11 Jun
2006
11 Jun
'06
4:08 p.m.
Hi,
The discussion re: SBC6120 got me thinking (something
I try hard to do only on special occasions! :> )
It's disturbing that it seems so hard for the OP
to scrape up enough interest to justify parts for
another build.
Which brings me to my question(s)...
*Why* aren't people interested in this sort of thing?
- lack of interest (i.e. PDP8? what's *that*??)
- lack of collector appeal ("Ah, but it's not a REAL '8!")
- lack of space ("Hand me a shovel; I'm digging a sub-basement")
- lack of CASH (<frown>)
- lack of skills ("Now, *which* end of the iron do I hold??")
- lack of time ("Honey, little Bobby set himself on fire, again.
Can you please put it out?")
I obviously have a good idea what the reasons COULD be.
But, I'm curious as to what they REALLY are!
In the interests of candor, maybe replies off-list are better?
And, don't interpret this as JUST pertaining to that
particular product/project. I'm curious as to how receptive
(resistant!) people are to *any* sorts of projects like that
(even if they are "already assembled")
Thanks! I hope I didn't step on anyone's toes...
--don
11 Jun
11 Jun
4:13 p.m.
Don Y wrote:
*Why* aren't people interested in this sort of
thing?
- lack of interest (i.e. PDP8? what's *that*??)
- lack of collector appeal ("Ah, but it's not a REAL '8!")
- lack of space ("Hand me a shovel; I'm digging a sub-basement")
- lack of CASH (<frown>)
- lack of skills ("Now, *which* end of the iron do I hold??")
- lack of time ("Honey, little Bobby set himself on fire, again.
Can you please put it out?")
I obviously have a good idea what the reasons COULD be.
But, I'm curious as to what they REALLY are!
All of the above. :)
The main reason I did not look closely at the SBC6120
is the fact that I did not realise that you had IDE
drivers to boot a OS. Having used a real PDP-8 and a TTY
I think PDP == PAPER TAPE and don't have both fun items
the TTY or the READER/PUNCH.
6:01 p.m.
Hi,
The discussion re: SBC6120 got me thinking (something
I try hard to do only on special occasions! :> )
It's disturbing that it seems so hard for the OP
to scrape up enough interest to justify parts for
another build.
Which brings me to my question(s)...
*Why* aren't people interested in this sort of thing?
- lack of interest (i.e. PDP8? what's *that*??)
- lack of collector appeal ("Ah, but it's not a REAL '8!")
- lack of space ("Hand me a shovel; I'm digging a sub-basement")
- lack of CASH (<frown>)
- lack of skills ("Now, *which* end of the iron do I hold??")
- lack of time ("Honey, little Bobby set himself on fire, again.
Can you please put it out?")
In my case, it's a combination of lack of interest and lack of money....
This kit would cost around $150 I beliece. OK, I could afford that, but I
would perhaps not be able to buy some tools I wanted or something like
that. And while I enjoy electronic hardware, soldering up a PCB is not
_that_ interesting unless I've been designing it. And I have a PDP8/e on
my desk anyway (a real one, not a PC running an emulator, before anyone
asks.)
I'd spend more than that on one of my own projects, because I enjoy the
design/debugging part.
-tony
7:55 p.m.
On 6/11/2006 at 1:08 PM Don Y wrote:
*Why* aren't people interested in this sort of
thing?
Well, okay. Here's my take--while the miniature front panel is kind of
cute, why the PDP-8? To my mind, the PDP-11 was a giant leap forward in
terms of usability and might be a better target for implementation. The
PDP-8 had a very small instruction set, miserable memory management and
wasn't very fast (I'll bet the uC on the IDE drive that it's attached to
is at least an order of magnitude faster). I have no particular fondness
for it. Perhaps someone else does.
Now, put out something that will exercise my mind a bit, say a multicore
VLIW machine with vector capabilities, and I could get interested. How
about a Dataflow machine?
One could see the same thing in amateur radio or even audio. At one time,
the way to get some of the best stuff at affordable prices was to build
your own. When I was active in amateur radio, I built all of my own
equipment--even my receiver. But after awhile, it was clear that folks
with more money to spend than I had could buy better than the builders
could build. So you got the phenomenon of the geezers with KWM-2s and
whatnot sitting around and whiling away the hours on 75 meter fone. I
would have sooner had a root canal than do that--it might as well be CB.
