22 Jun
2007
22 Jun
'07
1:49 p.m.
My taste for the last several years is to play around with
1: dedicated industrial logic (e.g. elevator and machine controllers)
2: Analog computers
3: Electromechanical stuff, especially if somewhat programmable
Now, none of the above are things with video screens and
keyboards, and in most cases they don't even have readily
recognized "instruction sets", but they all do computing in a
pre-Von-Neumann sense.
I heavily, heavily try to stay away from stuff with keyboards
and video screens and, even worse, anything with an
"operating system" of any sort! I don't want to have anything
to do with installing software. I want to solder tube sockets,
read meters, turn knobs, and watch scope traces.
Tim.
22 Jun
22 Jun
4:05 p.m.
On 22/06/07, Tim Shoppa <tshoppa at wmata.com> wrote:
My taste for the last several years is to play around
with
1: dedicated industrial logic (e.g. elevator and machine controllers)
2: Analog computers
3: Electromechanical stuff, especially if somewhat programmable
Now, none of the above are things with video screens and
keyboards, and in most cases they don't even have readily
recognized "instruction sets", but they all do computing in a
pre-Von-Neumann sense.
Well, true, but they're not really general-purpose computers, as I
specified. I know there's all sorts of weirdness once you leave the
world of the desktop (or server), but it's not anything I can really
relate to or get interested in myself.
I heavily, heavily try to stay away from stuff with
keyboards
and video screens and, even worse, anything with an
"operating system" of any sort! I don't want to have anything
to do with installing software.
Uhuh? So how did you post that message then? Whistle modem tones down
a phone line? :?)
--
Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
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Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508
23 Jun
23 Jun
5:15 a.m.
"Liam Proven" <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:
On 22/06/07, Tim Shoppa <tshoppa at wmata.com>
wrote:
I occasionally get worried about that sort of attitude. I understand
wanting to relate to what we collect. I understand that not everyone
has the same background as I do in process and industrial control.
But... I feel that if collectors/museums concentrate only on their
narrow definition of "computer", they will neglect all the stuff
that led to computers. Right now, because a lot of this stuff was
designed with 50 to 100 year lifespans (maybe not designed intentionally
but that's what it's working out to), much of it is still in service,
but I can see just a few years from now that a lot of it will be gone.
Some of the more interesting military special-purpose computers
are being preserved (e.g. Norden bombsights) along with historical
context, but almost nothing else is.
Tim.
My taste for the last several years is to play
around with
1: dedicated industrial logic (e.g. elevator and machine controllers)
2: Analog computers
3: Electromechanical stuff, especially if somewhat programmable
Now, none of the above are things with video screens and
keyboards, and in most cases they don't even have readily
recognized "instruction sets", but they all do computing in a
pre-Von-Neumann sense.
Well, true, but they're not really general-purpose computers, as I
specified. I know there's all sorts of weirdness once you leave the
world of the desktop (or server), but it's not anything I can really
relate to or get interested in myself. 
9:43 a.m.
On 23 Jun 2007 at 8:15, Tim Shoppa wrote:
But... I feel that if collectors/museums concentrate
only on their
narrow definition of "computer", they will neglect all the stuff
that led to computers. Right now, because a lot of this stuff was
designed with 50 to 100 year lifespans (maybe not designed intentionally
but that's what it's working out to), much of it is still in service,
but I can see just a few years from now that a lot of it will be gone.
Some of the more interesting military special-purpose computers
are being preserved (e.g. Norden bombsights) along with historical
context, but almost nothing else is.
Tim, I understand what you're saying and completely agree. My first
paying job was with pre-computer industrial process control using not
only electronic, but pneumatic and hydraulic systems. While not a
result of stored-program digital computers, the computation performed
by mechanical systems is certainly worthy of study. I believe that
earlier issues of the IEEE Annals have given this aspect of
computation some coverage.
In a way, the old systems had a beautiful simplicity--no one tried to
add Windows or an MP3 player or a camera to them. They were made for
a purpose and performed their function very well and reliably for
many years.
Cheers,
Chuck
2:37 p.m.
