10 Nov
2016
10 Nov
'16
11:36 a.m.
I don't know if anyone here has the interest or capability to do it, but
creating a replica of the blue tape trays with the clear overlay that
one could sell for a few bucks with some random fanfold copies of DEC or
other diagnostics would be nice.
Perhaps if there were a ready source of replicas with a perpetual
listing or 10 to overwhelm the auctions with 100 and 300 dollar auctions
for the genuine originals the originals would be listed and sold for a
reasonable amount.
I'm sure there there are things going to people with no idea what they
have which would have been nice to image and save. I would think
someone with vacuum molding and some skill with plastics could do the
trays. not sure about the source of tapes to sell with them, maybe that
does justify some extra expense.
People with working readers and libraries of tapes might like them as well.
thanks
Jim
10 Nov
10 Nov
11:55 a.m.
There has to be a better solution than either the vaccum or all-plex cases for paper tape.
Neither one is very good for
anything other than what the slots were set up for (like 1") Short ones get bunched
together in a slot, and long ones
bridge slots. Either way, you end up not being able to see the labels.
but creating a replica of the blue tape trays with
the clear overlay that one could sell for a few bucks with some random fanfold copies of
DEC or other diagnostics would
be nice.
5:36 p.m.
And where can I get new fan-fold paper tape to put in the trays?
On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 2:55 PM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
There has to be a better solution than either the
vaccum or all-plex cases for paper tape. Neither one is very good for
anything other than what the slots were set up for (like 1") Short ones get bunched
together in a slot, and long ones
bridge slots. Either way, you end up not being able to see the labels.
but creating a replica of the blue tape trays
with
the clear overlay that one could sell for a few bucks with some random fanfold copies of
DEC or other diagnostics would
be nice.
11 Nov
11 Nov
7:32 a.m.
There are no suppliers, and the NOS stuff is all gone.
No one is making new 80 column punched card stock either.
That is why a box of fanfold sells for 25$ and up on eBay,
even more if it is has the DEC logo.
On 11/10/16 5:36 PM, Charles Dickman wrote:
And where can I get new fan-fold paper tape to put in
the trays?
7:42 a.m.
On Nov 11, 2016, at 10:32 AM, Al Kossow <aek at
bitsavers.org> wrote:
There are no suppliers, and the NOS stuff is all gone.
No one is making new 80 column punched card stock either.
No stock, or no cards? I would think that one of the paper manufacturers would be putting
out postcard stock of the right specifications. Cutting it to proper card shape is not
trivial, admittedly.
Is punch tape still made? I would guess so, for old CNC machines perhaps. That's
typically roll tape, not fanfold.
paul
7:49 a.m.
On 11 November 2016 at 15:42, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
Is punch tape still made? I would guess so, for old
CNC machines
perhaps. That's typically roll tape, not fanfold.
There's a British supplier that recently had another run made, although
it's on a roll.
http://www.gnt.co.uk/papertape.htm
8:55 a.m.
you can still buy rolls from Western NC
http://www.westnc.com/paper-tape-rolls.html
it ain't cheap
On 11/11/16 7:49 AM, Tom Moss wrote:
On 11 November 2016 at 15:42, Paul Koning
<paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
Is punch tape still made? I would guess so, for
old CNC machines
perhaps. That's typically roll tape, not fanfold.
There's a British supplier that recently had another run made, although
it's on a roll.
http://www.gnt.co.uk/papertape.htm
5:51 p.m.
Tom Moss said:
On 11 November 2016 at 15:42, Paul Koning
<paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
Can the right grade paper be bought on a large roll? If so, suppliers can
provide slitting services to cut them into any width required.
Or perhaps it could be done at home on roll slitting gadget such as this?:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Foil-Paper-Cutter-Slitter-Hot-Foil-Stamping-Rol…
Steve.
Is punch tape still made? I would guess so, for
old CNC machines
perhaps. That's typically roll tape, not fanfold.