Thank heavens I discovered computers.
Well, now computers have turned into a plug-in artist's dream. In fact,
things have gone a step further than amateur radio--the ready-made stuff is
not only good, it's DISPOSABLE. What's the point of fooling with this
stuff trying to make it better? I'd sooner make my own paper towels.
Sure, I've got lots of memories tied up in this stuff. But they're just
that--memories and the gear is just that--stuff. I want to make some new
memories while I still have time. The stuff's just a means to an end.
Cheers,
Chuck
12 Jun
12 Jun
1:27 a.m.
Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 6/11/2006 at 1:08 PM Don Y wrote:
Heck I bet it is 100x faster and 4096x more memory at least.
*Why* aren't people interested in this sort of
thing?
Well, okay. Here's my take--while the miniature front panel is kind of
cute, why the PDP-8? To my mind, the PDP-11 was a giant leap forward in
terms of usability and might be a better target for implementation. The
PDP-8 had a very small instruction set, miserable memory management and
wasn't very fast (I'll bet the uC on the IDE drive that it's attached to
is at least an order of magnitude faster). I have no particular fondness
for it. Perhaps someone else does. Now, put out something that will exercise my mind a
bit, say a multicore
VLIW machine with vector capabilities, and I could get interested. How
about a Dataflow machine?
The PDP8 is a 1965 era computer ... a 40 year old design.
The PC (XT) is 25 years and the 386 15 years.
I can't say that computers have improved since all want to run
Windows or claim to a RED HAT linux file server. ( I have no idea
what a mac is since they dropped the 68000 ). Every body here
wants just music, illegal CD's and DVD's downloaded and the internet
to give you Junk Mail and free SEX at high speed.
( I have been on dial up a long time and then it was $60 a month )
One could see the same thing in amateur radio or even
audio. At one time,
the way to get some of the best stuff at affordable prices was to build
your own. When I was active in amateur radio, I built all of my own
equipment--even my receiver. But after awhile, it was clear that folks
with more money to spend than I had could buy better than the builders
could build. So you got the phenomenon of the geezers with KWM-2s and
whatnot sitting around and whiling away the hours on 75 meter fone. I
would have sooner had a root canal than do that--it might as well be CB.
Thank heavens I discovered computers.
Well I guess morse code people don't use any more? Most short wave
radio all seems to bible preaching or something Spanish.
Well, now computers have turned into a plug-in
artist's dream. In fact,
things have gone a step further than amateur radio--the ready-made stuff is
not only good, it's DISPOSABLE. What's the point of fooling with this
stuff trying to make it better? I'd sooner make my own paper towels.
You get what you pay for.
Sure, I've got lots of memories tied up in this
stuff. But they're just
that--memories and the gear is just that--stuff. I want to make some new
memories while I still have time. The stuff's just a means to an end.
Cheers,
Chuck
.
11 Jun
11 Jun
11:04 p.m.
New subject: OT-ish: Build-it stuff
On 6/12/06, Don Y <dgy at dakotacom.net> wrote:
Hi,
The discussion re: SBC6120 got me thinking...
*Why* aren't people interested in this sort of thing?
- lack of interest (i.e. PDP8? what's *that*??)
In some cases... witness the "what do you _do_ with a PDP-8" thread.
- lack of collector appeal ("Ah, but it's not
a REAL '8!")
Well... it's not built in 1970, but _mine_ has a real chip I borrowed
from a real DEC machine (spare DECmate III board that
cost me less
than a NOS CPU chip).
- lack of space ("Hand me a shovel; I'm
digging a sub-basement")
Mine hangs on the wall...
- lack of CASH (<frown>)
Can't help that one, but even with the FP6120, it's cheaper than
typical ePay prices for an -8/e. It depends on how much you want to
run code on hardware as opposed to an emulator.
- lack of skills ("Now, *which* end of the iron
do I hold??")
- lack of time ("Honey, little Bobby set himself on fire, again.
Can you please put it out?")
