3 Jul
2012
3 Jul
'12
7:33 p.m.
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 11:07:27 -0500
From: Mark Tapley <mtapley at swri.edu>
To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Modern computers with docs (was: Re: PM 6100/60, was:
Powermac...)
Message-ID: <p0624080bcc18c0b8657a(a)[129.162.151.118]>
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At 19:48 -0500 7/1/12, ARD wrote (more or less):
Ummm, you want the transistor-level prints on a Core 2 Duo CPU?
290 million transistors! Really, if put on paper, it ought to
fill a large room.
The last machines I ever saw where schematics were available to the
end users were the VAX-11/780 and the uVAX-II. The 780 schematics
were as thick as a phone book and 11 x 17" pages. The uVAX-II
was a lot smaller, it was a hierarchical description, but gave a lot
of insight on how the processor and interface chips were organized.
Jon
More seriously,
can you name a present-day computer where the
manufactuers do supply schematics, data on ASICs, and the like?
3 Jul
3 Jul
8:03 p.m.
On 3 Jul 2012 at 21:33, Jon Elson wrote:
The last machines I ever saw where schematics were
available to the
end users were the VAX-11/780 and the uVAX-II. The 780 schematics
were as thick as a phone book and 11 x 17" pages. The uVAX-II was a
lot smaller, it was a hierarchical description, but gave a lot of
insight on how the processor and interface chips were organized.
I don't care about schematics as much as I'd like to see the
datasheets on the ICs. I might then be able to figure out where to
probe for signals to determine the location of a bad part.
--Chuck
8:53 p.m.
On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 10:33 PM, Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com> wrote:
The last machines I ever saw where schematics were
available to the
end users were the VAX-11/780 and the uVAX-II. The 780 schematics
were as thick as a phone book and 11 x 17" pages. The uVAX-II
was a lot smaller, it was a hierarchical description, but gave a lot
of insight on how the processor and interface chips were organized.
The 11/750 and 11/730 also had full schematics and assembly drawings
on thick slabs of 11"x17" paper, accompanied by several 8.5"x11"
tomes
of technical descriptions. I think even DEC stopped providing that
level of documentation in most cases after about 1983 or so.
I remember plenty of detailed Qbus docs but I don't remember running
across the uVAX-II printset. That would be interesting to review.
-ethan
9:18 p.m.
On Jul 3, 2012 8:54 PM, "Ethan Dicks" <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
I remember plenty of detailed Qbus docs but I don't remember running
across the uVAX-II printset. That would be interesting to review.
-ethan
There's this:
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/630/MP02071_630QB_Mar85.pdf
12:46 p.m.
On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 9:31 AM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
On 7/3/12 8:53 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
Thank you. I'll probably pull it up for general entertainment
purposes when I start re-fiddling with Qbus hardware. I have a number
of BA-23 systems including a uVAX-II.
-ethan
I remember plenty of detailed Qbus docs but I
don't remember running
across the uVAX-II printset. That would be interesting to review.
it is on bitsavers 
3:18 p.m.
Ethan Dicks [ethan.dicks at gmail.com] wrote:
The 11/750 and 11/730 also had full schematics and
assembly
drawings on thick slabs of 11"x17" paper, accompanied by
several 8.5"x11" tomes of technical descriptions. I think
even DEC stopped providing that level of documentation in
most cases after about 1983 or so.
Indeed. In the beginning that sort of data was expected. As time went
on the industry moved to a model where was a "user" manual and a
"technical"
manual (under various names). DEC eventually realised that the cost of
producing the "technical" manual was never recouped by sales of said
manual.
They didn't think that they could up the price enough to recoup the
costs
(since upping the price would decrease sales ... vicious circle), so
they
stopped producing the manuals in many cases. Internally you could get
hold of
specifications and such like, but not the professionally produced
manuals.
In some cases there were special circumstances and a technical manual
was
produced or was cheap to produce from some documentation that had to be
provided anyway (required by big government contract or what not). But
in most
cases detailed docs stopped existing.
These days the most you are likely to get are detailed datasheets (if
you buy
enough parts and maybe sign an NDA). If you buy enough motherboards (or
have bought
enough in the past) you might be able to get a schematic. As a normal
end-user,
however, you simply could not afford the price they'd ask.
Antonio
12:46 p.m.
More seriously, can you name a present-day computer
where the
manufactuers do supply schematics, data on ASICs, and the like?
The last machines I ever saw where schematics were available to the
end users were the VAX-11/780 and the uVAX-II. The 780 schematics
There are many later than that. For a start the 11/750 and 11/730 VAXen
have printests liek that.
After that, the HP150, HP150-II and Portable Plus machines (and I assume
the HP110) had published Techncial manuals with full schematics.
So did all the IBM PC family before the PS/2 range
AFAIK all Radio Shack machines had availbel schematics/service manuals.
Cetainly the CoC3 did (I bought it) and that long postdates the 11/780. I
assuem the PC-sort-of-compatibles -- the 1000 series, 3000 series, did
too. What about the 5000 (I think)? That was a Microchannel machine. Was
there a schematici for that?
In the UK, Amstrad service manuals were easy to get and were little more
tha na schematic and parts list. I have them for at least oen 386SX laptop.
And I think all/most Acorn machines (Archimedes, etc) had scheamtics
avaialble
Some of the AMiga scheamtics were printed in the user manuals. And as I
said in another message tonight there was a book giving some data o nthe
ASICs.
Many of thos schematics did not include things like PSUs and drives, BTW.
-tony
4554
days inactive
4554
days old
7 comments
7 participants
participants (7)
-
aek＠bitsavers.org -
arcarlini＠iee.org -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
cclist＠sydex.com -
elson＠pico-systems.com -
ethan.dicks＠gmail.com -
glen.slick＠gmail.com