At 12:52 PM 4/26/01 -0400, Eric Chomko wrote: This is almost as much fun as debating eBay itself. I think if an announcement is polite and infrequent, it'll be tolerated as much on this list as say, ranting, raving, foaming at the mouth, swearing, declaring someone an idiot, demonstrating one's idiocy, or droning interminably about some obscure hardware item that only one person owns and understands. And besides, some of my items were truly RARE. Get them now for your museum! All items start at $1 and auctions end in 5 days. - John

Rules, we have no rules, only complaints. ;) People on this list do what they want, those that don't like it complain, but we have no police, and I don't think anybody has ever been booted off. That said, if you want to offer something to the list, offer it to the list. Trying to get a few more bidders on your ebay auction is typically seen as merchantile, not friendly, activity. Regardless of the above I say if its stuff people on the list will want, post it, but be a man about the criticism, because YES you are doing it for the money, not the pure pursuit of junk collecting.

An interesting point. At 04:47 PM 4/26/2001 -0400, you wrote: Executive Summary: Some people here live and die by what they sell on Ebay and here and elsewhere. Some people don't. We need both kinds of people in our community. Some people, like myself, sell things (and buy things!) on Ebay to support our collections. --Chuck ---- Original rambling message I wrote: My approach is as follows: I am, by every definition, a "caretaker" of classic computer gear. I have systems that span the gamut from very common (MicroVAX II) to relatively rare (PDP 5). I don't make a "living" off selling things either on Ebay or at a retail establishment and my real "job" is primarily engineering on modern networking gear. The activity of collecting, restoring, operating, and documenting classic computers takes time, money, energy, and motivation. Time and energy are what everyone invests and money is the thing that gets us more stuff to preserve. In order to keep things "rational" I have limited my focus to basically DEC Q-bus VAXen, PDP-8's, the -5 and a couple of PDP-11's. This constrains my overall costs as well since my entire collection can fit into a single garage if it isn't all powered up at once :-) I support my collection in three ways: 1) I invest time and energy in locating and transporting useful items. 2) I invest money in acquiring things that I can't find elsewhere. 3) I trade or sell excess parts in order to fund 1 and 2 above. Generally, selling things on Ebay is a PITA because there is packing and shipping issues in addition to checks and paying and feedback etc. However, sometimes I'll pick up something in the process of doing 1 or 2 above that is not relevant to my collection, but by selling it I can continue to fund things that _are_ relevant to my collection (the GRiD portables were exactly that situation) By selling them I am able to fund the acquisition of things that I need for my collection. Trading things on this list is sometimes effective (I've done that too) and I often give away things to other collectors things that might help them in their collection because it is a win-win situation. However there aren't many things I would trade a CBM collector for since I don't have any CBM gear, however if I pick up a C128D on a pallet of VAXen (I recently saw an Amiga 500 in this situation) then I might sell them the C128D to help offset my acquisition costs or to get something else I need. Do I advertise my auctions on this list? No. Why? Because if you're looking for these things on Ebay then you will find my auctions. Is advertising effective? You bet. When people other than myself have spread word about something I'm selling to a list it has increased bids quite a bit. Is it unethical to advertise? Hell no, its the backbone of commerce! --Chuck

