22 Aug
2004
22 Aug
'04
9:06 a.m.
The long Torx screwdriver needed for Macs is available at Sears for about $10.
They have the PC version for about $6, but of course the Mac version works
better.
10:07 a.m.
Am 24 Aug 2004 14:27 meinte David V. Corbin:
>>> The long Torx screwdriver needed for Macs
is available at
>>> Sears for about $10.
>>> They have the PC version for about $6, but of course the
>>> Mac version works better.
Searching around for a PC [or compatible] that NEEDS a
Torx................
jUST BUY ANY sIEMENS:
gRUSS
h:
--
VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen
http://www.vcfe.org/
11:09 a.m.
Lots of early Compacs did- they even supplied Compac branded (maybe
really Xcelite?) multi-bit Torx drivers for a while. Still have one
round here somewhere.
DaveB, NZ
----- Original Message -----
From: "David V. Corbin" <dvcorbin(a)optonline.net>
To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2004 6:27 AM
Subject: RE: What fun from a Macintosh SE
>>
>> The long Torx screwdriver needed for Macs is available at
>> Sears for about $10.
>> They have the PC version for about $6, but of course the
>> Mac version works better.
Searching around for a PC [or compatible] that NEEDS a
Torx................
11:58 a.m.
Rumor has it that Dave Brown may have mentioned these words:
Lots of early Compacs did- they even supplied Compac
branded (maybe really
Xcelite?) multi-bit Torx drivers for a while. Still have one round here
somewhere.
IBM external 360K 5.25" floppy drives -- don't remember the model number,
but I had one hacked into my CoCo for quite a while (and could again, if I
had the room). T10 or T15 Security Torx.
I got the screws out with my leatherman (as I had no security torx drivers
oh so long ago) -- bent the pin over enough so I could get traction with
the small regular screwdriver in 2 of the star points of the torx.
Some early Tandy machines had non-security torx screws as well, but they
might have been like the later Compaq ones, which could use a regular
(blade) screwdriver as well.
Laterz,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan
sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy...
zmerch(a)30below.com | ...in oxymoron!"
11:56 a.m.
>>> The long Torx screwdriver needed for Macs
is available at
>>> Sears for about $10.
>>> They have the PC version for about $6, but of course the
>>> Mac version works better.
On Tue, 24 Aug 2004, David V. Corbin wrote:
Searching around for a PC [or compatible] that NEEDS a
Torx................
The original Compaqs used Torx for damn near everything.
The PC (not "ANY PC", but 5150) uses Torx screws on the power supply.
"Security" Torx even! (with a tiny post up the middle)
Boring a hole up the middle of Torx bits wasn't especially easy.
Yes, I can remove those screws without the correct bit.
But I do not damage fasteners in non-emergency situations.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
12:06 p.m.
Fred Cisin wrote:
A friend of mine was a professional locksmith. He was under the
impression that only professional locksmiths were able to obtain
security Torx bits. He was horrified to learn that I had a full
set, obtained at a hamfest years earlier.
>>>
The long Torx screwdriver needed for Macs is available at
>>> Sears for about $10.
>>> They have the PC version for about $6, but of course the
>>> Mac version works better.
On Tue, 24 Aug 2004, David V. Corbin
wrote:
Searching around for a PC [or compatible] that
NEEDS a
Torx................
The original Compaqs used Torx for damn near everything.
The PC (not "ANY PC", but 5150) uses Torx screws on the power supply.
"Security" Torx even! (with a tiny post up the middle)
Boring a hole up the middle of Torx bits wasn't especially easy.
12:25 p.m.
> Boring a hole up the middle of Torx bits
wasn't especially easy.
On Tue, 24 Aug 2004, Bill Sudbrink wrote:
A friend of mine was a professional locksmith. He was
under the
impression that only professional locksmiths were able to obtain
security Torx bits. He was horrified to learn that I had a full
set, obtained at a hamfest years earlier.
20+ years ago (the 5150 came out in 1981),
security torx bits were a bit hard to find around here.
About 10 years ago, they became quite common.
Security Torx does NOT provide much of any real security,
since you can mash down the center post, or in most cases,
just grab the head of the screw with a 5WR Vise-Grip.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
12:31 p.m.
On Tue, Aug 24, 2004 at 02:25:42PM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote:
Security Torx does NOT provide much of any real
security,
since you can mash down the center post, or in most cases,
just grab the head of the screw with a 5WR Vise-Grip.