With as fine as the traces and vias are on this board, I wouldn't call
the SBC6120 a "learn to solder" project, but I didn't find it
difficult to assemble (unlike the IOB6120 which I found to be on the
challenging side, given the 0.5mm-pitch QFP FPGA in the middle).
In the interests of candor, maybe replies off-list are
better?
And, don't interpret this as JUST pertaining to that
particular product/project. I'm curious as to how receptive
(resistant!) people are to *any* sorts of projects like that
(even if they are "already assembled")
I'm probably not a good example of why people don't build kits like
this, since I've built *many* things from Spare Time Gizmos and many
kits before that (starting with a Don Lancaster TVT-6 "TV Typewriter"
and a Quest Elf in the late 1970s when I was just a punk kid who
wanted a computer at home). About the only STG project I've passed on
lately was the keypad for the Elf2K; pretty much everthing else I've
found to be interesting to build, and always fun. OTOH, I can usually
blunt the cost issue for most projects by supply 75%-90% of the parts
out of my own parts bin, leaving just the bare PCB to pay for. The
IOB6120 is one of the only projects I've done where I _did_ buy the
100%-of-the-parts-in-a-bag kit.
I do like it when the board sellers make a "bare board and
difficult-to-find/custom parts kit" - that's how I did the FP6120
(board, plexi, and paddle switches) and the SBC6120 (board and
stackable connector) and the Elf2K disk board (board, stackable
connector, and CF socket). I know kit makers aren't gouging on
popcorn parts, but there's a certain amount of handling, etc.,
involved with ordering, re-packaging, etc., that they do need to
recover. If I already _have_ the stuff on hand, I'm happy to order
the minimal amount of parts with a bare board. Of course, it helps
that I have my own EPROM burner, etc., which not every hobbyist has,
especially beginners.
So that's my $0.02...
-ethan
12 Jun
12 Jun
2:24 a.m.
New subject: OT-ish: Build-it stuff
Ethan Dicks wrote:
Can't help that one, but even with the FP6120,
it's cheaper than
typical ePay prices for an -8/e. It depends on how much you want to
run code on hardware as opposed to an emulator.
I like hardware you can touch.
The FP6120 is still PDP-8 speed, not 10 or 100x faster
as FPGA or emulator Version too.
I do like it when the board sellers make a "bare
board and
difficult-to-find/custom parts kit" - that's how I did the FP6120
(board, plexi, and paddle switches) and the SBC6120 (board and
stackable connector) and the Elf2K disk board (board, stackable
connector, and CF socket). I know kit makers aren't gouging on
popcorn parts, but there's a certain amount of handling, etc.,
involved with ordering, re-packaging, etc., that they do need to
recover. If I already _have_ the stuff on hand, I'm happy to order
the minimal amount of parts with a bare board. Of course, it helps
that I have my own EPROM burner, etc., which not every hobbyist has,
especially beginners.
That is also very handy. I think the limiting problem for
DIY PCB's is the lack of good inexpensive PCB and Schematic
layout software. Now that everything is going surface mount ... sigh
Hmm what about using a gazzillion 3 input NOR gates for a very tiny
Flip/Chips :)
-ethan
.
12:22 p.m.
New subject: OT-ish: Build-it stuff
That is also very handy. I think the limiting problem
for
DIY PCB's is the lack of good inexpensive PCB and Schematic
layout software. Now that everything is going surface mount ... sigh
Hmm what about using a gazzillion 3 input NOR gates for a very tiny
Flip/Chips :)
Try Circad (now omniglyph) from Holophase Software. This is the best PCB
CAD software I've ever used. Diptrace and Eagle are excellent
second-placers. Eagle has more libraries, and good support. Diptrace has
EXCELLENT support and the facility to convert eagle libraries to him. But
nothing is easy to use like circad. The option to load a BMP of a board and
trace lines on top of that (for reverse engineering) is G R E A T.
I have no problems with surface mount since I learned to do board using
thermal transfering tech at home.
Greetz from Brazil
Alexandre
http://www.tabajara-labs.com.br
1:25 p.m.
