I have a keyboard for one of these, but it doesn't work (anymore). I found out the hard way about 5 years ago that when you plug these into a regular XT, all the magic smoke escapes from the keyboard. If anyone is interested, I still have it (TI LOW PROFILE KEYBOARD P/N 2230528-0001). It's complete except for the missing smoke and free for the cost of shipping also. Bill Washington, PA

This has always been a mystery to me, since I bought mine. Everyone always talks about how heavy, and "built like a tank" these computers are. I don't think mine is that heavy, maybe because I don't have dual full height drives? I was expecting the case to be made from think steel, but mine is some sort of plastic (composite?). That said, it is currently one of my favorite computers :-) Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA

Duh, I was thinking of the model 60 with the steel case and the full height ESDI hard drives. It has a carrying handle at the top and a warning that it is over 45 kg. Edwin

Duh, I was thinking of the model 60 with the steel case and the full height ESDI hard drives. It has a carrying handle at the top and a warning that it is over 45 kg. Edwin

18+KG 40+lbs :-) 45+kg would fall through the floor :-) Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA

Well, paranoid is a bit strong, however they do seem to show a tendency to regard anything that has A) Originated elsewhere or B) Not been in use in the US for 100 years or more As "unAmerican". Apart from it's local 'mods', like the US mile, US ton, US gallon - we used the slightly larger, Genuine, Unadulterated Imperial measures, 5,280 ft or 1,760 yards to the mile, and 2,240 pounds to the ton - the US system is what the British left them in the first place.

What makes the transition to metric units more complicated is the unhandiness of some of the units, both physically and in terms of the references to them. For example ... a gallon is a pretty handy unit, though somewhat large, but a quart is pretty handy. The metric unit close to that is the liter, which is also a handy unit, though the next unit up is what? ... a decaliter? ... that's a mite large, eh? Likewise, handy units of measure, e.g. inch, foot, yard, etc, are not so common in the metric system.. You're always dealing with a milli-this or a kilo-that and that often makes it hard to visualize, and, consequently, communicate, not to mention, understand, what's being described. Once you've gotten used to the new units it's not so bad, but making the transition is what folks seem to resist. When you talk about how big something is, in the English system, you're talking feet and inches. When you say 44 cm, not everybody can immediately envision what you mean, but when you say "foot," since almost everybody's got one or two, they have a rough idea. Likewise, a gram, which is a reasonable measure for something really expensive, like cocaine, gets to be pretty unwieldy when you're talking about how much flour goes into a loaf of bread. In Germany, I remember dealing with a pound (half a kg) which, at 500 g is not far off the English pound (454 g). The fact that the Germans use a "Pfund" as a handy unit suggests that the metric units do leave something to be desired. After all it's not easy to grasp what a gigasecond is, nor is it useful to time events in microfortnights. I have to agree with the remarks about the cup, teaspoon, etc, but, again, everybody has a notion of how much that is, and anyone who's seen Justin Wilson's cooking program on PBS knows how easy it is to approximate that without any measuring instruments at all. On the other hand, how much baking soda is 13.5 g or how much milk is 100 ml? (...see how we're having to deal with large numbers of small units?...) The struggle is getting past the period of adjustment. In reality, the term "mile" refers to the 1000 paces of a marching army, so it's a thousand of something just as the kilometer is. Evenutally folks will figure out that a quarter teaspoon (about the smallest amount one's asked to measure when cooking) is about a cc, (maybe) and a tablespoon is really pretty close to some number (12 ?) of ml. Then, if a quart is 946 ml, then a cup must be on the order of 250 ml. Not precisely, but sort-of. In the meantime, here we are ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" <foo(a)siconic.com> To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 9:08 AM Subject: Re: New here :-)

^^^ That's a tad more than a smidgin isn't it? -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb(a)dial.pipex.com The future was never like this!

Actually, I think they are all precisely defined in terms of scruples, aren't they?

And to bring this boack on topic: there are three SCRUPLES in a DRAM

^^^ That's a tad more than a smidgin isn't it? -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb(a)dial.pipex.com The future was never like this!

That's exactly one of the reasons I so dislike the metric system. It seems to go from units that are too small to units that are too big. Plus, they don't mean a whole lot to me, which I admit is a matter of adjustment. Since I have been raised with American measurements, I don't think I would ever totally become accustomed to the metric system at the same level.