There's a British supplier that recently had another run made, although
it's on a roll.
http://www.gnt.co.uk/papertape.htm
8:53 a.m.
On 11/11/16 7:42 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
This has been discussed for several years here. No one is making paper stock to IBM card
stock specifications.
Using a paper folder to convert roll to fanfold has also been discussed.
Nothing has resulted from either discussion.
No one is
making new 80 column punched card stock either.
No stock, or no cards? I would think that one of the paper manufacturers would be
putting out postcard stock of the right specifications.
9:01 a.m.
On 11 November 2016 at 16:53, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
This has been discussed for several years here. No one
is making paper
stock to IBM card stock specification
Did all punch card manufacturers use the same stock though? I vaguely
recall ICL cards feeling somewhat smoother?
1:56 p.m.
On 11/11/2016 8:53 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
On 11/11/16 7:42 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
This has been discussed for several years here. No one is making
paper stock to IBM card stock specifications.
A friend I know in St. Louis had them
made regularly at an client's
operation. The card stock for credit card pull forms is correct. They
may still have the dies for their machines. However I don't think the
favors exist to get more made.
Can check though. The card stock comes in 12' diameter rolls, so it
isn't a "pretty please" sort of favor to get the machines set up that
handle the manufacturing process. Think rolls of paper the size of
newsprint, and weighing in at 3000# +
They might also be able to do paper tape, though I'd favor if it is a
scratch operation doing it from mylar, even though that is hard on punches.
thanks
Jim
No one is
making new 80 column punched card stock either.
No stock, or no cards? I would
think that one of the paper manufacturers would be putting out postcard stock of the right
specifications. Using a paper folder to convert roll to fanfold has
also been discussed.
Nothing has resulted from either discussion.
2:03 p.m.
On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 1:56 PM, jim stephens <jwsmail at jwsss.com> wrote:
On 11/11/2016 8:53 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
Somewhere I have a photo of the machine that IBM used to make punch cards.
It's in a small museum in Endicott, NY. It did indeed take a roll of paper
made to IBM specs and produce the flat punch cards many of us know and some
subset of those, love. It hadn't been run in years when I saw it.
--
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School <http://ischool.uw.edu>
Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical
Narrative Through a Design Lens
Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal <http://tribunalvoices.org>
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab <http://vsdesign.org>
University of Washington
There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."
On 11/11/16 7:42 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
No one is making new 80 column punched card stock either.
No
stock, or no cards? I would think that one of the paper
manufacturers would be putting out postcard stock of the right
specifications.
This has been discussed for several years here. No one is making paper
stock to IBM card stock specifications.
A friend I know in St. Louis had them made regularly at an client's
operation. The card stock for credit card pull forms is correct. They may
still have the dies for their machines. However I don't think the favors
exist to get more made.
Can check though. The card stock comes in 12' diameter rolls, so it
isn't a "pretty please" sort of favor to get the machines set up that
handle the manufacturing process. Think rolls of paper the size of
newsprint, and weighing in at 3000# +
They might also be able to do paper tape, though I'd favor if it is a
scratch operation doing it from mylar, even though that is hard on punches.
thanks
Jim
Using a paper folder to convert roll to fanfold has also been discussed.
>
> Nothing has resulted from either discussion.
>
>
> 
2:17 p.m.
On 2016-11-11 6:03 PM, Ian S. King wrote:
On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 1:56 PM, jim stephens
<jwsmail at jwsss.com> wrote:
The machine is called a Carroll Press, the cylindrical printing plates
still show up on eBay from time to time. The presses crank out cards at
about 800 a minute, they are feed from big rolls of card stock the
machine cuts prints and boxes the cards. In the late 80s I was working
in the IBM Toronto Lab on the second floor of the old plant on Don Mills
Rd. and there was still some Carroll Presses operating in the basement.
You could hear the low rumble and feel the vibration on our floor when
they where running.
Paul.
