24 Jun
2012
24 Jun
'12
2:41 a.m.
Hello everyone,
I was hoping for some definite direction in my endless quest to fix my C64. I don't
have a lot of free time to work on this. So it is ongoing in many ways. Plus I am cautious
about doing things that I know little about. Which can be good especially when you get
people that give you conflicting advice. I do find a lot of helpful people on IRC, but you
have to sort out what they are all telling you. I won't want to go and start buying
all sorts of stuff and equipment without knowing why or then finding that I should have
bought Y, when I bought X.
I know a little. Bits and pieces here and there, but nothing that will give me confidence
to just dive in.
This is my quest to learn how to repair my C64:
I started with my original C64 which I bought in 1987. I had left it in a garage for two
years and then tried to use it and it didn't work.
First I was told that I should clean my C64 with regular dish detergent and a hair dryer.
I was told that this would solve many problems. Sounds unsafe, but I guess I will try it.
Then I was told that I should buy another C64 since it isn't worth repairing them,
since they are so plentifully available and cheap. So now I have many non-working ones.
Then I need to replace chips that are bad, so I need to know how to solder and de-solder.
Which kind of device to get ? There are different wattages and if you do it wrong then you
burn up your boards (as a friend of mine did with more soldering experience did). Do I get
a combination desolder sucker ? Or a little squeeze one ? Or a push and suck stick ? Do I
get a soldering station ? A braider ? Too many different choices and combinations. I
prefer something that will work and not damage my boards, and for desoldering, something
that won't give me repetitive stress injury.
Then I'm told to get a diagnostic cartridge for C64, which works well expect when the
PLA chip is bad and there you can't see video.
Then I should get a diagnostic harness, which works better, but again you need video.
Then I find a Diagnose 64 cartridge which tells you which chips are bad very simply with
LED lights, but they are hard to find. I'm borrowing one right now from a friend and
figuring out how to use now.
Then I'm told to get a multimeter, how do I use ? Which one to get ? I get one, then
I'm told there is a better that could have been gotten for a little more money.
Then I'm told to get a logic probe. Which one ? Again, how to use ?
Then I'm told a logic probe is not as good as an oscilloscope. Which one ? How to use
? Then I'm told that I don't need an oscilloscope.
Then I'm told to go to Ray Carlsen's site and that will have everything I need.
http://personalpages.tds.net/~rcarlsen/cbm.html. Which is very nice, but I'm a
beginner and I don't need just a bunch of schematics and reference material. I need
step by step method which explains which tools, techniques etc. that I need to do.
Then I'm told that going to the Rob Clarke and Bil Herd workshop would give me
everything that I need to know. It is good information, but not hands on.
Jeff B
24 Jun
24 Jun
12:24 p.m.
Hello everyone,
I was hoping for some definite direction in my endless quest to fix my =
OK, but be warned you might not like my answers :-).
C64. I don't have a lot of free time to work on
this. So it is ongoing =
in many ways. Plus I am cautious about doing things that I know little =
about. Which can be good especially when you get people that give you =
conflicting advice. I do find a lot of helpful people on IRC, but you =
have to sort out what they are all telling you. I won't want to go and =
start buying all sorts of stuff and equipment without knowing why or =
then finding that I should have bought Y, when I bought X.=20
I know a little. Bits and pieces here and there, but nothing that will =
give me confidence to just dive in.
This is my quest to learn how to repair my C64:
I started with my original C64 which I bought in 1987. I had left it in =
a garage for two years and then tried to use it and it didn't work.=20
First I was told that I should clean my C64 with regular dish detergent =
and a hair dryer. I was told that this would solve many problems. Sounds =
unsafe, but I guess I will try it.
Then I was told that I should buy another C64 since it isn't worth =
repairing them, since they are so plentifully available and cheap. So =
now I have many non-working ones.
Err, yes... Been therem, done that (but not with C64s...).
Whether something is worth repairing is up to you. It may well not make
financial sense to repair a C64, given how commn they are and how cheap
they tenet to me, but the fiannacial rason is not the only reason for
doing something (in fact to me it's rarely a reason at all). If you want
otlearn how to repair things, it's not a bad machine to start on. And you
will learn a lot. You might even come to ejoy it. THose seem to me to be
reasons why it is worth repariign a C64.
Much of what follows is not going to be C64-specific. That;s not
suprising, IMHO almost all computers -- darn it, all electronic devices
-- are diagnosed and repaired in much the ame way,
There are 2 parts ot the repair. First you must find out what is wrong,
second you put it right. Notice the order there. It is, IMHO, very
foolish to start trying to reapri things, replace parts, etc until you
have a lcear idea as to what is wrong amd what therefore needs replacing.
Since your questions are in the opposite order, I will anseer them like
that, though.
Then I need to replace chips that are bad, so I need
to know how to =
solder and de-solder. Which kind of device to get ? There are different =
wattages and if you do it wrong then you burn up your boards (as a =
friend of mine did with more soldering experience did). Do I get a =
My view (having strugled with them) is that the
non-tempearture-controlled hobbyist irons, things like the 25W ones that
I guess Radio Shack sells, are not worth trying to use. You will have
lots of problems and you will get frustrated fast.
A tempaerature-cotnroled iron is the thing to go for. I use a Weller TCP,
about 50W. A non-controlled 50W iron would get hot enough to damage the
board and components, bnt this has a thermostat built-in to keep the
temperature constant(ish). And being a 50W iron it has enoguh power to
heat up large bits of metal, like PCB ground planes, screenign cans, etc.
Others swear by electronic-controlled irons, still others by RF-heated
irons, etc. They are nice, but very expensive.
combination desolder sucker ? Or a little squeeze one
? Or a push and =
suck stick ? Do I get a soldering station ? A braider ? Too many =
different choices and combinations. I prefer something that will work =
and not damage my boards, and for desoldering, something that won't give =
me repetitive stress injury.
Unless you are sondiering buying a professioanl desoldering station (and
I doubt it), but one of those little spring-loaded pumps. Make sure you
can get repalcement (ptfe) tips for it, you will need them from time to
time.
You will ahve to practice using it. A couple of quick tips. Firstly, if
you are sure a component is bad, cut off the pins, remvoe the body of the
componet, and despdler the pins one at a time. Often you can just melt
the sodler and yank the pin out with pliers. To claer the holes in the
PCB (sometimes needed anyway), it's easiest ot melt the soder with the
iron on one side of the PCB and such from the other side.
If A pin won't desolder cleanly, resodler it (use soem new solder) and
try again. Often that does it.
As regards RSI. I once upgraded the memory board in an HP Integral. The
board I had was half-populakted with RAM chips, but it had (of course)
been wave-soldered at the factory, so all the spare holes were blocked. I
had to clar out 256 holes (16 RAM chips at 16 pins each) plus those for
decoupling capacitors etc, My hand ached a bit afterwards, but no harm
done...
Then I'm told to get a diagnostic cartridge for
C64, which works well =
expect when the PLA chip is bad and there you can't see video.
Then I should get a diagnostic harness, which works better, but again =
you need video.
Then I find a Diagnose 64 cartridge which tells you which chips are bad =
very simply with LED lights, but they are hard to find. I'm borrowing =
one right now from a friend and figuring out how to use now.
Then I'm told to get a multimeter, how do I use ? Which one to get ? I =
get one, then I'm told there is a better that could have been gotten for =
a little more money.=20
Then I'm told to get a logic probe. Which one ? Again, how to use ?
Then I'm told a logic probe is not as good as an oscilloscope. Which one =
? How to use ? Then I'm told that I don't need an oscilloscope.
Then I'm told to go to Ray Carlsen's site and that will have everything =
I need. http://personalpages.tds.net/~rcarlsen/cbm.html. Which is very =
nice, but I'm a beginner and I don't need just a bunch of schematics and =
reference material. I need step by step method which explains which =
tools, techniques etc. that I need to do.
Then I'm told that going to the Rob Clarke and Bil Herd workshop would =
give me everything that I need to know. It is good information, but not =
hands on.
OK... Let's take a step back.
The wway I repair things -- the way I learnt to repair things many years
ago -- goes like this :
1) Work out what the thing _should_ be doing
2) Find out what it actually is doing
3) Compare the two
4) Figure out what could case the observed behaviour to differ from the
expected behaviour, that's the fault. If necessary do more tests to find
out exactly what is wrong.
Now let's look at some of those steps. The scheamtic sare useful to work
out wwhat it should be doing. Somebody with experience can look at a
schemaitc and have a good idea as to what the signals, voltages, etc
should be on most points in the circuit. Yes, that is a big step for a
beginner, but most service manaulas were not written fro beginners. When
you have more experience you will come to realise that often all you
really need is the schematic. Of coruse sometimes other have been
helpful and noted down foltages (e.g. power supply otuputs voltages),
signals 9e.g. master clock signals, video timing signals) so you don't
have to work them allout for yourself.
The next problem is that you cna't useuflly detect electricity yourself.
So you need measuring insturments to do that. These will tell you what
hte circuit is actually doing, step (2) of my procedure. There are many
bits of test equipment aviaalble, some general-purpose (used with jus
abotu all electrical/electornic devices), some very specialised. Let's
stick to the general-purpose ones.
A multimeter measures voltage, current or resistnace (if you are not
familiar with those terms then you really need to start by going back a
few stanges and learnign some basic electroncis before you start fixing
computers). It's by far the most used test instrument. You se it to check
power supply voltages (a very common problem), to test swithces,
connectors, etc. It's not so useful for fiding logic fualts.
An oscilloscope (oftne shortened to 'scope) is a device that displays a
graph of votlage (vertial) agaisnt time (horizontal) (OK, I know there
are many otehr thigns it can be used for, but let's keep things simple
for now). The simpler 'scopes ahve no intenral storage and are really
only useful on repetitive waveforms. For example the AC ouptut form a
mains transformer, the signals in a swithcing regulator (but take _great_
care if you start workign on these!), video timing signals, etc. More
advanced/modern 'scopes have storage. You can get them to record voltae
agaisn time for pwehaps 10us and then display the grpah for evermore. So
you could look at the continuosuly clangin signals on a computer bus.
a logic probe is a farily simple insrument that displays on LEDs wheter a
signal is a logic 1, a logic 0 or changing. Althoguh it is simple, it's
suprisingly useful. FOr example, if a comuputer is running a program, all
the data bus lines are changing as the instructions are red by the
processor. So touchign the logic probe onto each of them in turn should
show that on the probe's LEDs. If one signal is always high or low you
know you have a fault there.
An instruemnt you haven;'t mentioned and which I find vey useful is a
logic analuser. This is cross between a logic probe and a storage 'scope.
