11 Oct
2002
11 Oct
'02
6:57 a.m.
Dear Topco,
I've created a web page to publicize and discuss the horrible
misinterpretation of the facts of the history of computing
as delivered to thousands of kids on your recent box of
Corn Puffs. You can see it at:
http://www.threedee.com/jcm/cereal/
I'd like to talk to the person who wrote and designed this box.
I'd like to offer to serve as a consultant to help you design
more accurate and more entertaining cereal boxes than this.
Sincerely,
John Foust
(920) 674-5200
www.threedee.com/jcm
11 Oct
11 Oct
7:32 a.m.
On the original floppy's being in cardboard...
I have a very ancient Dicom 7 1/2 inch dual floppy disk system, and some
media for those
bizzare Memorex drives. Indeed, they are made from cardboard. Its been
impregnated and
pressed into a composite material, but it clearly is cardboard.
Does anyone on the list know anything about these ancient 7 1/2 inch
Memorex floppy drives?
John Foust wrote:
Dear Topco,
I've created a web page to publicize and discuss the horrible
misinterpretation of the facts of the history of computing
as delivered to thousands of kids on your recent box of
Corn Puffs. You can see it at:
http://www.threedee.com/jcm/cereal/
I'd like to talk to the person who wrote and designed this box.
I'd like to offer to serve as a consultant to help you design
more accurate and more entertaining cereal boxes than this.
Sincerely,
John Foust
(920) 674-5200
www.threedee.com/jcm
8:10 a.m.
At 12:35 PM 10/11/2002 -0400, you wrote:
On the original floppy's being in cardboard...
I have a very ancient Dicom 7 1/2 inch dual floppy disk system, and some media for those
bizzare Memorex drives. Indeed, they are made from cardboard. Its been impregnated and
pressed into a composite material, but it clearly is cardboard.
I'm sure that's what the Topco artist meant. :-)
- John
9:20 a.m.
And I don't think it's a short hop from having
an LED light source to
having an LED calculator. Calculators existed with different displays
before LEDs.
I used calculators with mechanical display, Nixie tubes, and CRTs
Watches and clocks? They were digital before LEDs,
too.
I've had mechanical digital clocks,
but I can't recall any digital watches before LEDs.
9:44 a.m.
I had a Caravelle by Bulova that was a mechanical digital display. Got
it for a grad present in 1972.
James
http://webpages.charter.net/jrice54/classiccomp2.html
Watches and
clocks? They were digital before LEDs, too.
I've had mechanical digital clocks,
but I can't recall any digital watches before LEDs.
9:58 a.m.
At 11:21 AM 10/11/2002 -0700, you wrote:
Point taken. I would say that there were digital LED
non-portable clocks before there was a digital LED watch.
Can anyone recognize their story about the invention and
marketing of the first LED? Were they talking about the
light-emitting diode itself, or the alphanumeric?
This http://www.datamath.org/Display/Monsanto.htm points to
Nick Holonyak, Jr. of GE as the inventor of the LED in 1962
and discusses how Monsanto developed the alphanumeric.
Hamilton released the Pulsar LED watch in 1970.
- John
Watches and
clocks? They were digital before LEDs, too.
I've had mechanical digital
clocks,
but I can't recall any digital watches before LEDs. 
12:10 p.m.
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9:03 a.m.
I haven't seen a 7.5" diskette.
Assuming that the picture is not to scale,...
The floppy doesn't have an index hole.
The notches on the leading edge are consistent (albeit not accurately
placed) with the write-protect notch of an 8" disk.
Further trivia:
On "The Computer Bowl" a few years ago, Bill Gates' entire team could not
state where the write-protect notch was on an 8" diskette!
For our Computer Faire booth, we used to have a 5' inflatable toy
Tyrannosaurus (wearing a valid admission badge as VP of Marketing) holding
an 8" diskette with a bite out of it. One time, a little kid walked up
and said, "that's not real." My assistant said, "that's right,
it's just
a plastic inflatable." The kid responded, "not that, you dork, that disk
is fake." Bob said, "No, that's a real diskette; they used to make them
like that." The kid rolled his eyes and said, "yeah. right." and walked
away.