"Claude.W" wrote: Why? Spamming NGs seems more reprehensible. I'm talking vintage computer items. If someone lists crap, then blast them. If it's the real deal, then let it pass. Any guarantee? No! But this is a free net. I'd rather blast someone for what they posted rather than prevent them to post in the first place. Uninteresting posted items will be naturally trimmed this way. This is savvy group that wouldn't tolerate crap. I'd love to see the day that someone gets blasted for posting crap, to only then see it go for 4 times the orginally expected price. And I hope that YOU are the first to post that sort of item! Bull! Value always equates to money. That doesn't mean the spirit of collecting need always cashed in. But if it were it be valauble, then if it were to cashed in, it should and would demonstrate the actual value. I'm a lefty that believes in the capitalistic principles. Free market is like gravity. To actaully demonstrate weight (value) there must be the ability of free fall. Do you honestly think people will "donate" computer equipment in a fair, equitable manner worthy of true collectors, historians and preservationists? That is a perfect world. That is not this world. I strive for your ideal, but realize what a market is. I do not succumb to it, rather I embrace it! The sale of one great gem opens the door for the purchase of another; as I do not have the means to own it all. I transfer wealth in a manner of parley. Why shouldn't I? You risked. Hopefully you are young. Do not hate capitalism because you invested badly once. You must stay the course for the long term. The main reason is that in the long term capitalism is the best system. I love seeing the right system go to the right owner. I will not deny a wealthy person their right. You seem to want to do so. They may lack the savvy of an owner that would better handle a key item, true. But that sort of incident does not discredit forsale-to-the-highest-bidder outright. All sellers have the right of discretion to whom they sell to. The highest bidder need not be the bottom line to the seller. EBay maybe, but their are other ways to sell. And they too should be welcome on this board, IMO. Free to good home... (works well, just check out the home) Free stuff and trades are fine. I do both. But I also want to be able to sell. Why is that taboo? There are times I don't make squat on EBay. I get satisfaction and usually a positive feedback because I got something for someone that wanted what I had more than me! No other reason! I don't make a killing or anything close to a living off of Ebay. I like having someone get what I have at a price we are both happy with. What can be wrong about that!? All classic computer items are unique or at least very limited edition. I would agree that not a single repost of the same item should be allowed on the board. Classic computer equipment does not lend itself to be spammed. Each sale is a one time arrangement. A PDP-11 memory board should allowed to be mentioned here as I can't imagine an endless supply of the exists. In summary, the spirit of classic computer collection should continue to have a donation and trading aspect, but on the same token, trading equipment for money is not taboo and should be tolerated on this board. At least the freedom to do so should be. Let the board decide what is valid and what is not. Eric Eric

At 09:45 AM 4/27/01 -0500, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: I'd argue that putting it on eBay and telling this list isn't quite as good as offering it to the list. The alternative is what? That I conduct an auction in private e-mail with a bunch of fellow chiselers who all have their own notion of a proper price? An eBay auction gives me rules, structure, anonymity for bidders, and a wider base of bidders. If I had an item that I knew was perfectly suited to a particular person's collection, I'd deal with them directly. And besides, did I mention that my Amiga items now on eBay are truly RARE? - John

On Fri, Apr 27, 2001 at 09:45:52AM -0500, Jeffrey S. Sharp (jss(a)ou.edu) wrote: Well, no -- the value (market price) of an item isn't what *one person* will pay, it's what *people* will pay ("what the market will bear"). EBay has a handful of features which almost certainly are designed to inflate prices through psychological factors, thus prices on eBay are *not* market prices. I agree that it's not eBay's fault and that it's the fault of at least two bidders in a particular auction, but what the item sells for on eBay and what the item is worth are two different things (and one is not necessarily higher than the other). -Rich -- ------------------------------ Rich Lafferty --------------------------- Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625 ------------------------- rich(a)alcor.concordia.ca ----------------------

The people who constantly sell on eBay, especially as part of their main income, wouldn't like the idea, but I think one idea would be to leave the listing system now in place intact but to have all of the actual bid amounts hidden until the end of the auction. That way everyone bids either what the maximum amount is they feel the item is worth or what they are absolutely willing to pay for it. Once t he auction ends, then the bids become viewable. The current bidding system leaves much to be desired. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757

Here's my 0.02 Asking for technical advice from the list, getting it, and turning around and selling a fixed item, to... eBay, is Most Rude. Letting the people on the list save time on searches by making small inobtrusive FA announcements: Offers a slight benefit. Offering things to the list first, waiting for responses and then resorting to eBay is Most Generous. John A. looks like a balancing act. see: "Ethics"

"Jeffrey S. Sharp" wrote: As the saying goes, those of you who wait until the last minute to bid will always get beat out by those of us who wait until the last *second*.

I know the feeling - my dialup decides to disconnect me from the server about the same time your cable modem resyncs.

Carlos Murillo wrote: The short answer is yes. The DNF (Discuss Newest Features) board has a sniping contest at 22:22:22 PDT Ebay time and the highest I've seen is 39 posts in that one second. And to say again, sniping only works against bidders who either do not know or are not willing to bid what an item might be worth. I think that "stategy" you are talking about is just ignorance of the system.