It samples nad records a number of logic signals and displays them. OK,
it doesn't record the actuall voltages, only whether they are 0 or 1, but
it will orten record faster than a cheap storage 'scope and it will
record more signals (32 channel logic analusers are commmon, 32 channel
storage 'scopes are not).
Some years ago HP made a pocket-sized logic analyser that they called an
'advanded logic probe'. It went under the name LogicDart. It was as easy
to sue as a lotgic probe, but told you rather more about the devic eunder
test. They are not easy to find now, but I find mine (bought when it just
came out) very useful.
I don;t find things like diagnostic programs or cartridges to be useful.
The point is, they are running on a piece of defective hardware so (a)
there will always be faults they can't find (a diagnostic program is not
goign to be able ot find PSU problems in a C64, for example) nad they
might well give misleading reuslts because the hardware is
malfunctioning. They have their uses for finding problems in
non-essential areas fo the machine (for exampel if a C64 ahs sound
problems, you might have a program to put the right vaulse in the SID
chip to prosduce a known output), but not for intiial troubleshooting.
-tony
1:49 p.m.
On 24 Jun 2012 at 20:24, Tony Duell wrote:
As regards RSI. I once upgraded the memory board in an
HP Integral.
The board I had was half-populakted with RAM chips, but it had (of
course) been wave-soldered at the factory, so all the spare holes were
blocked. I had to clar out 256 holes (16 RAM chips at 16 pins each)
plus those for decoupling capacitors etc, My hand ached a bit
afterwards, but no harm done...
Lately, I've been using one of those soldapullt-in-an-iron gizmos
that come from China. The iron has a solder-sucker as a handle and a
hollow tip on a 40W iron. It does a respectable job of clearing
plugged holes and desoldering through-hold components. It can be
cocked and triggered using one hand. The free-air equilibrium
temperature is low enough so as not to lift traces. For about
USD$30, it's not a bad thing to have, though it's pretty far from a
regular rework station. Like any desoldering iron, keeping the tip
tinned is a bother, but not too awful.
But Tony's right--when it comes to soldering, practice makes perfect.
There's no substitute for that.
The same goes for troubleshooting. You learn something, apply it,
lather, rinse, repeat. There's no magic silver bullet.
--Chuck
2:32 p.m.
New subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
On Sun, 24 Jun 2012, Tony Duell wrote:
OK, but be warned you might not like my answers :-).
Nor mine. For that matter, Tony won't like my answers, either :-)
Maybe NOBODY will like the suggestions that I'm making off the top of my
head, . . .
Step ONE:
The first tool for you to buy is a DISPOSABLE multimeter.
You WILL buy a better one. LATER. When you have a clue what it is and
can do, have learned what can damage it, and have learned what aspects of
the cheap one are intolerable. YES, there are dome aspects of that cheap
one that are HORRIBLE! THIS one is only for learning about
multimeters.
Go to Harbor Freight Tools or online at harborfreight.com
The list price is $9.95 , but they are often on sale in their retail
stores for $3.99, $2.99, or free with a coupon!
#98025
#92020 or
#69096
Take apart one of their $1 or free with coupon flashlights.
How many things can you measure of it?
What happens if you use the wrong scale, or get it backwards?
measure everything else within reach!
Keep YOURSELF clear of everything! Killing yourself while measuring a
mains outlet could set you back!
WHEN you blow up the meter, go get another one, and remember what you did,
so that you won't ever do THAT again.
NOW, for the big moment, . . .
measure all of the voltages of the C64 power supply! (a likely cause of
the problems, anyway!) Look up what each voltage is supposed to be, and
decide whether they are close enough.
Even bigger excitement, . . .
Open the case! Find where ground is, and where it is supposed to be.
Now find where voltage (typically 5V DC) is supposed to be. Measure it
EVERYWHERE that it is supposed to be, including the power input pin of
every chip. Studying the "pinout" of chips to find out which one that is
supposed to be is one of your first "research" assignments. (HINT: it will
be the same on MOST of the chips)
Do NOT touch anything in the power supply of a computer until you get to
the point of knowing what can or can't bite or kill you. Most of us have
been thrown across a room now and then - best not to duplicate all of our
stupid moves.
STEP TWO:
Buy a cheap soldering iron, and some 60/40 rosin core lead solder. ($5)
You WILL buy a better one LATER. In fact, you will NEVER use this POS
one on ANYTHING that you want to keep!
Take a stack of SCRAP boards, that are irreparable and useless (you said
that your friend had destroyed some, . . . )
Unsolder a large resistor from one of the boards. Unsolder another one.
Solder them back on. remove EVERY component from the board. Put every
one back on. How many did you get backwards? How many did you destroy?
Once you've soldered and desoldered everything on a few boards, Start
planning to buy a REAL ("temperature controlled") soldering iron. (try
flea markets, eBay, etc.) You might find the POS one to be useful for
rewiring lamps and toasters, etc., but once you've used a REAL soldering
iron, you'll never want to touch the POS again.
STEP THREE:
Get a better screwdriver for taking apart your computers. A cheap one
with 1/4" bits will do until you understand WHY you need a better one.
STEP FOUR:
Learn resistor color codes. Do you know what an ohm is? farad?
"If your car headlight draws 10 amps, how many watts is it?"
Read a few basic electronics books. Used textbooks from the local
community college, perhaps? Maybe even TAKE some of those classes!
"Art of Electronics" by Horowitz is GREAT, but it costs money.
Got relatives who XMAS shop?
STEP FIVE:
Buy some kits and assemble them. Now get them to WORK.
STEP SIX:
Watch for deals on cheap (used) logic probes and even [oscillo]scopes.
Even a POS scope is fun to play with (what does the speaker signal of your
hi-fi look like?, if you put the left channel on the X axis, and right
channel on the Y axis, what do you get?) and to learn how to use one, and
to learn what you want to get when you invest in a "REAL" one.
STEP SEVEN:
Get all of the technical documents for all of the machines that you want
to work on, or are even just curious about
STEP EIGHT:
Read up on the start-up process for computers, particularly the ones that
you want to work on. "How can you tell whether the microprocessor is
getting clock?"
STEP NINE:
Have you learned enough about your cheap tools to know what to look for,
and what YOU want, in some decent tools?
STEP TEN:
Fix the computers.
If you got this far, you've almost certainly abandoned these "silly
steps", and have taken off on more interesting projects and tangents.
3:44 p.m.
New subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
On Jun 24, 2012, at 5:32 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
STEP FOUR:
Learn resistor color codes. Do you know what an ohm is? farad?
"If your car headlight draws 10 amps, how many watts is it?"
Read a few basic electronics books. Used textbooks from the local
community college, perhaps? Maybe even TAKE some of those classes!
"Art of Electronics" by Horowitz is GREAT, but it costs money.
Got relatives who XMAS shop?
I agree that AoE is excellent, but I don't know about expensive;
maybe if you buy it new. It can usually be had for under $10
used from Amazon or elsewhere. You might get an older edition,
but it's not like ohms have changed. The rear 1/3 or so of the
book, which deals with various projects, ICs and all never held
my interest for long enough to read it, but the front 2/3 is
absolutely essential reading for anyone new to electronics.
- Dave
4:23 p.m.
New subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
> "Art of Electronics" by Horowitz is
GREAT, but it costs money.
On Sun, 24 Jun 2012, David Riley wrote:
I agree that AoE is excellent, but I don't know
about expensive;
maybe if you buy it new. It can usually be had for under $10
used from Amazon or elsewhere.
Really?
Seriously, What am I doing wrong?
Amazon has one copy of the 1982 edition for $176
and no copies right now of the 1998 or 2011 editions.
If I send you $20 each, could you get some of those "under $10" copies?
7:29 p.m.
New subject: Art of Electronics (was: BEGINNER getting started)
At 4:23 PM -0700 6/24/12, Fred Cisin wrote:
What's the difference between the 1998 and 2011 editions? I have the
'98 one. It's one of the few books on the subject I can actually lay
my hands on, as it's sitting next to most of my books on Valve/Tube
Amplifiers.
If my books were well organized and shelved, I'd probably have a
frightfully large electricity and electronics section between US Navy
and civilian books on the subject.
Since the original topic appears to be the Commodore 64, didn't there
used to be a book or two on the subject of repairing them? I'm
pretty sure I have a couple in my library (I know I have or had a
couple for the early Macs).
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Photographer |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| My flickr Photostream |
| http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ |
> "Art
of Electronics" by Horowitz is GREAT, but it costs money.
On Sun, 24 Jun 2012,
David Riley wrote:
I agree that AoE is excellent, but I don't
know about expensive;
maybe if you buy it new. It can usually be had for under $10
used from Amazon or elsewhere.
Really?
Seriously, What am I doing wrong?
Amazon has one copy of the 1982 edition for $176
and no copies right now of the 1998 or 2011 editions.
If I send you $20 each, could you get some of those "under $10" copies?
8:13 p.m.
New subject: Art of Electronics (was: BEGINNER getting started)
On 24 Jun 2012 at 19:29, Zane H. Healy wrote:
What's the difference between the 1998 and 2011
editions? I have the
'98 one. It's one of the few books on the subject I can actually lay
my hands on, as it's sitting next to most of my books on Valve/Tube
Amplifiers.
Isn't it strange--Fred Terman's 1955 "Electronic and Radio
Engineering"--all 1000+ pages of it--appears to be going for near-
junk prices ($0.26-0.50). Go figure--a wonderful text from the guy
who gave Bill and Dave their larnin' is scrap now.
I guess most people want to know "how" more than "why"...
--Chuck
9:43 p.m.
New subject: Art of Electronics
On 06/24/2012 11:13 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Isn't it strange--Fred Terman's 1955
"Electronic and Radio
Engineering"--all 1000+ pages of it--appears to be going for near-
junk prices ($0.26-0.50). Go figure--a wonderful text from the guy
who gave Bill and Dave their larnin' is scrap now.
I guess most people want to know "how" more than "why"...
Where are you seeing it that cheap? I've been waiting for a copy to
show up on eBay at a decent price, but nothing yet.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
25 Jun
25 Jun
12:45 a.m.
New subject: Art of Electronics
On 25 Jun 2012 at 0:43, Dave McGuire wrote:
Where are you seeing it that cheap? I've been
waiting for a copy to
show up on eBay at a decent price, but nothing yet.
The cheap price was local.
But here's one for $6:
http://www.oldcomputerbooks.com/pages/books/B452/frederick-emmons-
terman/electronic-and-radio-engineering-1955
And it's also on eBay. Make an offer:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Electronic-and-Radio-Engineering-4th-Ed-by-
Frederick-Emmons-Terman/261007279597
Amazon shows the hardcover starting at $24.