On 11/11/2016 8:53 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
Somewhere I have a photo of the machine that IBM used to make punch cards.
It's in a small museum in Endicott, NY. It did indeed take a roll of paper
made to IBM specs and produce the flat punch cards many of us know and some
subset of those, love. It hadn't been run in years when I saw it.
On 11/11/16 7:42 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
No one is making new 80 column punched card stock either.
A friend I know in St. Louis had them made regularly at an client's
operation. The card stock for credit card pull forms is correct. They may
still have the dies for their machines. However I don't think the favors
exist to get more made.
Can check though. The card stock comes in 12' diameter rolls, so it
isn't a "pretty please" sort of favor to get the machines set up that
handle the manufacturing process. Think rolls of paper the size of
newsprint, and weighing in at 3000# +
They might also be able to do paper tape, though I'd favor if it is a
scratch operation doing it from mylar, even though that is hard on punches.
thanks
Jim
Using a paper folder to convert roll to fanfold has also been discussed.
> Nothing has resulted from either discussion.
>
>
> No stock, or no cards? I would think that one of
the paper
manufacturers would be putting out postcard stock of the right
specifications.
This has been discussed for several years here. No one is making paper
stock to IBM card stock specifications.
2:46 p.m.
CHM has one, and a collection of printing cylinders
http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102670869
On 11/11/16 2:03 PM, Ian S. King wrote:
Somewhere I have a photo of the machine that IBM used
to make punch cards.
It's in a small museum in Endicott, NY. It did indeed take a roll of paper
made to IBM specs and produce the flat punch cards many of us know and some
subset of those, love. It hadn't been run in years when I saw it.
3:01 p.m.
The machine that is used where I'm referring to cuts from a roll about 2
cards wide. The system also has to be able to merge up to four sheets
together per form as the real product is for the full size credit card
forms that one uses with either NCR paper, or with carbon. They can
handle both.
they print with offset plates onto the stock, and not with the types of
cylinders I've seen. The Holerith card stock was made by taking an
actual card, and measuring it and making a die to cut to that size, and
scanning the image on the card. not a big difference from the cards
that are used in full sized credit card machines.
The machine is about 15' or more long, 2' wide and probably 10' high.
Multiple stock roll holders can be positioned depending on the number of
forms being laminated for the run, so the setup can get pretty large.
I don't know how many lines they had, but there were several of the
machines. Not sure I've got any photos, any I have were when I had a
film camera, quite some time ago if I have any.
thanks
jim
On 11/11/2016 2:46 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
CHM has one, and a collection of printing cylinders
http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102670869
On 11/11/16 2:03 PM, Ian S. King wrote:
Somewhere I have a photo of the machine that IBM
used to make punch cards.
It's in a small museum in Endicott, NY. It did indeed take a roll of paper
made to IBM specs and produce the flat punch cards many of us know and some
subset of those, love. It hadn't been run in years when I saw it.
3:05 p.m.
Not seen one of those for ages, These days, at least in the UK, Credit Cards seem to come
attached to a standard letter with a blob of sticky stuff...
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jim
stephens
Sent: 11 November 2016 23:01
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Paper tape carriers and paper tape
The machine that is used where I'm referring to cuts from a roll about 2 cards
wide. The system also has to be able to merge up to four sheets together
per form as the real product is for the full size credit card forms that one uses
with either NCR paper, or with carbon. They can handle both.
they print with offset plates onto the stock, and not with the types of
cylinders I've seen. The Holerith card stock was made by taking an actual
card, and measuring it and making a die to cut to that size, and scanning the
image on the card. not a big difference from the cards that are used in full
sized credit card machines.
The machine is about 15' or more long, 2' wide and probably 10' high.
Multiple stock roll holders can be positioned depending on the number of
forms being laminated for the run, so the setup can get pretty large.