Well, maybe it would work better, but I don't recall SI units being any more easy to visualize than the "normal" metrics. It's still easier, IMHO, to envision an inch as the width of a man's thumb, or a foot as what it sounds like, or a cubit as the length from the tip of the middle finger to the point of the elbow than it is to relate to a meter, which was originally a totally arbitrary length, and the various decimal portions thereof. It's easier to think of a mile, the distance covered by a thousand left footprints of a marching army, than to contemplate a thousand meters (whatever that is) in spite of the fact I know, for sure, that the meter is 39.37 of those thumb-widths, or finger-segment lengths, or whatever, and, by simple virtue of its name, I can easily envison roughly what's meant when someone says to use a cup of tomato sauce, since I drink my coffee from a cup, even though the cup I use holds 16 fl. oz. I wouldn't pretend that the English systems of measures is "better" in any sense, but I do believe that since it's based on things everyday people deal with every day, it's a bit easier to relate to, hence use for everyday things. It just makes more sense to visualize one of something I see every day, than to contemplate so many milli-this's or kilo-that's. It's just human, and it's human nature that resists the conversion to metric units. Dick

Well, maybe it would work better, but I don't recall SI units being any more easy to visualize than the "normal" metrics.

On Mon, 5 Mar 2001, Geoff Roberts wrote: If you think all that's bad, I still haven't figured out the measurements for cooking...like how many tablespoons in a cup, and how many cups in a quart and all that nonsense. Who came up with this crap anyway? If I had my druthers, I'd gladly switch to metric for everything. American units are stupid, archaic and illogical. Call me a Communist. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org

Hopefully this is meant humorously. The second _is_ a metric unit of time, even though minutes/hours/etc are not reckoned in decimal intervals.

Yep, I was kidding (though I am a fan of traditional American weights and measures.) Quick question -- when you say that the second is a metric unit of time, doesn't that just mean some metric governing body has adopted it as an official unit of time, even though it's non-conforming? Just out of curiosity, does anyone know if there ever was an attempt to apply the metric system to time? -- Tony

At 08:08 AM 3/5/2001 -0800, you wrote: Yeah, let's get rid of all those stupid non-metric measurements. Especially those pesky units of time. I mean, what idiot came up with "seconds", "minutes" and "hours", anyway? The "hours" even repeat twice every "day" -- how stupid is that! We need a nice metric time measurement to help us get out of our silly American technological rut and encourage more Continental innovations like EuroDisney... :-) Then again, maybe DEC had it right all along -- KiloCoreTicks forever! -- Tony

switching, as long as we still use Imperial for certain things ( I REFUSE to go 100 Kilometers per hour, I will always go 60 MPH, and I'll run two miles

Metric is awful for medium sized measurements, though. There isn't a nice replacement for the "Foot" (Decimeter? I don't think so... besides I think it's a measuring instrument) And the cc is an awkward unit for measuring medium sized volumes. Add 600cc of water to your brownie mix? What's wrong with two cups? Metric is fine for many measurements and I don't care about switching, as long as we still use Imperial for certain things ( I REFUSE to go 100 Kilometers per hour, I will always go 60 MPH, and I'll run two miles a day though two kilometers would be easier :)

Yes, they're archaic. They've been with us for a long time, hence it's terribly difficult for us to let go of them. The ones hardest to give up are those that are the most convenient. It's much easier for me to consider a "cup" of water than to think of it as 236.5 ml, or even rounding up to 250 ml. When you go to the corner pub for a mug of beer, you know about how much beer that is. You know that if your friend has had three glasses of beer, he's probably not safe driving his car, though you probably believe that if you've had three mugs of beer, you're not unable to walk.

from a "2,5 dl". That's the measurement, not the container.

from their loneliness in the modern world? Every country has had its own odd

I just keep an old Toshiba laptop (old = Pentium 120 :) connected to the internet in my kitchen. Granted, I can't recalibrate the temperature in my oven but I can use it to order groceries, and I could use it to look up the occasional recipe, but since I'm such a phenomenal cook I don't use it for that ;)

Hello Edwin! "Edwin P. Groot" wrote: I have a 2 bedroom apt, that is way too full with computer "junk". That is one of the reasons I want to..... what's a good word, maybe refine?, my collocation. This has always been a mystery to me, since I bought mine. Everyone always talks about how heavy, and "built like a tank" these computers are. I don't think mine is that heavy, maybe because I don't have dual full height drives? I was expecting the case to be made from think steel, but mine is some sort of plastic (composite?). That said, it is currently one of my favorite computers :-) Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA

On 03-Mar-2001 Lawrence Walker wrote: PCjr had a metal case? Why do I remember them being plastic w/ spray-on metal shield? I took ours apart very often, for kicks. But then, that was 15 years ago. Memory. going.