--Chuck
7:46 a.m.
New subject: Art of Electronics
But here's one for $6:
http://www.oldcomputerbooks.com/pages/books/B452/frederick-emmons-
terman/electronic-and-radio-engineering-1955
Aaaand it's already gone... ;)
12:53 p.m.
New subject: Art of Electronics (was: BEGINNER getting started)
What's the
difference between the 1998 and 2011 editions? I have the
'98 one. It's one of the few books on the subject I can actually lay
my hands on, as it's sitting next to most of my books on Valve/Tube
Amplifiers.
Isn't it strange--Fred Terman's 1955 "Electronic and Radio
Engineering"--all 1000+ pages of it--appears to be going for near-
junk prices ($0.26-0.50). Go figure--a wonderful text from the guy
who gave Bill and Dave their larnin' is scrap now.
I guess most people want to know "how" more than "why"... 
25 Jun
25 Jun
11:39 a.m.
New subject: Art of Electronics (was: BEGINNER getting started)
>>If I send you $20 each, could you get some of
those "under $10" copies?
On Mon, 25 Jun 2012, Alexandre Souza - Listas
wrote:
I'd pay $30. The cheapest in Brazil is around
$300 :o(
How much does Abebooks charge to ship to Brazil?
Interesting how there can be a sequence of aggregators linked to
aggregators, linked to aggregators. The actual book listed in addall, is
sold by Abebooks, on behalf of VBK, yet seems to work seamlessly (IFF it
actually arrives)
11:46 a.m.
New subject: Art of Electronics
On 06/25/2012 02:39 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
This is a good point. Alexandre, I have a bunch of stuff here that's
yours, and I should be able to ship it down to you when you're ready.
Feel free to add a book or two to that pile. (if you do so, however,
remember that I've moved, so I don't believe you have my current address)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
>> If I
send you $20 each, could you get some of those "under $10" copies?
On
Mon, 25 Jun 2012, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
I'd pay $30. The cheapest in Brazil is
around $300 :o(
How much does Abebooks charge to ship to Brazil? 
9:48 p.m.
New subject: Art of Electronics (was: BEGINNER getting started)
On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 11:39:11 -0700 (PDT)
Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
They don't, it's up to their vendors. They're actually a middleman as you
note below. But they do show the shipping prices on each item, once your
location is set.
>>If I
send you $20 each, could you get some of those "under $10"
>>copies?
On Mon, 25 Jun 2012, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
I'd pay $30. The cheapest in Brazil is
around $300 :o(
How much does Abebooks charge to ship to Brazil? Interesting how there can be a sequence of aggregators
linked to
aggregators, linked to aggregators. The actual book listed in addall, is
sold by Abebooks, on behalf of VBK, yet seems to work seamlessly (IFF it
actually arrives)
I've used AbeBooks for years. It was recommended to me by a
professor/author with a house full of books. The service is excellent and
the one dispute I had was taken care of to my satisfaction. And I live much
further away from them than Alexandre does ;-)
And BTW most of the books set for 10-20 day shipping come in a week. I buy
only from the 5 star sellers, very rarely the 4 star ones and I have no
problems. Good site.
26 Jun
26 Jun
6:51 a.m.
New subject: Art of Electronics
On 6/26/2012 12:48 AM, microcode at zoho.com wrote:
And BTW most of the books set for 10-20 day shipping
come in a week. I buy
only from the 5 star sellers, very rarely the 4 star ones and I have no
problems. Good site.
I've used abebooks while searching for original first edition of books
published in the UK from 100 years ago....
If microcode is referring to USPS Media Mail delivery in the US, be
aware that it can definitely take the better part of a month to be
delivered. I ordered a book from a seller (different service than abe)
and they shipped it media mail. It took upwards of three weeks, and was
not the right book(very similar title, same author/publisher, so mistake
seemed honest enough). Shipped it back, and then they shipped the right
one. It took almost two months to get what I ordered.
I'll always be paying an extra $10 for faster shipping --- whether the
book is a $4.00 book or not.
The shipper was only located a few states away on the East Coast. I
joked about being able to walk the distance in a shorter time.
Keith
8:57 a.m.
New subject: Art of Electronics
On 06/26/2012 09:51 AM, Keith Monahan wrote:
If microcode is referring to USPS Media Mail delivery
in the US, be
aware that it can definitely take the better part of a month to be
delivered. I ordered a book from a seller (different service than abe)
and they shipped it media mail. It took upwards of three weeks, and was
not the right book(very similar title, same author/publisher, so mistake
seemed honest enough). Shipped it back, and then they shipped the right
one. It took almost two months to get what I ordered.
I'll always be paying an extra $10 for faster shipping --- whether the
book is a $4.00 book or not.
The shipper was only located a few states away on the East Coast. I
joked about being able to walk the distance in a shorter time.
It continually amazes me that that organization is still in business.
It surely wouldn't be if the gov't wasn't propping it up.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
28 Jun
28 Jun
8:02 a.m.
New subject: Art of Electronics
On 6/26/12 10:57 AM, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 06/26/2012 09:51 AM, Keith Monahan wrote:
It ain't really the government propping up USPS, it's the dead-tree
spammers. A post office manager-type told me recently that bulk mail is
USPS's "primary profit center".
Which is why nobody cares whether you want all that crap or not - you
can't turn it off and you can't request that they deliver mail addressed
only to specific residents.
Doc
If microcode is referring to USPS Media Mail
delivery in the US, be
aware that it can definitely take the better part of a month to be
delivered. I ordered a book from a seller (different service than abe)
and they shipped it media mail. It took upwards of three weeks, and was
not the right book(very similar title, same author/publisher, so mistake
seemed honest enough). Shipped it back, and then they shipped the right
one. It took almost two months to get what I ordered.
I'll always be paying an extra $10 for faster shipping --- whether the
book is a $4.00 book or not.
The shipper was only located a few states away on the East Coast. I
joked about being able to walk the distance in a shorter time.
It continually amazes me that that organization is still in business.
It surely wouldn't be if the gov't wasn't propping it up. 
8:27 a.m.
New subject: Art of Electronics
On 6/28/2012 9:02 AM, Doc wrote:
Which is why nobody cares whether you want all that
crap or not - you
can't turn it off and you can't request that they deliver mail addressed
only to specific residents.
In Canada you can do that. I think they charge you for that option.
Doc
Ben.
26 Jun
26 Jun
7:18 a.m.
New subject: Art of Electronics (was: BEGINNER getting started)
On Tue, 26 Jun 2012 04:48:19 +0000, microcode wrote
On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 11:39:11 -0700 (PDT)
A bookseller and aggregator that non-Americans might want to look at is
betterworldbooks.com. All listed prices, including third-party listings, include
worldwide shipping, which often means lower total cost for those outside the US,
especially on small orders.
--
Kevin Schoedel <schoedel at kw.igs.net> VA3TCS
How much does Abebooks charge to ship to Brazil?
They don't, it's up to their vendors. They're actually a middleman as you
note below. But they do show the shipping prices on each item, once
your location is set. 
3:16 p.m.
New subject: Art of Electronics (was: BEGINNER getting started)
incidentally for those who don't want to patronize Amazon, many or dare I say most of
the vendors also have similar eBay IDs. You can often contact them through eBay's
system.
25 Jun
25 Jun
12:44 p.m.
New subject: Art of Electronics (was: BEGINNER getting started)
If my books were well organized and shelved, I'd
probably have a
frightfully large electricity and electronics section between US Navy
and civilian books on the subject.
I keep on fidning books I'd forgotten I owned. The other day I foudn a
book on telephones from 1911. It's fascinating.,..
Since the original topic appears to be the Commodore 64, didn't there
used to be a book or two on the subject of repairing them? I'm
pretty sure I have a couple in my library (I know I have or had a
couple for the early Macs).
Such books gernally fall into 2 classes..
The origianl service manual for the C64 (I think I have it somewhere) is
jsut schematic sand parts lists. The poitn is that an experienced
engineer doens't ened anything more. He/she knows how a computer works,
knows aht the ICs do, etc. So all that's needed is a description of how
they go togehter.
The second class tend to be lists of stock faults -- if toy get this
problem, chanve that IC. As I mentioned, they work most of the time, but
not all the time, and I'd rahther learn (and teach) general methods that
work all the time and which cna be easily adapted to other devices
That aaid, I have seend a 'Sams Compufact' manual for the 1541 disk
drive, and I assuem there must have been one fro the C64 too. It's pretty
good. It does incldue the schematics. It doesn include proper
fault-tracing infroamtion. It does have fault-didnign flowcharts that
will work. Might be worth tryign to find the C64 one.
-tony
28 Jun
28 Jun
4:40 a.m.
New subject: Art of Electronics (was: BEGINNER getting started)
On Mon, 25 Jun 2012, Tony Duell wrote:
I don't know if this helps, but the 1985 Sams Photofact Index I have here
had two entries under 'Commodore':
VIC20 (REV. C) -CC3
64 -CC4
If my books
were well organized and shelved, I'd probably have a
frightfully large electricity and electronics section between US Navy
and civilian books on the subject.
I keep on fidning books I'd forgotten I owned. The other day I foudn a
book on telephones from 1911. It's fascinating.,..
Since the original topic appears to be the Commodore 64, didn't there
used to be a book or two on the subject of repairing them? I'm
pretty sure I have a couple in my library (I know I have or had a
couple for the early Macs).
Such books gernally fall into 2 classes..
The origianl service manual for the C64 (I think I have it somewhere) is
jsut schematic sand parts lists. The poitn is that an experienced
engineer doens't ened anything more. He/she knows how a computer works,
knows aht the ICs do, etc. So all that's needed is a description of how
they go togehter.
The second class tend to be lists of stock faults -- if toy get this
problem, chanve that IC. As I mentioned, they work most of the time, but
not all the time, and I'd rahther learn (and teach) general methods that
work all the time and which cna be easily adapted to other devices
That aaid, I have seend a 'Sams Compufact' manual for the 1541 disk
drive, and I assuem there must have been one fro the C64 too. It's pretty
good. It does incldue the schematics. It doesn include proper
fault-tracing infroamtion. It does have fault-didnign flowcharts that
will work. Might be worth tryign to find the C64 one.
24 Jun
24 Jun
7:44 p.m.
New subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
On Jun 24, 2012, at 7:23 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
Well, I suppose it varies by availability. I got both my recent copies
(as recently as 5 years ago) through Powell's and a used bookstore in
Mountain View when I was visiting there. Both were under $20, to be
sure, but there was a time it was pretty easy to find them cheaply.
