6 Jan
2007
6 Jan
'07
12:51 p.m.
I picked up another Mac yesterday--a beige 300 Mhz G3 with 256MB,
and a 15 GB hard disk. It's also got a USB adapter plugged into one
of the PCI slots. It's running OS 9.something. Set me back $20.
Were Zip drives a standard part of these things?
On a side-by-side with a Win2K P1 225MHz system with the same amount
of memory, I think the WIndoze box has snappier response and has
better video.
For you Mac addicts, what do you think should be my next step in
getting the most out of this box?
I don't care for the Mac monitor that came with it--has anyone tried
hooking up a fixed-frequency SOG workstation monitor to it? I've got
a nice HP/Sony model that might be a candidate.
Cheers,
Chuck
6 Jan
6 Jan
3:26 p.m.
At 9:51 AM -0800 1/6/07, Chuck Guzis wrote:
I picked up another Mac yesterday--a beige 300 Mhz G3
with 256MB,
and a 15 GB hard disk. It's also got a USB adapter plugged into one
of the PCI slots. It's running OS 9.something. Set me back $20.
Were Zip drives a standard part of these things?
That's probably about the model before my G4/450 AGP. If so a Zip
drive could have been standard. Does it have a faceplate that
matches the rest of the system?
On a side-by-side with a Win2K P1 225MHz system with
the same amount
of memory, I think the WIndoze box has snappier response and has
better video.
If this is the case there might be some sort of software problem with
that Mac. A badly configured Mac could very well be having issues,
but a well configured one should seem pretty snappy. Might also need
the HD defragged. Though Mac OS 9 can be pretty sluggish on a G3.
For you Mac addicts, what do you think should be my
next step in
getting the most out of this box?
You could run Mac OS X on it, but that would likely be painful,
especially with only 256MB. If you have the needed disks, I'd
consider wiping the drive and putting either Mac OS 8.6 or 9.2 on
there. Of course if you want to be able to surf from this system,
Mac OS X is pretty much a requirement. There is no modern web
browser for Mac OS 9.
I don't care for the Mac monitor that came with
it--has anyone tried
hooking up a fixed-frequency SOG workstation monitor to it? I've got
a nice HP/Sony model that might be a candidate.
Possibly, but I have my doubts. How hard would it be to hook that
monitor up to a PC? That's about how hard it will be to hook it up
to the Mac.
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
4:21 p.m.
On 6 Jan 2007 at 12:26, Zane H. Healy wrote:
That's probably about the model before my G4/450
AGP. If so a Zip
drive could have been standard. Does it have a faceplate that
matches the rest of the system?
Yup--and the little tag on the back mentions the Zip drive, now that
I have my near-see glasses on. This one also has 1MB cache and some
sort of AV card in it.
I understand that low-profile 256MB SIMMs can be installed, but that
they need to be a special type, not the usual PC133 type. Is this
true--and any guidelines to make sure that I'm picking up the right
flavor?
I found a version of Mozilla 1.3.1 that runs on it at
http://www.wamcom.org. It seems to be adequate for casual browsing.
I've used fixed-frequency WS monitors on PCs since the first 19"
Daisy that I obtained, around 1988. It's only lately that I've begun
using LCD monitors. I was concerned that there might be something
REALLY funny about Mac video.
(OT: Does anyone need the manual for the big Daisy monitor (the one
made by Mitsubishi with a locking drawer in front) that details
where all of the adjustments are? I have it and have no use for it).
I guess Linux is the next step. Any favorite flavors?
Cheers,
Chuck
6:33 p.m.
At 1:21 PM -0800 1/6/07, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 6 Jan 2007 at 12:26, Zane H. Healy wrote:
Sounds like this might have been the follow-on to the 8500/8600
models then. Somehow when I'd read your first post I'd read Beige as
Blue and White, so your system is actually quite a bit older than I
thought.
That's probably about the model before my
G4/450 AGP. If so a Zip
drive could have been standard. Does it have a faceplate that
matches the rest of the system?
Yup--and the little tag on the back mentions the Zip drive, now that
I have my near-see glasses on. This one also has 1MB cache and some
sort of AV card in it. I understand that low-profile 256MB SIMMs can be
installed, but that
they need to be a special type, not the usual PC133 type. Is this
true--and any guidelines to make sure that I'm picking up the right
flavor?
