Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapes at JPL needed. Vintage computers slated for demolition.
4 Jun
2005
4 Jun
'05
1:01 p.m.
I came across this very interesting, on topic story about
the detection of an anomalous acceleration, the need to
recover data which "exists on a few hundred ancient 7- and
9-track magnetic tapes", and the imminent scrapping of the
original computers at:
http://www.planetary.org/news/2005/pioneer_anomaly1_0510.html
A snippet from the article:
"With the spacecraft now silent, we cannot expect future data,
so we must look to the past. In fact, there are hundreds of
tapes containing data taken before 1987, when the spacecraft
were between 10 and 40 AU from the Sun. This data from the time
the Pioneers were still in the midst of this planetary realm
could be crucial to solving the anomaly.
Unfortunately, this data is stored on hundreds of ancient
nine-track tapes, now lodged under a staircase at JPL. The tapes
can only be read by equally ancient computers, giants compared
to modern machines, which are slated for demolition. We must
transfer this data to more modern media readable by up-to-date
computers, but time is running out."
Are there any list members interested in assisting in the transfer
of this data to "more modern media"?
Does anyone know what the "ancient computers" are and if a rescue
of them from destruction is feasible?
Regards,
Bill Dawson
http://www.swtpc.com
whdawson
8 Jun
8 Jun
8:45 a.m.
>>>> "Bill" == Bill Dawson
<whdawson at localisps.net> writes:
Bill> I came across this very interesting, on topic story about the
Bill> detection of an anomalous acceleration, the need to recover
Bill> data which "exists on a few hundred ancient 7- and 9-track
Bill> magnetic tapes", and the imminent scrapping of the original
Bill> computers at:
Bill> http://www.planetary.org/news/2005/pioneer_anomaly1_0510.html
Bill> ...Does anyone know what the "ancient computers" are and if a
Bill> rescue of them from destruction is feasible?
Just because the computers are scrapped doesn't mean the data are
lost. The article is unreasonably alarmist about that. Then again,
the reason becomes obvious a few lines later -- the "act now" link
demonstrates that this is a "begging for money" gimmick.
One also wonders whether tapes "lodged under a staircase" are likely
to be important...
paul
9 a.m.
New subject: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapes at JPL needed. Vintage computers slated for demolition.
At 03:01 PM 6/4/2005, Bill Dawson wrote:
Does anyone know what the "ancient computers"
are and if a rescue
of them from destruction is feasible?
I sent Dr. Andersen a note asking those questions, we'll see if he responds...
The Planetary Society's page has several links to solicit funds
for the operation. It looked like they wanted cash, not computers. :-)
- John
10:07 a.m.
New subject: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapes at JPL needed. Vintagecomputers slated for demolition.
Subject: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapes at JPL needed.
Unfortunately, this data is stored on hundreds of
ancient
nine-track tapes
Are there any list members interested in assisting in the transfer
of this data to "more modern media"?
Yep, I make my living from projects like that.
It will not be a problem to copy the data; but I dont have the foggiest idea
whether the data is "decodeable". The best way to save the data, is to get a
copy of the program which wrote the data in the first place. I have the
funny feeling that the data is written in _huge_ blocks.
Nico
10:51 a.m.
New subject: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapes at JPL needed. Vintagecomputers slated for demolition.
>>>> "Nico" == Nico de Jong
<nico at FARUMDATA.DK> writes:
Nico> Subject: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapes at JPL
Nico> needed.
> Unfortunately, this data is stored on hundreds of
ancient
> nine-track tapes Are there any list members interested in
> assisting in the transfer of this data to "more modern media"?
Nico> Yep, I make my living from projects like that. It will not be
Nico> a problem to copy the data; but I dont have the foggiest idea
Nico> whether the data is "decodeable". The best way to save the
Nico> data, is to get a copy of the program which wrote the data in
Nico> the first place. I have the funny feeling that the data is
Nico> written in _huge_ blocks.
Actually, you'd want the data analysis programs. Unless that runs on
some really bizarre machine, there should be emulations available.
I wonder if it's a Cyber. Those of course still exist in reality,
as well as in emulation.
paul
11:43 a.m.
New subject: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapes at JPL needed. Vintagecomputers slated for demolition.
I wonder if it's a Cyber. Those of course still
exist in reality,
as well as in emulation.
Why do you think it was a CDC? JPL had no need for speed for these tapes.
