27 May
2015
27 May
'15
2:38 p.m.
Does anyone recognise these DEC cartridges?:
http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/deccartridge.jpg
Any details or knowledge of what systems they may have been used with?
They're definitely digital, note the logo on the nearer one on the right.
I can't recall ever having seen them. They're associated in this instance with
80s-era biomed analysis.
Also, anyone know what processor may have been used in a Becton Dickinson ARTIFACS 440
cell-sorting (FACS) rack?
We're speculating there may be an embedded LSI-11.
Rob and I are assessing some surplus/scrap equipment for rescue but haven't been on
site yet.
27 May
27 May
3:51 p.m.
If you move the camera to the right there may be a part number on the
label or the box it came in
On 27/05/2015 22:38, Brent Hilpert wrote:
Does anyone recognise these DEC cartridges?:
http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/deccartridge.jpg
Any details or knowledge of what systems they may have been used with?
They're definitely digital, note the logo on the nearer one on the right.
I can't recall ever having seen them. They're associated in this instance with
80s-era biomed analysis.
Also, anyone know what processor may have been used in a Becton Dickinson ARTIFACS 440
cell-sorting (FACS) rack?
We're speculating there may be an embedded LSI-11.
Rob and I are assessing some surplus/scrap equipment for rescue but haven't been on
site yet.
4:09 p.m.
On 2015-05-27 23:38, Brent Hilpert wrote:
Does anyone recognise these DEC cartridges?:
http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/deccartridge.jpg
Any details or knowledge of what systems they may have been used with?
They're definitely digital, note the logo on the nearer one on the right.
I can't recall ever having seen them. They're associated in this instance with
80s-era biomed analysis.
It's been a while since I saw one, but they look like RC25 cartridges.
Miserable drive...
Also, anyone know what processor may have been used in
a Becton Dickinson ARTIFACS 440 cell-sorting (FACS) rack?
We're speculating there may be an embedded LSI-11.
Rob and I are assessing some surplus/scrap equipment for rescue but haven't been on
site yet.
RC25 could have been found in both PDP-11 and VAXen. I think you only
had a Qbus controller for it, though. But it's MSCP.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
4:24 p.m.
On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 7:09 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:
Yep. Looks like RC25 carts
RC25 could have been found in both PDP-11 and VAXen. I
think you only had a
Qbus controller for it, though. But it's MSCP.
There's a Unibus controller for it. The RC25 came standard with the VAX-11/725.
-ethan
4:46 p.m.
On 2015-May-27, at 4:24 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 7:09 PM, Johnny Billquist
<bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:
Yep. Looks like RC25 carts
Thanks for the responses, Glen Slick provided a link to the manual, a pic we have of the
stuff shows a drive matching that in the manual, so yes, RC25:
Disk drive, dual platter - one fixed, one removable, 26MB per platter, ~ 8 inch disks.
The processor is nowhere in the pics though so we'll have to wait till on site to see
if it's still around.
RC25 could have been found in both PDP-11 and
VAXen. I think you only had a
Qbus controller for it, though. But it's MSCP.
There's a Unibus controller for it. The RC25 came standard with the VAX-11/725.
4:56 p.m.
On May 27, 2015, at 7:46 PM, Brent Hilpert <hilpert
at cs.ubc.ca> wrote:
Thanks for the responses, Glen Slick provided a link to the manual, a pic we have of the
stuff shows a drive matching that in the manual, so yes, RC25:
Disk drive, dual platter - one fixed, one removable, 26MB per platter, ~ 8 inch disks.
Ah yes. That made for a lot of fun in some operating systems, since it?s the only device
where powering down one unit also powers down a second one as a side effect. In RSTS, a
pile of machinery was implemented to keep people from shooting themselves into the foot
with that. If I remember right, part of that was to allow the system to freeze, so you
could have the system disk (boot disk) on the fixed platter and still be able to remove
the other platter if needed. This was done to allow selling RC25-only systems to a Navy,
for use on submarines where there isn?t much space.
paul
9:05 p.m.
Is that a vt330 on the side?
/P
On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 02:38:04PM -0700, Brent Hilpert wrote:
Does anyone recognise these DEC cartridges?:
http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/deccartridge.jpg
Any details or knowledge of what systems they may have been used with?
They're definitely digital, note the logo on the nearer one on the right.
I can't recall ever having seen them. They're associated in this instance with
80s-era biomed analysis.