Depends on how old the system is, as to how picky it is. I'd
recommend checking out one of the old Mac HW sites.
I found a version of Mozilla 1.3.1 that runs on it at
http://www.wamcom.org. It seems to be adequate for casual browsing.
Nice.
I've used fixed-frequency WS monitors on PCs since
the first 19"
Daisy that I obtained, around 1988. It's only lately that I've begun
using LCD monitors. I was concerned that there might be something
REALLY funny about Mac video.
As this isn't as new of a system as I was thinking, as a result it
might be a bit more difficult than I'd indicated. As Cameron
indicates you'll likely need a Mac-VGA converter, they used to be
real easy to find as a lot of monitors shipped with them.
I guess Linux is the next step. Any favorite flavors?
No clue here, I won't waste Mac Hardware on Linux (just like I won't
run Unix on VAXen or Alpha's). You might look at Yellow-Dog, IIRC,
it's a distro for Mac's.
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
7:52 p.m.
On Sat, January 6, 2007 21:21, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Yup--and the little tag on the back mentions the Zip drive, now that
I have my near-see glasses on. This one also has 1MB cache and some
sort of AV card in it.
The Zip was standard on most models aside from the 233, IIRC. Nice machine
for Mac-based noodlings though others have already mentioned the lack of a
modern web browser - iCab is the closest these days but it costs. Netscape
is still a goer as is IE 5 for Mac.
That machine will run early versions of OSX if you can find them, though
I've no idea how fast it'll be; 10.4 struggles sometimes on my 733mhz G4
with a gig of RAM.
I understand that low-profile 256MB SIMMs can be
installed, but that
they need to be a special type, not the usual PC133 type. Is this
true--and any guidelines to make sure that I'm picking up the right
flavor?
I've got mixtures running in my older Macs, both PC133 and PC100. Even
stuff from an old Dell server will run in a beige G3. Right now I've got a
beige 266 that's happily running half a gig of standard PC133. There
*were* restrictions on DIMM height but so far I haven't found a stick that
doesn't work.
Daisy that I obtained, around 1988. It's only
lately that I've begun
using LCD monitors. I was concerned that there might be something
REALLY funny about Mac video.
I get by with a ukp10 video converter when I don't have a handy Mac
monitor kicking around; it needs to be told the res and frequency via the
gift of DIP switches but it works. Failing that get an ATI PCI card and
use that instead, I think any RAGE series one will do.
Happy Mac-ing :)
--
adrian/witchy
Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator
www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection?
7 Jan
7 Jan
4:11 a.m.
Hi,
Chuck Guzis said:
I found a version of Mozilla 1.3.1 that runs on it at
http://www.wamcom.org. It seems to be adequate for casual browsing.
Try iCab too: http://www.icab.de/
There are a few shell programs avaliable for MacOs 7,8 and 9 if you
really _must_ have a prompt, such as MacShell.
--
Cheers,
Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com
The future was never like this!
1 p.m.
On 7 Jan 2007 at 9:11, Stan Barr wrote:
Try iCab too: http://www.icab.de/
I saw iCab, but note that it's a $$$ product and I'm just too cheap
to buy it. :)
There are a few shell programs avaliable for MacOs 7,8
and 9 if you
really _must_ have a prompt, such as MacShell.
Another personal failing--somehow, without a text-based command
language, a computer just doesn't feel like a computer to the grey
mush between my ears. :)
Cheers,
Chuck
6 Jan
6 Jan
3:57 p.m.
I picked up another Mac yesterday--a beige 300 Mhz G3
with 256MB,
and a 15 GB hard disk. It's also got a USB adapter plugged into one
of the PCI slots. It's running OS 9.something. Set me back $20.
Were Zip drives a standard part of these things?
Zip drives were available. I have a beige G3 that is identical to yours,
except that it does have a Zip drive installed in the secondary bay.
On a side-by-side with a Win2K P1 225MHz system with
the same amount
of memory, I think the WIndoze box has snappier response and has
better video.