Perhaps my info is out of date. The cheapest I can find right now is
$22.55 with $4.40 shipping:
http://www.addall.com/New/compare.cgi?dispCurr=USD&isbn=9780521370950
- Dave
> "Art
of Electronics" by Horowitz is GREAT, but it costs money.
On Sun, 24 Jun 2012,
David Riley wrote:
I agree that AoE is excellent, but I don't
know about expensive;
maybe if you buy it new. It can usually be had for under $10
used from Amazon or elsewhere.
Really?
Seriously, What am I doing wrong?
Amazon has one copy of the 1982 edition for $176
and no copies right now of the 1998 or 2011 editions.
If I send you $20 each, could you get some of those "under $10" copies?
7:52 p.m.
New subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
At 10:44 PM -0400 6/24/12, David Riley wrote:
On Jun 24, 2012, at 7:23 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
Well, I suppose it varies by availability. I got both my recent copies
(as recently as 5 years ago) through Powell's and a used bookstore in
Mountain View when I was visiting there. Both were under $20, to be
sure, but there was a time it was pretty easy to find them cheaply.
Perhaps my info is out of date. The cheapest I can find right now is
$22.55 with $4.40 shipping:
http://www.addall.com/New/compare.cgi?dispCurr=USD&isbn=9780521370950
You might want to try www.abebooks.com, or Alibris (no, I didn't check).
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Photographer |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| My flickr Photostream |
| http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ |
>
"Art of Electronics" by Horowitz is GREAT, but it costs money.
On Sun,
24 Jun 2012, David Riley wrote:
I agree that AoE is excellent, but I don't
know about expensive;
maybe if you buy it new. It can usually be had for under $10
used from Amazon or elsewhere.
Really?
Seriously, What am I doing wrong?
Amazon has one copy of the 1982 edition for $176
and no copies right now of the 1998 or 2011 editions.
If I send you $20 each, could you get some of those "under $10" copies?
7:57 p.m.
New subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
look here for commodore books..
check under the HARDWARE section for repairing, etc
http://www.bombjack.org/commodore/books.htm
Dan.
8:17 p.m.
New subject: Commodore Books (was: BEGINNER getting started)
At 10:57 PM -0400 6/24/12, Dan Gahlinger wrote:
look here for commodore books..
check under the HARDWARE section for repairing, etc
http://www.bombjack.org/commodore/books.htm
Dan.
WOW! Thanks for that link! I have quite a few of those books, but
there are also quite a few there that I've never even heard of! :-)
I'm going to have to spend some time with a couple of them!
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Photographer |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| My flickr Photostream |
| http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ |
8:36 p.m.
New subject: Commodore Books
On 06/24/2012 11:17 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote:
*snicker* So much for that darkroom, Zane. ;)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
look here for
commodore books..
check under the HARDWARE section for repairing, etc
http://www.bombjack.org/commodore/books.htm
Dan.
WOW! Thanks for that link! I have quite a few of those books, but
there are also quite a few there that I've never even heard of! :-) I'm
going to have to spend some time with a couple of them!
9:57 p.m.
New subject: Commodore Books
At 11:36 PM -0400 6/24/12, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 06/24/2012 11:17 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote:
Nothing says I can't work on straightening up the Commodore portion
of my collection while making room for a Darkroom! :-) Besides my
Commodore 64 has to be moved from where it is currently sitting
before I can start work on the Darkroom (so will my PDP-11/73).
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Photographer |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| My flickr Photostream |
| http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ |
WOW! Thanks for that link! I have quite a few
of those books, but
there are also quite a few there that I've never even heard of! :-) I'm
going to have to spend some time with a couple of them!
*snicker* So much for that darkroom, Zane. ;) 
25 Jun
25 Jun
6 a.m.
New subject: Commodore Books
Nothing says I can't work on straightening up the
Commodore portion
of my collection while making room for a Darkroom! :-) Besides my
Commodore 64 has to be moved from where it is currently sitting
before I can start work on the Darkroom (so will my PDP-11/73).
You should put your Commodore 64 on your desk, as my C128 is. :)
--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- I may be underpaid, but I underwork just to make it even. ------------------
6:55 a.m.
New subject: Commodore Books
At 6:00 AM -0700 6/25/12, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
I'd love to, the problem is that there simply isn't room in my home
office for a Commodore 64 or a VT420 (for the PDP-11).
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Photographer |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| My flickr Photostream |
| http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ |
Nothing says I
can't work on straightening up the Commodore portion
of my collection while making room for a Darkroom! :-) Besides my
Commodore 64 has to be moved from where it is currently sitting
before I can start work on the Darkroom (so will my PDP-11/73).
You should put your Commodore 64 on your desk, as my C128 is. :) 
21 Oct
21 Oct
9:53 p.m.
New subject: Another computer scale model set on ebay
What are these models of ?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/221143543883
10:50 p.m.
New subject: Another computer scale model set on ebay
On Sun, 21 Oct 2012, mc68010 wrote:
What are these models of ?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/221143543883
Is it a Singer System 10? I'm not that familiar with these so someone else
might know for sure.
26 Oct
26 Oct
7:04 p.m.
New subject: Another computer scale model set on ebay
On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 9:53 PM, mc68010 <mc68010 at gmail.com> wrote:
What are these models of ?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/221143543883
This model set just sold for $710.00
7:38 p.m.
New subject: Another computer scale model set on ebay
Wow. Did anyone here figure out what system they are? Very detailed/attractive set.
-----Original Message-----
From: Glen Slick <glen.slick at gmail.com>
Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 19:04:37
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Another computer scale model set on ebay
On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 9:53 PM, mc68010 <mc68010 at gmail.com> wrote:
What are these models of ?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/221143543883
This model set just sold for $710.00
7:50 p.m.
New subject: Another computer scale model set on ebay
On 10/26/2012 7:38 PM, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Oct 21, 2012
at 9:53 PM, mc68010 <mc68010 at gmail.com> wrote:
Did we ever decide what they were ?
What are these
models of ?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/221143543883
This model set just sold for $710.00
27 Oct
27 Oct
1:59 p.m.
New subject: Another computer scale model set on ebay
On Fri, 26 Oct 2012, mc68010 wrote:
On 10/26/2012 7:38 PM, barythrin at gmail.com wrote:
After I replied on Monday that I thought it might be a Singer System 10, I
found some black and white photos of an actual System 10 that looked
identical to the model, so I'm pretty much 100% certain that it is indeed
a System 10.
On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 9:53 PM, mc68010
<mc68010 at gmail.com> wrote:
Did we ever decide what they were ? What are these models of ?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/221143543883
This model set just sold for $710.00 
3:21 a.m.
New subject: Another computer scale model set on ebay
On 27/10/2012 03:38, barythrin at gmail.com wrote:
Wow. Did anyone here figure out what system they are?
Very detailed/attractive set.
Well if as the description says, some say "Singer" it would be a
Singer. It looks like a "System 10" which later became the ICL System
10, and then 25.
I can't find any pictures of the System 10 but there is one of the
System-25 and more info about Singer here:-
http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/CCS/res/res47.htm
but beyond that virtually nothing. Even the normally voluminous Wiki
page is exceedingly spares:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singer_System_10
and there is nothing in Bitsavers....
-----Original Message-----
From: Glen Slick <glen.slick at gmail.com>
Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 19:04:37
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Another computer scale model set on ebay
On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 9:53 PM, mc68010 <mc68010 at gmail.com> wrote:
That sounds very reasonable given the fact its of a machine which had at
best a "niche market"....
--
Dave Wade G4UGM
Illegitimi Non Carborundum
What are these models of ?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/221143543883
This model set just sold for $710.00
26 Oct
26 Oct
7:49 p.m.
New subject: Another computer scale model set on ebay
wow
On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 9:04 PM, Glen Slick <glen.slick at gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 9:53 PM, mc68010 <mc68010
at gmail.com> wrote:
What are these models of ?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/221143543883
This model set just sold for $710.00
8:11 p.m.
New subject: Another computer scale model set on ebay
On 10/26/2012 07:04 PM, Glen Slick wrote:
On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 9:53 PM, mc68010 <mc68010
at gmail.com> wrote:
(British) Singer System 10 maybe? Two-tone, boxy appearance...
--Chuck
What are these models of ?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/221143543883
This model set just sold for $710.00 
9:06 p.m.
New subject: Another computer scale model set on ebay
What shocks me, is that the damned *MODEL* went for more than
the real thing would likely go for.....
N0body
-----Original Message-----
From: cclist at sydex.com
Sent: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 20:11:37 -0700
To:
Subject: Re: Another computer scale model set on ebay
On 10/26/2012 07:04 PM, Glen Slick wrote:
____________________________________________________________
GET FREE SMILEYS FOR YOUR IM & EMAIL - Learn more at http://www.inbox.com/smileys
Works with AIM?, MSN? Messenger, Yahoo!? Messenger, ICQ?, Google Talk? and most webmails
On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 9:53 PM, mc68010
<mc68010 at gmail.com> wrote:
(British) Singer System 10 maybe? Two-tone, boxy appearance...
--Chuck What are these models of ?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/221143543883
This model set just sold for $710.00
9:49 p.m.
New subject: Another computer scale model set on ebay
On 10/27/2012 12:06 AM, N0body H0me wrote:
What shocks me, is that the damned *MODEL* went for
more than
the real thing would likely go for.....
You haven't seen many *really* old or *really* rare machines hit
eBay, apparently.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
10:27 p.m.
New subject: Another computer scale model set on ebay
Naw, I don't follow it close, I'll have to admit.
I suppose I should a said that "When I was actively
collecting this crap (more than a decade ago), I'd
a paid that much for the REAL THING."
But I don't do 'investment grade' collecting no
more...
N0body
-----Original Message-----
From: mcguire at neurotica.com
Sent: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 00:49:21 -0400
To:
Subject: Re: Another computer scale model set on ebay
On 10/27/2012 12:06 AM, N0body H0me wrote:
____________________________________________________________
Receive Notifications of Incoming Messages
Easily monitor multiple email accounts & access them with a click.
Visit http://www.inbox.com/notifier and check it out!
What shocks me, is that the damned *MODEL* went
for more than
the real thing would likely go for.....
You haven't seen many *really* old or *really* rare machines hit
eBay, apparently.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
27 Oct
27 Oct
3:23 a.m.
New subject: Another computer scale model set on ebay
On 27/10/2012 04:11, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 10/26/2012 07:04 PM, Glen Slick wrote:
No they were US originally. ICL bought the brand but as far as I know
all Singers were US made...
On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 9:53 PM, mc68010
<mc68010 at gmail.com> wrote:
(British) Singer System 10 maybe? Two-tone, boxy appearance...