I don't know how many lines they had, but there were several of the
machines. Not sure I've got any photos, any I have were when I had a film
camera, quite some time ago if I have any.
thanks
jim
On 11/11/2016 2:46 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
CHM has one, and a collection of printing
cylinders
http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102670869
On 11/11/16 2:03 PM, Ian S. King wrote:
> Somewhere I have a photo of the machine that IBM used to make punch
cards.
> It's in a small museum in Endicott, NY.
It did indeed take a roll of
> paper made to IBM specs and produce the flat punch cards many of us
> know and some subset of those, love. It hadn't been run in years when I
saw it.
>>
>
4:16 p.m.
On 11/11/2016 3:05 PM, Dave Wade wrote:
Not seen one of those for ages, These days, at least
in the UK, Credit Cards seem to come attached to a standard letter with a blob of sticky
stuff...
Dave
<snip>
Image of manual credit form here:
http://www.shipnfast.com/jpgs/2plbigpic.jpg
3-1/4 x 7-7/8 Inches
Stock from this site:
http://www.elect-mer.com/credit-card-slips/
Hollerith card info (via Wikipedia)
Card size is exactly 7 3?8 by 3 1?4 inches (187.325 mm ? 82.55 mm). The
cards are made
of smooth stock, 0.007 inches (180 ?m) thick. There are about 143 cards to
the inch (56/cm).
Near as I can tell, 100 of the NCR carbonless forms is about an inch, so
the thickness
of the stock should be close to Hollerith cards.
I'm a bit concerned now that the chipless technology is deployed in the
US. Many contracts
will have pretty significant penalties for swipe and non chip /
signature transactions, so
the demand for manual backup like this will probably take a significant
nosedive, with
merchants just declining the business till their machines work, rather
than risk a chargeback
on a manual form.
Thanks
jim
12 Nov
12 Nov
11:24 a.m.
On Nov 11, 2016, at 7:16 PM, jim stephens <jwsmail
at jwsss.com> wrote:
...
Hollerith card info (via Wikipedia)
Card size is exactly 7 3?8 by 3 1?4 inches (187.325 mm ? 82.55 mm). The cards are made
of smooth stock, 0.007 inches (180 ?m) thick. There are about 143 cards to
the inch (56/cm).
I found another description of the specs in an old card reader/punch peripheral manual.
It also lists weight (0.534 lbs per 100 cards). It gives tolerances (length +/- 0.005
inch, width +0.007, -0.003, angle between the sides 90 degrees +/- 5 minutes, sides
straight +/- 0.003 inches). And, very interesting, it mentions that the orientation of
the paper fibers shall be parallel to the long side.
There are lots of paper manufacturers and lots of grades and thickness of paper. The
thickness we're talking about is one that shows up in a couple I looked at. So it
wouldn't surprise me at all if suitable paper could be had. The matter of cutting it
to the correct shape is a different issue, admittedly.
paul
8:09 p.m.
On Nov 12, 2016, at 2:24 PM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
There are lots of paper manufacturers and lots of
grades and thickness of paper. The thickness we're talking about is one that shows up
in a couple I looked at. So it wouldn't surprise me at all if suitable paper could be
had. The matter of cutting it to the correct shape is a different issue, admittedly.
It may not be all that difficult. Perhaps the right method here is a die-cut, a common
method for doing custom cuts of paper ? often far more complicated than punch cards. The
basic idea is that you build a form up with steel rules that define the edges you want
cut. These rules essentially act as a blade. Then you mount this on a press, and run
through a stack of paper as if you?re printing, but in fact you?re just cutting.
Here?s a basic overview:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1NKLPYS0Vo
A few years back, while photographing letterpress printers (see
http://johnlabovitz.com/projects/letterpress), I met a fellow (Rob Barnes) in Denver who
specializes in die-cutting. Like most die-cut operators, he uses mid-20th century
Heidelberg letterpress printing presses. I have no idea if he?s interested in a
retro-punch card project, but it might be worth contacting him.
http://www.vintagepressworks.com
Frankly, I think the harder task is to find a good stock of appropriate paper.