The beige G3 has only a Rage II+ card by default. The later Revision 2 and
3 use Rage Pro. Thus, I think the video issue you're noticing is probably
the accelerator. The original 300 is almost certainly Revision 1.
You might as well get a Rage Orion and I think you'll find the performance
much better. The Rage Orion is a 16MB Rage 128 PCI card, and I know from
personal experience that it is Mac-compatible and has good performance.
They're pretty cheap on the used market.
I don't care for the Mac monitor that came with
it--has anyone tried
hooking up a fixed-frequency SOG workstation monitor to it? I've got
a nice HP/Sony model that might be a candidate.
If you opt not to get a new video card, just get one of the Mac-VGA
converters and use that with a standard multisync. I think you'll find
that the easiest approach.
The G3 can run up to 10.2.8 without help, or 10.3.9 with XPostFaco, but
you will need a PCI video card if you choose to try that. There are also
some issues with Revision 1 systems booting Mac OS X -- you must ensure
that the boot partition is within the first 8GB. It's simplest just to
partition the disk and install OS X into a new leading 8GB partition, but
if you plan to use OS 9 exclusively this is irrelevant. ROM revision
(something)40F2 is Revision 1 and the System Profiler should tell this to you.
45Fx is Revision 2 and 3.
The G3 is notoriously difficult to install NetBSD on, and I think Linux
has some similar problems varying with distribution. OS X Jaguar is your
best bet for Unix. Despite this, it is a very nice machine for the
generation.
--
--------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ ---
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Well done is better than well said. -- Benjamin Franklin -------------------
4:38 p.m.
On 6 Jan 2007 at 12:57, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
ROM revision (something)40F2 is Revision 1 and the
System Profiler
should tell this to you. 45Fx is Revision 2 and 3.
Profiler reports $77D:45F2, which apparently makes it a Rev C--and it
does have a Rage Pro chip on the mobo.
Thanks for all of the knowledge on these things. I've studiously
avoided Macs for decades and thought I'd take the plunge now that
they're going for less than the price of a haircut.
Cheers,
Chuck
10:35 p.m.
If you prefer to hack an adapter rather than go looking for one, the following
diagram and notes may help:
http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/MacVideoAdapt.gif
This was derived from the two-stages of off-the-shelf adapters
(Mac->VGA->13W3) I use on a similar beige G3 (with internal Zip drive BTW) to
drive a Sun (OEM Sony) 17" monitor.
www.everymac.com is pretty good for basic mac config & specs, i.e.:
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g3/stats/powermac_g3_266_mt.…
4:47 p.m.
Are you going to continue that exponential increase in your collection?
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
6:58 p.m.
On 6 Jan 2007 at 13:47, Fred Cisin wrote:
Are you going to continue that exponential increase in
your collection?
Nope--the 6100 goes back into recycling next week--I've got no real
use for it. I was curious about Macs and figured it might be time to
actually play with one. I've written utilities (to run on PeeCee) for
handling Mac media, but never actually owned a Mac. I do own a set
of the "Inside Macintosh" books, however. Go figure.
When I get my fill of fooling around I'll give the G3 away. I really
miss the command prompt.
One thing I didn't expect is the involved model and OS requirements
for various bits of software. I thought that the idea was that one
didn't have to engage in the upgrading game on a Mac like PC people
do. From what I've seen thus far, if anything, the Mac world seems
to be almost worse in that respect.
Cheers,
Chuck
7:16 p.m.
Chuck Guzis wrote:
I thought that the idea was that one
didn't have to engage in the upgrading game on a Mac like PC people
do. From what I've seen thus far, if anything, the Mac world seems
to be almost worse in that respect.
Maybe in the 1980s, but yes, things are just the same mid-1990's and later.
--
Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/
Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/
A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/
7:16 p.m.
On Sat, 6 Jan 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote:
handling Mac media, but never actually owned a Mac. I
do own a set
of the "Inside Macintosh" books, however. Go figure.
When they first came out (before they were published to the public), the
only way to get a set was to become a "registered developer". I did, just
to get the books. IIRC, the first set that they sent me was looseleaf.
