PDP-10 programming [was RE: Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine)]
29 Feb
2016
29 Feb
'16
5:07 p.m.
From: David Griffith
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 4:05 PM
One of my ongoing wish projects is to learn to program
a pdp-10 so I can
port Frotz to it.
The canonical textbook is Ralph Gorin's _Introduction to DECSYSTEM-20
Assembly Language Programming_ (Digital Press, 1981). Lots of examples,
well thought out presentation.
It's a shame that Ralph's book has become so rare. (Seriously, who
does the seller asking $1,441.25 for a copy think he's talking to???)
Probably remaindered in the 1990s at any library that had a copy.
If you were near Seattle, I'd say make an appointment and I'd give you
an afternoon's worth of overview.
Rich
Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computer Museum
2245 1st Avenue S
Seattle, WA 98134
mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org
http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/
29 Feb
29 Feb
7:42 p.m.
On Feb 29, 2016 5:07 PM, "Rich Alderson" <RichA at
livingcomputermuseum.org>
wrote:
From: David Griffith
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 4:05 PM
FWIW Amazon lists used copies of ISBN-13 978-0932376121 around $100. I
bought a used copy a couple of years ago that turned out to be an
ex-library copy. Don't think I paid too much at the time. Still haven't
gotten around to looking at it much.
One of my ongoing wish projects is to learn to
program a pdp-10 so I can
port Frotz to it.
The canonical textbook is Ralph Gorin's _Introduction to DECSYSTEM-20
Assembly Language Programming_ (Digital Press, 1981). Lots of examples,
well thought out presentation.
It's a shame that Ralph's book has become so rare. (Seriously, who
does the seller asking $1,441.25 for a copy think he's talking to???)
Probably remaindered in the 1990s at any library that had a copy.
11:32 p.m.
There is a copy on archive.org:
https://archive.org/details/introductiontode00step
Regards, Mark.
On 01/03/16 01:07, Rich Alderson wrote:
From: David Griffith
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 4:05 PM
One of my ongoing wish projects is to learn to
program a pdp-10 so I can
port Frotz to it.
The canonical textbook is Ralph Gorin's _Introduction to
DECSYSTEM-20
Assembly Language Programming_ (Digital Press, 1981). Lots of examples,
well thought out presentation.
It's a shame that Ralph's book has become so rare. (Seriously, who
does the seller asking $1,441.25 for a copy think he's talking to???)
Probably remaindered in the 1990s at any library that had a copy.
If you were near Seattle, I'd say make an appointment and I'd give you
an afternoon's worth of overview.
Rich
Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computer Museum
2245 1st Avenue S
Seattle, WA 98134
mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org
http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ 
1 Mar
1 Mar
5:02 a.m.
On 2/29/2016 8:07 PM, Rich Alderson wrote:
From: David Griffith
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 4:05 PM
There is a similar document online at Columbia with parts written by Ralph Gorin
<http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/ftp/dec20/assembler-guide.txt>
One of my ongoing wish projects is to learn to
program a pdp-10 so I can
port Frotz to it.
The canonical textbook is Ralph Gorin's _Introduction to DECSYSTEM-20
Assembly Language Programming_ (Digital Press, 1981). Lots of examples,
well thought out presentation.
Rich
John H. Reinhardt
5:12 a.m.
On Tue, Mar 01, 2016 at 08:02:47AM -0500, John H. Reinhardt wrote:
On 2/29/2016 8:07 PM, Rich Alderson wrote:
I think this is the same file, but in HTML-formatted with one page per
chapter:
http://pdp10.nocrew.org/docs/instruction-set/pdp-10.html
/P
From: David Griffith
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 4:05 PM
There is a similar document online at Columbia with parts written by Ralph Gorin
<http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/ftp/dec20/assembler-guide.txt> One of my ongoing wish projects is to learn to
program a pdp-10 so I can
port Frotz to it.
The canonical textbook is Ralph Gorin's _Introduction to DECSYSTEM-20
Assembly Language Programming_ (Digital Press, 1981). Lots of examples,
well thought out presentation.
4:28 p.m.
From: Glen Slick
Sent: Monday, February 29, 2016 7:43 PM
On Feb 29, 2016 5:07 PM, "Rich Alderson"
<RichA at livingcomputermuseum.org>
wrote:
> From: David Griffith
> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 4:05 PM
>> One of my ongoing wish projects is to learn to
program a pdp-10 so I can
>> port Frotz to it.