New subject: OT-ish: Build-it stuff
Alexandre Souza wrote:
Try Circad (now omniglyph) from Holophase
Software. This is the best PCB
CAD software I've ever used. Diptrace and Eagle are excellent
second-placers. Eagle has more libraries, and good support. Diptrace has
EXCELLENT support and the facility to convert eagle libraries to him. But
nothing is easy to use like circad. The option to load a BMP of a board and
trace lines on top of that (for reverse engineering) is G R E A T.
$1000 is my budget for the computer not the PCB and schematic layout
program. The biggest problem is the free software I have has no
component libraries for the odd stuff I am using like a 84 PLCC socket.
Tango PCB and schematic programs I liked.
I live in a apartment so having room for any big items like a real
computer are out -- front panel, 16K memory , Washing machine err Hard
drive :).
1:56 p.m.
New subject: OT-ish: Build-it stuff
$1000 is my budget for the computer not the PCB and
schematic layout
program. The biggest problem is the free software I have has no
component libraries for the odd stuff I am using like a 84 PLCC socket.
Tango PCB and schematic programs I liked.
Eagle and diptrace has. But you can always build your own component, it
is easy! And all of the said programs are free with some (liveable)
restrictions. Take a (good) look in the download area of Eagle, with TONS of
libraries for it.
I live in a apartment so having room for any big items
like a real
computer are out -- front panel, 16K memory , Washing machine err Hard
drive :).
hahaha
5:28 p.m.
New subject: OT-ish: Build-it stuff
I live in a apartment so having room for any big items
like a real
computer are out -- front panel, 16K memory , Washing machine err Hard
drive :).
I suspect your apartment is larger than the room I had as an
undergraduate student. But in that room I manged to have and use :
A TRS-80 Model 1
A TRS-80 Model 3
A TRS-80 Coco
A Philips P850 Mini with paper tape punch/reader
An Intel MCS8i
Various printers, termionals, etc
A small-ish valved 'scope
Service manuals for all that stuff :-)
-tony
7:12 p.m.
New subject: OT-ish: Build-it stuff
Tony Duell wrote:
I suspect your apartment is larger than the room I had
as an
undergraduate student. But in that room I manged to have and use :
A TRS-80 Model 1
A TRS-80 Model 3
A TRS-80 Coco
A Philips P850 Mini with paper tape punch/reader
An Intel MCS8i
Various printers, termionals, etc
A small-ish valved 'scope
Service manuals for all that stuff :-)
-tony
But I want a real Stereo and BIG not bookshelf speakers to go
with a 26 inch wide screen TV as well as Music. The books
and Music and Anime are all on my book shelves.
...
and computers of course like a PC and hopefully later
a SBC6120.
PS. I got a cheap laser (B&W) and found for $200 it was better than
paying $60 for a B&W ink jet every few months for just the odd stuff.
If you have been downloading stuff off the web, a good printer is a must.
7:45 p.m.
New subject: OT-ish: Build-it stuff
woodelf wrote:
PS. I got a cheap laser (B&W) and found for $200
it was better than
paying $60 for a B&W ink jet every few months for just the odd stuff.
If you have been downloading stuff off the web, a good printer is a must.
Ouch. LJ4+'s sell for $30 here.
13 Jun
13 Jun
12:35 a.m.
New subject: Laser printing
PS. I got a cheap laser (B&W) and found for $200
it was better than
paying $60 for a B&W ink jet every few months for just the odd stuff.
If you have been downloading stuff off the web, a good printer is a must.
For me the HP 4 Plus (or the 5 Plus) is the winner.
- Very reliable EX+ mech
- 7000 pages/toner load
- Original toner cartridge can be reloaded 3 or 4 times without changing
cylinder
- VERY sturdy
- Last cheap model using an aluminiun fuser cylinder (the newer or
cheaper lasers uses a tube of teflom, easy to rip or puncture) and a real
fuser lamp (instead of a fragile and expensive ceramic resistance)
- All the (metal) gears into JUST ONE module
- One "fuse" gear separated from the gear module - if the fuser locks
up, the "fuse" gear breaks, and it is a $1 replacement
- 600 DPI with Resolution Enhancement
- Cheap network board
- Uses common 72-pin SIMM memory from PC
- Has serial/parallel ports
Of course there are better printers (4/5SI/MX) but at a way higher price
and power comsumption.