What are these models of ?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/221143543883
This model set just sold for $710.00 --Chuck
--
Dave Wade G4UGM
Illegitimi Non Carborundum
10:13 a.m.
New subject: Another computer scale model set on ebay
On 10/27/2012 03:23 AM, Dave Wade wrote:
No they were US originally. ICL bought the brand but
as far as I know
all Singers were US made...
I take your point.
I guess it depends on your viewpoint. Toyota to me (and I suspect a
large number of people) a Japanese car company, no matter where their
product is actually made.
Is Volvo Chinese or Swedish?
I'm surprised that Bitsavers has nothing on Singer, or even Link
Division (part of Singer 1968-1988).
--Chuck
10:29 a.m.
New subject: Another computer scale model set on ebay
my phillips p1000 is purdyer
http://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/7944707284/in/photostream/lightbox/
10:58 a.m.
New subject: Another computer scale model set on ebay
On 10/27/12 10:13 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 10/27/2012 03:23 AM, Dave Wade wrote:
I'm surprised that Bitsavers has nothing on
Singer, or even Link Division (part of Singer 1968-1988).
I have some things in the queue.
The model was bought by the same deep pockets collector in the south who got the Univac I
29 Oct
29 Oct
2:59 p.m.
New subject: System Ten Manuals (was Re: Another computer scale model set on ebay)
On 10/27/12 10:13 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
I'm surprised that Bitsavers has nothing on
Singer, or even Link Division (part of Singer 1968-1988).
What I have scanned is now on line, including the service manual.
4:53 p.m.
New subject: System Ten Manuals (was Re: Another computer scale model set on ebay)
On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 4:59 PM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
I was able to score a few odd Singer docs on ebay recently. They are
"in the queue," meaning they'll be online sometime in the next 2-3
years :)
j
I'm
surprised that Bitsavers has nothing on Singer, or even Link Division
(part of Singer 1968-1988).
What I have scanned is now on line, including the service manual.
7:17 p.m.
New subject: System Ten Manuals (was Re: Another computer scale model set on ebay)
On 10/29/12 4:53 PM, Jason T wrote:
On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 4:59 PM, Al Kossow<aek at
bitsavers.org> wrote:
I was able to score a few odd Singer docs on ebay recently. They are
"in the queue," meaning they'll be online sometime in the next 2-3
years :)
I assume they came from the same guy thats been selling off all the rest.
Good to know they went to someone on the list.
I'm
surprised that Bitsavers has nothing on Singer, or even Link Division
(part of Singer 1968-1988).
What I have scanned is now on line, including the service manual.
24 Jun
24 Jun
8:20 p.m.
New subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
>http://www.addall.com/New/compare.cgi?dispCurr=USD&isbn=9780521370950
On
Sun, 24 Jun 2012, Zane H. Healy wrote:
You might want to try www.abebooks.com, or Alibris
(no, I didn't check).
although an intermediary, that IS an abebooks listing
8:51 p.m.
New subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
On Jun 24, 2012, at 11:20 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
On Sun,
24 Jun 2012, Zane H. Healy wrote:
For now, yes. Addall.com is a pretty nice aggregator aimed mostly at
textbooks, and I've used it to find some pretty nice deals in the past.
In this case, the abebooks.com listing came a few bucks under the
Alibris one.
- Dave
You might want to try www.abebooks.com, or
Alibris (no, I didn't check).
although an intermediary, that IS an abebooks listing
25 Jun
25 Jun
12:16 p.m.
New subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
Really?
Seriously, What am I doing wrong?
Amazon has one copy of the 1982 edition for $176
and no copies right now of the 1998 or 2011 editions.
I've not seen the 2011 edition, is it worth getting? Is there a new
version of the lab manual?
Yes, it's an expensive book if bought new. but it's not wone you 'grow
out of' quickly. I refer to it quite often...
-tony
24 Jun
24 Jun
4:18 p.m.
New subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
________________________________
From: Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com>
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2012 5:32 PM
Subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
STEP FOUR:
Learn resistor color codes.?
------
Always hated this one... being color blind and all.
Christopher.
6:17 p.m.
New subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
Nor mine. For that matter, Tony won't like my
answers, either :-)
Maybe NOBODY will like the suggestions that I'm making off the top of
my head, . . .
Step ONE:
The first tool for you to buy is a DISPOSABLE multimeter.
You WILL buy a better one. LATER. [...]
STEP TWO:
Buy a cheap soldering iron, and some 60/40 rosin core lead solder.
($5) You WILL buy a better one LATER. [...]
STEP THREE:
STEP FOUR:
[...]
STEP TEN:
Fix the computers.
Actually, I like them. I like them all.
This deserves to be put somewhere where people contemplating learning
about electronics can find it easily. It's perhaps the best short
summary of how to learn about electricity and electronics that I've
ever read.
If you got this far, you've almost certainly
abandoned these "silly
steps", and have taken off on more interesting projects and tangents.
Indeed. By the time you get to step ten, you no longer need the list.
But, as someone is supposed to have said of music, you can't safely
break rules unless you understand them thoroughly.
/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
7:03 p.m.
New subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
Interesting how many of these things I did, without the tutorial
Horrid multi-meter and iron included , I wouldn't change the thing. I
appreciate my iron all the more because I used the cheap one first.
Jim
7:28 p.m.
New subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
On Sun, 24 Jun 2012, Jim Brain wrote:
Interesting how many of these things I did, without
the tutorial
I never had a tutorial.
And the classes on electronics were tube based with a casual intro to
transistors after several semesters. I was way too impatient to go that
route
Horrid multi-meter and iron included , I wouldn't
change the thing. I
appreciate my iron all the more because I used the cheap one first.
It SHOULDN'T be necessary to start with cheap tools, but I couldn't
afford anything else, and it sure taught me what I wanted and created
appreciation for good ones.
Back then, the cheap hand tools were AWFUL! And even the good ones
weren't much better than Harbor Freight is now. In the 1970s, Craftsman
got to be WAY worse than Harbor Freight is now (off-center broaching,
etc.).
7:40 p.m.
New subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
At 7:28 PM -0700 6/24/12, Fred Cisin wrote:
Back then, the cheap hand tools were AWFUL! And even
the good ones
weren't much better than Harbor Freight is now. In the 1970s, Craftsman
got to be WAY worse than Harbor Freight is now (off-center broaching,
etc.).
For good hand tools for working on electronics, I like the good
German made tools I find at "Rock and Gem" shows. The dealers expect
the buyers to use them in working on jewelry. Having said that, most
of my tools aren't that nice, as the good stuff is expensive!
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Photographer |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| My flickr Photostream |
| http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ |
25 Jun
25 Jun
12:47 p.m.
New subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
For good hand tools for working on electronics, I like
the good
German made tools I find at "Rock and Gem" shows. The dealers expect
My favourite precision screwdrivers, tweexers, etc are not suprisingly
Swiss (think : watchmaking). THey were not cheap!
the buyers to use them in working on jewelry. Having
said that, most
of my tools aren't that nice, as the good stuff is expensive!
Err, yes. I know the provlem. Good tools are an invenstment, they will
last avery long time. That's fine, if like me, you use them every day,
and depend on them for good results. It's perhaps not so important if you
only fix things occasionally.
-tony
24 Jun
24 Jun
8:23 p.m.
New subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
On 6/24/2012 9:28 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
I think it "should" be necessary to start
with the cheap ones, or at
least high recommended:
* As you noted in the tutorial and here, it teaches one the
importance/value of the good tools
* It's a smaller investment, as you note. It also teaches one about
the importance of buying the correctly-priced tool for the job. For
example, in woodworking, I have a $19.95 Menards "Tool Shop" belt
sander. I know it's cheap, but I also know that it's the
appropriate tool for my use, as I rarely if ever need a belt
sander. Instead of buying an expensive belt sander, which I will
use 4 or 5 more times in my lifetime, I spent the funds on a nice
set of Dewalt 18V cordless tools, and I use those all the time. The
corollary to this is my uneasiness around people who only buy the
best tools, but don't use them often enough. Yes, I'm glad they
bought the good stuff, but it doesn't seem they'll ever get enough
value out of them. It seems such a shallow view of the investment.
We all know some friend who owns a huge set of Snap-On tools (or
some other tool investment), and uses the 3/8" socket set once a year.
* Sometimes the cheaper tool really is better. I've used a whole host
of desoldering "vacuum" solutions, and some of the very expensive
professional options do indeed work well. But, for utility,
portability, and ease of use, the $3.99 solder sucker bulb I bought
back in 1981 or so from Radio Shack works perfectly. I can throw it
in the box when I go the shows, I've learned how to use it well, and
it and solder braid make a cool tag team of desoldering tools. I
know others will curse the little red bulb, but it works well for
me, short of hauling my pro station to a show.
* Once you no longer use the tools, you can hold onto them for
emergencies (the old RS pencil iron sits in the RV, for the rare
emergency), or you can let others (who don't yet appreciate the good
tools) use them when at public events. I swear by my WESD51 Weller,
but not everyone appreciates a digital station and I'd hate for it
to get broken.
* It rationalizes the expense of the good tools. When I started, I'd
have argued for hours with the Weller owners that they just "wasted"
their money on an overpriced heating element. (Maybe not that
extreme, but I'd probably have thought it). But, when I decided to
buy a Weller unit, I didn't think twice about the price. It was
worth it, and it is. (Cue debate on Weller versus Hakko/etc. for
another thread)
So, I think your original thought is correct. Buy the cheap tools,
learn to appreciate them, and then move on, all the wiser.
Jim
On Sun, 24 Jun 2012, Jim Brain wrote:
And the classes on electronics were tube based with a casual intro to
transistors after several semesters. I was way too impatient to go
that route
The old Radio Shack "150 in 1" kit, some flea market broken
electronics
gadgets, and the Forrest Mims little handbooks from RS were my start.
Horrid
multi-meter and iron included , I wouldn't change the thing. I
appreciate my iron all the more because I used the cheap one first.
It
SHOULDN'T be necessary to start with cheap tools, but I couldn't
afford anything else, and it sure taught me what I wanted and created
appreciation for good ones.
25 Jun
25 Jun
1:04 p.m.
New subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
On 6/24/2012 9:28 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
As I've mentioned before, I found the Philips EE xseries kits ot be the
most educational, if only becausse you got to handle 'real' components,
For (a trivial) example, you had to pick out the right resutor to used,
identifying it by the coloured bands.