> The canonical textbook is Ralph Gorin's
_Introduction to DECSYSTEM-20
> Assembly Language Programming_ (Digital Press, 1981). Lots of examples,
> well thought out presentation.
> It's a shame that Ralph's book has become
so rare. (Seriously, who
> does the seller asking $1,441.25 for a copy think he's talking to???)
> Probably remaindered in the 1990s at any library that had a copy.
FWIW Amazon lists used copies of ISBN-13
978-0932376121 around $100. I
bought a used copy a couple of years ago that turned out to be an
ex-library copy. Don't think I paid too much at the time. Still haven't
gotten around to looking at it much.
For most hobbyists, even $100 is too much. I was simply astounded at the
chutzpah of the seller--right there on the Amazon list--who was asking
nearly $1500 for a copy.
From: Mark Wickens
Sent: Monday, February 29, 2016 11:32 PM
There is a copy on archive.org:
https://archive.org/details/introductiontode00step
Well, I was going to point that out to my friend Ralph, but I see that
it is a different book with the same title, by one Stephen Longo, which
has been stolen.
From: John H. Reinhardt
Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2016 5:03 AM
There is a similar document online at Columbia with
parts written by
Ralph Gorin
<http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/ftp/dec20/assembler-guide.txt>
Rather, adapted from Ralph's early course notes (he was teaching the
class at Stanford for a few years before the book was published) by
Frank da Cruz and Chris Ryland. I know that Frank and Ralph were
friendly, so I'm not surprised that Ralph shared his notes.
From: Pontus Pihlgren
Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2016 5:13 AM
On Tue, Mar 01, 2016 at 08:02:47AM -0500, John H. Reinhardt wrote:
>
<http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/ftp/dec20/assembler-guide.txt>
I think this is the same file, but in HTML-formatted
with one page per
chapter:
No, that's an HTMLized version of the INFO file that accompanies the
original EMACS (the one written in MIT AI Lab TECO for the PDP-10).
So David, there are alternatives to the Gorin textbook. I simply prefer
it for paedogogical reasons.
Rich
Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computer Museum
2245 1st Avenue S
Seattle, WA 98134
mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org
http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/
4:36 p.m.
It was thus said that the Great Rich Alderson once stated:
For most hobbyists, even $100 is too much. I was simply astounded at the
chutzpah of the seller--right there on the Amazon list--who was asking
nearly $1500 for a copy.
I think that comes from an unchecked computer algorithm, not simple greed.
I think what's happening here is someone (some Amazon third party) offered
the book for, say, $5. Another third party scans Amazon for such books, and
offers it for say, $6, with the hope that you (the potential buyer) will
only see their their offer for $6 and buy from them, at which point they
will buy it for $5 from the original seller, sell it to you for $6 and
pocket the $1 profit. The problem comes when a third third-party seller
sees the offer for $6 and does the same thing as the second one, only now
they're offering it for $7, will pay $6 for it and pocket $1 profit.
Keep repeating that process and you end up with books selling for $1500.
-spc (Who knows? If you keep searching, you might find the original
seller selling it for $5 ... )
5:11 p.m.
On 2016-Mar-01, at 4:36 PM, Sean Conner wrote:
It was thus said that the Great Rich Alderson once
stated:
For example:
http://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/why-did-amazon-charge-23698655-93-fo…
I've come across other articles about this in the past. Don't know the specifics
of the book mentioned by Rich.
For most hobbyists, even $100 is too much. I was simply astounded at the
chutzpah of the seller--right there on the Amazon list--who was asking
nearly $1500 for a copy.
I think that comes from an unchecked computer algorithm, not simple greed.
I think what's happening here is someone (some Amazon third party) offered
the book for, say, $5. Another third party scans Amazon for such books, and
offers it for say, $6, with the hope that you (the potential buyer) will
only see their their offer for $6 and buy from them, at which point they
will buy it for $5 from the original seller, sell it to you for $6 and
pocket the $1 profit. The problem comes when a third third-party seller
sees the offer for $6 and does the same thing as the second one, only now
they're offering it for $7, will pay $6 for it and pocket $1 profit.
Keep repeating that process and you end up with books selling for $1500.
-spc (Who knows? If you keep searching, you might find the original
seller selling it for $5 ... ) 
5:40 p.m.