Specifically with the 5150 PSU, I found that the post was brittle enough
to snap out with the right sized flat-blade screwdriver. A regular Torx
worked after that
(I also rarely damage fasteners in non-emergency situations, but this is
no where near as bad as grabbing it with a pair of vise grips).
-ethan
--
Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 24-Aug-2004 21:20 Z
South Pole Station
PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -82.4 F (-63.6 C) Windchill -115.4 F (-81.90 C)
APO AP 96598 Wind 7.3 kts Grid 069 Barometer 675.7 mb (10788. ft)
Ethan.Dicks(a)amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html
12:37 p.m.
On Tue, 2004-08-24 at 21:25, Fred Cisin wrote:
Security Torx does NOT provide much of any real
security,
since you can mash down the center post, or in most cases,
just grab the head of the screw with a 5WR Vise-Grip.
Or worst-case I usually end up sawing a slot across them with a hacksaw
and then just using a normal flat-blade screwdriver on them.
cheers
Jules
12:49 p.m.
On Tue, 24 Aug 2004, Jules Richardson wrote:
On Tue, 2004-08-24 at 21:25, Fred Cisin wrote:
Dynamite works well. Er, too well :)
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
Security Torx does NOT provide much of any real
security,
since you can mash down the center post, or in most cases,
just grab the head of the screw with a 5WR Vise-Grip.
Or worst-case I usually end up sawing a slot across them with a hacksaw
and then just using a normal flat-blade screwdriver on them.
12:28 p.m.
On Tue, Aug 24, 2004 at 05:06:37PM -0400, Bill Sudbrink wrote:
A friend of mine was a professional locksmith. He was
under the
impression that only professional locksmiths were able to obtain
security Torx bits. He was horrified to learn that I had a full
set, obtained at a hamfest years earlier.
I think I paid $9 for my set at Dayton...
-ethan
--
Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 24-Aug-2004 21:20 Z
South Pole Station
PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -82.4 F (-63.6 C) Windchill -115.4 F (-81.90 C)
APO AP 96598 Wind 7.3 kts Grid 069 Barometer 675.7 mb (10788. ft)
Ethan.Dicks(a)amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html
12:31 p.m.
Rumor has it that Bill Sudbrink may have mentioned these words:
A friend of mine was a professional locksmith. He was
under the
impression that only professional locksmiths were able to obtain
security Torx bits. He was horrified to learn that I had a full
set, obtained at a hamfest years earlier.
Any chance he could get his hands on one of those funky 5-pointed security
torx? Those bastages are a royal bitch to get...
I only want one so I can tighten up my Leatherman Wave. :-\
Laterz,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate."
sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein
zmerch(a)30below.com |
2:58 p.m.
A friend of mine was a professional locksmith. He was under the
impression that only professional locksmiths were able to obtain
security Torx bits. He was horrified to learn that I had a full
set, obtained at a hamfest years earlier.
Over here just about every tool shop sells tamperproof Torx bits (and
tamperproof Allen, tri-wing, Torq, etc). The one that's hard to get is
the System Zero. This looks like an inverse torx (The screw head is male,
with slots round the outside, the driver is female), but it's designed so
that nothing but the right tool will get it out (the sides of the
screwhead taper slightly so that you can't grab it with pliers or a Mole
Wrench (self-locking wrench), for example).
Yes, I have a set of those tools -- one of my EPROM programmer [1] is
assembled with them, for what reason %deity only knows.
[1] A thing called a Ferret. It's a combined EPROM programmer, breakout
box, RS232 / current loop / centronics converter, Z80 computer, strip
printer, etc in a portable case.
-tony
25 Aug
25 Aug
1:25 a.m.
On Tue, 2004-08-24 at 23:58, Tony Duell wrote:
Hmm, I have a feeling my Tektronix used those. It was just possible to
grab them with pliers because of the washer behind them all.
Needless to say they got replaced with something more useful, as I
generally do with all oddball security screws - no sense in making it
hard for myself or someone else to take a apart at a later date! :)
cheers,
Jules
A friend of mine was a professional locksmith. He was under the
impression that only professional locksmiths were able to obtain
security Torx bits. He was horrified to learn that I had a full
set, obtained at a hamfest years earlier.
Over here just about every tool shop sells tamperproof Torx bits (and
tamperproof Allen, tri-wing, Torq, etc). The one that's hard to get is
the System Zero.
24 Aug
24 Aug
12:46 p.m.
On Tue, 24 Aug 2004, Fred Cisin wrote:
Boring a hole up the middle of Torx bits wasn't
especially easy.
Yes, I can remove those screws without the correct bit.
But I do not damage fasteners in non-emergency situations.
