16 Jun
2007
16 Jun
'07
10:37 a.m.
I have a working Sage IV and would be glad to help
with a simulation project
by providing boot prom dumps, docs, etc.
Thanks! Adding dumps of the programmable parts from the machines that you have
to your web site would seem to be a good thing independent of any simulation efforts.
17 Jun
17 Jun
2:10 p.m.
Thanks! Adding dumps of the programmable parts from
the machines that you
have
to your web site would seem to be a good thing independent of any
simulation efforts.
In arcade machines, this is already done in MAME. But it would be great
for old computers and any kind of gear.
18 Jun
18 Jun
12:51 a.m.
New subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K?
On Sun, 2007-06-17 at 18:10 -0300, Alexandre Souza wrote:
In arcade machines, this is already done in MAME.
But it would be great
for old computers and any kind of gear.
Did any of the CPUs we know and love, like the PDP-11 CPUs, find their
way into commercial games machines? I know a lot of the Atari vector
stuff had maths boxes based on AMD bit-slice parts.
It seems like the J11 processor would have been a good fit for some of
the more advanced games.
Gordon
5:15 a.m.
New subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K?
Did any of the CPUs we know and love, like the PDP-11
CPUs, find their
way into commercial games machines? I know a lot of the Atari vector
stuff had maths boxes based on AMD bit-slice parts.
You can take a look on MAME page that has some listings, you can find
also any kind of strange CPU in arcade machines. Very crazy stuff! :o)
5:29 a.m.
New subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K?
On 6/18/07, Gordon JC Pearce <gordon at gjcp.net> wrote:
On Sun, 2007-06-17 at 18:10 -0300, Alexandre Souza
wrote:
I would be interested to learn if this ever happened. As far as I can
tell (hardly authoritative), the arcade industry bypassed the T-11,
probably primarily due to cost and availability. The Z-80, 6502, and
6809 were favorites in the 8-bit realm, but when they needed something
with a bit more horsepower, I don't know what was common besides the
68000 (as used in "Xenophobe", among others).
In arcade machines, this is already done in
MAME. But it would be great
for old computers and any kind of gear.
Did any of the CPUs we know and love, like the PDP-11 CPUs, find their
way into commercial games machines? I know a lot of the Atari vector
stuff had maths boxes based on AMD bit-slice parts.
Yep. I helped a friend fix his Battlezone with a couple of 2901s I
desoldered from a dead KA730 board.
It seems like the J11 processor would have been a good
fit for some of
the more advanced games.
Perhaps, but it wasn't a cheap chip. 20 years ago, I could afford
used F-11-based gear (11/23, 11/24) because it ran around $300 for a
barebones or lightly-loaded system (disks and controller extra, etc).
I couldn't touch J-11 stuff because it was still in use commercially.
In the mid-1980s, the 68000, then 68020 was just too cheap compared to
the J-11, I'd estimate.
-ethan
5:51 a.m.
New subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K?
In arcade
machines, this is already done in MAME. But it would be great
for old computers and any kind of gear.
Did any of the CPUs we know and love, like the PDP-11 CPUs, find their
way into commercial games machines? I know a lot of the Atari vector
stuff had maths boxes based on AMD bit-slice parts.
It seems like the J11 processor would have been a good fit for some of
the more advanced games.
6:13 a.m.
New subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K?
On 6/18/07, Cameron Kaiser <spectre at floodgap.com> wrote:
J11, no, but I know some of the games like APB and
Paperboy used a T11.
Interesting. I'll have to track down the schematics to Paperboy. My
brother was quite good at that one, but I never played it much.
It'll be interesting to compare that CPU board design to some of the
other stuff of the era to see if they came up with any clever tricks.
-ethan
6:19 a.m.
New subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K?
J11, no, but I
know some of the games like APB and Paperboy used a T11.
Interesting. I'll have to track down the schematics to Paperboy. My
brother was quite good at that one, but I never played it much.
It'll be interesting to compare that CPU board design to some of the
other stuff of the era to see if they came up with any clever tricks.
6:35 a.m.
New subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K?