On Fri, 11 Oct 2002, Bob Shannon wrote:
On the original floppy's being in cardboard...
I have a very ancient Dicom 7 1/2 inch dual floppy disk system, and some
media for those
bizzare Memorex drives. Indeed, they are made from cardboard. Its been
impregnated and
pressed into a composite material, but it clearly is cardboard.
Does anyone on the list know anything about these ancient 7 1/2 inch
Memorex floppy drives?
John Foust wrote:
>Dear Topco,
>
>I've created a web page to publicize and discuss the horrible
>misinterpretation of the facts of the history of computing
>as delivered to thousands of kids on your recent box of
>Corn Puffs. You can see it at:
>
>http://www.threedee.com/jcm/cereal/
>
>I'd like to talk to the person who wrote and designed this box.
>I'd like to offer to serve as a consultant to help you design
>more accurate and more entertaining cereal boxes than this.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>John Foust
>(920) 674-5200
>www.threedee.com/jcm
9:14 a.m.
On Fri, 11 Oct 2002, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote:
For our Computer Faire booth, we used to have a 5'
inflatable toy
Tyrannosaurus (wearing a valid admission badge as VP of Marketing) holding
an 8" diskette with a bite out of it. One time, a little kid walked up
and said, "that's not real." My assistant said, "that's right,
it's just
a plastic inflatable." The kid responded, "not that, you dork, that disk
is fake." Bob said, "No, that's a real diskette; they used to make them
like that." The kid rolled his eyes and said, "yeah. right." and walked
away.
Little punk...
:)
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
10:28 a.m.
on 10/11/02 1:04 PM, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) at cisin(a)xenosoft.com wrote:
For our Computer Faire booth, we used to have a 5'
inflatable toy
Tyrannosaurus (wearing a valid admission badge as VP of Marketing) holding
an 8" diskette with a bite out of it. One time, a little kid walked up
and said, "that's not real." My assistant said, "that's right,
it's just
a plastic inflatable." The kid responded, "not that, you dork, that disk
is fake." Bob said, "No, that's a real diskette; they used to make them
like that." The kid rolled his eyes and said, "yeah. right." and walked
away.
I've had a few experiences like that. But my little brother is 8 years old,
and he knows what an 8" floppy is. I even had him using them on a TRS-80
Model II once. He's quite familiar with what most of the things in my
collection are, and can tell the difference between the PDP-11/34 and the
PDP-11/23. And he was smart enough to know that the two very large things on
the floor that kept him from getting to his iMac for several months were
disk drives. RK05j's to be exact. I recently promised to teach him Pascal. I
recently promised to teach my father how to turn a computer on. :-)
I've always thought that computer literacy classes in schools should teach
computer history.
--
Owen Robertson
10:50 a.m.
Owen Robertson wrote:
I've had a few experiences like that. But my
little brother is 8
years old, and he knows what an 8" floppy is.
My little brother is 13 years
old and his PC has a 5.25" floppy drive fitted
:-)
I even had him using
them on a TRS-80 Model II once.
Quite an achievement. I often get asked to remove
"that piece of junk" (the
5.25" drive) from his machine. I would if I had a blanking plate...
He's quite familiar with what most of
the things in my collection are, and can tell the difference between
the PDP-11/34 and the PDP-11/23.
I don't have a PDP-anything, nor do I have the
room for one. I would like to
learn my way around the DEC operating system used on VAX machines (sorry,
the name escapes me), and maybe get a MicroVAX or something small to start
out with, though.
My collection tends to center around oddball machines, singleboard
computers, microprocessor trainers, that sort of thing. I'm currently
building a COSMAC Elf (or I will be when the wire-wrap tool and CDP1861 VIDC
arrive).
And he was smart enough to know that
the two very large things on the floor that kept him from getting to
his iMac for several months were disk drives. RK05j's to be exact.
I'd kill
for a PowerMac. If only I had the space...
Another thing I want/need is a 10baseT Ethernet card or StrongARM CPU
upgrade card (and Risc OS 3.7) for my Acorn Risc PC600. I want to put it on
the local network and use it as an internet access/software development
platform.