Cutting a slot into an otherwise peroperly fitting flat-head screwdriver
will probably do the trick :)
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
1:47 p.m.
> Boring a hole up the middle of Torx bits
wasn't especially easy.
> Yes, I can remove those screws without the correct bit.
> But I do not damage fasteners in non-emergency situations.
On Tue, 24 Aug
2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
Cutting a slot into an otherwise peroperly fitting
flat-head screwdriver
will probably do the trick :)
For emergency use, it'll do, and probably without a NOTICEABLE
amount of damage.
But for a Torx screw, there is no such thing as a
"peroperly fitting flat-head screwdriver".
'course with a little bit of careful grinding on the corners
of the screwdriver, you could make in into a properly fitting
"two-point" Torx driver.
Or decide how much minor damage/wear you are willing to inflict
on fasteners by utilizing a tool that is not quite right.
(Someday I'll complete my set of Whitworth tools)
3:08 p.m.
(Someday I'll complete my set of Whitworth tools)
Complete them? You mean _all_ sizes? I am not sure what the smallest BSW
size it, but there's certainly a 1/8". There is also 5/32", well known to
every UK boy at one time -- it was the screw used in the Meccano sets.
At the top end, I've seen 1+1/2" BSW (used for the hub bearing nut on
some British rear axles), and I am pretty sure it goes well beyond that!
-tony
12:55 p.m.
On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 14:27:00 -0400
"David V. Corbin" <dvcorbin(a)optonline.net> wrote:
All the old Compaq machines used Torx screws. I know, because one of
the first 'upgrades' I used to do on Compaq boxes I intended to use for
anything was to upgrade (downgrade?) all the screws to phillips.
>>
>> The long Torx screwdriver needed for Macs is available at
>> Sears for about $10.
>> They have the PC version for about $6, but of course the
>> Mac version works better.
Searching around for a PC [or compatible] that NEEDS a
Torx................
3:11 p.m.
All the old Compaq machines used Torx screws. I know,
because one of
the first 'upgrades' I used to do on Compaq boxes I intended to use for
anything was to upgrade (downgrade?) all the screws to phillips.
I'vr never had a Torx screw that I can't undo with the right tool, but
I've had far too many Phillips/Pozidriv that I can't shift other than
drilling them out (the most recent one held the Logic 1 PCB in an HP87,
and I didn't want to damage either the case or the PCB...).
Therefroe I fail to see how replacing Torx with Phillips could ever be an
upgrade...
-tony
25 Aug
25 Aug
3:56 p.m.
On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 01:11:21 +0100 (BST)
ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote:
Back when I was an obsessive PC Clone fiddler, all my 'normal' machines
had phillips screws, and the torx driver was a special tool that
normally wasn't on hand. I had phillips drivers all over the place. It
was a significant convenience to get rid of the torx screws.
It's (obviously) open for discussion wether this is good or bad. Those
were 'use' machines, definitely not collectable/preserved machines. I
consider any machine with historical/collectable interest to be of
lesser value if it doesn't have all the original hardware. This goes
back to my days when in tech school when I was always scrounging at
thrift stores for used TV sets to pick up, troubleshoot, and give to
friends. It's a bad sign if any single original screw is missing from
the case. It means someone has been meddling in it before me.
All the old
Compaq machines used Torx screws. I know, because one
of the first 'upgrades' I used to do on Compaq boxes I intended to
use for anything was to upgrade (downgrade?) all the screws to
phillips.
I'vr never had a Torx screw that I can't undo with the right tool, but
I've had far too many Phillips/Pozidriv that I can't shift other than
drilling them out (the most recent one held the Logic 1 PCB in an
HP87, and I didn't want to damage either the case or the PCB...).
Therefroe I fail to see how replacing Torx with Phillips could ever be
an upgrade...
-tony
24 Aug
24 Aug
2:48 p.m.
Searching around for a PC [or compatible] that NEEDS a Torx................
THe PSUs in my true-blue IBMs are assembled with tamperproof Torx screws
(the ones with the pin in the middle). Of course this didn't stop me
taking them apart ;-)....
THe PSU and monitor in my PortabelPC (5155) have some Bristol Spline
screws in them. Now thoese are non-trivial to find tools for in the UK...
-tony
26 Aug
26 Aug
9:10 a.m.
Searching around for a PC [or compatible] that NEEDS a Torx................
THe PSUs in my true-blue IBMs are assembled with tamperproof Torx screws
(the ones with the pin in the middle). Of course this didn't stop me
taking them apart ;-)....