William Donzelli
aw288 at osfn.org
12:01 p.m.
New subject: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapes at JPL needed. Vintagecomputers slated for demolition.
>>>> "William" == William
Donzelli <aw288 at osfn.org> writes:
> I wonder if it's a Cyber. Those of course
still exist in reality,
> as well as in emulation.
William> Why do you think it was a CDC? JPL had no need for speed for
William> these tapes.
For processing the data? Remember, I'm talking about the
postprocessing; it doesn't matter what system wrote the data.
Cybers were popular back then for people who expected to do serious
crunching, even if not all the time. That's the only reason I was
wondering -- it wasn't even as much as an assumption...
paul
12:48 p.m.
New subject: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapes at JPL needed. Vintagecomputers slated for demolition.
At 3:01 PM -0400 6/8/05, Paul Koning wrote:
I want to stay out of this as I'm too close to JPL, but... JPL did
not have any CDCs at the time. At JPL proper for spacecraft data
processing they had 3 IBM 360s [1st floor] and 3 Univac 1108s [2nd
floor? hazy memory] in the SFOC.
I don't know anything about these tapes in particular, but it is
possible they were recorded in analog right off the receivers at the
tracking stations (Madrid, Canberra, or Goldstone) and sent to the
Lab. Another alternative is that they were written by Modcomps off
of the comm link from the tracking stations [basement of SFOC]. Many
other possibilities also exist in the signal and data processing
chain. Folks familiar with that project would be best equipped to
answer. [I started in '77 on Voyager, aka MJS in some circles. I
never worked on any of the Pioneers.]
John
>>>> "William" == William Donzelli <aw288 at osfn.org> writes:
> I wonder if it's a Cyber. Those of
course still exist in reality,
> as well as in emulation.
William> Why do you think it was a CDC? JPL had no need for speed for
William> these tapes.
For processing the data? Remember, I'm talking about the
postprocessing; it doesn't matter what system wrote the data.
Cybers were popular back then for people who expected to do serious
crunching, even if not all the time. That's the only reason I was
wondering -- it wasn't even as much as an assumption...
paul
1:26 p.m.
New subject: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapes at JPL needed. Vintagecomputers slated for demolition.
I don't know anything about these tapes in
particular, but it is
possible they were recorded in analog right off the receivers at the
tracking stations (Madrid, Canberra, or Goldstone) and sent to the
Lab.
I think it was always done like this, correct? - redundant analog tape
machines coming off the redundant receivers. These tapes were then
processed into the digital data (getting rid of the fades, farts, and
burps from the radio).
I suspect all of the noises that keep popping up about unreadable tapes of
the space program have to do with these original analog telemetry
tapes. Nobody uses them anymore (have not for years).
RCS has a big HP tape transport - a seven foot rack with 12 channels (I
think). It records something like 1000 Hz down to DC. We have tried to
give it away for years (yes, speak up now if you want it - pick up only in
Providence), but have not found a single interested taker.
William Donzelli
aw288 at osfn.org
1:56 p.m.
New subject: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapes at JPL needed. Vintagecomputers slated for demolition.
At 4:26 PM -0400 6/8/05, William Donzelli wrote:
Don't know about always, but certainly for a long time.
I haven't been involved in this for quite some time, but IIRC the
MkIV receivers output digital, channelized (decommutated) data only,
no analog, no symbols, etc. The MkIIIs output at the symbol level,
so straddling the divide between analog and digital, no
decommutation, though. You still had to convert symbols to bits and
separate the channels. The MkIVs have been in use since the early
'90s (approximately). Maybe they've been replaced by now. Maybe I
have my version numbers mixed up but that's roughly the landscape as
it was when I left.
John
I don't
know anything about these tapes in particular, but it is
possible they were recorded in analog right off the receivers at the
tracking stations (Madrid, Canberra, or Goldstone) and sent to the
Lab.
I think it was always done like this, correct? - redundant analog tape
machines coming off the redundant receivers. These tapes were then
processed into the digital data (getting rid of the fades, farts, and
burps from the radio).
7089
days inactive
7093
days old
9 comments
6 participants
participants (6)
-
aw288＠osfn.org -
dundas＠caltech.edu -
jfoust＠threedee.com -
nico＠FARUMDATA.DK -
pkoning＠equallogic.com -
whdawson＠localisps.net