 5" disk and a tar file on a DC600 tape. What do I do
with that (serious replies only pls :)?
Image thr disk e.g. with Imagedisk, define (or find) some way to archive
the tape data in a way that the tape can be recreated from it (preserving
things like block sizes).
I think the important thing is to preserve tbe data in such a way that
_at least_ the original media can be recreated from it. Converting it for
other versions of the machine (or other machines) is a secondary problem.
-tony
10:11 p.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
Most (if not all) of us here realise the value of
proper technical
documentation, schematics, source listings, etc. It therefore surpises me
that people write programs to support classic computers and _don't_
release the source code. Ditto for stuff for amateur radio (which
according to my license is for 'self training in wireless telegraphy',
it's a lot easier to learn about how something works if you have the
sourc code for the programs involved....
Yep, but I suppose it only needs for you to get burned once for it to put you
off trying again.
And given Dave's statement about NDAs, the source *is* there if someone wants
to port it to another system or use it to enhance their own copy - it's just
not publicly available to everyone via the website.
cheers
Jules
11:16 p.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
All I can say is that I stopped distributing _binary_ versions of my
programs because I got too many questions from total idiots. Supply
source only weeded out those that hadn't got a clue at all (in that they
wouldn't even try to compile it).
I've distributed a number of things as source-only under the GPL (which
means I don't _have_ to support anything). I have not had one stupid
question. I have had questions from people who are trying to do things
that the program was never designed to do, what I do then is explain what
I did, why, and maybe give some hints as to how to modify it. And in the
vast majority of cases, the other chap has managed to get the program to
do what he wants
Most (if not all) of us here realise the value of
proper technical
documentation, schematics, source listings, etc. It therefore surpises me
that people write programs to support classic computers and _don't_
release the source code. Ditto for stuff for amateur radio (which
according to my license is for 'self training in wireless telegraphy',
it's a lot easier to learn about how something works if you have the
sourc code for the programs involved....
Yep, but I suppose it only needs for you to get burned once for it to put you
off trying again. And given Dave's statement about NDAs, the source
*is* there if someone wants
to port it to another system or use it to enhance their own copy - it's just
The reason I want to read the source is that (of course) I'd like to
produce a linus program to read obscure disks (and yes, that would be
totally open-source). Now, I can't instantly see how to analyse a disk
format using the 765 controller. I could probably work it out, but I've
got other projects on...
I would want to read the source to Imagedisk to learn how Dave did it.
Not to copy his program, but to get ideas (as I have done many times in
the past, I may and, and I do always acknowledge the source of said
hints). But I am not prepares to enter into any kind of NDA about this,
since I don't fancy the idea of a legal battle if Dave (or whoever)
decides I have disclosed part of their code in my program.
-tony
7:23 p.m.
I would want to read the source to Imagedisk to learn
how Dave did it.
Not to copy his program, but to get ideas (as I have done many times in
the past, I may and, and I do always acknowledge the source of said
hints). But I am not prepares to enter into any kind of NDA about this,
since I don't fancy the idea of a legal battle if Dave (or whoever)
decides I have disclosed part of their code in my program.
As stated previously, I don't have commercial goals for ImageDisk.
NDA is the wrong term, but it was a quick and easy word to try and
get the message across.
All I want at this point is for anyone who wants an "early copy" of the
source to agree:
1) Not to turn around and post it somewhere else (ie: don't give it
out until I am ready to generally release the code).
2) Not to pester me with platform/compiler issues, or for help making
non bug-fix changes/additions.
--
dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield
dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com
com Collector of vintage computing equipment:
http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html
6961
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5 comments
4 participants
participants (4)
-
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
dave04a＠dunfield.com -
dm561＠torfree.net -
julesrichardsonuk＠yahoo.co.uk