THe PSU and monitor in my PortabelPC (5155) have some Bristol Spline
screws in them. Now thoese are non-trivial to find tools for in the UK...
-tony
25 Aug
25 Aug
1:44 p.m.
Haha, reminds me to tell about a headless screw... has
no slot,
just blank head where slot or hole for the typical screwdriver's tip
to fit in. Tony told me to bite on it with pair of pliers and turn.
They does unscrew. (!!)
I wonder if they were shear-head scews. They had a head once (probably a
male hexagon to be gripped with a normal spanner), but it was designed to
shear off when the screw was fully tightened. They're used for things
like car ignition switches (so a car thief can't easily remove the lock
from the steering column).
That was on PC RT PSU housing.
Now why you'd want to make a PSU so difficult to repair is beyond me...
-tony
3:57 p.m.
On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 23:44:07 +0100 (BST)
ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote:
In the old-line IBM PC PSU's, there was always a big label on the
outside 'No user servicible parts inside' and a non-standard screw
sealing it. Every one that I've opened had a socketed fuse inside.
Haha, reminds
me to tell about a headless screw... has no slot,
just blank head where slot or hole for the typical screwdriver's tip
to fit in. Tony told me to bite on it with pair of pliers and
turn. They does unscrew. (!!)
I wonder if they were shear-head scews. They had a head once (probably
a male hexagon to be gripped with a normal spanner), but it was
designed to shear off when the screw was fully tightened. They're used
for things like car ignition switches (so a car thief can't easily
remove the lock from the steering column).
That was on PC RT PSU housing.
Now why you'd want to make a PSU so difficult to repair is beyond
me...
-tony
9:14 p.m.
In the old-line IBM PC PSU's, there was always a big label on the
outside 'No user servicible parts inside' and a non-standard screw
sealing it. Every one that I've opened had a socketed fuse inside.
Sure.. And you'll find that if that fuse blows there are almost certainly
other component fialed as well (most likely the chopper transistor or one
of the mains rectifier diodes).
-tony
26 Aug
26 Aug
3:53 p.m.
On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 07:14:16 +0100 (BST)
ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote:
The question then is why IBM went to the expense of putting a fuse
connector inside the box. A wiretail fuse surely would be at least a
slight cost savings. I've never seen that fuse blown, personally.
My first 'PC Clone' was made with one of those old 63.5 watt IBM
supplies. In a totally non-matched Leading Edge Model D case. To fit
the supply in such a case, the supply circuit board had to be completely
removed from the steel case and just bolted inside the Model D case.
In the old-line IBM PC PSU's, there was always a big label on the
outside 'No user servicible parts inside' and a non-standard screw
sealing it. Every one that I've opened had a socketed fuse inside.
Sure.. And you'll find that if that fuse blows there are almost
certainly other component fialed as well (most likely the chopper
transistor or one of the mains rectifier diodes).
7:17 p.m.
On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 07:14:16 +0100 (BST)
ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote:
The question then is why IBM went to the expense of putting a fuse
connector inside the box. A wiretail fuse surely would be at least a
slight cost savings. I've never seen that fuse blown, personally.
My first 'PC Clone' was made with one of those old 63.5 watt IBM
supplies. In a totally non-matched Leading Edge Model D case. To fit
the supply in such a case, the supply circuit board had to be completely
removed from the steel case and just bolted inside the Model D case.
In the old-line IBM PC PSU's, there was always a big label on the
outside 'No user servicible parts inside' and a non-standard screw
sealing it. Every one that I've opened had a socketed fuse inside.
Sure.. And you'll find that if that fuse blows there are almost
certainly other component fialed as well (most likely the chopper
transistor or one of the mains rectifier diodes).
7:18 p.m.
Sure.. And
you'll find that if that fuse blows there are almost
certainly other component fialed as well (most likely the chopper
transistor or one of the mains rectifier diodes).
The question then is why IBM went to the expense of putting a fuse
connector inside the box. A wiretail fuse surely would be at least a slight cost savings. I've never seen that fuse
blown, personally.
Nor have I, actually. Annother curious one is the fuse in the PSU of a
Canon SX Laser printer (HP Laserjet 2, etc). It's in fuse clips at one
end of the PSU board, and is accessible without removing the metal case
from the PSU. Canon don't supply any parts for the
internals of the PSU
(IIRC even the case is not available separtely), there's
no PSU
schemmatic in the official service manual. But the fuse is a listed
spare part. Again, I've never seen it blow.
I don't thionk I've ever seen the fuse in the mains side of an SMPSU blow
unless there were other faults in the PSU.