One thing I didn't expect is the involved model
and OS requirements
for various bits of software. I thought that the idea was that one
didn't have to engage in the upgrading game on a Mac like PC people
do. From what I've seen thus far, if anything, the Mac world seems
to be almost worse in that respect.
Although the "Mac culture" denies it vehemently, and claims that
"everything just works when you connect it", I think that it is
pretty much identical to the PC world of that time.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
7:48 p.m.
At 06:16 PM 1/6/2007, Fred Cisin wrote:
On Sat, 6 Jan 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote:
I still have all my old Mac and Amiga developer docs in storage.
As years went by, I believe Apple put all the Inside Mac paper
on CD. Searchable, even.
- John
handling Mac media, but never actually owned a
Mac. I do own a set
of the "Inside Macintosh" books, however. Go figure.
When they first came out (before they were published to the public), the
only way to get a set was to become a "registered developer". I did, just
to get the books. IIRC, the first set that they sent me was looseleaf.
7:59 p.m.
At 4:16 PM -0800 1/6/07, Fred Cisin wrote:
Although the "Mac culture" denies it
vehemently, and claims that
"everything just works when you connect it", I think that it is
pretty much identical to the PC world of that time.
It really depends a lot on how good of a company made the product
you're trying to use. Plus if you by Pro software I think you'll
have an easier go than with consumer grade software. I've owned a
Mac since '95, and the except for a couple of OS updates that weren't
worth running, everything has pretty much just worked, with a couple
exceptions. Getting Professional Audio Hardware and software to work
together, and the Kodak Camera's printer dock we got a few years ago.
One really important thing to have a nice stable well behaved Mac has
been to stay away from 3rd party OS extensions. I've done that for
my last 3 systems, as a result they've been rock solid.
I have yet to see things on the Windows side of the computer world be
anywhere near as simple as with a Mac.
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
8:27 p.m.
On 6 Jan 2007 at 16:59, Zane H. Healy wrote:
It really depends a lot on how good of a company made
the product
you're trying to use. Plus if you by Pro software I think you'll
have an easier go than with consumer grade software. I've owned a
Mac since '95, and the except for a couple of OS updates that weren't
worth running, everything has pretty much just worked, with a couple
exceptions. Getting Professional Audio Hardware and software to work
together, and the Kodak Camera's printer dock we got a few years ago.
I grabbed the first thing that came to hand and read the
requirements. This is for Sibelius 2.11 (released 2002), which is
what would probably be classified as a pro-level music notation
package (at least my publisher accepts scores written in it). It
isn't cheap--about $500-600 and upgraded almost yearly--single-system
use is enforced by a rather elaborate licensing scheme.
Mac: G4/G3/Fast PowerMac, Mac OS 8.6 to 10.1 or later (not 10.0),
15MB+ free RAM (20+ recommended) CD-ROM, 80MB hard disk space.
PC: Pentium or fast 486 (Pentium II or later recommended), Windows
95/98/Me/2000/XP/NT 4 or later, 32MB+ RAM, CD-ROM, 40MB hard disk
space.
Although I haven't tried it, I suspect that the package might run
after a fashion under Win32S under Win3.1 on a 386, given sufficient
RAM.
This may be a chance exception, but it seems to me that the x86
requirements are a lot looser than the Mac ones.
Cheers,
Chuck
10:41 p.m.
I grabbed the first thing that came to hand and read
the
requirements. This is for Sibelius 2.11 (released 2002), which is
what would probably be classified as a pro-level music notation
package (at least my publisher accepts scores written in it). It
isn't cheap--about $500-600 and upgraded almost yearly--single-system
use is enforced by a rather elaborate licensing scheme.
Mac: G4/G3/Fast PowerMac, Mac OS 8.6 to 10.1 or later (not 10.0),
15MB+ free RAM (20+ recommended) CD-ROM, 80MB hard disk space.
PC: Pentium or fast 486 (Pentium II or later recommended), Windows
95/98/Me/2000/XP/NT 4 or later, 32MB+ RAM, CD-ROM, 40MB hard disk
space.
Although I haven't tried it, I suspect that the package might run
after a fashion under Win32S under Win3.1 on a 386, given sufficient
RAM.