On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 5:11 PM, Brent Hilpert <hilpert at cs.ubc.ca> wrote:
On 2016-Mar-01, at 4:36 PM, Sean Conner wrote:
greed.
On abebooks.com, the lowest price is right around $100 with shipping. Yes,
this sucks. Yes, this is how capitalism works. :-) I've paid serious
money for books that are relevant to my research that aren't available in
libraries - one of them was no closer than Paris. (I bought it from India
for about $50, and I won't loan it out.)
--
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School <http://ischool.uw.edu>
Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical
Narrative Through a Design Lens
Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal <http://tribunalvoices.org>
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab <http://vsdesign.org>
University of Washington
There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."
It was thus said that the Great Rich Alderson
once stated:
>
> For most hobbyists, even $100 is too much. I was simply astounded at
the
chutzpah
of the seller--right there on the Amazon list--who was asking
nearly $1500 for a copy.
I think that comes from an unchecked computer algorithm, not simple I think what's happening here is someone
(some Amazon third party)
offered
the book for, say, $5. Another third party scans
Amazon for such books,
and
offers it for say, $6, with the hope that you
(the potential buyer) will
only see their their offer for $6 and buy from them, at which point they
will buy it for $5 from the original seller, sell it to you for $6 and
pocket the $1 profit. The problem comes when a third third-party seller
sees the offer for $6 and does the same thing as the second one, only now
they're offering it for $7, will pay $6 for it and pocket $1 profit.
Keep repeating that process and you end up with books selling for $1500.
-spc (Who knows? If you keep searching, you might find the original
seller selling it for $5 ... )
For example:
http://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/why-did-amazon-charge-23698655-93-fo…
I've come across other articles about this in the past. Don't know the
specifics of the book mentioned by Rich.
7:22 p.m.
I loaned Rich my big bag of DECsystem-20 docs, including the Gorin book, from my days as a
systems programmer on a couple of -20s in college. Guess I should have taken a deposit or
some ID ;)
I had some time to kill in SoDo and went to LCM for the first since it opened to the
public. I tried to say 'hi' to Rich and instead got my bag of DEC stuff back.
Didn't really need it back then.
I had been asking Rich about the stuff because I had been trying to get some other docs
back from another museum and they couldn't find them. I just wanted to make sure Rich
knew where my -20 stuff was. Oh well.
I was one of the first outside people to get an account on LCM's Toad, but one day I
found my account was gone, so I have been doing -20 work on SIMH since then.
alan
On Mar 1, 2016, at 17:40, Ian S. King <isking at
uw.edu> wrote:
On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 5:11 PM, Brent Hilpert
<hilpert at cs.ubc.ca> wrote:
greed.
On abebooks.com, the lowest price is
right around $100 with shipping. Yes,
this sucks. Yes, this is how capitalism works. :-) I've paid serious
money for books that are relevant to my research that aren't available in
libraries - one of them was no closer than Paris. (I bought it from India
for about $50, and I won't loan it out.)
--
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School <http://ischool.uw.edu>
Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical
Narrative Through a Design Lens
Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal <http://tribunalvoices.org>
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab <http://vsdesign.org>
University of Washington
There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." On 2016-Mar-01, at 4:36 PM, Sean Conner wrote:
It was thus said that the Great Rich Alderson once stated:
>
> For most hobbyists, even $100 is too much. I was simply astounded at
the
chutzpah
of the seller--right there on the Amazon list--who was asking
nearly $1500 for a copy.
I think that comes from an unchecked computer algorithm, not simple I think what's happening here is someone
(some Amazon third party)
offered
the book for, say, $5. Another third party scans
Amazon for such books,
and
offers it for say, $6, with the hope that you
(the potential buyer) will
only see their their offer for $6 and buy from them, at which point they
will buy it for $5 from the original seller, sell it to you for $6 and
pocket the $1 profit. The problem comes when a third third-party seller
sees the offer for $6 and does the same thing as the second one, only now
they're offering it for $7, will pay $6 for it and pocket $1 profit.
Keep repeating that process and you end up with books selling for $1500.
-spc (Who knows? If you keep searching, you might find the original
seller selling it for $5 ... )
For example:
http://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/why-did-amazon-charge-23698655-93-fo…
I've come across other articles about this in the past. Don't know the
specifics of the book mentioned by Rich.
2 Mar
2 Mar
11:04 a.m.