-tony
27 Aug
27 Aug
12:19 p.m.
The question then is why IBM went to the expense of
putting a fuse
connector inside the box. A wiretail fuse surely would be at least a
slight cost savings. I've never seen that fuse blown, personally.
To be honest, pigtailed fuses is major pain in butt to locate new
parts and replace. We stock 95% of typical fuses at our TV shop.
My first 'PC Clone' was made with one of those
old 63.5 watt IBM
supplies. In a totally non-matched Leading Edge Model D case. To fit
the supply in such a case, the supply circuit board had to be completely
removed from the steel case and just bolted inside the Model D case.
UGH! At least have metal cage around that power supply!?
By the way, many of them were made by Zenith for IBM power supplies.
Zenith switching power supplies are awful and bizerre design.
Cheers,
Wizard
26 Aug
26 Aug
7:23 p.m.
The question then is why IBM went to the expense
of putting a fuse
connector inside the box. A wiretail fuse surely would be at least a
slight cost savings. I've never seen that fuse blown, personally.
To be honest, pigtailed fuses is major pain in butt to locate new
parts and replace. We stock 95% of typical fuses at our TV shop. My first 'PC Clone' was made with one of
those old 63.5 watt IBM
supplies. In a totally non-matched Leading Edge Model D case. To fit
the supply in such a case, the supply circuit board had to be completely
removed from the steel case and just bolted inside the Model D case.
UGH! At least have metal cage around that power supply!? By the way, many of them were made by Zenith for IBM
power supplies.
Zenith switching power supplies are awful and bizerre design.
What's wrong with them. I seem to remember tracing out schematics of the
PSUs in my PCs, and I didn't think they were that odd. They're better
than those infernal Boschert 2-stage ones....
-tony
25 Aug
25 Aug
5:58 p.m.
On Wed, 25 Aug 2004, Tony Duell wrote:
Now why you'd want to make a PSU so difficult to
repair is beyond me...
IBM had a simple reason.
If somebody wanted to check for voltage with their tongue,
or similar behavior, IBM didn't want to take the blame.
So,...
they made it hard enough to get into to eliminate MOST of
the people who would hurt themselves.
26 Aug
26 Aug
10:45 a.m.
From: ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 23:44:07 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Re: What fun from a Macintosh SE
Reply-to: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
> Haha, reminds me to tell about a headless
screw... has no slot,
> just blank head where slot or hole for the typical screwdriver's tip
> to fit in. Tony told me to bite on it with pair of pliers and turn.
> They does unscrew. (!!)
I wonder if they were shear-head scews. They had a
head once (probably a
male hexagon to be gripped with a normal spanner), but it was designed to
shear off when the screw was fully tightened. They're used for things
like car ignition switches (so a car thief can't easily remove the lock
from the steering column).
Completely smooth and roundish like a philips screw without the "+"
like manufacturing missed a hit to put "+" impression into blank
heads. Yes, I saw how nails and bolts, screws were made on canadian
shows called "How it is made".
Yes, I have a screw of that break away type with carb rebuild kit
for (my first car) caravan plymouth 1987 2.2L 4 cyl with carb.
Fixing caravan up in "major" ways, again a first for me but I
have done bit of auto work on other friends'. Yes, that is last year
for carb! Later half of 1987 saw moving up to 2.5L with single
injection in throttle body (TBI) and multi-injected V6 3.0L. Not
using that break away screw, don't want more problems trying to get
it off again later. Reason: the carb has broken choke heater and
needs a rebuild and bit of repair that former owner screwed up.
Question: how much side play in throttle shafts is considered
acceptable and when should be rebushed?
Back to screw topic:
Once I found a philips screw without rolled thread in a bag of
computer screws that comes with computer case, it is generic but
there is decent quality brands out there like Antec etc for empty
computer cases with power supply.
Cheers,
Wizard
24 Aug
24 Aug
3:13 p.m.
David V. Corbin wrote:
Compaq Presario, circa P-166.
Doc
>>The
long Torx screwdriver needed for Macs is available at
>>Sears for about $10.
>>They have the PC version for about $6, but of course the
>>Mac version works better.
Searching around for a PC [or compatible] that NEEDS a Torx................ 
10:25 a.m.
I got a copy of OS 7.1 - installed it with my 2mb memory, It seems to
work fine - I have
done everything so far with no problems.. :^)
If I can make it to VCF, Sellam says he'll host an "Upgrade your
memory" Seminar on my
behalf.
7337
days inactive
7341
days old
35 comments
15 participants
participants (15)
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