Best,
?John
1 Mar
1 Mar
8:11 a.m.
On 11/13/2016 05:09 AM, John Labovitz wrote:
A few years back, while photographing letterpress
printers (see
http://johnlabovitz.com/projects/letterpress), I met a fellow (Rob
Barnes) in Denver who specializes in die-cutting. Like most die-cut
operators, he uses mid-20th century Heidelberg letterpress printing
presses. I have no idea if he?s interested in a retro-punch card
project, but it might be worth contacting him.
Nice pictures!
I would do the die cutting - but I'm in Europe. Have two Heidelberg
windmills and a Heidelberg Cylinder. On the windmills I could make many
cards (thousands to ten thousands), using the cylinder I could process
tons of paper.
Frankly, I think the harder task is to find a good
stock of
appropriate paper.
Right. The old problem..
16 Nov
16 Nov
2:44 a.m.
On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 02:03:36PM -0800, Ian S. King wrote:
Somewhere I have a photo of the machine that IBM used to make punch cards.
It's in a small museum in Endicott, NY. It did indeed take a roll of paper
made to IBM specs and produce the flat punch cards many of us know and some
subset of those, love. It hadn't been run in years when I saw it.
Ed has some pictures of it:
http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/IBM-EndicottMuseum.html
/P
12 Nov
12 Nov
5:33 a.m.
On Fri, 11 Nov 2016, Al Kossow wrote:
This has been discussed for several years here. No one is making paper
stock to IBM card stock specifications.
I think that Hummel in Magstadt still makes punched cards. We had an
inquiry a few years ago when we wanted to have cards with our custom logo
and layout. I think the price was 40 Euros per box of 2000.
Christian
No one is making new 80 column punched card stock
either.
No stock, or no cards? I would think that one of the paper
manufacturers would be putting out postcard stock of the right
specifications.
5:54 a.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Christian
Corti
Sent: 12 November 2016 13:33
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Paper tape carriers and paper tape
On Fri, 11 Nov 2016, Al Kossow wrote:
This has been discussed for several years here. No one is making paper
stock to IBM card stock specifications.
I think that Hummel in Magstadt still makes punched cards. We had an
inquiry a few years ago when we wanted to have cards with our custom logo
and layout. I think the price was 40 Euros per box of 2000.
I e-mailed them and got no reply...
No one is making new 80 column punched card stock
either.
No stock, or no cards? I would think that one of the paper
manufacturers would be putting out postcard stock of the right
specifications. Christian
7:20 a.m.
On 11/12/2016 5:54 AM, Dave Wade wrote:
I e-mailed them and got no reply...
> >Christian
Maybe if more people email, we might make them think there is a
market.
http://www.hummel-print.com
looks like their main business from the web site is printing boarding
pass stock, which be a little light for Hollerith cards, but certainly
the size isn't a stretch.
Ralf Kunkel is director of marketing, sales.
rkunkel at hummel-print.com
Thanks
Jim
1 Mar
1 Mar
7:16 a.m.
On 11/11/2016 05:53 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
Yes. No wonder... But
perhaps one could find something that is just
similar enough. There are so many papers out there! If you want the
official stuff with (not only that!) X and y separately specified shrink
rated with respect to humidity, specified dielectric constant and so on
- you're lost. But if you look for something that just runs pretty
nicely on old card readers, it could (!) be easier.
No stock, or
no cards? I would think that one of the paper manufacturers would be putting out postcard
stock of the right specifications.
This has been discussed for several years here.
No one is making paper stock to IBM card stock specifications. Using a paper folder to convert roll to fanfold has
also been discussed.
Nothing has resulted from either discussion.
The missing word: "yet" -
who knows what will still happen!
Philipp
7:41 a.m.