Back when you and I started (I guesS), jumble sale/flea market
electronics was old radios, mostly. They might be valved or
transistorised, but yo uhd a good chance of being able to identify the
components, get replaements, or strip the thing and use the bits
elsewhere. Now a lot of consumer devices consist of one IC, maybe even an
direct-on-board oone with a blob of epoxy on top. There's little you can
do to fix or reuse bis for such things :-(
[...]
On Sun, 24 Jun 2012, Jim Brain wrote:
And the classes on electronics were tube based with a casual intro to
transistors after several semesters. I was way too impatient to go
that route
The old Radio Shack "150 in 1" kit, some flea market broken
electronics
gadgets, and the Forrest Mims little handbooks from RS were my start. * Sometimes the cheaper tool really is better.
I've used a whole host
of desoldering "vacuum" solutions, and some of the very expensive
professional options do indeed work well. But, for utility,
portability, and ease of use, the $3.99 solder sucker bulb I bought
back in 1981 or so from Radio Shack works perfectly. I can throw it
in the box when I go the shows, I've learned how to use it well, and
it and solder braid make a cool tag team of desoldering tools. I
know others will curse the little red bulb, but it works well for
me, short of hauling my pro station to a show.
I think it's worth remenmebrign that it's not always necessary to use the
most complex/expnsive tool.
I do an awful lot of fault trasing with a logic probe. Sure a 'socpe or
LA will tell me more,. but the probe will pick up 'silly faults' -- a
data bus line shorted to ground, a clock that isn't running, etc. And it
needs no settign up, you just put it on the pin and see what is going on.
Of course sometimes I need more complex instruments, but only after I've
checkd for simple faults.
Another example. My father and I were doing a bit of DIY and we needed to
dril la couple of holes in a metal bracket. My father went off to get the
electric drill and an extension lead. While he was gone. I grabbed the
hand drill and made the hoes. Sure a power drill is wuicker than a hand
drill, but if you include the time in fetching it, settign it up, etc,
then the hand drill can be faster fo jsut a couple of holes.
Use the reight tools!
-tony
12:39 p.m.
New subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
On Sun, 24 Jun 2012, Jim Brain wrote:
I have never had a single formal lesson on electronics. Well, OK, they
tried to teach one at school, but it decented int o farce when I pointed
out how much of what was eign taught was nonsnese....
Interesting how many of these things I did,
without the tutorial
I never had a tutorial. And the classes on electronics were tube based with a
casual intro to
transistors after several semesters. I was way too impatient to go that
route
I learnt trnasisotrs first, then vlave,s then ICs. That's probably
abnormal...
-tony
24 Jun
24 Jun
7:17 p.m.
New subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
> STEP TEN:
On Sun, 24 Jun 2012, Mouse
wrote:
Actually, I like them. I like them all.
This deserves to be put somewhere where people contemplating learning
about electronics can find it easily. It's perhaps the best short
summary of how to learn about electricity and electronics that I've
ever read.
Thank you!
It needs a lot of work, I just wrote that spontaneously as an example.
It needs to be "fleshed out" with more detail, and by people who actually
know what they are doing.
In particular, I'm very concerned about the need for safety precautions.
Not everybody will agree with the concept of "buy crappy tools, so that
you HAVE them, and then upgrade". The wording needs to be fine-tuned to
reduce the offense to the sensibilities of those who appreciate fine
tools. 40+ years ago, when I replaced my generic 10mm socket and
generic 1/4-20 and 6mmx1.0 taps with Snap-On, I knew that eventually I
would have a "complete" set of quality tools, but if I were to have
STARTED with a full set of quality, I couldn't have gotten started.
More needs to be added about appropriate projects to learn with,
I learned soldering with some Heathkits, and then later populating a
couple of generic blank XT motherboards with Augat sockets. I don't
think that such blank boards are available any more.
What are some good sources for beginner projects?
Who here can write out some basic steps for how to check out a "dead"
computer?
If you got
this far, you've almost certainly abandoned these "silly
steps", and have taken off on more interesting projects and tangents.
Indeed.
By the time you get to step ten, you no longer need the list.
But, as someone is supposed to have said of music, you can't safely
break rules unless you understand them thoroughly.
7:25 p.m.
New subject: Learning with kits, was Re: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
On 06/24/2012 10:17 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
More needs to be added about appropriate projects to
learn with,
I learned soldering with some Heathkits, and then later populating a
couple of generic blank XT motherboards with Augat sockets. I don't
think that such blank boards are available any more.
What are some good sources for beginner projects?
A quick google will turn up scads of them. There are more kits
available today than ever before, and orders of magnitude more (MANY
orders of magnitude more) than in the Heathkit era. These are very good
days for electronics as a hobby.
Many of them are cheap enough, and otherwise appropriate, to use as a
good vehicle for learning, I think.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
25 Jun
25 Jun
12:36 p.m.
New subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
Not everybody will agree with the concept of "buy
crappy tools, so that
My ears are burning :-)
you HAVE them, and then upgrade". The wording
needs to be fine-tuned to
reduce the offense to the sensibilities of those who appreciate fine
tools. 40+ years ago, when I replaced my generic 10mm socket and
generic 1/4-20 and 6mmx1.0 taps with Snap-On, I knew that eventually I
would have a "complete" set of quality tools, but if I were to have
STARTED with a full set of quality, I couldn't have gotten started.
I appreicate the problem. The sort of socket set I would _like_ to buy,
if I was buying one now, is over 10 times the price of a 'crappy' one.
However, there is a case to be made, I think, for buying the few tools
you need -- and getting high quality ones -- rather than buying a large
set of cheap tools.
FOr example, you mentioned taps. I tend to buy only the sizes I need, anf
get good ones, rathen than buyign one of the cheap imported srts with
plenty of sizes I don;'t need and made from 'steel' that appears to
actualyl be cheese...
More needs to be added about appropriate projects to learn with,
I learned soldering with some Heathkits, and then later populating a
couple of generic blank XT motherboards with Augat sockets. I don't
think that such blank boards are available any more.
What are some good sources for beginner projects?
There are sill pletny of kits out there -- Velleman, for exmaple. But
they are gernally not as 'complete' as Heathkits. You find that thigns
like th box, mountign hardware, connectors, etc are not included. Often
you get the PCB and the components to put on it, and nothing more.
They are also less educational as regards electroncis than older kits.
Many now incldue a programemd microcontroller and you do nto get the
source code. SO you cna't really understand what it's doing. Unlike a
circuit made from discrete transistors (or valves) where you can
understand what is going on.
as I said, assembly kits is a good way to learn to use the tools, but
it's not all you need to be able to do.
Who here can write out some basic steps for how to check out a "dead"
computer?
It depends -- a lot -- on the computer. I've writen a set of articles for
HPCC (and the only way to get them at the moment is to join HPCC, sorry!)
on repairign the HP9800 calculators. I do include an intital checkout
procedurte, but must of it would not apply to other machines.
That said, there are some basic tests that youy do on just aobut any
microcomptuer :
1) Check the power supplies. Cheak the voltages nad check them for
ripply. Power supply problems are suprisingly common, and no computer
works porperly if it's not powered properly
2) Check the processor clock signal.
3) Check the reset signal. Make sure the processor isn't being held reset
(or worse that it's not being reset at mains frequency due to a problem
with the power-OK circuitry, yes, that's csuprising common too).
3) Check if the processor is doing anything. Is it attempting to read
memeory, for ecample
4) Cehck all data and adreess lines for activity. ALl data lines should
be toggling,. the low-order address ones shoudl be too. It's posible it's
(correctly) running a small routine and thus the high order address lines
might be steady
5) Check to see if it is acessing the firmware ROM
6) If you have a logic analyser, grab the data and address buses and see
what it is acutally trying to execute. Does it make sense? Do jumps cause
the address to change in the right way?
People like us aren't going to stick with a rigid
structure. By high
school, my projects were becoming orthogonal to my teachers' lesson plans.
Yo uand I have a lot in common...
-tony
2:18 p.m.
New subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
> Not everybody will agree with the concept of
"buy crappy tools, so that
On Mon, 25 Jun 2012, Tony Duell wrote:
My ears are burning :-)
I didn't think that I needed to spell it "ARD"
However, there is a case to be made, I think, for
buying the few tools
you need -- and getting high quality ones -- rather than buying a large
set of cheap tools.
FOr example, you mentioned taps. I tend to buy only the sizes I need, anf
get good ones, rathen than buyign one of the cheap imported srts with
plenty of sizes I don;'t need and made from 'steel' that appears to
actually be cheese...
In my case, there were too many situations where slightly obscure sizes
were needed (foreign cars), so my approach was a complete set of crap PLUS
good quality for all the ones used regularly. 'Course it DID get me an
early start on how to remove damaged fasteners! :-( "Easy-out"s got
upgraded to better REAL early on.
1) Check the power supplies. Cheak the voltages nad
check them for
ripply. Power supply problems are suprisingly common, and no computer
works porperly if it's not powered properly
2) Check the processor clock signal.
I'm proud to say that I at least mentioned the first two explicitly
People like us
aren't going to stick with a rigid structure. By high
school, my projects were becoming orthogonal to my teachers' lesson plans.
You
and I have a lot in common...
26 Jun
26 Jun
12:49 p.m.
New subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
However, there
is a case to be made, I think, for buying the few tools
you need -- and getting high quality ones -- rather than buying a large
set of cheap tools.
FOr example, you mentioned taps. I tend to buy only the sizes I need, anf
get good ones, rathen than buyign one of the cheap imported srts with
plenty of sizes I don;'t need and made from 'steel' that appears to
actually be cheese...
In my case, there were too many situations where slightly obscure sizes
were needed (foreign cars), so my approach was a complete set of crap PLUS good quality for all the ones used regularly.
'Course it DID get me an
What I did was to buy a small, good quality, set of the tools I knew I'd
need. And then buy special extras as needed. Nut just the ones I need.
For example, when I was repairing the steering rack on my father's car
last year I needed a crowfoot wrench. Those things are not easy to find,
and good ones are expensive (I think about \pounds 50.00 _each_. So I
measured the size I needed and bought jsut that one.
I the same way, for most comptuer repairs I use nutdrivers to turn hex
nuts and bolts. But when working on the HP9800 machines, you need an
11/32" open-ended spanner to get the rear panel (carries the mains
transofrmer, etc) out. That's not a common size here. I jsut bought that
one spanner.
[...]
People like us aren't going to stick with a rigid
structure. By high
school, my projects were becoming orthogonal to my teachers' lesson plans.
You
and I have a lot in common... was teaching programming, I learned that with SOME
students, the best
thing that I could do was point a direction and get out of the way.
A couple of teachers foudn that to be a good idea with me. Give me access
to the aparatus and let me think up experiments.
