19 Nov
2021
19 Nov
'21
11:27 a.m.
Ed writes:
?If? we? ever? ?get? a? way? to? read? tapes? ? for? the? 2000 and? 3000?
Well, we can "read" tapes for the HP 3000, and restore the files from HP
3000 backup tapes ... via Allegro Consultant's "ROSETTA STORE" product (of
which I'm the primary author).
I'm happy to restore some files for fellow collectors/enthusiasts (as
time/energy permits) for free.
The problem breaks down into two parts:
1. reading the tape
Although Rosetta can read from a physical tape drive, that capability
hasn't been tested for a decade (because of loss of hardware).
Every user we know of uses Rosetta to restore files from tape images.
There are a number of formats of tape images ... quite a number.
Rosetta understands many tape image formats, including:
AWS / HET
STORE-to-disk
SIMH
Stromasys tape image
Tapecopy format (Data Conversion Resources)
(Oddly, I think it doesn't understand Allegro's own proprietary tape image
format, which records a lot more information than others (e.g., read-retry
information).)
If you need an HP 3000 'STORE' tape recovered, and it's in a different
format, let me know.
2. extracting files from the tape image
Rosetta can read Classic HP 3000 STORE tapes (aka "CM STORE") of various
versions, and MPE/iX STORE tapes (aka "NM STORE") of various versions
(although 'interleave' has been tested only very lightly).
By "read" I mean that it extracts the desired files, converts some (with
some controls), and creates either a hierarchical directory structure
matching the original, or a flattened one.
What about IMAGE databases?
On some platforms (Linux, HP-UX, Windows (?)), IMAGE databases can be
converted to Eloquence databases (Eloquence is a product of Marxmeier
software).
On all platforms, IMAGE databases can be converted to .csv or .xml files.
It can also handle SLT tapes, and provide some information on a few other
kinds of tapes one might see from an HP 3000 (e.g., dump tapes, Serial Disc
images), SPOOK tapes.
Rosetta runs on Mac, Linux, HP-UX, and Windows.
The HP-UX version can read older versions of ORBiT's Online Backup tapes
(before they changed the tape record header format)
TL;DR Ed: for the 3000, it's essentially a solved problem, and has been
for over 20 years!
Note: I also have a utility to restore files from (older?) Burroughs
mainframe (e.g., B6700) backup tapes.
19 Nov
19 Nov
2:27 p.m.
It is solved when I have a tape drive at our physical location to restore our tapes to our
system buy US.?
Sent from the all new AOL app for Android
On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 12:27 PM, Stan Sieler<sieler at allegro.com> wrote: Ed
writes:? ??If? we? ever? ?get? a? way? to? read? tapes? ? for? the? 2000 and? 3000?
Well, we can "read" tapes for the HP 3000, and restore the files from HP 3000
backup tapes ... via Allegro Consultant's "ROSETTA STORE" product (of which
I'm the primary author).
I'm happy to restore some files for fellow collectors/enthusiasts (as time/energy
permits) for free.
The problem breaks down into two parts:
1. reading the tape
Although Rosetta can read from a physical tape drive, that capability hasn't been
tested for a decade (because of loss of hardware).
Every user we know of uses Rosetta to restore files from tape images.
There are a number of formats of tape images ... quite a number.
Rosetta understands many tape image formats, including:? ? AWS / HET
? ? STORE-to-disk
? ? SIMH
? ? Stromasys tape image
? ? Tapecopy format (Data Conversion Resources)
(Oddly, I think it doesn't understand Allegro's own proprietary tape image format,
which records a lot more information than others (e.g., read-retry information).)
If? you need an HP 3000 'STORE' tape recovered, and it's in a different
format, let me know.
2. extracting files from the tape image
Rosetta can read Classic HP 3000 STORE tapes (aka "CM STORE") of various
versions, and MPE/iX STORE tapes (aka "NM STORE") of various versions (although
'interleave' has been tested only very lightly).
By "read" I mean that it extracts the desired files, converts some (with some
controls), and creates either a hierarchical directory structure matching the original, or
a flattened one.
What about IMAGE databases?On some platforms (Linux, HP-UX, Windows (?)), IMAGE databases
can be converted to Eloquence databases (Eloquence is a product of Marxmeier software).On
all platforms, IMAGE databases can be converted to .csv or .xml files.
It can also handle SLT tapes, and provide some information on a few other kinds of tapes
one?might see from an HP 3000 (e.g., dump tapes, Serial Disc images), SPOOK tapes.
Rosetta runs on Mac, Linux, HP-UX, and Windows.
The HP-UX version can read older versions of ORBiT's Online Backup tapes (before they
changed the tape record header format)
TL;DR? ?Ed: for the 3000, it's essentially a solved problem, and has been for over 20
years!
Note: I also have a utility to restore files from (older?) Burroughs mainframe (e.g.,
B6700) backup tapes.
2:43 p.m.
Ed wrote...
--------
It is solved when I have a tape drive at our physical location to restore our tapes to our
system buy US.