Also, anyone know what processor may have been used in a Becton Dickinson ARTIFACS 440
cell-sorting (FACS) rack?
We're speculating there may be an embedded LSI-11.
Rob and I are assessing some surplus/scrap equipment for rescue but haven't been on
site yet.
9:25 p.m.
Likely I guess, but you're probably better at recognising them than I.
Couple more pics, including the rc25 drive:
http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/res/
More terminals below desks in the artifacs440 pic.
Could that be an empty Q-bus backplane above the RC25?
On 2015-May-27, at 9:05 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote:
Is that a vt330 on the side?
/P
On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 02:38:04PM -0700, Brent Hilpert wrote:
> Does anyone recognise these DEC cartridges?:
>
> http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/deccartridge.jpg
>
> Any details or knowledge of what systems they may have been used with?
> They're definitely digital, note the logo on the nearer one on the right.
> I can't recall ever having seen them. They're associated in this instance
with 80s-era biomed analysis.
>
> Also, anyone know what processor may have been used in a Becton Dickinson ARTIFACS
440 cell-sorting (FACS) rack?
> We're speculating there may be an embedded LSI-11.
>
> Rob and I are assessing some surplus/scrap equipment for rescue but haven't been
on site yet.
>
11:02 p.m.
On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 09:25:13PM -0700, Brent Hilpert wrote:
Likely I guess, but you're probably better at
recognising them than I.
Look quite a lot like it. It is what I would bring home from that lot.
Couple more pics, including the rc25 drive:
http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/res/
More terminals below desks in the artifacs440 pic.
Looks like vt220, but hard to tell.
Could that be an empty Q-bus backplane above the RC25?
Possible, not a DEC-enclosure though.
/P
On 2015-May-27, at 9:05 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote:
Is that a vt330 on the side?
/P
On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 02:38:04PM -0700, Brent Hilpert wrote:
> Does anyone recognise these DEC cartridges?:
>
> http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/deccartridge.jpg
>
> Any details or knowledge of what systems they may have been used with?
> They're definitely digital, note the logo on the nearer one on the right.
> I can't recall ever having seen them. They're associated in this instance
with 80s-era biomed analysis.
>
> Also, anyone know what processor may have been used in a Becton Dickinson ARTIFACS
440 cell-sorting (FACS) rack?
> We're speculating there may be an embedded LSI-11.
>
> Rob and I are assessing some surplus/scrap equipment for rescue but haven't been
on site yet.
>
30 May
30 May
6:27 p.m.
New subject: Rescue update: DEC RC-25s + / was Re: DEC cartridge ID
So Rob and I got onsite yesterday and ended up taking away a small haul of DEC equipment.
- Three RC-25 drives with a dozen-or-so cartridges. We know at least one drive works.
- We were quite excited to see two 11/83 boxes, one of which was working with one of the
RC-25s, running RT-11.
However when Rob got everything home and examined it, it turned out it was an 11/23 CPU
in the running box,
and the other was mostly empty of cards, with no CPU.
- A VT-330 terminal (left two other 330 displays, only one keyboard between the three of
them).
- 4-slot Q-bus backplane/rack unit, probably originally held the 11/23 CPU.
- Some extra/duplicate Q-bus device controller cards.
- RT-11 install media on floppy.
It was the data-collection end of the Becton-Dickinson FACS 440 equipment (Flourescent
Activated Cell Sorting), 1980s technology that been in use till not too long ago. All the
extra bits had been accumulated over time to keep the system going.
Sadly we had to leave the 440 rack which had two 5-6" X/Y CRT displays, 3KV power
supplies, the laser table with two water-cooled lasers, photo-multiplier tubes, optics,
etc.
9:54 p.m.
New subject: Rescue update: DEC RC-25s + / was Re: DEC cartridge ID
Great save!
On Sat, May 30, 2015 at 8:27 PM, Brent Hilpert <hilpert at cs.ubc.ca> wrote:
So Rob and I got onsite yesterday and ended up taking
away a small haul of
DEC equipment.
- Three RC-25 drives with a dozen-or-so cartridges. We know at
least one drive works.
- We were quite excited to see two 11/83 boxes, one of which was
working with one of the RC-25s, running RT-11.
However when Rob got everything home and examined it, it turned
out it was an 11/23 CPU in the running box,
and the other was mostly empty of cards, with no CPU.
- A VT-330 terminal (left two other 330 displays, only one
keyboard between the three of them).