On 6/18/07, Cameron Kaiser <spectre at floodgap.com> wrote:
I was always puzzled about the choice (once I knew
what a T11 was). Other
than that, it's a 6502 and POKEY and "other stuff" on boards of that
generation, which you would expect from Atari, but not a T11.
Hmm... Atari commonly used the 6502 as the "main" processor, then
other devices for things like the "math box" (2901-based 16-bit vector
engine) for Battlezone, Star Wars, etc., so what's the T-11 doing in
Paperboy?
Memory is coming back about other games -- 720 and
Super Sprint were others.
This was before they went to the 68K for Xybots, Gauntlet, etc.
That's more than I would have guessed. Sounds like there was a window
in which the T-11 made more sense than the 68000, but that it was a
short window.
-ethan
7:41 a.m.
New subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K?
I was always
puzzled about the choice (once I knew what a T11 was). Other
than that, it's a 6502 and POKEY and "other stuff" on boards of that
generation, which you would expect from Atari, but not a T11.
Hmm... Atari commonly used the 6502 as the "main" processor, then
other devices for things like the "math box" (2901-based 16-bit vector
engine) for Battlezone, Star Wars, etc., so what's the T-11 doing in
Paperboy? Memory is
coming back about other games -- 720 and Super Sprint were others.
This was before they went to the 68K for Xybots, Gauntlet, etc.
That's more than I would have guessed. Sounds like there was a window
in which the T-11 made more sense than the 68000, but that it was a
short window.
7:53 a.m.
New subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K?
I was always puzzled about the choice (once I knew
what a T11 was). Other
than that, it's a 6502 and POKEY and "other stuff" on boards of that
generation, which you would expect from Atari, but not a T11.
Hmm... Atari commonly used the 6502 as the "main" processor, then
other devices for things like the "math box" (2901-based 16-bit vector
engine) for Battlezone, Star Wars, etc., so what's the T-11 doing in
Paperboy? 
12:30 p.m.
New subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K?
Cameron Kaiser wrote:
As I recall, they (Atari) would not let us use anything more than a 8mhz
68000. The 10mhz was a stretch. The last game I worked on had 2x
68000's and that was a stretch (it had neat fake stereo sound, however
:-) But it never got out of test, sadly. It was fun to play.
The GCC games all had 68000's (and I could be wrong about the speed;
it was a long time ago).
The Vid kids games all were 6800 as I recall (defender, etc...) I bet
they were wizards at bumming cycles out of code for that cpu (just as
the gcc consumer guys were at the 6502)
All the pacman games I saw were z-80 based; including Ms. Pacman.
-brad
That's more than I would have guessed. Sounds like there was a window
in which the T-11 made more sense than the 68000, but that it was a
short window.
Relatively short, I would say no more than two or three years. Still, a
number of well-known titles used it. I don't know of any other manufacturer
that used any PDP-11 architecture in any other game other than Atari Games,
however.
9:03 a.m.
New subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K?
That's more than I would have guessed. Sounds
like there was a window
in which the T-11 made more sense than the 68000, but that it was a
short window.
From http://www.system16.com/hardware.php?id=769
PCB : A042571 ATARI SYSTEM II CPU
Main CPU : T11 @ 10 MHz (DEC 21-17311-02)
Sound CPU : M6502 2.2 MHz
Sound chip : YM2151 @ 3.579545 MHz, 2 x Pokey @ 1.789772 MHz, TMS5220 @ 625
KHz
Oscillators : 14.31818 & 20.000
VLSI : 645 V D727B, VGC7205-0672, 137304-2002 [40pin DIP, row 7]
Other Chips : 8645 137430-001 [40pin DIP, row 6/row 7]
Protection Chip : Slapstic 137412-1** F.A.Q.
Video resoution : 512 x 384
Interesting that there were other games beyond that: 720, Accelerator,
APB, Championship Sprint, Paperboy and Super Sprint. Never stopped to know
what a T11 was!
6397
days inactive
6399
days old
12 comments
6 participants
participants (6)
-
aek＠bitsavers.org -
alexandre-listas＠e-secure.com.br -
brad＠heeltoe.com -
ethan.dicks＠gmail.com -
gordon＠gjcp.net -
spectre＠floodgap.com