-tony
25 Jun
25 Jun
12:20 p.m.
New subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
Nor mine. For that matter, Tony won't like
my answers, either :-)
Maybe NOBODY will like the suggestions that I'm making off the top of
my head, . . .
Step ONE:
The first tool for you to buy is a DISPOSABLE multimeter.
You WILL buy a better one. LATER. [...]
STEP TWO:
Buy a cheap soldering iron, and some 60/40 rosin core lead solder.
($5) You WILL buy a better one LATER. [...]
STEP THREE:
STEP FOUR:
[...]
STEP TEN:
Fix the computers.
Actually, I like them. I like them all. Indeed. By the time you get to step ten, you no
longer need the list.
But, as someone is supposed to have said of music, you can't safely
break rules unless you understand them thoroughly.
It reminds me of soemthing I have said about 'The Art of Electronics'. I
don;t agree with everything in that book. But the explanaitoins are clear
and the make you think. By the time you realise that, no, you'd do it
differnetly, you've learnt a lot of electronics. And surely that's the point.
A good book, IMHO is not one that you agree with. It's noe that makes you
think why you might disagree with the authro. Those thoguths areh the
educational bit.
-tony
3:15 p.m.
New subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
On 6/25/2012 1:20 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
A good book, IMHO is not one that you agree with.
It's noe that makes you
think why you might disagree with the authro. Those thoguths areh the
educational bit.
I agreed so much with the authors with the second edition, I threw out
the book.
-tony
The problem with beginners book is that they thing the beginner is *Stupid*.
I want them *simple*, that deal with the real world. I am using a FW bridge,
what is the parameters again for output voltage. Ahh see page 45. table #2.
Ben.
26 Jun
26 Jun
1:26 p.m.
New subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
The problem with beginners book is that they thing the
beginner is *Stupid*.
It is a common mistake to confuse ignroance with stupidity.
TO be, 'stupidity' really means the inability to reason. Ignorance means
not knowing soemthing. For example, I am (very) ignorant on medical
matters, but if a docotr says to me that the food passes through here,
it's digested by enzymes here, etc, then I can follow it. Ignoranat, but
not IMHO stupid.
Same with computer repair. There's a big diffence between not being able
to reason at all, and not knowing any electronics.
I want them *simple*, that deal with the real world. I
am using a FW bridge,
what is the parameters again for output voltage. Ahh see page 45. table #2.
It depenmds on the filter circuit :-). Seriously. It;s roughly the peak
votlage fro a capacitor input filter, the mean of the absolute value of
the waveform for a choke input filter. The Radiotron Designers Handbook
is quite good for thigns like this.
But yes, I see what you mean. Hwoever, I'd prefer a book that explaiend
_why_ the voltages are what they are. That way, if you get a cirucit
that's not in the book you know how to woek it out.
-tony
25 Jun
25 Jun
12:14 p.m.
New subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
On Sun, 24 Jun 2012, Tony Duell wrote:
Since you posted them publically, I think it is reasonable for me to
reply to them, whether yyou like it or not :-). More seriously, different
people ahve differnet views on this and only the OP can decide what will
work _for him_. Sevearl of us here have been doing repairs for more years
than we care to rememebr, and we all have different views on what is
important or not (for example, some people here use a 'socpe all the
time, I only use one rarely, prefering other instruments. It's a personal
thing, if it works for you, then do it that way).
OK, but be warned you might not like my answers
:-).
Nor mine. For that matter, Tony won't like my answers, either :-) Maybe NOBODY will like the suggestions that I'm
making off the top of my
head, . . .
Step ONE:
The first tool for you to buy is a DISPOSABLE multimeter.
Hmm... I am not convicned...
If you asre not careful, buying poor-quality tools and test gear will
cause problems. You might get disheartened by this and decide you will
neve be able to do troubleshooting/repair. It can be a lot better to have
a few good-wualtiy units than a lot of poor ones.
As an aside, I know of several people who were put off photography
becuase thye were given a cheap camera (always a Kodak...) as a child.
The results were poor, they didn't see the point in paying for film and
processing. Later one, when they got a better camera -- not necessarily
an expensive one -- they found how much fun it could be.
Getting back to multimetets. An experienced person might know how a cheap
meter is goign to misbehave and will be able interpret the readings. A
beginner cannot. You will get readings that seem to make no sense, and
will spend consdierable time looking for faults that aren't really there.
And son't get me started on the confusion a cheap sotrage 'scope can cause...
You WILL buy a better one. LATER. When you have a
clue what it is and
can do, have learned what can damage it, and have learned what aspects of
A good meater is alomst impossible to damage....
the cheap one are intolerable. YES, there are dome
aspects of that cheap
one that are HORRIBLE! THIS one is only for learning about
multimeters.
Go to Harbor Freight Tools or online at harborfreight.com
The list price is $9.95 , but they are often on sale in their retail
stores for $3.99, $2.99, or free with a coupon!
#98025
#92020 or
#69096
Take apart one of their $1 or free with coupon flashlights.
How many things can you measure of it?
What happens if you use the wrong scale, or get it backwards?
measure everything else within reach!
Keep YOURSELF clear of everything! Killing yourself while measuring a
mains outlet could set you back!
And that is soemthing else to be careful about. A friend of mine was
nearely killed by a cheap mete. He measured the voltage of a maisn
socket, it showed 240V or so, so the meter was working/ He flipped the
breaker for what he thought was the right circuit, then measured the
voltage again. 0 or so. So he thought he had isoalted the circuit and
started to remove the socket. Alas the meter had taken that momemnt to
fail (range swithc trouble I think) and he's flipped the wrong breaker.
Result : He got the mains across him. Second result, he bought a good meter.
WHEN you blow up the meter, go get another one, and remember what you did,
so that you won't ever do THAT again.
NOW, for the big moment, . . .
measure all of the voltages of the C64 power supply! (a likely cause of
the problems, anyway!) Look up what each voltage is supposed to be, and
decide whether they are close enough.
You are skipping over something vert important here. Multimeters, and
voltmeters in genral, have 2 leads. The poiunt is that it makes no real
sense ot say 'the votlage here is 5V'. What you mean is 'the voltage here
is 5V _with respect to this point which I am calling ground'. Knowing
what point to take as the common 'ground' is often not obvious when you
are startign out.
IIRC The C64 power supply has 2 outputs. One is5V DC, regualted inside
the PSU. The other is 9V AC, not regualted. The 2 are not connecvted to
each other inside the supply (The 9V AC supply is used ot produce other
voaltages inside the C64, and those _are_ then referenced to the came
ground as the 5V supply. But not with the PSU on its own, not connected
to the C64). So you need to measure the DC votlage between the pins
called '5V' and 'ground' and the AC voltage betwee nthe 2 pins alled
'9V AC'
[...]
STEP TWO:
Buy a cheap soldering iron, and some 60/40 rosin core lead solder. ($5)
You WILL buy a better one LATER. In fact, you will NEVER use this POS
one on ANYTHING that you want to keep!
Take a stack of SCRAP boards, that are irreparable and useless (you said
that your friend had destroyed some, . . . )
Unsolder a large resistor from one of the boards. Unsolder another one.
Solder them back on. remove EVERY component from the board. Put every
Hmmm... Even if I say so myself, I consider that I am reasonably good and
PCB rework. And I have great difficulties using a cheap soldering iron.
A freind at HPCC wented to learn some basic electroncis. I had some
'spare' simple kits to solder up, I suggested he bought some tools and
had a go. Als he didn't want to pay for a sodlering station... He had
great ddifficult soldering the new components ot a new, simple, PCB. In
the end I asked him to bring everything to a meeting so I could see what
he was doing wrong. Nothing obvioiusm so I had a go. I had problems too.
So I pulled my Weller TCP out of my bag and tried that. Dead easy. I let
him try it. He had no problems pouplating the complete PCB.
Cheap tools really can make things difficult, I know that good tools are
expesnive, and that if you are starting out you ight not want to lay out
a lot of money on tools you might not want. But eqally, you have enough
real problems when you are learning without creating more due to
inadequate tools.
one back on. How many did you get backwards? How
many did you destroy?
Once you've soldered and desoldered everything on a few boards, Start
planning to buy a REAL ("temperature controlled") soldering iron. (try
flea markets, eBay, etc.) You might find the POS one to be useful for
rewiring lamps and toasters, etc., but once you've used a REAL soldering
I am not convinced they are even useful for that. You find high melting
point sodler in such places (for obvious reaosns)
iron, you'll never want to touch the POS again.
STEP THREE:
Get a better screwdriver for taking apart your computers. A cheap one
with 1/4" bits will do until you understand WHY you need a better one.
My list of simple hand tools for ocmputer repair is quite long, and to be
fair you problaby don't need all of them. But I find I need screwdrives
from 1mm to about 8mm, Phillips and Pozidriv ones too.
And Allen hex
tools, torx drivers, nutdrivers, etc. In some cases it does depend on
what you are sorkign on. If you stick to C64s, you will not need Bristol
Spline tools. If yoyu work on Flexowriters, or even IBM 5155s, you do.
Get some decent pliers and cutters. Over here expect to pay \poudns 30.00
for each (!). You will use them a lot .
Another case where cehap tools make life dififuclt are tweezers. Cheap
tweezers are made from spring steel. Expensive ones are stainless steelm
and not magnetic. You might wonder if it's worth paying for the expensive
ones (about 10 times the price of cheap ones). Well, if tyuo've ever
tried to put a small screw or simiar into a mechanism and hand other
parts jump out of plate ot the end of the tweezers, you'll know why...
STEP FOUR:
Learn resistor color codes. Do you know what an ohm is? farad?
"If your car headlight draws 10 amps, how many watts is it?"
Read a few basic electronics books. Used textbooks from the local
community college, perhaps? Maybe even TAKE some of those classes!
"Art of Electronics" by Horowitz is GREAT, but it costs money.
Got relatives who XMAS shop?
STEP FIVE:
Buy some kits and assemble them. Now get them to WORK.
Kits are great at teaching you to solder, to identify compoennts and to
put things together. They are less good at teaching electronics. I was
amazed (when i had to sort out a so-claled 'educational electronic kit'
sold over here that it didn't even include a schematic, or a block
diagram or the theory of oepration. Of course _I traced out the scehamtic
in a few minutes, but...)
SInce youy need ot learn to solder and handle the tools kits are
certianly sueful. But it's worth realsing they don't teach you everything.
[..]
STEP SEVEN:
Get all of the technical documents for all of the machines that you want
to work on, or are even just curious about
Easier said than done in soem cases :-). Although there are plenty of
technical manuals and scheamtic for the C64.
