5 Oct
2011
5 Oct
'11
5:59 p.m.
Anyone on the list have disks or disk images for this beastie? It's
lurking quietly at the local thrift shop and has no docs/media. They
probably think it's a DOS machine of some kind. :) (it's a CP/M portable)
tnx all!
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.
5 Oct
5 Oct
7:28 p.m.
On Wed, 5 Oct 2011, Gene Buckle wrote:
Anyone on the list have disks or disk images for this
beastie? It's lurking
quietly at the local thrift shop and has no docs/media. They probably think
it's a DOS machine of some kind. :) (it's a CP/M portable)
The differences between the Bondwell models 12 and 14 seem to be 128KB
RAM in the 14 (as opposed to 64KB in the 12) and double-sided drives in
the 14 (versus single-sided in the 12). You could try the Bondwell 14
disk images on your Retroarchive site. :-)
http://www.retroarchive.org/hardware/bondwell/bw14dsks.zip
Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/
6 Oct
6 Oct
6:32 a.m.
On Wed, 5 Oct 2011, Mike Loewen wrote:
On Wed, 5 Oct 2011, Gene Buckle wrote:
Well played sir! However, I doubt a single-sided drive can grok a
double-sided boot disk. :)
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.
Anyone on the list have disks or disk images for
this beastie? It's
lurking quietly at the local thrift shop and has no docs/media. They
probably think it's a DOS machine of some kind. :) (it's a CP/M portable)
The differences between the Bondwell models 12 and 14 seem to be 128KB RAM
in the 14 (as opposed to 64KB in the 12) and double-sided drives in the 14
(versus single-sided in the 12). You could try the Bondwell 14 disk images
on your Retroarchive site. :-)
http://www.retroarchive.org/hardware/bondwell/bw14dsks.zip
6:51 a.m.
On Thu, 6 Oct 2011, Gene Buckle wrote:
On Wed, 5 Oct 2011, Mike Loewen wrote:
So, extract the system tracks from the double-sided image and write
them to a single-sided image and copy any desired files. I've done the
same sort of thing on Linux, using 'dd' and cpmtools.
...or put a double-sided drive in it.
Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/
The differences between the Bondwell models 12 and 14 seem to be 128KB
RAM in the 14 (as opposed to 64KB in the 12) and double-sided drives in the
14 (versus single-sided in the 12). You could try the Bondwell 14 disk
images on your Retroarchive site. :-)
http://www.retroarchive.org/hardware/bondwell/bw14dsks.zip
Well played sir! However, I doubt a single-sided drive can grok a
double-sided boot disk. :)
7 a.m.
On Thu, 6 Oct 2011, Mike Loewen wrote:
On Thu, 6 Oct 2011, Gene Buckle wrote:
For me it's just not worth the effort unless I have the right media for
it. I don't even know what the thrift shop wants for the machine. I may
be up to my neck in Kaypro hardware soon anyway... :)
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.
On Wed, 5 Oct 2011, Mike Loewen wrote:
So, extract the system tracks from the double-sided image and write them
to a single-sided image and copy any desired files. I've done the same sort
of thing on Linux, using 'dd' and cpmtools.
...or put a double-sided drive in it.
The differences between the Bondwell models 12 and 14 seem to be 128KB
RAM in the 14 (as opposed to 64KB in the 12) and double-sided drives in
the 14 (versus single-sided in the 12). You could try the Bondwell 14
disk images on your Retroarchive site. :-)
http://www.retroarchive.org/hardware/bondwell/bw14dsks.zip
Well played sir! However, I doubt a single-sided drive can grok a
double-sided boot disk. :) 
11:42 a.m.
>>> The differences between the Bondwell
models 12 and 14 seem to be 128KB
>>> RAM in the 14 (as opposed to 64KB in the 12) and double-sided drives in
>>> the 14 (versus single-sided in the 12). You could try the Bondwell 14
>>> disk images on your Retroarchive site. :-)
>>> http://www.retroarchive.org/hardware/bondwell/bw14dsks.zip
> ...or put a double-sided drive in it.
On Thu, 6 Oct 2011, Gene Buckle wrote:
For me it's just not worth the effort unless I
have the right media for
it. I don't even know what the thrift shop wants for the machine. I may
be up to my neck in Kaypro hardware soon anyway... :)
Howzbout:
cable up a double sided drive TEMPORARILY, with the existing single sided
drive as B:
boot, test, enjoy
format a single sided disk (good luck finding the right FORMAT command
line options, if it doesn't automagically switch)
SYSGEN
PIP
put the single sided drive back into A: position
There probably are numerous people on this list who would like to purchase
a CP/M laptop.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
11:57 a.m.
On Thu, 6 Oct 2011, Fred Cisin wrote:
Might be worth a shot of nothing else pans out.
>>>
The differences between the Bondwell models 12 and 14 seem to be 128KB
>>> RAM in the 14 (as opposed to 64KB in the 12) and double-sided drives in
>>> the 14 (versus single-sided in the 12). You could try the Bondwell 14
>>> disk images on your Retroarchive site. :-)
>>> http://www.retroarchive.org/hardware/bondwell/bw14dsks.zip
> ...or put a double-sided drive in it.
On Thu, 6 Oct 2011, Gene Buckle wrote:
For me it's just not worth the effort unless
I have the right media for
it. I don't even know what the thrift shop wants for the machine. I may
be up to my neck in Kaypro hardware soon anyway... :)
Howzbout:
cable up a double sided drive TEMPORARILY, with the existing single sided
drive as B:
boot, test, enjoy
format a single sided disk (good luck finding the right FORMAT command
line options, if it doesn't automagically switch)
SYSGEN
PIP
put the single sided drive back into A: position
There probably are numerous people on this list who
would like to purchase
a CP/M laptop.