- 4-slot Q-bus backplane/rack unit, probably originally held the
11/23 CPU.
- Some extra/duplicate Q-bus device controller cards.
- RT-11 install media on floppy.
It was the data-collection end of the Becton-Dickinson FACS 440 equipment
(Flourescent Activated Cell Sorting), 1980s technology that been in use
till not too long ago. All the extra bits had been accumulated over time to
keep the system going.
Sadly we had to leave the 440 rack which had two 5-6" X/Y CRT displays,
3KV power supplies, the laser table with two water-cooled lasers,
photo-multiplier tubes, optics, etc.
1 Jun
1 Jun
10:09 a.m.
New subject: Rescue update: DEC RC-25s + / was Re: DEC cartridge ID
Three RC-25 drives with a dozen-or-so cartridges. We
know at least one
drive works.
If you actually get an RC-25 drive working, I'd love to hear about it. I
have three RC25s (one actually in my 11/725 and two spares) and none of them
work. They were never very reliable drives, even when brand new, and are
possibly the worst drives DEC ever made. Fortunately for an 11/23 or 11/83
there are lots of alternative drives available.
Bob
2:26 p.m.
New subject: Rescue update: DEC RC-25s + / was Re: DEC cartridge ID
On 2015-Jun-01, at 10:09 AM, Robert Armstrong wrote:
Well, we know one works in that it was running while we were there. Booted RT-11 off the
fixed platter and then had to do some file deletion on cartridges.
As for the other two drives, we'll have to see as Rob finds time to check them. We
won't be surprised if they have problems as they may well have earlier drives replaced
by the functioning one. The power supply had been pulled out of one, but was still around.
There are two spare logic boards for the drives, but I expect problems are more likely to
be in the HDA area.
Should we end up finding a fault and succeeding in a repair, will let you know.
Three RC-25
drives with a dozen-or-so cartridges. We know at least one drive works.
If you actually get an RC-25 drive working, I'd love to hear about it. I
have three RC25s (one actually in my 11/725 and two spares) and none of them
work. They were never very reliable drives, even when brand new, and are
possibly the worst drives DEC ever made. Fortunately for an 11/23 or 11/83
there are lots of alternative drives available.
4 Jun
4 Jun
5:49 p.m.
New subject: Rescue update: DEC RC-25s + / was Re: DEC cartridge ID
On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 1:09 PM, Robert Armstrong <bob at jfcl.com> wrote:
If you actually get an RC-25 drive working, I'd
love to hear about it. I
have three RC25s (one actually in my 11/725 and two spares) and none of them
work. They were never very reliable drives, even when brand new, and are
possibly the worst drives DEC ever made.
Ain't that the truth. I had a 11/725 with a working RC25 back in the
1990s, and I've semi-recently replaced it with a different 11/725 that
did not come with a removable cartridge so I've not been able to spin
it up to test the internal platter. Hopefully it works, but if it
doesn't, (see below).
Fortunately for an 11/23 or 11/83 there are lots of
alternative drives available.
There are. Unfortunately, for Unibus machines (11/725 especially),
there are not as many alternatives.
One I've seen is to nibble a chunk out of the rim of the cover skin
(to prevent pinching) and run a BC-11-A Unibus ribbon cable out to a
BA-11 and stick any number of controllers in that, such as an
easy-to-find-but-power-hungry UDA50. Also good for adding more
serial, etc. Just put RAM in the CPU box and leave all the
peripherals in the external BA-11. Not supported by DEC, but it works
fine.
I've also heard of people using Emulex and other 3rd-party SMD and
ESDI controllers. Those aren't too expensive. Unibus SCSI, OTOH, is
not common, but a joy if you can find one.
-ethan
8:56 p.m.
New subject: Rescue update: DEC RC-25s + / was Re: DEC cartridge ID
Ethan Dicks [ethan.dicks at gmail.com] wrote:
did not come with a removable cartridge so I've not been able to spin it up
Yes, one of the annoyances of the RC25 is that you can't spin it up w/o the
removable platter in place. I have only one cartridge myself, and it's probably bad.
Somebody needs to come up with a hack to spin up the Winchester part alone (hint, hint
:-)
One I've seen is to nibble a chunk out of the rim
of the cover skin (to prevent pinching) and run a BC-11-A
Unibus ribbon cable out to a BA-11 and stick any number of controllers in that
Doesn't the 725 have one of the regular bulkhead connector panels on the back? The
one with the modular screw in plates? If so, ISTR that there's a cable clamp one that
will clear a BC11 cable.