I assume you mean the PSU 'brick' and that you have the PSU card (it has the power switch on it, so if you have that, you have the card) in the machine. In which case, Make one :-). It's just a plain 17V transformer, at about 3A. The outside 2 pins on the connector go to the ends of the secondary winding, the centre pin goes to mains earth. It is not a centre-tapped transformer (or at least, the one I built for my machine isn't and a centre-tapped transformer would make no sense at all with the circuit of the PSU board in the TechRef). In other words, something like this : 500mA fuse To PCjr PSU connector L o-------------O\O-----------------)||(----------------< )||( 120V )||( 17V +------< )||( | N o---------------------------------)||(---------)------< | E o----------------------------------------------+ Use a 50VA (or so) transformer, and add a fuse in series with one side of the secondary if you like (I did) -tony

Better check that model number again. The 386 8580's (and the less expensive 286 8560 look-a-like) are heavy-guage steel full- tower boxes with pull-out metal floor stand and a steel fold-up handle which must have been put on for weight-lifting exercise, since no normal strength person would carry it more than 20 yards without resting. Most 80s also came with 2 large ESDI HDs which must weigh between 10-15lbs. each and a 1/2 ht. 14.4 FDD. I have 2 of them and a 60 among my IBM collection. Hmm. In walking around clunking my IBMs, only my 8557 and 8590 came up non-metal. Even the PCjr, PS/1s and Ambra's were metal cased. I suspect you have an 8590 desktop which is a nice MCA machine with a SCSI bus. ciao larry Reply to: lgwalker(a)look.ca

That set me scurrying for my Mueller. Both my 80s are 111 models. Mueller informs me that the 80s all weigh 45.3 lbs and the 60 weighs 47 lbs. He also intimates that the 161 has SCSI HDDs. My first box, which I had to lug 2 blocks to get a cab, still makes me think more like 100 lbs. Since then I've been able to scratch parts of my back I never could before. If you're sure the case is actually plastic and more so that of the 2 model 60s there was also a plastic cased one, this is something the MCA Mafia MUST learn about. Possibly a european model produced to make North-Americans be perceived as weak and effete. (Hee-Hee, titter-titter, "can't lift it".) BTW you aren't a wrestler or weight-lifter by any chance are you ?

Better check that model number again. The 386 8580's (and the less expensive 286 8560 look-a-like) are heavy-guage steel full- tower boxes with pull-out metal floor stand and a steel fold-up handle which must have been put on for weight-lifting exercise, since no normal strength person would carry it more than 20 yards without resting. Most 80s also came with 2 large ESDI HDs which must weigh between 10-15lbs. each and a 1/2 ht. 14.4 FDD. I have 2 of them and a 60 among my IBM collection. Hmm. In walking around clunking my IBMs, only my 8557 and 8590 came up non-metal. Even the PCjr, PS/1s and Ambra's were metal cased. I suspect you have an 8590 desktop which is a nice MCA machine with a SCSI bus. ciao larry Reply to: lgwalker(a)look.ca

Oh, and the ducted air channels inside. wheee!

Any idea what the composite material *is* ? While some may consider it sacrelige, I'd love to build up a modern PC inside that case, but I'd need to do some case mods first... :/

Guys, Why don't you see if you can find a Reply Powerboard? Thats what I have in mine. It is a 486 class replacement Planer (motherboard in IBM). I am running a Kingston Turbochip in it, with the dumb little fan removed, and a heatsink glued on. It also has 32 bit Microchannel slots, no just 16s. Does the 80 have 32s from the factory? I know the 60 didn't.

These boards are on Ebay once ina while, although usually already in an 80 :-)

Thats out of date. Neointeractive didn't even have the drivers up anymore last I checked.

Any idea what the composite material *is* ? While some may consider it sacrelige, I'd love to build up a modern PC inside that case, but I'd need to do some case mods first... :/

Before you all wince, don't worry. I'm all talk. By the time I'll have the money and time to do this, I wont have the interest ;)

I swapped the metal handle from the "parts machine" 60 to my 80, so now my 80 has a metal handle instead of the composite handle it originally came with. My 80s case was slightly broken, but I fixed it. One of the mounting locations for the power supply was broken. I used JB Weld to re-attach it. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Lawrence Walker wrote: > > Oops again. I'm embarassed. Never take it for granted that you > know your own equipment. After numerous years of banging my > knee on my PS/2 8580, Chad's msg. piqued me enough to actually > take off the side (and clean it at the same time). Sure enough it is > some sort of composite material, altho it must be close to the > weight of sheet metal. Ditto for the 8560. And of course the PCjr. > Betrayed by IBM ;^ ( . And My spare 80 even has a crack in it's > side panel to prove it. Treachorous corporations !! Take that. Ouch. > The damn handle is indeed steel. > > larry