On Wednesday, May 2, 2001, at 11:46 AM, Mike Ford wrote: The lack of needing to buy everything in lots to get the one item you want and the long viewing window is one thing I like about eBay auctions. I myself have recently resorted to using one of the sniping services so I don't actually have to remember to log on in time for a last moment bid. I never got into the live auction scene because of the need a lot of times to buy stuff I didn't want in order to get the thing I did. Jeff

"Jeffrey S. Sharp" wrote: And that can be a good or bad thing. I've been done and have done that to others. Bad and good, respectively. And waiting 30 seconds on a hot item may just make the winner pay more when you under bid their high bid, which is hidden. Its just like democracy and what Churchill said about it, "it's a lousy system, but until someone comes up with a better one, it's the best one that we've have." Eric

"Wayne M. Smith" wrote: I used to be an impluse buyer as well. As a coin collector I learned to buy only the stuff that I would regret NOT getting, rather than buying everything that seemed interesting. I streamline all my eBay purchases to "must haves." Doesn't ALWAYS work but I have elminated a lot of excess that way. Eric

The ebay URL's I've posted here on occasion have been items I've run across that I think other's might be interested in that may not appear that often, such as the Tandy CM-1, monitor I posted a couple of weeks ago. CM-1's have always been difficult to get a hold of and quite desirable for those with a graphics card that supports it. I certainly wouldn't post a reference to every PC-XT or Mac II that gets put up for sale on there, but I look at it as trying to help people out, just like similar posts for anywhere else that people find classic computer stuff. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757

I don't mind seeing the announcement, but if I and I have was going to sell something on ebay or any other auction site, I would offer it to the group first for a charge if I have money invested in it and let them know that I will be putting it afterwards at what ever dot com. I don't have a problem with it. Bill Claussen elecdata1 "Clint Wolff (VAX collector)" wrote:

At 05:47 PM 4/26/01 -0600, you wrote: I personally don't object to such ads and actually find them useful. Of course, I prefer succint ads with no html. As for the "dreaded line" above, well, you can always set up a filter based on it, right? Carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo(a)nospammers.ieee.org

I find it distastefull to sell in this fashion to your friends, and that is how I see the people on this list.

Quoting Mike Ford <mikeford(a)socal.rr.com>om>: I don't know; that's a gray area. I have had a friend bid and win on an auction (not a classiccmp item), and he was completely satisfied. But then again that was only one guy, so not even I'm convinced. Like I have said before, I would offer something to the list before I would sell it on eBay. Not that I have much to offer, but you never know, I might just run across the motherlode someday. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss(a)ou.edu

Whoodoggie! Did I finally get a find, or what? Went to the local auction house (1st of the season) and they'd advertised a lot of Amateur (Ham) radio equipment (having gotten my license over the winter, and upgraded it in March, I was looking for my first HF rig - AB8KK if anyone's wondering...) and I got: Lotsa ham stuff, inc. 2 antennas & an Icom 745 (w/almost all the fixin's) - it's over 10 years old, and microprocessor controlled - that's why I mentioned it... (and a PackRatt TNC - heard it's a nice rig) They also had some apple stuff there, where I piced up an extra IIci for spares, and I rescued an Apple //gs (it's totally bare, tho, so it's not really useful to me as is) and a 3.5" and 5.25" floppy drive... But that's not the best of it: I have been looking for a Heathkit 3400 Microprocessor trainer for *years* and there was one there -- 6808 uP (6800 w/internal timer, same instruction set), 512 bytes RAM (a pair of 2114's - amazingly, they still work), 1K ROM, and (6) 7-segment LED's for primary program output... *and it works!* [1] I also got Heathkit digital trainer (3100, methinks?) and an HP trainer (with probe, extra display, etc.) Don't remember the # on that - I'll check it out more when I get home... $3.00USD each. Also, a *lot* of HeathKit Continuing Education series books (Most, if not all, still with Exam Papers) so that's some fun readin'... Anywho, I (unforch) didn't get any dox with the trainer (not that it's rocket science or anything...) but there's precious little info on the 'Net (amazingly) so I don't know where the I/O memory mapping is for the LED's & whatnot... Anyone out there have any info? (Just a basic memory map would be great!) Oh, and my 4-year-old thinks that trainer is a *whole lot cooler* than our Win98 box - Takes after the old man, that one does! ;-) Anywho, just thought I'd brag a little, and TIA for any help on it... I wanna write a couple little ditties for it, and interface some A/D & D/A projects to it... [1] 1 of the "binary output LED's" is burned out - no big deal, and everything else seems to work fine... Thanks, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice.

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On Fri, 27 Apr 2001, Mike Ford wrote: Seconded. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org