In any case, I have no need for such foolishness :-) I have a perfectly good 730 too,
with a BA11-K expander in the next rack. It works great, and that configuration (with the
730 instead of the 725) was even supported although uncommon. I should go out in the
garage and check how the UNIBUS cable is routed for you.
Besides, the cool thing (for me, at least) about the 725 was the packaging. Any
replacement drive would have to fit inside the original box to suit my taste.
The best option I've come up with is an SMD UNIBUS controller (I have just exactly
one!) and a small SMD drive. There were some small SMD drives that I think would fit
inside the 725 case. The front panel wouldn't be right, but it's better than
nothing. As you said, SCSI would be better, but I don't have a UNIBUS controller.
What I'd really like is to build a "LESI disk emulator" that could just
plug into the AZTEC controller, but as far as I've ever been able to determine, DEC
never documented LESI. Or at least none of the documentation ever escaped.
BTW, my 725 is missing the outer sheet metal skin. The previous owner apparently
didn't think it was important and discarded it. If anybody happens to have an extra
VAX-11/725 skin, I'd love to know.
Bob
6 Jun
6 Jun
2:39 p.m.
New subject: Rescue update: DEC RC-25s + / was Re: DEC cartridge ID
it's true very little LESI documentation escaped...But the klesi schematic
did. and it's well commented. lots of descriptive signal names. The
hardware to interface to it is almost trivial. I took a couple of hours
looking over the schematic and have written a couple of pages describing
how to make it work. Happy to send to anyone who wants it.
Writing MSCP emulation is beyond my skill level. But i can read a
schematic.
joe
On Thu, Jun 4, 2015 at 11:56 PM, Robert Armstrong <bob at jfcl.com> wrote:
Ethan Dicks
[ethan.dicks at gmail.com] wrote:
did not come with a removable cartridge so I've not been able to spin it
up
Yes, one of the annoyances of the RC25 is that you can't spin it up w/o
the removable platter in place. I have only one cartridge myself, and it's
probably bad. Somebody needs to come up with a hack to spin up the
Winchester part alone (hint, hint :-)
One I've seen is to nibble a chunk out of the
rim of the cover skin (to
prevent pinching) and run a BC-11-A
Unibus ribbon cable out to a BA-11 and stick any
number of controllers
in that
Doesn't the 725 have one of the regular bulkhead connector panels on the
back? The one with the modular screw in plates? If so, ISTR that there's
a cable clamp one that will clear a BC11 cable.
In any case, I have no need for such foolishness :-) I have a perfectly
good 730 too, with a BA11-K expander in the next rack. It works great, and
that configuration (with the 730 instead of the 725) was even supported
although uncommon. I should go out in the garage and check how the UNIBUS
cable is routed for you.
Besides, the cool thing (for me, at least) about the 725 was the
packaging. Any replacement drive would have to fit inside the original box
to suit my taste.
The best option I've come up with is an SMD UNIBUS controller (I have
just exactly one!) and a small SMD drive. There were some small SMD drives
that I think would fit inside the 725 case. The front panel wouldn't be
right, but it's better than nothing. As you said, SCSI would be better,
but I don't have a UNIBUS controller.
What I'd really like is to build a "LESI disk emulator" that could just
plug into the AZTEC controller, but as far as I've ever been able to
determine, DEC never documented LESI. Or at least none of the
documentation ever escaped.
BTW, my 725 is missing the outer sheet metal skin. The previous owner
apparently didn't think it was important and discarded it. If anybody
happens to have an extra VAX-11/725 skin, I'd love to know.
Bob
7 Jun
7 Jun
10:03 a.m.
New subject: Rescue update: DEC RC-25s + / was Re: DEC cartridge ID
it's true very little LESI documentation
escaped...But the klesi schematic
did. and it's well commented. lots of descriptive signal names. The
hardware to interface to it is almost trivial. I took a couple of hours
looking over the schematic and have written a couple of pages describing
how to make it work. Happy to send to anyone who wants it.
Writing MSCP emulation is beyond my skill level. But i can read a
schematic.
Is the KLESI printset on-line anywhere? I couldn't quickly find it on bitsavers
(although the RC25 printset is there, but I suspect most RC25 problems
are mechanical, not electronic)
-tony
10:54 a.m.