I recently promised to teach him Pascal.
Planning to teach him C++, too? :-)
I've been using Pascal since age 9, C++ since age 15. I despise C++.
I recently promised to teach
my father how to turn a computer on. :-)
I tried to get my father to let me teach
him - his response was "There's no
point". He quickly changed his mind when his new job dictated that he write
reports using a computer. His employer found out he didn't even know how to
switch a computer on, so they sent him on a "basic computing" course. I've
promised to teach him how to use the Internet on my network.
I've always thought that computer literacy classes
in schools should
teach computer history.
Me too. One of my previous IT teachers knew how to work M$
Word and that was
about it. The janitor managed to bring down the network by pulling the power
brick for the hub out of the wall. The IT guy spent 20mins the next morning
(during my IT "lesson") looking at the settings on all the machines ("One
machine's bad settings can corrupt the whole network"), then gave up. I
noticed the hub was unplugged, plugged it back in and the fan in the hub
started whirring. A few click-clunks from the hub later and the network was
back up.
Later.
--
Phil.
philpem(a)dsl.pipex.com
http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/
14 Oct
14 Oct
8:44 a.m.
On Friday, October 11, 2002, Philip Pemberton wrote:
Owen Robertson wrote:
It's par for the course with that kid. I've met him. Owen's brother is a
bona fide genius.
--
Jeffrey Sharp
I've had a few experiences like that. But my
little brother is 8
years old, and he knows what an 8" floppy is. I even had him using
them on a TRS-80 Model II once.
Quite an achievement.
11 Oct
11 Oct
3:44 p.m.
On Fri, 11 Oct 2002, Owen Robertson wrote:
I've always thought that computer literacy classes
in schools should teach
computer history.
There have been complaints made about my spending time in my Operating
Systems class teaching the history! ("I don't want to hear about Gary
Kildall; I just want to know what to click on!")
5:04 p.m.
On Fri, 11 Oct 2002, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote:
There have been complaints made about my spending time
in my Operating
Systems class teaching the history! ("I don't want to hear about Gary
Kildall; I just want to know what to click on!")
You should take the mouse away from people who complain like that.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
12 Oct
12 Oct
3:23 p.m.
> There have been complaints made about my spending
time in my Operating
> Systems class teaching the history! ("I don't want to hear about Gary
> Kildall; I just want to know what to click on!")
On Fri, 11 Oct 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote:
You should take the mouse away from people who
complain like that.
I gave them two large files and told them to determine whether they
matched. I even gave them the major hint that "FC" wasn't necessarily my
initials. I doubt that the mouse-clickers are done yet.
Any other good examples of stuff that is trivial to do at the prompt, but
difficult to do "on the desktop"?
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
4:06 p.m.
On Sat, 12 Oct 2002, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote:
Any other good examples of stuff that is trivial to do
at the prompt, but
difficult to do "on the desktop"?
Ooooh, hate to tell you this, Fred, but it totally depends on the tools
you have.
I offer the following evidence in counter to your example:
http://www.bears.org/~red/nowhere/FileMerge.app.tiff
ok
r.
5 p.m.
> Any other good examples of stuff that is trivial
to do at the prompt, but
> difficult to do "on the desktop"?
On Sat, 12 Oct 2002, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote:
Ooooh, hate to tell you this, Fred, but it totally
depends on the tools
you have.
I offer the following evidence in counter to your example:
http://www.bears.org/~red/nowhere/FileMerge.app.tiff
I NEVER said that there weren't third party products available.
I ALSO NEVER said that there weren't also tasks that were more suited to
the "desktop" than to the CLI. Those are obvious. The query was for
which tasks would be good examples to show that the CLI was still needed,
or at least still useful, when running Windoze.
Does that program compare two files?
The parts of it that were successful in loading made no mention of file
compare. (It reported an "internal error")
File compare was merely an example that the "desktop" in MICROS~1 OS's
does NOT provide all and every capability that had previously been
provided in the CLI.
8:05 p.m.
