2 Nov
2004
2 Nov
'04
3:43 a.m.
Hi,
While reading up on my old Minix stuff (I found a box full of my old
Minix backup floppies a couple of weeks ago), I tried to install them
onto a PC I, um, borrowed from my customer (I was in Oslo for the
week, and was bored at nights ;-) but that would not install.
Obviously, old system software does not necessarily have to run on the
new, current (PC) systems.
Which led me to consider the impact of this on being able to run the
older PC software anytime in the future. Can one still install a
QNX box, or a Minix box, or an OS/2 system?
So.. what it boils down to is: is there any (serious) project on doing
a "old pc systems" emulation a la SimH, which does, for example, a
pure IBM PC, PC/XT or PC/AT ?
Just some random thoughts...
Fred
--
Fred N. van Kempen, DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation) Collector/Archivist
Visit the VAXlab Project at http://VAXlab.pdp11.nl/
Visit the Archives at http://www.pdp11.nl/
Email: waltje(a)pdp11.nl BUSSUM, THE NETHERLANDS / Mountain View, CA, USA
2 Nov
2 Nov
3:59 a.m.
On Tue, 2 Nov 2004, Fred N. van Kempen wrote:
So.. what it boils down to is: is there any (serious)
project on doing
a "old pc systems" emulation a la SimH, which does, for example, a
pure IBM PC, PC/XT or PC/AT ?
You're not kidding? How funny.
Minix will run on the PC/AT, I'm sure. As far as "old pc systems"
emulator, can you get any less specific?
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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4:07 a.m.
On Tue, 2 Nov 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
On Tue, 2 Nov 2004, Fred N. van Kempen wrote:
No, I am not kidding.
So.. what it boils down to is: is there any
(serious) project on doing
a "old pc systems" emulation a la SimH, which does, for example, a
pure IBM PC, PC/XT or PC/AT ?
You're not kidding? How funny. Minix will run on the PC/AT, I'm sure. As far as
"old pc systems"
Yes, I know. I wrote about half of the system.
emulator, can you get any less specific?
Eh?
Fred
--
Fred N. van Kempen, DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation) Collector/Archivist
Visit the VAXlab Project at http://VAXlab.pdp11.nl/
Visit the Archives at http://www.pdp11.nl/
Email: waltje(a)pdp11.nl BUSSUM, THE NETHERLANDS / Mountain View, CA, USA
4:47 a.m.
> > So.. what it boils down to is: is there any
(serious) project on doing
> > a "old pc systems" emulation a la SimH, which does, for example, a
> > pure IBM PC, PC/XT or PC/AT ?
>
> You're not kidding? How funny.
No, I am not kidding.
I for one don't doubt that you're not kidding. I've had mixed luck trying
to run various OS's under Virtual PC on my Mac, you might have better luck
with the PC version of Virtual PC. As has been mentioned there is BOCHS,
and DOSBOX for Linux comes to mind (I'm not sure if all it can run is DOS or
not.
As PC's advance, it becomes harder for those of us with old software to
continue to run it. Of course this is an issue for most computer systems,
as there is always some app or another that doesn't want to run under
current OS releases.
Zane
5:20 a.m.
*ahem*
http://www.mess.org/sysinfo/pc.htm
Like I said ... MESS. :)
--
---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser(a)floodgap.com
-- DON'T PANIC! ---------------------------------------------------------------
7:20 a.m.
Zane H. Healy <healyzh(a)aracnet.com> wrote:
you might have better luck
with the PC version of Virtual PC.
http://weblogs.asp.net/virtual_pc_guy/
This is the weblog of the Virtual PC (Intel version) product manager. He
loves getting old software and operating systems running under VPC
(Intel).
--
tim lindner
tlindner(a)ix.netcom.com
4:52 a.m.
On Tue, 2 Nov 2004, Fred N. van Kempen wrote:
Well, "old pc system" can mean a thousand different things. What's your
reference point?
The bochs emulator that Mike posted a link to seems really nice.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
emulator, can
you get any less specific?