On Jun 23, 2007, at 8:15 AM, Tim Shoppa wrote:
Well this is clearly a problem. I consider myself to be a person
having pretty general experience with technology, and I've never even
heard of this stuff...but it sounds very interesting to me. Perhaps
what is needed is a way to "get the word out". Pictures,
descriptions, educational materials...YOU know about this stuff, but
who else does? I'd love to learn about it.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
Well, true,
but they're not really general-purpose computers, as I
specified. I know there's all sorts of weirdness once you leave the
world of the desktop (or server), but it's not anything I can really
relate to or get interested in myself.
I occasionally get worried about that sort of attitude. I understand
wanting to relate to what we collect. I understand that not everyone
has the same background as I do in process and industrial control.
But... I feel that if collectors/museums concentrate only on their
narrow definition of "computer", they will neglect all the stuff
that led to computers. Right now, because a lot of this stuff was
designed with 50 to 100 year lifespans (maybe not designed
intentionally
but that's what it's working out to), much of it is still in service,
but I can see just a few years from now that a lot of it will be gone.
Some of the more interesting military special-purpose computers
are being preserved (e.g. Norden bombsights) along with historical
context, but almost nothing else is. 
3:57 p.m.
Well this is clearly a problem. I consider myself
to be a person
having pretty general experience with technology, and I've never even
heard of this stuff...but it sounds very interesting to me. Perhaps
what is needed is a way to "get the word out". Pictures,
descriptions, educational materials...YOU know about this stuff, but
who else does? I'd love to learn about it.
Contact one of the elevator installers and see if they would sell you
an old relay control system, ripped out of a building undergoing a
rebuild.
--
Will
4:26 p.m.
Well this is clearly a problem. I consider
myself to be a person
having pretty general experience with technology,
and I've never even
heard of this stuff...but it sounds very
interesting to me. Perhaps
what is needed is a way to "get the word out".
Pictures,
descriptions, educational materials...
I know, someone start a website named odd-computers.
com. It's probably still available if you hurry! LOL
LOL LOL
____________________________________________________________________________________
Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos
& more.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC
24 Jun
24 Jun
11:28 a.m.
On Jun 23, 2007, at 6:57 PM, William Donzelli wrote:
That's an interesting idea. How physically massive is such a
system likely to be?
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
Well this
is clearly a problem. I consider myself to be a person
having pretty general experience with technology, and I've never even
heard of this stuff...but it sounds very interesting to me. Perhaps
what is needed is a way to "get the word out". Pictures,
descriptions, educational materials...YOU know about this stuff, but
who else does? I'd love to learn about it.
Contact one of the elevator installers and see if they would sell you
an old relay control system, ripped out of a building undergoing a
rebuild. 
12:40 p.m.
On Sunday 24 June 2007 14:28, Dave McGuire wrote:
On Jun 23, 2007, at 6:57 PM, William Donzelli wrote:
That's an interesting idea. How physically massive is such a
system likely to be?
It depends on the controller.
Ones I've seen have ranged from about 30"L x 30"W x 60"H, to 8'L x
3'W x
8'H.
The "power supply" and "I/O device" are usually a bit bigger. :)
(For those that don't know, elevators usually use a DC motor, and at
least for ones that are old enough to use relay-driven controllers, use
a AC/DC motor-generator set or rotary converter to produce the power.)
Pat
--
Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
Well
this is clearly a problem. I consider myself to be a
person having pretty general experience with technology, and I've
never even heard of this stuff...but it sounds very interesting to
me. Perhaps what is needed is a way to "get the word out".
Pictures, descriptions, educational materials...YOU know about
this stuff, but who else does? I'd love to learn about it.
Contact one of the elevator installers and see if they would sell
you an old relay control system, ripped out of a building
undergoing a rebuild.
1:15 p.m.
That's an interesting idea. How physically
massive is such a
system likely to be?
As Patrick pointed out, they vary - complexity and age are the variables.
On the last day of RCS/RI in the old mill, we finally managed to get
into the old elevator control shack. It looked like it was from 1930
or so. Basically, a panel the size of a house door controlled a simple
four floor, mostly-automatic, non-motorized-door, freight elevator. Of
course, the relays were not the little ice cubes we are familar with,
but really rather large open frame things. Serious overkill on soze,
but not as bad as the railroad relays.
--
Will
2:18 p.m.
On Sun, 2007-06-24 at 16:15 -0400, William Donzelli wrote:
I used to fit microwave links onto the tops of tall multi-storey
buildings. The lift controllers I saw tended to run from a small rack
the size of a MicroVAX 3300, up to several wardrobe-size racks full of
relays.