World will end and my HP4+ will still print. Mine has more than 700.000
copies printed!!! :oo
Greetz from Brazil
Alexandre Souza
12:50 a.m.
New subject: Laser printing
I've still got (and am still using) a Panasonic KXP-4450 and a KXP-4455;
one circa 1989, the other 1992.
Heavy duty-weigh a ton, but just keep going and going. Toner (no carts)
and other supplies are still available. Cost per page has to be among the
lowest for lasers.
Cheers,
Chuck
14 Jun
14 Jun
1:03 a.m.
New subject: Laser printing
On Tuesday 13 June 2006 12:50 am, Chuck Guzis wrote:
I've still got (and am still using) a Panasonic
KXP-4450 and a KXP-4455;
one circa 1989, the other 1992.
Heavy duty-weigh a ton, but just keep going and going. Toner (no carts)
and other supplies are still available. Cost per page has to be among the
lowest for lasers.
Speaking of Panasonic laser printers, I have a KX-P6500 that's gone weird on
me, puts lines on the pages that aren't supposed to be there. "Process
unit" time? Anybody know where I can get a good deal on one? Barring that,
I have a package of toner for this thing I have no use for otherwise, the
printer having been moved to storage...
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
3:50 a.m.
New subject: Laser printing
On 6/14/2006 at 1:03 AM Roy J. Tellason wrote:
Speaking of Panasonic laser printers, I have a
KX-P6500 that's gone weird
on me, puts lines on the pages that aren't supposed to be there.
"Process
unit" time? Anybody know where I can get a good
deal on one? Barring
that, I have a package of toner for this thing I have no use for
otherwise, the
printer having been moved to storage...
Hmmm, if the lines are vertical, it sounds like it's time for a new drum
all right. If you can't find a good deal on e-Pay, you might give your
local cartridge refill outfit a call--they can often refit an aftermarket
drum into the cart that will last longer and cost much less than the $150
for a new one.
Cheers,
Chuck
6:47 a.m.
New subject: Laser printing
On Wednesday 14 June 2006 03:50 am, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 6/14/2006 at 1:03 AM Roy J. Tellason wrote:
I had one guy suggest cleaning the drum with lint-free cloth and alcohol, but
never tried it. It's a very compact little printer...
Speaking of Panasonic laser printers, I have a
KX-P6500 that's gone weird
on me, puts lines on the pages that aren't supposed to be there.
"Process unit" time? Anybody know where I can get a good deal on one?
Barring that, I have a package of toner for this thing I have no use for
otherwise, the printer having been moved to storage...
Hmmm, if the lines are vertical, it sounds like it's time for a new drum
all right. If you can't find a good deal on e-Pay, you might
give your local cartridge
refill outfit a call--they can often refit an aftermarket drum into the cart
that will last longer and cost much less than the $150 for a new one.
I don't know of any outfits like that around here, but I'll look around some
when I get some money to put into it.
In the meantime, I have this IBM 4019 here... :-)
That one has, I'm told, "a postscript card in it". After popping the side
open and looking at some boards etc. I have no idea which of what boards I'm
looking at might be that card. This one's bigger, I have no idea of the
toner situation, and has a really annoying habit of kicking out a "status
page" every time you power it up. Which wastes an awful lot of paper over
time, or an awful lot of power if I left it on (which I don't plan to do).
I did a bit of digging a while back and the best I could find was that it's
possible to have the printer come up with other emulations ("laserjet" being
one of them, I forget the others) but then I lose the advantage of having a
postscript printer.
Wondering if maybe somebody on the list here knows of any way to disable that
"feature"...?
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
13 Jun
13 Jun
12:56 a.m.
New subject: Laser printing
Alexandre Souza wrote:
For me the HP 4 Plus (or the 5 Plus) is the
winner.
I have an HP 4ML next to me that is a decade old and prints(*) as well
as the day I bought it.
(*) It does not WORK quite the same way, though: Occasionally, it will
just cease to accept input. A power cycle is the only thing that cures
that condition.