New subject: Rescue update: DEC RC-25s + / was Re: DEC cartridge ID
I downloaded the rc-25 set from bitsavers. The klesi (q and u) prints were at the end.
Joe
On Jun 7, 2015, at 1:03 PM, tony duell <ard at
p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
it's true very little LESI documentation
escaped...But the klesi schematic
did. and it's well commented. lots of descriptive signal names. The
hardware to interface to it is almost trivial. I took a couple of hours
looking over the schematic and have written a couple of pages describing
how to make it work. Happy to send to anyone who wants it.
Writing MSCP emulation is beyond my skill level. But i can read a
schematic.
Is the KLESI printset on-line anywhere? I couldn't quickly find it on bitsavers
(although the RC25 printset is there, but I suspect most RC25 problems
are mechanical, not electronic)
-tony
11:11 a.m.
New subject: Rescue update: DEC RC-25s + / was Re: DEC cartridge ID
I found a file in my archive I got somewhere... I thought it was bitsavers.
Mp01876_klesi_engrdrws_aug84.pdf
Joe
On Jun 7, 2015, at 1:03 PM, tony duell <ard at
p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
it's true very little LESI documentation
escaped...But the klesi schematic
did. and it's well commented. lots of descriptive signal names. The
hardware to interface to it is almost trivial. I took a couple of hours
looking over the schematic and have written a couple of pages describing
how to make it work. Happy to send to anyone who wants it.
Writing MSCP emulation is beyond my skill level. But i can read a
schematic.
Is the KLESI printset on-line anywhere? I couldn't quickly find it on bitsavers
(although the RC25 printset is there, but I suspect most RC25 problems
are mechanical, not electronic)
-tony
8 Jun
8 Jun
6:27 a.m.
New subject: Rescue update: DEC RC-25s + / was Re: DEC cartridge ID
tony duell [mailto:ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] wrote:
Is the KLESI printset on-line anywhere?
The schematics are online (sounds like they've been found now), but that
only tells you the electrical interface between the controller and the
drive. That part's pretty simple (which is why it looks attractive to build
a LESI disk emulator gizmo), but it doesn't tell you anything about the
protocol the drive and host use to talk to each other. Another cctalk
reader has suggested privately that the drives actually speak MSCP directly,
and that's the software interface between the two. I guess I'm going to
have to read up on MSCP - I don't know enough about it to know if that's
true or even possible.
Bob
7:27 a.m.
New subject: Rescue update: DEC RC-25s + / was Re: DEC cartridge ID
Bob
Take a look at the tu81 manual on bitsavers ek_tu81-tm_002_nov85.pdf
The appendix describes the m8739 unibus klesi. It's tmscp but it applies to mscp as
well.
Joe
On Jun 8, 2015, at 9:27 AM, "Robert Armstrong" <bob at jfcl.com> wrote:
tony duell
[mailto:ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] wrote:
Is the KLESI printset on-line anywhere?
The schematics are online (sounds like they've been found now), but that
only tells you the electrical interface between the controller and the
drive. That part's pretty simple (which is why it looks attractive to build
a LESI disk emulator gizmo), but it doesn't tell you anything about the
protocol the drive and host use to talk to each other. Another cctalk
reader has suggested privately that the drives actually speak MSCP directly,
and that's the software interface between the two. I guess I'm going to
have to read up on MSCP - I don't know enough about it to know if that's
true or even possible.
Bob
7 Jun
7 Jun
6:44 p.m.
New subject: Rescue update: DEC RC-25s + / was Re: DEC cartridge ID
On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 3:56 PM, Robert Armstrong <bob at jfcl.com> wrote:
That should be trivial. I've never laid hands on an RC25, but there
must be a microswitch that detects when a cartridge is installed, and
is accessible for bodging...?
Mike
http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'
Ethan Dicks
[ethan.dicks at gmail.com] wrote:
did not come with a removable cartridge so I've not been able to spin it up
Yes, one of the annoyances of the RC25 is that you can't spin it up w/o the
removable platter in place. I have only one cartridge
myself, and it's probably bad. Somebody needs to come up with a hack to spin up the
Winchester part alone (hint, hint :-)
7:22 p.m.
New subject: Rescue update: DEC RC-25s + / was Re: DEC cartridge ID
On Sun, Jun 7, 2015 at 9:44 PM, Mike Ross <tmfdmike at gmail.com> wrote:
That should be trivial. I've never laid hands on
an RC25, but there
must be a microswitch that detects when a cartridge is installed, and
is accessible for bodging...?