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Alan Perry
Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2016 7:22 PM
I was one of the first outside people to get an
account on LCM's Toad, but
one day I found my account was gone, so I have been doing -20 work on SIMH
since then.
************************************************************************
toad-2a at Living Computer Museum, TOPS-20 Monitor 7(110131)-1
WELCOME TO LIVING COMPUTER MUSEUM'S TOAD-2 SYSTEM RUNNING TOPS-20!
PLEASE NOTE that closing a terminal window or program DOES NOT log
you off of the system. You must use the LOGOUT or KILL command at
the @ prompt before ending the terminal program to log out.
@finger perry
ALANP Alan Perry ALANP not logged in
Last login Thu 3-May-2012 1:20PM
No new mail, never read
[No plan]
@
************************************************************************
Your account is right where you left it. (OK, a year ago we migrated from
the Toad-1 to a Toad-2 to save wear and tear on the 20 year old SCSI disk,
but no accounts were lost.)
Rich Alderson
Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computer Museum
2245 1st Ave S
Seattle, WA 98134
http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/
1 Mar
1 Mar
5:19 p.m.
New subject: Algorithmic pricing gone critical - Re: PDP-10 programming [was RE: Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine)]
On 2016-03-01 7:36 PM, Sean Conner wrote:
It was thus said that the Great Rich Alderson once
stated:
Or more:
http://www.michaeleisen.org/blog/?p=358
etc.
Remind me why HFT is a great idea...
For most hobbyists, even $100 is too much. I was simply astounded at the
chutzpah of the seller--right there on the Amazon list--who was asking
nearly $1500 for a copy.
I think that comes from an unchecked computer algorithm, not simple greed.
I think what's happening here is someone (some Amazon third party) offered
the book for, say, $5. Another third party scans Amazon for such books, and
offers it for say, $6, with the hope that you (the potential buyer) will
only see their their offer for $6 and buy from them, at which point they
will buy it for $5 from the original seller, sell it to you for $6 and
pocket the $1 profit. The problem comes when a third third-party seller
sees the offer for $6 and does the same thing as the second one, only now
they're offering it for $7, will pay $6 for it and pocket $1 profit.
Keep repeating that process and you end up with books selling for $1500.
-spc (Who knows? If you keep searching, you might find the original
seller selling it for $5 ... )
7:29 p.m.
New subject: Algorithmic pricing gone critical - Re: PDP-10 programming [was RE: Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine)]
On Mar 1, 2016 8:19 PM, "Toby Thain" <toby at telegraphics.com.au> wrote:
On 2016-03-01 7:36 PM, Sean Conner wrote:
>
> It was thus said that the Great Rich Alderson once stated:
>>
>>
>> For most hobbyists, even $100 is too much. I was simply astounded at
the
>> chutzpah of the seller--right there on the
Amazon list--who was asking
>> nearly $1500 for a copy.
>
>
> I think that comes from an unchecked computer algorithm, not simple
greed.
> I think what's happening here is someone (some
Amazon third party)
offered
> the book for, say, $5. Another third party scans
Amazon for such books,
and
> offers it for say, $6, with the hope that you (the
potential buyer) will
> only see their their offer for $6 and buy from them, at which point they
> will buy it for $5 from the original seller, sell it to you for $6 and
> pocket the $1 profit. The problem comes when a third third-party seller
> sees the offer for $6 and does the same thing as the second one, only now
> they're offering it for $7, will pay $6 for it and pocket $1 profit.
>
> Keep repeating that process and you end up with books selling for
$1500.
Or more:
http://www.michaeleisen.org/blog/?p=358
etc.
Remind me why HFT is a great idea...
I would think pdp 10 original books / manuals are hard to find.
-spc (Who knows? If you keep searching, you might find the original
seller selling it for $5 ... )
2 Mar
2 Mar
11:59 a.m.
New subject: Algorithmic pricing gone critical - Re: PDP-10 programming [was RE: Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine)]
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william
degnan
Sent: 02 March 2016 03:30
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Algorithmic pricing gone critical - Re: PDP-10 programming [was
RE: Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX development
machine)]
On Mar 1, 2016 8:19 PM, "Toby Thain" <toby at telegraphics.com.au>
wrote:
I still have my copy of the book by Michael Singer:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Introduction-DECsystem-10-assembler-language-progra…er+decsystem.
This is the book I used to program a DECSYSTEM20 in assembler, although I must have used
other resources to help me along that I no longer recall. The book is available at a much
more reasonable price than the Gorin book (which I don't have).