- 600 DPI with Resolution Enhancement
Only on text edges. It's not actually 600 DPI addressable.
--
Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/
Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/
A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/
1:30 a.m.
New subject: Laser printing
On 6/13/06, Jim Leonard <trixter at oldskool.org> wrote:
I have an HP 4ML next to me that is a decade old and
prints(*) as well
as the day I bought it.
I bought a 4ML new, back in the day, for about $1100 - still works great.
I also have a 3Si that was $15 at the local Uni surplus, but that one
took about $40 in rollers and pads (and many hours) to get working,
not that I'm complaining about a $55 duplexing, two-tray, networked
Postscript printer.
For lighter loads, though, I can recommend the 4ML. Mine has
performed flawlessly for years with Amigas, Macs, PCs, and Sun boxes.
The only thing I can recommend as an accessory is a external networked
print server.
-ethan
2:26 a.m.
New subject: Laser printing
At 5:30 PM +1200 6/13/06, Ethan Dicks wrote:
On 6/13/06, Jim Leonard <trixter at oldskool.org>
wrote:
That's about what I paid for my 5MP and I'm 3-4 months shy of having
owned it for 10 years. I'm on the 2nd or 3rd Toner cartridge. I
bought it because it spoke Postscript, a fact that has made it more
useful as time has passed.
I have an HP 4ML next to me that is a decade old
and prints(*) as well
as the day I bought it.
I bought a 4ML new, back in the day, for about $1100 - still works great. For lighter loads, though, I can recommend the 4ML.
Mine has
performed flawlessly for years with Amigas, Macs, PCs, and Sun boxes.
The only thing I can recommend as an accessory is a external networked
print server.
Mine has a Asante Ethertalk to Localtalk converter hooked up to it.
The Mac's print directly to that, everything else goes through my VMS
server to talk to it. One of these days I'm going to upgrade to a
better print server, in fact I just had an unused HP one give to me
(not sure how old it is). Main thing that's kept me from hooking up
one of the other external networked print servers I have (I have at
least two others), is that I can never remember where I put any of my
Parallel cables and when I can, I don't have the time (after all my
current solution works flawlessly).
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
11:02 a.m.
New subject: Laser printing
I bought a 4ML new, back in the day, for about $1100 -
still works great.
ML is a great printer, but has a very weak fuser assembly - this one
already uses the "new technology" of ceramic heater and very thin and
flexible teflon tube. But I love it, I have one of that too :o) It was saved
from scrap, was in a trash bin, but now works
flawlessly ;o)
I also have a 3Si that was $15 at the local Uni
surplus, but that one
took about $40 in rollers and pads (and many hours) to get working,
not that I'm complaining about a $55 duplexing, two-tray, networked
Postscript printer.
:oO
For lighter loads, though, I can recommend the 4ML.
Mine has
performed flawlessly for years with Amigas, Macs, PCs, and Sun boxes.
The only thing I can recommend as an accessory is a external networked
print server.
Great! :oD
9:24 p.m.
New subject: Laser printing
On 6/14/06, Alexandre Souza <alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br> wrote:
I'm sure that the fuser is fragile - I have a 4L (same engine and
case, Centronics-only interface board, no Postscript) that was really
cheap at the Uni surplus because it had no cartridge (not even a
mostly-empty one) and no fuser assembly. Some Uni person pulled the
entire fuser unit and dumped the rest on the surplus folks. :-P
It's a low-priority project to get that one working again - I can see
that one of the SMT interface ICs (74LS07?) is cracked and will have
to be replaced. Dunno what else is wrong with it, since it has no
fuser.
-ethan
I bought a 4ML
new, back in the day, for about $1100 - still works great.
ML is a great printer, but has a very weak fuser assembly - this one
already uses the "new technology" of ceramic heater and very thin and
flexible teflon tube. But I love it, I have one of that too :o) It was saved
from scrap, was in a trash bin, but now works flawlessly ;o)
9:28 p.m.