The problem is if you would do that, the heads on the empty cartridge
would load and smack together. The RC25 has one motor spindle, one
positioner, and two pairs of heads. I suppose if you found a way to
wedge the upper and lower arms of the removable cartridge so the heads
weren't damaged, you could use the fixed platter alone?
If you didn't, it would be as bad as forcing an RL02 or an RK05 to
load with no platter mounted.
-ethan
8 Jun
8 Jun
6:21 a.m.
New subject: Rescue update: DEC RC-25s + / was Re: DEC cartridge ID
Ethan Dicks [mailto:ethan.dicks at gmail.com] wrote:
I suppose if you found a way to wedge the upper and lower arms of
the removable cartridge so the heads weren't damaged, ...
I think it's even harder than that - the firmware in the drive will spin down if it
thinks the removable cartridge isn't working. Otherwise you could just put a bad
cartridge in there and let it spin up, and empirically that doesn't work.
Bob
7:02 a.m.
New subject: Rescue update: DEC RC-25s + / was Re: DEC cartridge ID
On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 2:22 PM, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Jun 7, 2015 at 9:44 PM, Mike Ross <tmfdmike
at gmail.com> wrote:
Ugh OK, I've never laid hands on one as I said; for some reason I
thought the cartridge on these was a sealed unit containing the heads,
like some IBM drives, e.g. 3340...
Mike
http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'
That should be trivial. I've never laid hands
on an RC25, but there
must be a microswitch that detects when a cartridge is installed, and
is accessible for bodging...?
The problem is if you would do that, the heads on the empty cartridge
would load and smack together. The RC25 has one motor spindle, one
positioner, and two pairs of heads. I suppose if you found a way to
wedge the upper and lower arms of the removable cartridge so the heads
weren't damaged, you could use the fixed platter alone?
If you didn't, it would be as bad as forcing an RL02 or an RK05 to
load with no platter mounted.
7:06 a.m.
New subject: Rescue update: DEC RC-25s + / was Re: DEC cartridge ID
On Jun 8, 2015, at 10:02 AM, Mike Ross <tmfdmike at
gmail.com> wrote:
No, and I don?t think DEC ever made any drives like that. The removable cartridge drives
are all variations on the RK05: one or more platters wrapped in a plastic shell that has
an aperture for the heads to enter. The heads are in the drive.
The RC25 was one of the last cartridge drives (before fixed drives came back in small
sizes and exploding capacity), somewhat interesting because of its compact size, and very
odd and hard to use because the designers threw in a fixed platter. Perhaps they thought
that it was a good idea because it gave you double the capacity at modest extra cost, but
in practice it made for a major pain in the software and operationally.
paul
...
Ugh OK, I've never laid hands on one as I said; for some reason I
thought the cartridge on these was a sealed unit containing the heads,
like some IBM drives, e.g. 3340?
7:26 a.m.
New subject: Rescue update: DEC RC-25s + / was Re: DEC cartridge ID
On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 2:06 AM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
Hmmm IBM used exactly the same trick - removable platter, with a fixed
platter below it - in 1969 with rather larger platters on their 5440
disk for the System/3... I have one of these; have had various things
to fix (some still unfixed!) but the disks have been entirely
reliable. Cartridges look very similar to RL02...
http://mit-a.com/Images/big/MFCM%20and%202%20disk%20drives.jpg
http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'
On Jun 8, 2015, at 10:02 AM, Mike Ross
<tmfdmike at gmail.com> wrote:
No, and I don?t think DEC ever made any drives like that. The removable cartridge drives
are all variations on the RK05: one or more platters wrapped in a plastic shell that has
an aperture for the heads to enter. The heads are in the drive.
The RC25 was one of the last cartridge drives (before fixed drives came back in small
sizes and exploding capacity), somewhat interesting because of its compact size, and very
odd and hard to use because the designers threw in a fixed platter. Perhaps they thought
that it was a good idea because it gave you double the capacity at modest extra cost, but
in practice it made for a major pain in the software and operationally. ...
Ugh OK, I've never laid hands on one as I said; for some reason I
thought the cartridge on these was a sealed unit containing the heads,
like some IBM drives, e.g. 3340? 
7:54 a.m.