Eh?
5:01 a.m.
On Tue, 2 Nov 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
On Tue, 2 Nov 2004, Fred N. van Kempen wrote:
Well, "old pc system" can mean a thousand different things. What's your
reference point?
That is why I narrowed it down to "IBM PC, PC/XT or
PC/AT" in my
message, wouldn't you think?
emulator,
can you get any less specific?
Eh? The bochs emulator that Mike posted a link to seems
really nice.
yes, looking at it right now. It does seem a bit modern (386, PCI)
but is useful as a starting point.
--f
4:07 a.m.
So.. what it boils down to is: is there any (serious)
project on doing
a "old pc systems" emulation a la SimH, which does, for example, a
pure IBM PC, PC/XT or PC/AT ?
Isn't there something like this in MESS?
--
---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser(a)floodgap.com
-- The Devil can cite Scripture for his purpose. -- Shakespeare ---------------
4:09 a.m.
On Nov 2, 2004, at 10:43 AM, Fred N. van Kempen wrote:
<snip>
So.. what it boils down to is: is there any (serious) project on doing
a "old pc systems" emulation a la SimH, which does, for example, a
pure IBM PC, PC/XT or PC/AT ?
Try Bochs: http://bochs.sourceforge.net/
Mike
11:08 a.m.
Mike Cesari wrote:
On Nov 2, 2004, at 10:43 AM, Fred N. van Kempen wrote:
<snip>
There is also DOSBox: http://dosbox.sourceforge.net.
Bochs tries to emulate newer machines, while DOSBox caters to older PC
emulation.
There is also QEMU: http://fabrice.bellard.free.fr/qemu/
Though I have no first hand knowledge of this one.
Jim
--
Jim Brain, Brain Innovations
brain(a)jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com
Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times!
So.. what it boils down to is: is there any (serious) project on doing
a "old pc systems" emulation a la SimH, which does, for example, a
pure IBM PC, PC/XT or PC/AT ?
Try Bochs: http://bochs.sourceforge.net/
Mike 
11:44 a.m.
On Tue, 2004-11-02 at 20:08, Jim Brain wrote:
<snip>
There is also DOSBox: http://dosbox.sourceforge.net.
DOSbox is a "DOS" emulator specifically targetted to run older style DOS
games. I know of no way to install a alternate OS in it.
I suppose if your alternate OS could be loaded via a method like loadlin
does for DOS & Linux, you might be able to get somewhere.
It looks like DOSBox is at least a rudamentary 386 emulator as it'll run
Ultima7, and Ultima8 (Which amazingly are on topic these days. :-) )
Bochs tries to emulate newer machines, while DOSBox caters to older PC
emulation.
There is also QEMU: http://fabrice.bellard.free.fr/qemu/
Though I have no first hand knowledge of this one.
Haven't heard too much about QEMU, other than (in a entirely OT sort of
way) its a good way to run the x86 Linux NeverWinter Nights game server,
under PPC Linux. :->
David
Jim
11:54 a.m.
On Tue, Nov 02, 2004 at 08:44:00PM -0500, David Holland wrote:
I use it to play "XCom" under Linux. AFAIK, it's optimized for DOS
calls, i.e. BIOS stuff, so I would not expect MINIX to work on it,
since it's emulating a ROM API more than the hardware itself.
-ethan
--
Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 03-Nov-2004 01:50 Z
South Pole Station
PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -58.4 F (-50.2 C) Windchill -87.2 F (-66.2 C)
APO AP 96598 Wind 8 kts Grid 058 Barometer 665.3 mb (11184. ft)
Ethan.Dicks(a)amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html
There is also
DOSBox: http://dosbox.sourceforge.net.
DOSbox is a "DOS" emulator specifically targetted to run older style DOS
games. I know of no way to install a alternate OS in it.
2:27 p.m.