On Sat, 12 Oct 2002, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote:
I NEVER said that there weren't third party
products available.
Hang on, it wasn't my intention to get your dander up.
I ALSO NEVER said that there weren't also tasks
that were more suited to
the "desktop" than to the CLI. Those are obvious. The query was for
which tasks would be good examples to show that the CLI was still needed,
or at least still useful, when running Windoze.
The problem with that, IMO, is that none of the tools that ship with
Windows, CLI or otherwise, are particularly robust, or even suited to any
but the simplest of the most basic tasks. In the general case I think the
point that is more useful to illustrate is "use the appropriate tool for
the job". Using two "notepad" windows side by side is clearly NOT the
appropriate tool to compare two files. "comp" may not be it, either,
depending on the nature of the differences and how you intend to utilize
the information about those differences, but still it's a lot better
suited than the former example.
Microsoft may even provide a graphical version of 'diff' as a part of
Visual Studio. The last time I used MSVC, I was not what you might call a
"sophisticated user", though, so I'm not sure about that.
Does that program compare two files?
The parts of it that were successful in loading made no mention of file
compare. (It reported an "internal error")
You lost me. Which program? FileMerge is an app that ships with the
developer option for NEXTSTEP and provides a combination of functionality
offered by the standard UNIX utilities 'diff' and 'patch'.
I hope you weren't trying to execute the .tiff screen capture that the URL
pointed to, as an application binary...
File compare was merely an example that the
"desktop" in MICROS~1 OS's
does NOT provide all and every capability that had previously been
provided in the CLI.
I don't think anybody would argue that it does. Clearly the CLI doesn't
provide all the capabilities offered by the GUI either, but I know you
weren't saying that.
I mean, Photoshop on the Mac supports multiprocessor systems, even though
MacOS 9 doesn't. Clearly it would've been easier on Adobe if it had, but
that feature is present in Photoshop just the same.
It's all about the tools!
ok
r.
13 Oct
13 Oct
9:55 a.m.
On Sun, 13 Oct 2002, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote:
You gave "as examp0le" a URL; I
trust you; so I pointed a browser in a
fairly isolated machine at the URL that you posted. What came up was
"IMAGING" program.
YES, THEY DO! (but not HERE) That is EXACTLY the issue. The original
issue of the thread was that some beginners claim that there is no need
for the CLI, and OBJECT to class time on it!
Hang on, it wasn't my intention to get your dander
up.
Not to worry
The problem with that, IMO, is that none of the tools
that ship with
Windows, CLI or otherwise, are particularly robust, or even suited to any
but the simplest of the most basic tasks.
DEBUG seems to be almost as good as earlier versions
But I do agree, at least in principle, except that the tools that ship
with the OS are THERE and AVAILABLE. It behooves one to know how to use
them, even if somebody somewhere might have a better tool that could be
obtained. There are better debuggers than DEBUG; but ANY PC that I sit
down at HAS it.
In the general case I think the
point that is more useful to illustrate is "use the appropriate tool for
the job".
exactly.
and the task at hand is to refute the absurd notion that the WINDOZE
desktop is "ALWAYS" appropriate, with EXAMPLE tasks. And to learn
to use the tools that are present, in addition to seeking out other tools
that might or might not be available.
Does that
program compare two files?
The parts of it that were successful in loading made no mention of file
compare. (It reported an "internal error")
You lost me. Which program?
FileMerge is an app that ships with the
developer option for NEXTSTEP and provides a combination of functionality
offered by the standard UNIX utilities 'diff' and 'patch'.
I hope you weren't trying to execute the .tiff screen capture that the URL
pointed to, as an application binary... File compare
was merely an example that the "desktop" in MICROS~1 OS's
does NOT provide all and every capability that had previously been
provided in the CLI.
I don't think anybody would argue that it does.
Clearly the CLI doesn't
provide all the capabilities offered by the GUI either, but I know you
weren't saying that.
While YOU AND I agree to the obvious, the source of this subthread was to
provide examples to refute the absurd assertion that the WINDOZE DESKTOP
handles everything.