New subject: Rescue update: DEC RC-25s + / was Re: DEC cartridge ID
On Jun 8, 2015, at 07:26, Mike Ross <tmfdmike at
gmail.com> wrote:
Hmmm IBM used exactly the same trick - removable platter, with a fixed
platter below it - in 1969 with rather larger platters on their 5440
disk for the System/3... I have one of these; have had various things
to fix (some still unfixed!) but the disks have been entirely
reliable. Cartridges look very similar to RL02...
http://mit-a.com/Images/big/MFCM%20and%202%20disk%20drives.jpg
I haven't seen one of those drives in person, but in the picture it looks like they
have about ten pounds of machined aluminum just in the latches that keep the light plastic
pack dust cover from flying away. Heck, those latches look suitable for space station
docking port latches. :)
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/
8:31 a.m.
New subject: Rescue update: DEC RC-25s + / was Re: DEC cartridge ID
The RC25 was one of the last cartridge drives (before
fixed drives came back in small sizes and exploding
capacity), somewhat interesting because of its compact size, and very odd and hard to use
because the
designers threw in a fixed platter. Perhaps they thought that it was a good idea because
it gave you double the
capacity at modest extra cost, but in practice it made for a major pain in the software
and operationally.
Many other compainess pulled a similar trick...
The CDC 'Phoenix' (is that a 9648 or something) had a removeable pack containing
one platter and
3 fixed platters. Capacity was 16MBytes per surface (or so), so the removeable pack stored
16Mbytes)
(one data surface, one servo surface), the fixed part was 80 MBytes (5 data, 1 servo
surface).
Plessey made an RK05-a-like (same interface, linked to their version of the RK11-D, took
same
cartridges, same format, etc) with a fixed platter as well as the cartridge. Of course the
HP7900 was
like that too.
I never really liked the idea. The main problem was you lost access to the fixed disk(s)
while changing the
removeable one.
-tony
1:17 p.m.
New subject: Rescue update: DEC RC-25s + / was Re: DEC cartridge ID
Yeah, there were a few CDC drives like that ... I encountered a few "Hawk"
drives once on an old Alpha Micro S-100 machine long ago; I believe it
was, five megs fixed, five megs removable?
The pack was about the size of a garbage can lid and I believe the unit
spun them up to around 2400 RPM or so ...
Those are the oldest, largest magnetic disk drives I have ever seen in
operation and it was very impressive to me at the time! So loud just
running and a very definitive "clunk" from the head assembly when it
started moving!
Best,
Sean
On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 11:31 AM, tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
The RC25 was one of the last cartridge drives
(before fixed drives came
back in small sizes and exploding
capacity), somewhat interesting because of its
compact size, and very
odd and hard to use because the
designers threw in a fixed platter. Perhaps they
thought that it was a
good idea because it gave you double the
capacity at modest extra cost, but in practice it
made for a major pain
in the software and operationally.
Many other compainess pulled a similar trick...
The CDC 'Phoenix' (is that a 9648 or something) had a removeable pack
containing one platter and
3 fixed platters. Capacity was 16MBytes per surface (or so), so the
removeable pack stored 16Mbytes)
(one data surface, one servo surface), the fixed part was 80 MBytes (5
data, 1 servo surface).
Plessey made an RK05-a-like (same interface, linked to their version of
the RK11-D, took same
cartridges, same format, etc) with a fixed platter as well as the
cartridge. Of course the HP7900 was
like that too.
I never really liked the idea. The main problem was you lost access to the
fixed disk(s) while changing the
removeable one.
-tony
7 Jun
7 Jun
10:08 p.m.
New subject: Rescue update: DEC RC-25s + / was Re: DEC cartridge ID
That should be trivial. I've never laid hands on
an RC25, but there
must be a microswitch that detects when a cartridge is installed, and
is accessible for bodging...?
Yes, and don't do it!
In every fixed/removeable drive I have worked on (OK, never an RC25, but...)
the heads for both the fixed and removeable disks are on the same positioner
carriage. With the result that if you load the heads without a removeable
cartridge in place, those heads will touch each other, which is a good
way to ruin them.
-tony
10:50 p.m.
New subject: Rescue update: DEC RC-25s + / was Re: DEC cartridge ID
On 6/7/2015 11:08 PM, tony duell wrote:
Is there no way to lock those heads in place?
Ben.
That should be trivial. I've never laid hands
on an RC25, but there
must be a microswitch that detects when a cartridge is installed, and
is accessible for bodging...?