It looks like DOSBox is at least a rudamentary 386
emulator as it'll run
Ultima7, and Ultima8 (Which amazingly are on topic these days. :-) )
Anyone know if it will run "Warlords 2"? I'm half tempted to bring
my PowerMac 8500/180 out of mothballs specifically to run that game
:^) (which like most of my other favorite games is ontopic)
I've been unable to get Warlords 2 running under VPC7 on the Mac :^(
Zane
--
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
4:25 a.m.
On Tuesday 02 November 2004 12:43, Fred N. van Kempen wrote:
Hi,
So.. what it boils down to is: is there any (serious)
project on doing
a "old pc systems" emulation a la SimH, which does, for example, a
pure IBM PC, PC/XT or PC/AT ?
I had a request yesterday for a 286 or earlier machine, the person says
that somethings with the serial ports changed after that and the test
equipment gets communication errors on newer machines.
Another person wanted a 486-66 for a Massspectrometer
I know there was a problem with games that were written using the system
speed to time loops, I guess this also occurred in test equipment.
--
Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600
Machines to trade http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600/trade.html
Open Source Weekend http://www.osw.ca
6:50 a.m.
I've not come across it with serial ports but it's a common problem
with older hardware that connected to the system bus- I have several
older GPIB cards that won't run in anything later than a 286 and an
EPROM burner card that won't operate in anything later than a genuine
XT.
DaveB
NZ
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Kenzie" <kenziem(a)sympatico.ca>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 7:25 AM
Subject: Re: "Old PC" emulation ?
On Tuesday 02 November 2004 12:43, Fred N. van Kempen
wrote:
Hi,
So.. what it boils down to is: is there any
(serious) project on
doing
a "old pc systems" emulation a la SimH, which does, for example, a
pure IBM PC, PC/XT or PC/AT ?
I had a request yesterday for a 286 or earlier machine, the person
says
that somethings with the serial ports changed after that and the
test
equipment gets communication errors on newer machines.
Another person wanted a 486-66 for a Massspectrometer
I know there was a problem with games that were written using the
system
speed to time loops, I guess this also occurred in test equipment.
--
Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600
Machines to trade http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600/trade.html
Open Source Weekend http://www.osw.ca
7:40 a.m.
On Wed, 3 Nov 2004, Dave Brown wrote:
I've not come across it with serial ports but
it's a common problem
with older hardware that connected to the system bus- I have several
older GPIB cards that won't run in anything later than a 286 and an
EPROM burner card that won't operate in anything later than a genuine
XT.
The Cordata/Corona Data Systems laser printer interface card
is for PC/XT. Attempting to install the software on 286 or
above gives a message telling you not to, and mentioning a
286 version of the board that may or may not have ever existed.
Is the hardware actually incompatible?
Or is it a bogus test by the software?
8:03 a.m.
All,
Thanks for all the replies. I decided to go and play with both the
BOCHS open source emulator, as well as the Microsoft Virtual PC one.
BOCHS does not do anything smaller than a 386, as it is an IA32
emulator, but it is opensource. MS VPC does do 286, but is a
commercial product. Not a problem for me, since I am a Solution
Provider. :)
Will keep y'all informed on progress. Still making image copies of
all those (~500 !) diskettes.. :)
Cheers,
Fred
8:21 a.m.
At 04:03 PM 11/2/2004, Fred N. van Kempen wrote:
BOCHS does not do anything smaller than a 386, as it is
an IA32
emulator, but it is opensource. MS VPC does do 286, but is a
commercial product. Not a problem for me, since I am a Solution
Provider. :)
This might be a good time to mention the Microsoft Action Pack,
a way to get about $10,000 of their products for $300, including VPC:
http://desktopengineer.com/article.php?story=2004022806325233
- John
8:35 a.m.
At 05:21 PM 11/2/2004, you wrote:
This might be a good time to mention the Microsoft
Action Pack,
a way to get about $10,000 of their products for $300, including VPC:
http://desktopengineer.com/article.php?story=2004022806325233
- John
Cool, but right off, using Mozilla I can see there'll be problems. :-)
They're going to want you to get all the way in bed with them.
Ed K.
9 p.m.