This may be a chance exception, but it seems to me that the x86
requirements are a lot looser than the Mac ones.
In what way? "Fast PowerMac" can refer to anything down to a high end
603e (it would suck as much as it would on a 486, but still). "G4/G3/Fast
Power Mac" covers several generations of Power Mac right there,
potentially as much latitude as the PC requirements. And while you say
a 386 could run it, for that matter, a 601 might be able to too. A 601
can boot 8.6, after all. The software may even work okay on 8.1 given a
fat enough extension set, very much analogous to Win32s on 3.1.
So I don't see what's so restrictive about the Mac requirements at all,
frankly.
--
--------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ ---
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- All the sensitive [men] get eaten. -- "Ice Age" ----------------------------
7 Jan
7 Jan
2:38 a.m.
On 6 Jan 2007 at 19:41, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
So I don't see what's so restrictive about the Mac requirements at all,
frankly.
You're right, it's a matter of small degree. Mac OS 8 = 1997;
Windows 95 = 1995. Intel 80486 = 1989; PPC 601 = 1992. It's pretty
much a moot point anyway--everyone's going to be x86 by-and-by.
Cheers,
Chuck
6 Jan
6 Jan
11:33 p.m.
New subject: Atari 800, 810 parts (or Apple II) wanted
Hi all,
I'm going to be in San Francisco for almost a week, from the 8th to the
14th, and I was hoping to find some Atari 800 bits to bring back to New
Zealand with me. Specifically, I'm hoping to find an 810 drive or two, but
other bits, or even a spare machine, wouldn't go amiss! Also, some Apple II
or II+ mainboards would be very handy. Please let me know if you have
anything available, by personal reply might be best?
OT: Will be at MacWorld Expo promoting our product - www.artrage.com . If
anyone on this list's going to be there, free to drop by and say hi! Ask for
Mike, or be ready for confused looks when ranting about old hardware.
Mike
7 Jan
7 Jan
5:24 p.m.
New subject: Atari 800, 810 parts (or Apple II) wanted
You may want to swing by Weird Stuff if you don't mind taking a bit of a
ride, they occassionally have some Atari stuff, there are always used
computer sales going on all over the Bay area and if you're willing to
make a day of it, I'm sure you'll find what you're looking for and for
the most part, at decent prices.
Curt
Mike van Bokhoven wrote:
Hi all,
I'm going to be in San Francisco for almost a week, from the 8th to the
14th, and I was hoping to find some Atari 800 bits to bring back to New
Zealand with me. Specifically, I'm hoping to find an 810 drive or two, but
other bits, or even a spare machine, wouldn't go amiss! Also, some Apple II
or II+ mainboards would be very handy. Please let me know if you have
anything available, by personal reply might be best?
OT: Will be at MacWorld Expo promoting our product - www.artrage.com . If
anyone on this list's going to be there, free to drop by and say hi! Ask for
Mike, or be ready for confused looks when ranting about old hardware.
Mike
7:34 a.m.
One thing I didn't expect is the involved model
and OS requirements
for various bits of software. I thought that the idea was that one
didn't have to engage in the upgrading game on a Mac like PC people
do. From what I've seen thus far, if anything, the Mac world seems
to be almost worse in that respect.
Macs are very stabile machines, for their era and software version. This
is an advantage - doesn't lock-up as much as windows - but is an advantage -
there aren't much things you can do with a classic mac beyond showing it up.
I have a Mac 128 which is a nice conversation piece - you can do just
nothing on that. There are no network, hard disk or like ports. But it is a
nice puter anyways :)
I have a 9500 upgraded to a G3 and I'm desperate in need of more memory
for it, I'd exchange that for some exclusive brazilian gear if someone is
interested.
6440
days inactive
6441
days old
21 comments
12 participants
participants (12)
-
alexandre-listas＠e-secure.com.br -
cclist＠sydex.com -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
curt＠atarimuseum.com -
healyzh＠aracnet.com -
hilpert＠cs.ubc.ca -
jfoust＠threedee.com -
mike＠ambientdesign.com -
spectre＠floodgap.com -
stanb＠dial.pipex.com -
trixter＠oldskool.org -
witchy＠binarydinosaurs.co.uk