The specific history of this thread is:
STUDENT: Why do we have to do this DOS crap? Will it be on the FINAL?
You can do everything in Windows XP by clicking on it!
TEACHER: Think so? Here's a disk with two large files. Are they
identical?
Followed by my asking whether anybody had some suggestions for other
simple tasks to make the point that the CLI, and the programs that come
with it, has some usefulness of its own, and that there is a REASON why
the CLI is still present in MICROS~1 OS's.
It's all about the tools!
12 Oct
12 Oct
5:05 p.m.
NOTE:
I am NOT implying that it isn't POSSIBLE to have a "desktop" with full
functionality, merely that with WINDOZE it is sometimes useful or
necessary to use the command line.
13 Oct
13 Oct
4:21 a.m.
"Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote:
NOTE:
I am NOT implying that it isn't POSSIBLE to have a "desktop" with full
functionality, merely that with WINDOZE it is sometimes useful or
necessary to use the command line.
Jerome Fine replies:
Another example is when I use GHOST. Normally,
GHOST must be used at the CLI and even booted
from the A: floppy drive. However, it is also possible
to do certain functions under Windoze which don't
require booting from the A: floppy drive - although
officially Semantic does NOT support them except
when they are executed after booting from the A:
floppy drive. On those occasions, if any of the
switches are required, executing from the CLI is
the only way rather than using the mouse and clicking
on the file GHOST.exe to initiate running thE program.
Sincerely yours,
Jerome Fine
--
If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail
address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk
e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be
obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the
'at' with the four digits of the current year.
11 Oct
11 Oct
9:02 p.m.
New subject: Computer exhibit and school lkids - was Re: Corn Puffs box misinformation
Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote:
On Fri, 11 Oct 2002, Owen Robertson wrote:
>I've always thought that computer literacy
classes in schools should teach
>computer history.
There have been complaints made about my spending time
in my Operating
Systems class teaching the history! ("I don't want to hear about Gary
Kildall; I just want to know what to click on!")
We are exhibiting some old computers (PDP8/f, IBM 5110, Tektronix 4052,
Xerox 1186 etc all working to some extent or other) and have had visits
from school classes. Yesterday a TV team came to film
and part of the
show was an interview with a 10 year old or so girl who affirmed
that
you could do more, and more interesting, things with old computers than
with new ones! The interviewer asked if she was sure and she said yes!
Out of the mouths of babes...
Another class a girl of about the same age who in the course of about 30
minutes managed to master binary, octal and was on the way to
understanding the basics of PDP-8 machine language before being dragged
away when her class left. There is hope yet!!
One thing I continue to struggle with is how to display a working system
so as to attract the interests of the passing visitor. Any display must
be quick enough to capture the visitors interest but not too long to
bore them. It must connect with the visitor to make sense to them and
must somehow show the essentials of the software. I don't think I have
solved that problem yet in any general way.
For the PDP-8 we have the CPU box, no terminal. I loaded a 30
instruction program to calculate the average of a sequnece of numbers
entered on the keys. It takes about 15 minutes of so to teach a group of
kids to enter binary numbers and read the result. The most common
comment (before we start) is : "Where's the screen and keyboard?"
-- hbp
10:09 p.m.
New subject: Computer exhibit and school lkids - was Re: Corn Puffs box misinformation
Hans B Pufal wrote:
For the PDP-8 we have the CPU box, no terminal. I
loaded a 30
instruction program to calculate the average of a sequnece of numbers
entered on the keys. It takes about 15 minutes of so to teach a group
of kids to enter binary numbers and read the result. The most common
comment (before we start) is : "Where's the screen and keyboard?"
I
can understand why :-)
OTOH, I do like the glow of a set of blinkenlights while I'm coding. Shame I
still need a few bargraph LED displays and a random number generator to
duplicate the effect on my PC...
Later.
--
Phil.
philpem(a)dsl.pipex.com
http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/
12 Oct
12 Oct
4:17 a.m.