--------
Perhaps in the interest of saving history for everyone else, you could meet in the middle
(figuratively) with a less inward-looking mentality?
Unless you're fine setting conditions that you're unlikely to meet and then the
bits go to the ether......the loss is your fault yet everyone suffers.
J
3:40 p.m.
New subject: Getting files from HP 3000l ll business noretapes (was: Re: HP 2000 TSB and FORTRAN)
AH.... NO! JAY! To compare Jay.. it was like if our system was your cell phone your pcs
and your business computer contents all in one system.
I? doubt you would release? that into public hands.
I used our 2000 and 3000. As my personal. PC Jay!? Letters to my family. Notes to
myself... poetry.... articles I wrote for 5. Years? for. THE CHRONICLE (HP CENTRIC NEWS
PAPER)? anything? a computer was used for is how I always used our systems.?
??ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING!
These back ups contain all of all of all!??
Not just a dump of a bbs and multi user spacecraft games? and most of all the fun stuff.
Now if you do not understand my wish for personal privacy? we need to recalibrate you.?
(GRIN!)
so there? you go!
Sent from the all new AOL app for Android
On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 3:43 PM, jwest at classiccmp.org<jwest at classiccmp.org>
wrote: Ed wrote...
--------
It is solved when I have a tape drive at our physical location to restore our tapes to our
system buy US.
--------
Perhaps in the interest of saving history for everyone else, you could meet in the middle
(figuratively) with a less inward-looking mentality?
Unless you're fine setting conditions that you're unlikely to meet and then the
bits go to the ether......the loss is your fault yet everyone suffers.
J
5:12 p.m.
New subject: Getting files from HP 3000l ll business noretapes (was: Re: HP 2000 TSB and FORTRAN)
Heh!? Now that I have calmed down..I? do wish I had kept a? separate dump of? just bbs
systems. For 2000 and 3000. And the multi user space war game.
Actually the 3000 full volume of everything I ever did or said? was discovered in the
garage at home 1? year or maybe more back.?
The 800 bpi? tapes for 2000 I knew I had somewhere. But onlyvtefound again last winter
and...? in reality it was a miracle they were? saved.
We haveca Hp 918 that? was recently put of service? And a hp 37 that I assume that still
bopys boots? that were graciously? contributed? but the big stumbling block is.
TAPEDRIVES!? ?WELL.I HAVE A DDS-3 CART ON 918 BUT NO WORKEE WITH REEL TAPES @
I AM GETTING PRETTY. OLD NOW? BUT IN THE FEW YEARS I HAVE LEFT WOULD LIKE TO GET BOTH BBS
SYSTEMS BACK OUT THERE?
THE 2000 VERSION? HAD A REGULAR VERSION. THAT MIGRATED INTO A FANITSY? THEMED VERSION BOTH
SHOLD BE ON 800 bpi TAPE(This tape set had hardest storage conditions?
The 3000 version? should gave? both converted versions of the 2000? bbs's. Plus The
Forum/3000. massive even more? and no non nonsense? but even more? ?massave in features
and refinement.?
Security is totally killer on all.There us no way I would be able to recreate? these
systems? now due to some brain slowing? but if you have not noticed? I do not type well at
all.. part coordination? part tfu hand and finger movement( thanks to those who take time
to decipher? what I type ( I worked had to make? this and previous message? readable )
Anyway seems maybe easiest way? is with simulators? once we get a 800 1600 built tape
drive on it..
As always any help ...ideas..hardware appreciated?But keep in mind.? Transfer has to take
place HERE!Ed Sharpe archivist For SMECC
?
6:17 p.m.
New subject: Getting files from HP 3000l ll business noretapes (was: Re: HP 2000 TSB and FORTRAN)
Ed,
Maybe you could take a vacation to Oregon and meet up with Keven
Miller and get him to convert your tapes to SIMH format for you while
you watch and then wipe any intermediate storage to your satisfaction.
Or just come up with some sort of non-disclosure agreement that would
meet your requirements (bonus points for using a 1980s HP Confidential
Disclosure Agreement form (which no manager at HP could ever fill out
correctly)).
http://www.3kranger.com/3ktapes.shtm
And then when you get home you can make a nice virtual simulated
Series III and restore whatever you want to play with.
Beware of the possibility of delamination and other issues for old
9-track tapes depending on age/manufacturer/storage. Another reason it
might be good to get help from someone with experience in reading very
old tapes.
It would be fun to see the Forum up and running again.
Gavin
On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 7:13 PM ED SHARPE via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Heh! Now that I have calmed down..I do wish I had kept a separate dump of just bbs
systems. For 2000 and 3000. And the multi user space war game.
Actually the 3000 full volume of everything I ever did or said was discovered in the
garage at home 1 year or maybe more back.
The 800 bpi tapes for 2000 I knew I had somewhere. But onlyvtefound again last winter
and... in reality it was a miracle they were saved.
We haveca Hp 918 that was recently put of service And a hp 37 that I assume that still
bopys boots that were graciously contributed but the big stumbling block is.