Regards
Rob
On 2016-03-01 7:36 PM, Sean Conner wrote:
>
> It was thus said that the Great Rich Alderson once stated:
>>
>>
>> For most hobbyists, even $100 is too much. I was simply astounded
>> at
the
>> chutzpah of the seller--right there on
the Amazon list--who was
>> asking nearly $1500 for a copy.
>
>
> I think that comes from an unchecked computer algorithm, not
> simple
greed.
> I think what's happening here is someone
(some Amazon third party)
offered
> the book for, say, $5. Another third party
scans Amazon for such
> books,
and
> offers it for say, $6, with the hope that you
(the potential buyer)
> will only see their their offer for $6 and buy from them, at which
> point they will buy it for $5 from the original seller, sell it to
> you for $6 and pocket the $1 profit. The problem comes when a third
> third-party seller sees the offer for $6 and does the same thing as
> the second one, only now they're offering it for $7, will pay $6 for it and
pocket $1 profit.
>
> Keep repeating that process and you end up with books selling for
$1500.
Or more:
http://www.michaeleisen.org/blog/?p=358
etc.
Remind me why HFT is a great idea...
I would think pdp 10 original books / manuals are hard to find.
-spc (Who knows? If you keep searching, you might find the original
seller selling it for $5 ... )
12:07 p.m.
New subject: Algorithmic pricing gone critical - Re: PDP-10 programming [was RE: Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine)]
On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 12:59 PM, Robert Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com
wrote:
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william
> > degnan
> > Sent: 02 March 2016 03:30
> > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> > <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> > Subject: Re: Algorithmic pricing gone critical - Re: PDP-10 programming
> [was
> > RE: Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX development
> > machine)]
> >
> > On Mar 1, 2016 8:19 PM, "Toby Thain" <toby at
telegraphics.com.au wrote:
> >
>
> > > On 2016-03-01 7:36 PM, Sean Conner wrote:
> > >>
> > >> It was thus said that the Great Rich Alderson once stated:
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> For most hobbyists, even $100 is too much. I was simply astounded
> > >>> at
> > the
> > >>> chutzpah of the seller--right there on the Amazon list--who was
> > >>> asking nearly $1500 for a copy.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> I think that comes from an unchecked computer algorithm, not
> > >> simple
> > greed.
> > >> I think what's happening here is someone (some Amazon third party)
> > offered
> > >> the book for, say, $5. Another third party scans Amazon for such
> > >> books,
> > and
> > >> offers it for say, $6, with the hope that you (the potential buyer)
> > >> will only see their their offer for $6 and buy from them, at which
> > >> point they will buy it for $5 from the original seller, sell it to
> > >> you for $6 and pocket the $1 profit. The problem comes when a third
> > >> third-party seller sees the offer for $6 and does the same thing as
> > >> the second one, only now they're offering it for $7, will pay $6
for
> it and
> > pocket $1 profit.
> > >>
> > >> Keep repeating that process and you end up with books selling for
> > $1500.
> > >
> > >
> > > Or more:
> > > http://www.michaeleisen.org/blog/?p=358
> > > etc.
> > >
> > > Remind me why HFT is a great idea...
> > >
> > >>
> > >> -spc (Who knows? If you keep searching, you might find the
> original
> > >> seller selling it for $5 ... )
> > >>
> > >
> >
> > I would think pdp 10 original books / manuals are hard to find.
>
> I still have my copy of the book by Michael Singer:
>
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Introduction-DECsystem-10-assembler-language-progra…er+decsystem.
> This is the book I used to program a DECSYSTEM20 in assembler, although I
> must have used other resources to help me along that I no longer recall.
> The book is available at a much more reasonable price than the Gorin book
> (which I don't have).
>
There's at least two others available from Amazon US for < US$15.
Warner
3000
days inactive
3001
days old
14 comments
13 participants
participants (13)
-
aperry＠snowmoose.com -
billdegnan＠gmail.com -
glen.slick＠gmail.com -
hilpert＠cs.ubc.ca -
imp＠bsdimp.com -
isking＠uw.edu -
johnhreinhardt＠yahoo.com -
mark＠wickensonline.co.uk -
pontus＠Update.UU.SE -
RichA＠LivingComputerMuseum.org -
robert.jarratt＠ntlworld.com -
spc＠conman.org -
toby＠telegraphics.com.au