Gordon
That's
an interesting idea. How physically massive is such a
system likely to be?
As Patrick pointed out, they vary - complexity and age are the variables.
On the last day of RCS/RI in the old mill, we finally managed to get
into the old elevator control shack. It looked like it was from 1930
or so. Basically, a panel the size of a house door controlled a simple
four floor, mostly-automatic, non-motorized-door, freight elevator. Of
course, the relays were not the little ice cubes we are familar with,
but really rather large open frame things. Serious overkill on soze,
but not as bad as the railroad relays.
4:03 p.m.
On 24 Jun 2007 at 22:18, Gordon JC Pearce wrote:
I used to fit microwave links onto the tops of tall
multi-storey
buildings. The lift controllers I saw tended to run from a small rack
the size of a MicroVAX 3300, up to several wardrobe-size racks full of
relays.
Let's not forget interesting control systems in other devices, such
as jukeboxes (Seeburg used core memory, I believe), scoreboards and
combination actions in pipe organs.
Cheers,
Chuck
6:07 p.m.
On Sunday 24 June 2007 19:03, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 24 Jun 2007 at 22:18, Gordon JC Pearce wrote:
I happened to wander into a church in Manhattan one time several years back
(probably around 1976 or 1977 I'm guessing) and heard what at first I thought
was the trains running underneath Park Avenue, though that also struck me as
being pretty unlikely. Turned out they were installing a new organ "system",
and what I'd heard was them testing the 32' pedal stops!
There were two consoles, one up front by the altar and one up in the choir
loft, each of which ran signals over a single coaxial cable to a roomful of
equipment that was hidden away well. Sounds were generated by a combination
of pipes for some voices, and electronics for others. And yes, it did use
core memory for storing the presets on each combination piston. :-)
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
I used to fit microwave links onto the tops of
tall multi-storey
buildings. The lift controllers I saw tended to run from a small rack
the size of a MicroVAX 3300, up to several wardrobe-size racks full of
relays.
Let's not forget interesting control systems in other devices, such
as jukeboxes (Seeburg used core memory, I believe), scoreboards and
combination actions in pipe organs. 
7:14 p.m.
Roy J. Tellason wrote:
I happened to wander into a church in Manhattan one
time several years back
(probably around 1976 or 1977 I'm guessing) and heard what at first I thought
was the trains running underneath Park Avenue, though that also struck me as
being pretty unlikely. Turned out they were installing a new organ "system",
and what I'd heard was them testing the 32' pedal stops!
Why unlikely? I have a buddy on the East Side, and I've heard the Lex
trains going by from his second floor apartment. They're not far
underground. Only a few feet.
Peace... Sridhar
8:27 p.m.
On Sunday 24 June 2007 22:14, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
Roy J. Tellason wrote:
I found a fairly comprehensive site on the subway system a while back that
surprised me in many ways, full of all sorts of data, historical stuff,
etc. and realized that. But this wasn't the subway, it was the commuter
trains, which are somewhat further down.
It was also quite a large church, and fairly substantial, and set back from
the street a bit (St. Ignatius, if you're curious, at Park & 76th, if I'm
remembering right).
You couldn't ordinarily hear those trains while standing out on Park Ave., the
vents being in the middle of the street in that divider they have there.
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
I happened to wander into a church in Manhattan
one time several years
back (probably around 1976 or 1977 I'm guessing) and heard what at first
I thought was the trains running underneath Park Avenue, though that
also struck me as being pretty unlikely. Turned out they were installing
a new organ "system", and what I'd heard was them testing the 32'
pedal
stops!
Why unlikely? I have a buddy on the East Side, and I've heard the Lex
trains going by from his second floor apartment. They're not far
underground. Only a few feet. 
25 Jun
25 Jun
1:31 p.m.
On 24 Jun 2007 at 22:18, Gordon JC Pearce wrote:
<mumble> years ago, I rescued much of the control electronics from some
kind of X-ray diffraction instruemnt. The parts I really wanted (and got)
were the paper tape punch and reader and the printer, but I grabbed the
electroncis units too.
The punch and reader are the mechansims from a Friden Flexowriter,
mounted on 19" rack pneals, with their own drive motors hehind. The
printer is a Comptometer adding machine (I am not sure if any mods were
done to it) with solenoids mounted over the key levers.