[...]
If you got this far, you've almost certainly
abandoned these "silly
steps", and have taken off on more interesting projects and tangents.
I think one thing that Fred and I agree on (fro reading this ) is that
tyhere is no short-cut to being able to repair computers. You _do_ need
to learn to use tools,. you do need ot learn how things should work, you
do need to learn basic (and more) electronics.
Sure there are 'stock fault lists'. Thigns that tell you that if it
starts up with this sort of image on the monitor then you need ot change
that chip. 99% of the tiem they're rignt./ 1% of the time they are not.
And at that point, if all you have is the stock fault lsit, you are stuck.
If you are runnign a repair shop and have hundreds othe same model coming
in, then such lists are valuable. You cna send 99% of them back out the
door quickiy, leaving 1% hat reauires an experienced person to look at.
But if you are doing it for yourself, if you want ot finx that machine no
matter what, then you have ot learn the 'real' methods of fault
diagnosis.
-tony
2:25 p.m.
New subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
> Nor mine. For that matter, Tony won't like
my answers, either :-)
On Mon, 25 Jun 2012, Tony Duell wrote:
Since you posted them publically, I think it is
reasonable for me to
reply to them, whether you like it or not :-).
I like it very much!
I was thinking about you with every sentence of my post. I was hoping
that you would join in, fully knowing that we would not agree on the
"cheap tools" aspect.
And that is soemthing else to be careful about. A
friend of mine was
nearely killed by a cheap mete. He measured the voltage of a maisn
socket, it showed 240V or so, so the meter was working/ He flipped the
breaker for what he thought was the right circuit, then measured the
voltage again. 0 or so. So he thought he had isoalted the circuit and
started to remove the socket. Alas the meter had taken that momemnt to
fail (range swithc trouble I think) and he's flipped the wrong breaker.
Result : He got the mains across him. Second result, he bought a good meter.
A few days ago, a friend was repairing a hot-tub (spa) controller. He was
pretty sure that he had 220V, but the cheap meter said 0. Then the probe
fell off of the end of its wire - so THAT'S why it read 0. A meter, good
or bad, can not be a substitute for common sense.
You are skipping over something vert important here.
More than a few things! I only intended it as a framework, to be expanded
into a more thorough introduction to how to get started.
Multimeters, and
voltmeters in genral, have 2 leads. The poiunt is that it makes no real
sense ot say 'the votlage here is 5V'. What you mean is 'the voltage here
is 5V _with respect to this point which I am calling ground'. Knowing
what point to take as the common 'ground' is often not obvious when you
are startign out.
I did mention that (in the next step), but these instructions need a LOT
more detail!
My list of simple hand tools for ocmputer repair is
quite long, and to be
fair you problaby don't need all of them. But I find I need screwdrives
from 1mm to about 8mm, Phillips and Pozidriv ones too. And Allen hex
tools, torx drivers, nutdrivers, etc. In some cases it does depend on
what you are sorkign on. If you stick to C64s, you will not need Bristol
Spline tools. If yoyu work on Flexowriters, or even IBM 5155s, you do.
I think that a set of screwdriver bits is a good start there. There are
better screwdrivers than the bit holders, BUT, that could encourage using
the wrong size when a simple bit change (with a larger selection) could
have been done. My father understood the difference between "plain" and
"phillips" screwdrivers, but he never did grasp why there was more than
one size of either! I was about 10 when I started collecting my own hand
tools. My current tools don't resemble my early ones.
Get some decent pliers and cutters. Over here expect
to pay \poudns 30.00
for each (!). You will use them a lot .
Kits are great at teaching you to solder, to identify
compoennts and to
put things together. They are less good at teaching electronics. I was
One reason why I hesitated about making specific recommendations!
STEP SEVEN:
Get all of the technical documents for all of the machines that you want
to work on, or are even just curious about
Easier said than done in soem cases
:-). I think one thing that Fred and I agree on (from
reading this ) is that
there is no short-cut to being able to repair computers. You _do_ need
to learn to use tools,. you do need ot learn how things should work, you
do need to learn basic (and more) electronics.
Sure there are 'stock fault lists'. Thigns
that tell you that if it
starts up with this sort of image on the monitor then you need ot change
that chip. 99% of the time they're rignt./ 1% of the time they are not.
And at that point, if all you have is the stock fault lsit, you are stuck.
They're great for "probabilistically" suggesting where to START looking,
but one still needs to master the tool usage, AND understand enough theory
to be able to confirm the suggested diagnosis.
But if you are doing it for yourself, if you want ot
fix that machine no
matter what, then you have to learn the 'real' methods of fault
diagnosis.
There is no substitute for learning logical processes
26 Jun
26 Jun
1:10 p.m.
New subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
> Nor mine. For that matter, Tony won't
like my answers, either :-)
On Mon, 25 Jun 2012, Tony Duell wrote:
Since you posted them publically, I think it is
reasonable for me to
reply to them, whether you like it or not :-).
I like it very much!
I was thinking about you with every sentence of my post. I was hoping
that you would join in, fully knowing that we would not agree on the
"cheap tools" aspect. A few days ago, a friend was repairing a hot-tub (spa)
controller. He was
pretty sure that he had 220V, but the cheap meter said 0. Then the probe
The correct procedure, I beleive, is to measurew a known live point, then
to measure the point you want to work on, then to measuer the live point
again. Only if all 3 readings are as you expect do you start work. Even
that's not infallable, but it's better than assuming the meter is OK.
A firend of mine has a voltmeter for checking 11kV (andn maybe 33kV)
overhead lines. In the carrying case is a little EHT PSU (perahps about
10kV), powered by batteries. The proedure is to measrue that, then the
line, then the test PSU again.
fell off of the end of its wire - so THAT'S why it
read 0. A meter, good
or bad, can not be a substitute for common sense.
That is very true...
You are skipping over something vert important
here.
More than a few things! I only intended it as a framework, to be expanded
into a more thorough introduction to how to get started. Multimeters, and
voltmeters in genral, have 2 leads. The poiunt is that it makes no real
sense ot say 'the votlage here is 5V'. What you mean is 'the voltage here
is 5V _with respect to this point which I am calling ground'. Knowing
what point to take as the common 'ground' is often not obvious when you
are startign out.
I did mention that (in the next step), but these instructions need a LOT
more detail! My list of simple hand tools for ocmputer repair
is quite long, and to be
fair you problaby don't need all of them. But I find I need screwdrives
from 1mm to about 8mm, Phillips and Pozidriv ones too. And Allen hex
tools, torx drivers, nutdrivers, etc. In some cases it does depend on
what you are sorkign on. If you stick to C64s, you will not need Bristol
Spline tools. If yoyu work on Flexowriters, or even IBM 5155s, you do.
I think that a set of screwdriver bits is a good start there. There are
better screwdrivers than the bit holders, BUT, that could encourage using
the wrong size when a simple bit change (with a larger selection) could
have been done. My father understood the difference between "plain" and
STEP SEVEN:
Get all of the technical documents for all of the machines that you want
to work on, or are even just curious about
Easier said than done in soem cases
:-). I think one thing that Fred and I agree on (from
reading this ) is that
there is no short-cut to being able to repair computers. You _do_ need
to learn to use tools,. you do need ot learn how things should work, you
do need to learn basic (and more) electronics.
Sure there are 'stock fault lists'.
Thigns that tell you that if it
starts up with this sort of image on the monitor then you need ot change
that chip. 99% of the time they're rignt./ 1% of the time they are not.
And at that point, if all you have is the stock fault lsit, you are stuck.
They're great for "probabilistically" suggesting where to START looking,
but one still needs to master the tool usage, AND
understand enough theory
to be able to confirm the suggested diagnosis.
Sure. AS I said in my very first mesage, in all fault repair (this
doesn't just apply to computers, or even to electroics, IMHO it also
applies to things like medicine), there are 2 distinct stages :
1) Finding the fualt -- how to make and interpret measurements, etc
2) Putting it right -- using the tools to replace the faulty component.
You will ahve to learn how to do both.
But if you are doing it for yourself, if you want
ot fix that machine no
matter what, then you have to learn the 'real' methods of fault
diagnosis.
There is no substitute for learning logical processes
25 Jun
25 Jun
6 p.m.
New subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
Buy some kits
and assemble them. Now get them to WORK.
Kits are great at teaching you to solder,
to identify compoennts and
to put things together. They are less good at teaching electronics.
26 Jun
26 Jun
1:43 p.m.
New subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
Buy some
kits and assemble them. Now get them to WORK.
Kits are great at teaching you to
solder, to identify compoennts and
to put things together. They are less good at teaching electronics. 
25 Jun
25 Jun
9:02 a.m.
On 06/24/2012 04:41 AM, Jeffrey Brace wrote:
I started with my original C64 which I bought in 1987.
I had left it in
a garage for two years and then tried to use it and it didn't work.
In what way does it not work?
First I was told that I should clean my C64 with
regular dish detergent
and a hair dryer. I was told that this would solve many problems. Sounds
unsafe, but I guess I will try it.
It can cause many problems too! What's wrong with the machine that you've
been told might be solved by cleaning it?
Then I was told that I should buy
another C64 since it isn't worth repairing them, since they are so
plentifully available and cheap.
Not around here they aren't. It depends where you live...
Then I need to replace chips that are bad, so I need
to know how to
solder and de-solder. Which kind of device to get ? There are different
wattages and if you do it wrong then you burn up your boards (as a
friend of mine did with more soldering experience did). Do I get a
combination desolder sucker ? Or a little squeeze one ? Or a push and
suck stick ? Do I get a soldering station ? A braider ?
Much of that is down to experience and personal preference, I'm afraid.
I've never got on well with the desolder braid. Solder suckers (the type
you refer to as 'push and suck stick') work well in my opinion, as long as
it's a good quality one.
For irons I've got a smaller one (either 12W or 15W, can't remember) which
I use with fine tips and a 25W one for larger jobs (which is a little
under-powered for some tasks)
cheers
Jules
9:49 a.m.
On 25 Jun 2012 at 11:02, Jules Richardson wrote:
On 06/24/2012 04:41 AM, Jeffrey Brace wrote:
One of the more common failures of a C64 is the power supply; that's
where I'd start.
The innards of those things, however, are potted--I don't know of
anyone who's been able to get the components out of the potting
compound.
There are workarounds that involve constructing replacements. Here's
a fairly elegant one that preserves the look:
http://wejp.k.vu/broken_stuff/c64_power_supply_repair
It might also be a good "first project".
--Chuck
I started with my original C64 which I bought in
1987. I had left it
in a garage for two years and then tried to use it and it didn't
work.
In what way does it not work?
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