I'm fairly sure it's really a software issue related to timing - I
suppose there could be genuine hardware limitations (speed wise) with
some of the early chips-although I doubt that bus speeds were fast
enough to bring those limitations into play.
DaveB
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Cisin" <cisin(a)xenosoft.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 10:40 AM
Subject: Re: "Old PC" emulation ?
On Wed, 3 Nov 2004, Dave Brown wrote:
I've not come across it with serial ports but
it's a common problem
with older hardware that connected to the system bus- I have
several
older GPIB cards that won't run in anything later than a 286 and an
EPROM burner card that won't operate in anything later than a
genuine
XT.
The Cordata/Corona Data Systems laser printer interface card
is for PC/XT. Attempting to install the software on 286 or
above gives a message telling you not to, and mentioning a
286 version of the board that may or may not have ever existed.
Is the hardware actually incompatible?
Or is it a bogus test by the software?
9:44 a.m.
At 01:25 PM 11/2/04 -0500, you wrote:
On Tuesday 02 November 2004 12:43, Fred N. van Kempen
wrote:
I expect that it's due to a timing issue. The HP-IL card that HP made
for the PC has the same problem.
I strongly suspect that "PC"s are getting old enough and scarce enough
that they will shortly be valuable again.
Joe
Hi,
So.. what it boils down to is: is there any
(serious) project on doing
a "old pc systems" emulation a la SimH, which does, for example, a
pure IBM PC, PC/XT or PC/AT ?
I had a request yesterday for a 286 or earlier machine, the person says
that somethings with the serial ports changed after that and the test
equipment gets communication errors on newer machines. 
5:10 a.m.
New subject: 'Old PC' emulation ?
Hi Fred,
So.. what it boils down to is: is there any (serious)
project on doing
a "old pc systems" emulation a la SimH, which does, for example, a
pure IBM PC, PC/XT or PC/AT ?
Andy once told me (us) that in the beginning of Minix he got it almost
finished, but that there was one weird instability problem. To solve this,
he wrote an emulator that completely emulated a PC (I think back in those
days that must have been a PC/XT or something like that, he talked about
hardware without harddrive, only 2 5,25" disk drives) to figure out what
happened. To his disappointment it didn't give him a solution, as the
system behaved stable in his emulator. In the end, someone pointed him in
the direction of spurious interrupts. In the end that was the cause of the
instability.
Andy said that the code of his simulator must be around on the internet.
Perhaps you can find it and compile a version to run on Windows. Maybe
it's even on one of your disks!
Besides that, I would like to point out that current releases of Minix are
documented to run on Boochs.
Bert
10:39 a.m.
Which led me to consider the impact of this on being
able to run the
older PC software anytime in the future. Can one still install a
QNX box, or a Minix box, or an OS/2 system?
Is there good reason (considering that schematics are available, and
most, if not all, of the chips are not hard to find) not to be able to
keep real IBM PCs, PC/XTs, and PC/ATs running?
-tony
10:56 a.m.
On Wed, 3 Nov 2004, Tony Duell wrote:
If you have one, no. What is hard
to keep running is their disks,
as usual. Plus - its kinda hard to play with old system software
(such as Minix, in this case) if you're in a hotel room for many
hours, and only have a laptop (or two) with you. Which is why an
emulated environment is what I am looking for.
(and yes, I do have "working" hardware right now)
Cheers,
Fred
--
Fred N. van Kempen, DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation) Collector/Archivist
Visit the VAXlab Project at http://VAXlab.pdp11.nl/
Visit the Archives at http://www.pdp11.nl/
Email: waltje(a)pdp11.nl BUSSUM, THE NETHERLANDS / Mountain View, CA, USA
Which led me
to consider the impact of this on being able to run the
older PC software anytime in the future. Can one still install a
QNX box, or a Minix box, or an OS/2 system?
Is there good reason (considering that schematics are available, and
most, if not all, of the chips are not hard to find) not to be able to
keep real IBM PCs, PC/XTs, and PC/ATs running?
7354
days inactive
7355
days old
25 comments
17 participants
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