The control electroncis is all discrete transsitors on plug-in PCBs.
There are a couple of rows of DM160 valves [1] used as status
indicators. And one of the units has a plugboard on the front to
configure the instrument.
[1] I am not sure what the US equivalent is. It's a little glass envelope
about 1.25" long by .25" diameter. It has 4 connections, 2 of them are
the ends of a 1.1V directly-heated cathode, one is a target (run at about
+30V wrt cathode, the last is the control grid. With 0V bias on the grid
you get a bright green glow from the target (and thus from the side of
the valve), with -3V bias, it's cut off, and dark. They wrre used as
logic status indicators before there were LEDs.
-tony
I used to fit microwave links onto the tops of
tall multi-storey
buildings. The lift controllers I saw tended to run from a small rack
the size of a MicroVAX 3300, up to several wardrobe-size racks full of
relays.
Let's not forget interesting control systems in other devices, such
as jukeboxes (Seeburg used core memory, I believe), scoreboards and
combination actions in pipe organs.
23 Jun
23 Jun
5:08 p.m.
Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
My main resources have been my day job (where else do you get hands-
on experience on a $10Billion peripheral made out of largely relay logic?),
the community there and at other properties (a community which is
REMARKABLY not-web-based), and books from the 30's/40's/50's about
digital logic using relays, tubes, cryotrons, etc.
You are right, remarkably little of this is on the web.
Tim.
Tim Shoppa
wrote:
[Special-purpose industrial controllers from the past 100 years]
but that's what it's working out to), much of it is still in service,
but I can see just a few years from now that a lot of it will be gone.
Some of the more interesting military special-purpose computers
are being preserved (e.g. Norden bombsights) along with historical
context, but almost nothing else is.
Well this is clearly a problem. I consider myself to be a person
having pretty general experience with technology, and I've never even
heard of this stuff...but it sounds very interesting to me. Perhaps
what is needed is a way to "get the word out". Pictures,
descriptions, educational materials...YOU know about this stuff, but
who else does? I'd love to learn about it.
3:50 p.m.
But... I feel that if collectors/museums concentrate
only on their
narrow definition of "computer", they will neglect all the stuff
that led to computers.
There is a good side to this and a bad side. If any museum tries to
cover too much ground in their collection policy, they tend not to do
a good job
Some of the more interesting military special-purpose
computers
are being preserved (e.g. Norden bombsights) along with historical
context, but almost nothing else is.
This is a good point. When it comes to mechanical computation, the
pinnacle of design is in the Naval fire control computers, like the
Arma Mark 1A. Providing that the ships are cared for (and some really
are), these machines can pretty much show just what mechanical
computation is all about, in a most proper context. Many of the ships
are essentially safe until the end of time, so as long as someone
takes care of the machines inside, the knowledge of mechanical
computing is very safe.
The same is not true, to my knowledge, for industrial controls. Is
there a community, however small, of collectors and historians? I
certainly would like to know. I suppose there is some bleed thru from
other disciplines - the railroad history guys do well with knowledge
of interlocks and CTC, for example.
At least one of the great neglected historic fields - the phone
company - is starting to be dealt with by the collectors and museums*.
It is amazing just how much pre-computer history came from Ma Bell,
and until just a couple of years ago, was completely ignored.
*On sad note, the little phone museum in Abeliene, KS closed its doors
recently, due to money issues.
--
Will
6:42 p.m.
On Jun 22, 2007, at 4:49 PM, Tim Shoppa wrote:
...
2: Analog computers
...
I heavily, heavily try to stay away from stuff with
keyboards
and video screens and, even worse, anything with an
"operating system" of any sort! I don't want to have anything
to do with installing software. I want to solder tube sockets,
read meters, turn knobs, and watch scope traces.
This is far from "classic", but have you seen the AD538 from
Analog Devices?
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
6389
days inactive
6392
days old
18 comments
12 participants
participants (12)
-
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
cclist＠sydex.com -
chrism3667＠yahoo.com -
gordon＠gjcp.net -
lproven＠gmail.com -
mcguire＠neurotica.com -
pat＠computer-refuge.org -
ploopster＠gmail.com -
rtellason＠verizon.net -
shoppa_classiccmp＠trailing-edge.com -
tshoppa＠wmata.com -
wdonzelli＠gmail.com