New subject: Computer exhibit and school lkids - was Re: Corn Puffs box misinformation
On Sat, 12 Oct 2002, Hans B Pufal wrote:
One thing I continue to struggle with is how to
display a working system
so as to attract the interests of the passing visitor. Any display must
be quick enough to capture the visitors interest but not too long to
bore them. It must connect with the visitor to make sense to them and
must somehow show the essentials of the software. I don't think I have
solved that problem yet in any general way.
GAMES!
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
11 Oct
11 Oct
12:09 p.m.
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14 Oct
14 Oct
8:26 a.m.
On Friday, October 11, 2002, John Foust wrote:
I've created a web page to publicize and discuss
the horrible
misinterpretation ... http://www.threedee.com/jcm/cereal/
Okay, here are my additions:
Outside of the 'ENIAC building', there is a guy using a PC-like machine.
Those, of course, did not exist in 1945.
And the girl running to the building: her skirt is drawn way too short for
the period, and she looks like she is either writhing in pain or playing
left-handed air guitar. Air guitar did not exist in 1945. Also, it looks
like she is running *very* fast. Doesn't she know she's going to be hurt
when she runs into the building?
Why is the 3.5" floppy consoling the 5.25" floppy? Why is the 5.25" floppy
shaky? And I thought that floppies were floppy because of the media inside,
not the outer shell. After all, they are floppy _disks_, not floppy squares.
--
Jeffrey Sharp
9:51 a.m.
At 12:22 PM 10/14/2002 -0500, Jeffrey Sharp wrote:
On Friday, October 11, 2002, John Foust wrote:
The text compares the power of ENIAC to the power of a modern PC.
One friend said the woman looks like Julia Roberts. I think the
person with the PC and the woman are supposed to be contemporary.
Why she's looking at the roof of the ENIAC house is beyond me.
Why they decided to use a lame size analogy like that, and then
illustrate it literally is also beyond my ken. Would it be
unreasonable for a kid to think that old computers were also tall?
The square footage of ENIAC mutates into comparisons with square
footage of a typical house, which mutates into house volume. Huh?
No response from Topco, though.
You're right about the floppy, of course. They could've used a
"fun factoid" like explaining why all floppies have been called
floppy because they're talking about the disk not the case.
- John
I've created a web page to publicize and
discuss the horrible
misinterpretation ... http://www.threedee.com/jcm/cereal/
Outside of the 'ENIAC building', there is a guy using a PC-like machine.
Those, of course, did not exist in 1945. 
10:13 a.m.
I've created a web page to publicize and discuss
the horrible
misinterpretation ... http://www.threedee.com/jcm/cereal/
The misinformation may be true, but remember that they claim corn-puffs
are a good product to eat too!
10:33 a.m.
On Mon, 14 Oct 2002, Ben Franchuk wrote:
Well, edible or not, they make great mechanical dampers.
I loaned my lovely external Eliant 8mm tape drive to a cow-orker a
couple of months ago, and when I got it back, weeks late, I couldn't get
a tape to load at all.
Evidently she had carried it around in the back seat with her
ankle-biters, because when I took it apart, I found 4 corn puffs,
nestled neatly at the 4 corners of the loading tracks.
The drive is fine now, and the cow, um, -orker, is still pissed
because I turned in a time ticket for the repair [0], and it came out of
her check.
Doc
[0] Strictly for meanness and a wake-up call. The woman makes double
what I do, can't be bothered to buy her own equipment, thinks mine is
there for her personal enjoyment, and takes abysmal care of it, not to
mention whining when she's expected to bring it back to me. If I want
my stuff back, I can drive 90 miles to get it, right?
I've created a web page to publicize and
discuss the horrible
misinterpretation ... http://www.threedee.com/jcm/cereal/
The misinformation may be true, but remember that they claim corn-puffs
are a good product to eat too!
7947
days inactive
7950
days old
28 comments
14 participants
participants (14)
-
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca -
bshannon＠tiac.net -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
doc＠mdrconsult.com -
foo＠siconic.com -
hansp＠aconit.org -
jfoust＠threedee.com -
jhfinepw4z＠compsys.to -
jrice54＠charter.net -
jss＠subatomix.com -
philpem＠dsl.pipex.com -
red＠bears.org -
univac2＠earthlink.net