This is only a laptop if you're 8 feet tall. It's Kaypro sized, just with
a plastic case. :)
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.
7 Oct
7 Oct
6:50 a.m.
Gene Buckle wrote:
Well played sir! However, I doubt a single-sided drive
can grok a
double-sided boot disk. :)
It depends. On MS-DOS, isn't it the case that a single-sided drive will
happily read any data that is on the first side of a disk? So couldn't
you boot from a double-sided boot disk if this is the case, and also iff
all of the data used in the bootstrap is on the first side?
Peace... Sridhar
7:12 a.m.
On Fri, 7 Oct 2011, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
Gene Buckle wrote:
I really don't know. I haven't found a whole lot of detailed information
about the machine. I did learn that the 12 can be upgraded to a 14 by
adding double-sided drives an another 64k of RAM. I'll likely pick up the
machine tonight on the way home and take a peek. If I can get it for less
than $20, it would be worth it. If nothing else I can clean it up and try
to flip it on eBay. :)
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.
Well played sir! However, I doubt a single-sided
drive can grok a
double-sided boot disk. :)
It depends. On MS-DOS, isn't it the case that a single-sided drive will
happily read any data that is on the first side of a disk? So couldn't you
boot from a double-sided boot disk if this is the case, and also iff all of
the data used in the bootstrap is on the first side?
10:04 a.m.
On 7 Oct 2011 at 9:50, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
It depends. On MS-DOS, isn't it the case that a
single-sided drive
will happily read any data that is on the first side of a disk? So
couldn't you boot from a double-sided boot disk if this is the case,
and also iff all of the data used in the bootstrap is on the first
side?
Yes, that's sometimes the case; it depends very much on how the
double-sided software organizes information. Today, we assume that
the organization will be side-to-side (i.e. the head alternates
before the cylinder number increases), but that was far from
universal in the CP/M world.
Often, it was the case that data storage progressed though all the
cylinders on the first side, then the second side, but in reverse.
Sometimes instead of reversing, the system would begin again, storing
data on the second side with the first cylinder.
And sometimes, storage started in the middle cylinder, alternating
heads and progressing outwards in both directions.
By far, the most common was our "normal" order of today. And it's
not possible to store all of what's needed to boot CP/M on a single
track (i.e. single side of a single cylinder).
As far as the Bondwell, I'll have to check my notes if anyone's
really interested.
--Chuck
11:56 a.m.
On the other hand, if you have the Bondwell double-sided system disk,
it's pretty straightforward to create any variation of it you'd like.
Just sharpen your pencil. A disassembler might be helpful, but many
manufacturers included the source code for their CBIOS in the
standard distribution.
--Chuck
11:17 a.m.
> Well played sir! However, I doubt a single-sided
drive can grok a
> double-sided boot disk. :)
On Fri, 7 Oct 2011, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
It depends. On MS-DOS, isn't it the case that a
single-sided drive will
happily read any data that is on the first side of a disk? So couldn't
you boot from a double-sided boot disk if this is the case, and also iff
all of the data used in the bootstrap is on the first side?
Not exactly "happily".
Sectors, certainly.
But, files? The directory starts on track 0 side A, but continues onto
track 0 side B, and even a simple "DIR" command will give errors. If the
disk is not fragmented, than any file larger than one track (4.5K on 360k
and 720K) will continue onto the second side. If it IS fragmented, then
clusters are distributed semi-randomly, and "half" will be on second side.
SOME CP/M double sided formats use all of the first side, and THEN use the
second side. On THOSE formats, barring fragmentation, a single sided
drive can "happily" read the first half of the contents, without even
noticing a problem. Sometimes it uses the second side starting at track 0,
1, 2, or 3 of side B, sometimes it uses the second side starting at the
highest track (34, 39, 79, 76) side B.
Some other formats use both sides of cylinder 0 before going on to
cylinder 1. Some of those (such as MS-DOS) use all of the sectors on side
A of that cylinder and then all of the sectors of side B. Some other
formats, treat both sides of the cylinder as one track, and may even end
up alternating sides within the cylinder, depending on the "interleave".
I do NOT remember which "side-pattern" the Bondwell 14 was, which is
important to THIS part of the discussion.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
8 Oct
8 Oct
1:19 p.m.
Fred Cisin wrote:
Not exactly "happily".
Sectors, certainly.
But, files? The directory starts on track 0 side A, but continues onto
track 0 side B, and even a simple "DIR" command will give errors. If the
disk is not fragmented, than any file larger than one track (4.5K on 360k
and 720K) will continue onto the second side. If it IS fragmented, then
clusters are distributed semi-randomly, and "half" will be on second side.
Tell that to my 5155 Portable Personal Computer. It has one
double-sided drive and one single-sided one. I've successfully put a
disk formatted and written in the double-sided drive into the single
sided drive, run DIR, and even TYPEd files. Then some files didn't work
and I realized I had the disk in the wrong drive.
Peace... Sridhar
7 Oct
7 Oct
11:39 a.m.
On Fri, 7 Oct 2011, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
It depends. On MS-DOS, isn't it the case that a
single-sided drive will
happily read any data that is on the first side of a disk? So couldn't
you boot from a double-sided boot disk if this is the case, and also iff
all of the data used in the bootstrap is on the first side?
sectors V files
perhaps an example of data V information
On MS-DOS, you can NOT boot from a double sided bootdisk in a single sided
drive.
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cclist＠sydex.com -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
geneb＠deltasoft.com -
mloewen＠cpumagic.scol.pa.us -
ploopster＠gmail.com