New subject: Laser printing
I'm sure that the fuser is fragile - I have a 4L
(same engine and
case, Centronics-only interface board, no Postscript) that was really
cheap at the Uni surplus because it had no cartridge (not even a
mostly-empty one) and no fuser assembly. Some Uni person pulled the
entire fuser unit and dumped the rest on the surplus folks. :-P
If you have the same engine/case, you have a 4P and not a 4L, eh? :oP
It's a low-priority project to get that one
working again - I can see
that one of the SMT interface ICs (74LS07?) is cracked and will have
to be replaced. Dunno what else is wrong with it, since it has no
fuser.
For the price of one in USA, I'd tell you to buy another ;o)
9:44 p.m.
New subject: Laser printing
On 6/14/06, Alexandre Souza <alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br> wrote:
If I see another at a similarly low price (i.e. - cheaper than a good
lunch), I _will_ pick it up and mix the parts.
-ethan
If you have the same engine/case, you have a 4P
and not a 4L, eh? :oP
Doh! You are quite right.
It's a
low-priority project to get that one working again...
For the price of one in USA, I'd tell you to buy another ;o)
9:48 p.m.
New subject: Laser printing
On 6/14/06, Alexandre Souza <alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br> wrote:
If you have the same engine/case, you have a 4P
and not a 4L, eh? :oP
Hang on... no... that's not right... there's a 4L and 4ML, and a 4P
and a 4MP... the unit I have is _identical_ to the 4ML, down to the
single button and small number of LEDs (3? 4?). From googling
around, the 4P/MP has multiple buttons and perhaps an LCD. The ML and
L are nothing like it.
-ethan
14 Jun
14 Jun
7:19 a.m.
New subject: Laser printing
Ethan Dicks wrote:
On 6/14/06, Alexandre Souza <alexandre-listas at
e-secure.com.br> wrote:
In my experience (which includes a couple of 4Ls), any HP with the
"L" suffix isn't worth fixing. The reliability, life-span, and speed is
not even close to a LJ4 or LJ4P.
Yours is the low-profile - about 10" or 11" tall overall - LJ4, right?
I seriously wouldn't waste the price of a toner cart on it.
Doc
If you have the same engine/case, you have a
4P and not a 4L, eh? :oP
Hang on... no... that's not right... there's a 4L and 4ML, and a 4P
and a 4MP... the unit I have is _identical_ to the 4ML, down to the
single button and small number of LEDs (3? 4?). From googling
around, the 4P/MP has multiple buttons and perhaps an LCD. The ML and
L are nothing like it.
7:31 a.m.
New subject: Laser printing
Doc Shipley wrote:
Ethan Dicks wrote:
Err, that came out a little short.
"Given that it needs a fuser and chip-level repair, I seriously etc."
Doc
On 6/14/06, Alexandre Souza <alexandre-listas
at e-secure.com.br> wrote:
In my experience (which includes a couple of 4Ls), any HP with the "L"
suffix isn't worth fixing. The reliability, life-span, and speed is not
even close to a LJ4 or LJ4P.
Yours is the low-profile - about 10" or 11" tall overall - LJ4, right?
I seriously wouldn't waste the price of a toner cart on it. If you have the same engine/case, you have a
4P and not a 4L, eh?
:oP
Hang on... no... that's not right... there's a 4L and 4ML, and a 4P
and a 4MP... the unit I have is _identical_ to the 4ML, down to the
single button and small number of LEDs (3? 4?). From googling
around, the 4P/MP has multiple buttons and perhaps an LCD. The ML and
L are nothing like it.
9:42 p.m.
New subject: Laser printing
On 6/14/06, Doc Shipley <doc at mdrconsult.com> wrote:
Ethan Dicks wrote:
It's certainly a low-volume printer.
Hang on... no... that's not right...
there's a 4L and 4ML, and a 4P
and a 4MP... the unit I have is _identical_ to the 4ML, down to the
single button and small number of LEDs (3? 4?). From googling
around, the 4P/MP has multiple buttons and perhaps an LCD. The ML and
L are nothing like it.
In my experience (which includes a couple of 4Ls), any HP with the
"L" suffix isn't worth fixing. The reliability, life-span, and speed is
not even close to a LJ4 or LJ4P. Yours is the low-profile - about 10" or
11" tall overall - LJ4, right?
Lower. More like 6" or less.
I seriously wouldn't waste the price of a toner
cart on it.
