Do you happen to have the *old* software handbooks for VMS? They might give you an indication. However, I'm fairly sure neither product is covered in any way by any of the Hobbyist programs. Basically the only two companies activelly supporting the Hobbyists besides Compaq are Process software with Multinet, TCPware, and Purveyor, and Raxco with whatever it is they're offering (something to do with printing and/or disk defragging). There is also a European company that makes a menuing software package that is available for VAXen for free, and one Alpha at a company for free (so it's sort of available to hobbyists). There was also a Database company that was offering time limited Beta versions of their Database a while back, but I forget who they were. There were rumors that Oracle was going to do a Hobbyist version of RDB a while back, but it doesn't look to have happened. One of the big bummers from the Hobbyist side is that Process software won't be able to release a Hobbyist version of PMDF thanks to thier licenseing agreement with Sun. Now if someone would do a Refresh of the Hobbyist CD's. I *really* need a copy of TCPIP V5.1 for my Alpha!!! And would like OpenVMS 7.2-1 for it. BTW, my thanks to everyone that answered. I was hoping I'd be able to run V5.5-2 on at least one of the 4000's I've got. That the model 60 will run it is really good news, as it looks like I've finally got a use for it :^) Looks like it's time to retire the 3100/20, since it's only reason for existing is to do compiles on a V5.5-2 system a faster box would be nice. I'm hoping I can get Oracle running on a newer version than V5.5-2 though, as I believe V6.2 is the minimum release that can be in a cluster with V7.2 systems. Right now the model 90 is running V7.1. Zane