TAPEDRIVES! WELL.I HAVE A DDS-3 CART ON 918 BUT NO WORKEE WITH REEL TAPES @
I AM GETTING PRETTY. OLD NOW BUT IN THE FEW YEARS I HAVE LEFT WOULD LIKE TO GET BOTH BBS
SYSTEMS BACK OUT THERE
THE 2000 VERSION HAD A REGULAR VERSION. THAT MIGRATED INTO A FANITSY THEMED VERSION
BOTH SHOLD BE ON 800 bpi TAPE(This tape set had hardest storage conditions
The 3000 version should gave both converted versions of the 2000 bbs's. Plus The
Forum/3000. massive even more and no non nonsense but even more massave in features
and refinement.
Security is totally killer on all.There us no way I would be able to recreate these
systems now due to some brain slowing but if you have not noticed I do not type well at
all.. part coordination part tfu hand and finger movement( thanks to those who take time
to decipher what I type ( I worked had to make this and previous message readable )
Anyway seems maybe easiest way is with simulators once we get a 800 1600 built tape
drive on it..
As always any help ...ideas..hardware appreciated But keep in mind. Transfer has to take
place HERE!Ed Sharpe archivist For SMECC
20 Nov
20 Nov
3:28 a.m.
New subject: Getting files from HP 3000l ll business noretapes (was: Re: HP 2000 TSB and FORTRAN)
Gavin !Indeed Keven? is great? at 3000 stuff!I? would? love? to? visit? ?him? ?but? I do
not? transport? ?well? any more alas......?Simulated? series III? ?yes? more power
efficient than? the? real? series III?But? we? still seek? a? eal one? for? display!Ed#?
In a message dated 11/19/2021 7:17:49 PM US Mountain Standard Time, gavin at learn.bio
writes:?
Ed,
Maybe you could take a vacation to Oregon and meet up with Keven
Miller and get him to convert your tapes to SIMH format for you while
you watch and then wipe any intermediate storage to your satisfaction.
Or just come up with some sort of non-disclosure agreement that would
meet your requirements (bonus points for using a 1980s HP Confidential
Disclosure Agreement form (which no manager at HP could ever fill out
correctly)).
http://www.3kranger.com/3ktapes.shtm
And then when you get home you can make a nice virtual simulated
Series III and restore whatever you want to play with.
Beware of the possibility of delamination and other issues for old
9-track tapes depending on age/manufacturer/storage. Another reason it
might be good to get help from someone with experience in reading very
old tapes.
It would be fun to see the Forum up and running again.
Gavin
On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 7:13 PM ED SHARPE via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Heh!? Now that I have calmed down..I? do wish I had kept a? separate dump of? just bbs
systems. For 2000 and 3000. And the multi user space war game.
Actually the 3000 full volume of everything I ever did or said? was discovered in the
garage at home 1? year or maybe more back.
The 800 bpi? tapes for 2000 I knew I had somewhere. But onlyvtefound again last winter
and...? in reality it was a miracle they were? saved.
We haveca Hp 918 that? was recently put of service? And a hp 37 that I assume that still
bopys boots? that were graciously? contributed? but the big stumbling block is.
TAPEDRIVES!? WELL.I HAVE A DDS-3 CART ON 918 BUT NO WORKEE WITH REEL TAPES @
I AM GETTING PRETTY. OLD NOW? BUT IN THE FEW YEARS I HAVE LEFT WOULD LIKE TO GET BOTH BBS
SYSTEMS BACK OUT THERE
THE 2000 VERSION? HAD A REGULAR VERSION. THAT MIGRATED INTO A FANITSY? THEMED VERSION
BOTH SHOLD BE ON 800 bpi TAPE(This tape set had hardest storage conditions
The 3000 version? should gave? both converted versions of the 2000? bbs's. Plus The
Forum/3000. massive even more? and no non nonsense? but even more? massave in features and
refinement.
Security is totally killer on all.There us no way I would be able to recreate? these
systems? now due to some brain slowing? but if you have not noticed? I do not type well at
all.. part coordination? part tfu hand and finger movement( thanks to those who take time
to decipher? what I type ( I worked had to make? this and previous message? readable )
Anyway seems maybe easiest way? is with simulators? once we get a 800 1600 built tape
drive on it..
As always any help ...ideas..hardware appreciated But keep in mind.? Transfer has to take
place HERE!Ed Sharpe archivist For SMECC
11:37 a.m.
New subject: Getting files from HP 3000l ll business noretapes (was: Re: HP 2000 TSB and FORTRAN)
On Sat, Nov 20, 2021 at 5:28 AM ED SHARPE <couryhouse at aol.com> wrote:
Simulated series III yes more power efficient than
the real series III
And about 42 times faster and four times the max memory and more disk
space than you could ever afford, and it takes like no memory to speak
of on the host and uses zero CPU when idle so yeah :)
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days inactive
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days old
7 comments
4 participants
participants (4)
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couryhouse＠aol.com -
gavin＠learn.bio -
jwest＠classiccmp.org -
sieler＠allegro.com