As I said in an earlier post, given that the cost of the printer was
less than a decent lunch, I would only fix it if I got the parts for a
similar price - i.e., *much* less than a toner cart.
-ethan
8:39 p.m.
New subject: Laser printing
Ethan Dicks wrote:
Hang on... no... that's not right... there's a
4L and 4ML, and a 4P
and a 4MP... the unit I have is _identical_ to the 4ML, down to the
single button and small number of LEDs (3? 4?). From googling
around, the 4P/MP has multiple buttons and perhaps an LCD. The ML and
L are nothing like it.
All this talk has me thinking: I love my 4ML, but eventually it will
die and I lack the resources to repair it. The 4ML is only 300 DPI
addressable: What is a good 600 DPI Postscript laser printer that I
should be able to pick up for $80 or less?
--
Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/
Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/
A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/
8:48 p.m.
New subject: Laser printing
Jim Leonard wrote:
Ethan Dicks wrote:
HP 4xx0.
I have a 4100N, and I've worked with 4000 and 4050 models. They're
bulletproof, fast, easy to get toner for, and *small*. Does 1200DPI and PS.
I paid $100 for mine, but it had a 6900 page count. 4000 models go
cheaper.
The IBM 4039 I just gave away was no slouch either (600dpi), but it's
noisy and relatively power-hungry.
Doc
Hang on... no... that's not right...
there's a 4L and 4ML, and a 4P
and a 4MP... the unit I have is _identical_ to the 4ML, down to the
single button and small number of LEDs (3? 4?). From googling
around, the 4P/MP has multiple buttons and perhaps an LCD. The ML and
L are nothing like it.
All this talk has me thinking: I love my 4ML, but eventually it will
die and I lack the resources to repair it. The 4ML is only 300 DPI
addressable: What is a good 600 DPI Postscript laser printer that I
should be able to pick up for $80 or less?
11:20 p.m.
New subject: Laser printing
Doc Shipley wrote:
I paid $100 for mine, but it had a 6900 page count.
4000 models go
cheaper.
No idea where you got it; ebay shows >$200 for models that have 35K
pagecount. One 4050 was selling for $79, but it had an 800K (!!!)
pagecount, is that possible? Can these things last nearly one million
pages?
--
Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/
Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/
A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/
13 Jun
13 Jun
1:38 a.m.
New subject: Laser printing
Alexandre Souza wrote:
For me the HP 4 Plus (or the 5 Plus) is the
winner.
Agreed.
- Very reliable EX+ mech
- 7000 pages/toner load
- Original toner cartridge can be reloaded 3 or 4 times without changing
cylinder
- VERY sturdy
- Last cheap model using an aluminiun fuser cylinder (the newer or
cheaper lasers uses a tube of teflom, easy to rip or puncture) and a real
fuser lamp (instead of a fragile and expensive ceramic resistance)
- All the (metal) gears into JUST ONE module
- One "fuse" gear separated from the gear module - if the fuser locks
up, the "fuse" gear breaks, and it is a $1 replacement
- 600 DPI with Resolution Enhancement
- Cheap network board
- Uses common 72-pin SIMM memory from PC
Note that the 4 (without the '+') uses different memory!
(parity)
And, if you stuff a PostScript SIMM into a 4+ (along with
the JetDirect card) it automatically morphs into a 4M+.
I think I have 66MB in mine so printing even big documents
is really quite fast!
- Has serial/parallel ports
And 10Base2/T/Appletalk with the JetDirect card
5:32 a.m.
New subject: OT-ish: Build-it stuff
On 6/13/06, Alexandre Souza <alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br> wrote:
Try Circad (now omniglyph) from Holophase
Software...
... The option to load a BMP of a board and
trace lines on top of that (for reverse engineering) is G R E A T.
Wow... nice feature.
-ethan
6607
days inactive
6611
days old
33 comments
10 participants
participants (10)
-
alexandre-listas＠e-secure.com.br -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca -
cclist＠sydex.com -
dgy＠DakotaCom.Net -
doc＠mdrconsult.com -
ethan.dicks＠gmail.com -
healyzh＠aracnet.com -
rtellason＠verizon.net -
trixter＠oldskool.org