On Wed, Mar 1, 2017 at 10:16 AM, Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 11/11/2016 05:53 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
No stock, or no cards? I would think that one of the paper manufacturers
Yes. No wonder... But perhaps one could find something that is just
similar enough. There are so many papers out there! If you want the
official stuff with (not only that!) X and y separately specified shrink
rated with respect to humidity, specified dielectric constant and so on -
you're lost. But if you look for something that just runs pretty nicely on
old card readers, it could (!) be easier.
Using a paper folder to convert roll to fanfold has also been discussed.
I would check with the greenkeys guys. Some of them may have a few cases
available.
b
would be
putting out postcard stock of the right specifications.
This has been discussed for several years here. No one is making paper
stock to IBM card stock specifications.
Nothing has resulted from either discussion.
The missing word: "yet" - who knows what will still happen!
Philipp
11 Nov
11 Nov
10:55 a.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul
Koning
Sent: 11 November 2016 15:43
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Paper tape carriers and paper tape
I tried to get some made. Supplier could not source any card of the proper
thicknes...
... would love a box of cards
On Nov 11, 2016, at 10:32 AM, Al Kossow <aek
at bitsavers.org> wrote:
There are no suppliers, and the NOS stuff is all gone.
No one is making new 80 column punched card stock either.
No stock, or no cards? I would think that one of the paper manufacturers would be putting out postcard stock of the right
specifications. Cutting
it to
proper card shape is not trivial, admittedly.
Is punch tape still made? I would guess so, for old CNC machines perhaps.
That's typically roll tape, not fanfold.
In the UK GNT still supply
http://www.gnt.co.uk/papertape.htm
paul
Dave
G4UGM
10:58 a.m.
On Fri, 11 Nov 2016, Dave Wade wrote:
I tried to get some made. Supplier could not source any card of the proper
thicknes...
... would love a box of cards
Check with older IT staff members at your local universities. Some of
them still have boxes of unpunched cards that they use for making notes.
Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/
There are no suppliers, and the NOS stuff is all
gone.
No one is making new 80 column punched card stock either.
No stock, or no cards? I would think that one of the paper manufacturers
12:25 p.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike
Loewen
Sent: 11 November 2016 18:58
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: RE: Paper tape carriers and paper tape
On Fri, 11 Nov 2016, Dave Wade wrote:
I tried to get some made. Supplier could not source any card of the
proper thicknes...
... would love a box of cards
Check with older IT staff members at your local universities. Some of
them
There are no suppliers, and the NOS stuff is all
gone.
No one is making new 80 column punched card stock either.
No stock, or no cards? I would think that one of the paper
manufacturers still have boxes of unpunched cards that they use for
making notes.
Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology
http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/
I think in the one I worked in all the staff who might have had cards have
been purged long ago, but I do know another place to ask...
Dave
1 Mar
1 Mar
7:11 a.m.
On 11/11/2016 04:32 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
There are no suppliers, and the NOS stuff is all
gone.
No one is making new 80 column punched card stock either.
Really? I thought there
is still some card stock to buy.
On 11/10/16 5:36 PM, Charles Dickman wrote:
> And where can I get new fan-fold paper tape to put in the trays?
Would it be interesting to make new paper tapes? I once built a
prototype of a fanfolding machine. It worked not perfectly due to lack
of mechanic precision. But that could be fixed.
It's no problem to get some paper cut and rewound to the right
dimensions. Even printing something interesting onto the roll is no big
deal.
I'm so sorry about our factory (where I have my printshop and storage
now): There was all the stuff needed to flexo print and cut paper tape
rolls. In fact they even actually produced some punch tape in the past.
I sometimes thought about getting back into small scale (before it was
HUGE) flexo printing and paper roll processing to create a small
"vintage supplies" business.
Thought of teletype rolls (the sprocket oney!), paper tapes, FORTRAN
coding forms (which I could already deliver from my letterpress shop!),
CalComp plotter rolls and so on.
Philipp
--
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hachti＠hachti.de -
isking＠uw.edu -
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