Yes, and don't do it!
In every fixed/removeable drive I have worked on (OK, never an RC25, but...)
the heads for both the fixed and removeable disks are on the same positioner
carriage. With the result that if you load the heads without a removeable
cartridge in place, those heads will touch each other, which is a good
way to ruin them.
-tony
8 Jun
8 Jun
6:15 a.m.
New subject: Rescue update: DEC RC-25s + / was Re: DEC cartridge ID
On 2015-06-08 07:50, ben wrote:
On 6/7/2015 11:08 PM, tony duell wrote:
Is there no way to lock those heads in place?
"on the same positioner carriage".
Sure you can lock the heads in place. In which case the headers for the
fixed disk are also locked in place.
Johnny
That should be trivial. I've never laid hands
on an RC25, but there
must be a microswitch that detects when a cartridge is installed, and
is accessible for bodging...?
Yes, and don't do it!
In every fixed/removeable drive I have worked on (OK, never an RC25,
but...)
the heads for both the fixed and removeable disks are on the same
positioner
carriage. With the result that if you load the heads without a removeable
cartridge in place, those heads will touch each other, which is a good
way to ruin them.
-tony
5 Jun
5 Jun
10:31 a.m.
New subject: Unibus SCSI - was Re: Rescue update: DEC RC-25s + / was Re: DEC cartridge ID
On 2015-06-04 8:49 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
... Unibus SCSI, OTOH, is
not common, but a joy if you can find one.
This one ends in 8 hours.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/AVIV-Emulex-UC07-SCSI-Quad-Wide-Q-Bus-Digital-Equip…
--Toby
-ethan
10:52 a.m.
New subject: Unibus SCSI - was Re: Rescue update: DEC RC-25s + / was Re: DEC cartridge ID
The UC07 manual on Bitsavers shows this as a Qbus adapter - although I'd
sure think it was Unibus from the name. The seller calls it out as Qbus
and the documents back him/her up.
On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 5:31 PM, Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au> wrote:
On 2015-06-04 8:49 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
--
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School <http://ischool.uw.edu>
Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal <http://tribunalvoices.org>
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab <http://vsdesign.org>
University of Washington
There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."
... Unibus SCSI, OTOH, is
not common, but a joy if you can find one.
This one ends in 8 hours.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/AVIV-Emulex-UC07-SCSI-Quad-Wide-Q-Bus-Digital-Equip…
--Toby
-ethan
11:05 a.m.
New subject: Unibus SCSI - was Re: Rescue update: DEC RC-25s + / was Re: DEC cartridge ID
On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 1:52 PM, Ian S. King <isking at uw.edu> wrote:
The UC07 manual on Bitsavers shows this as a Qbus
adapter - although I'd
sure think it was Unibus from the name. The seller calls it out as Qbus
and the documents back him/her up.
Yeah. I have one. It's Qbus. Nothing wrong with it - that's about
the going price from what I've seen, but it's not Unibus.
-ethan
On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 5:31 PM, Toby Thain <toby at
telegraphics.com.au> wrote:
> On 2015-06-04 8:49 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
>
>> ... Unibus SCSI, OTOH, is
>> not common, but a joy if you can find one.
>
> This one ends in 8 hours.
>
>
http://www.ebay.com/itm/AVIV-Emulex-UC07-SCSI-Quad-Wide-Q-Bus-Digital-Equip…
-ethan
3:38 p.m.
New subject: Actually QBus SCSI - was Re: Unibus SCSI - was Re: Rescue update: DEC RC-25s + / was Re: DEC cartridge ID
On 2015-06-05 2:05 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 1:52 PM, Ian S. King <isking
at uw.edu> wrote:
Oops, it's been a long day... I even own one, I should have known better :)
--Toby
The UC07 manual on Bitsavers shows this as a Qbus
adapter - although I'd
sure think it was Unibus from the name. The seller calls it out as Qbus
and the documents back him/her up.
Yeah. I have one. It's Qbus. Nothing wrong with it - that's about
the going price from what I've seen, but it's not Unibus.
-ethan
On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 5:31 PM, Toby Thain
<toby at telegraphics.com.au> wrote:
> On 2015-06-04 8:49 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
>
>> ... Unibus SCSI, OTOH, is
>> not common, but a joy if you can find one.
>
> This one ends in 8 hours.
>
>
http://www.ebay.com/itm/AVIV-Emulex-UC07-SCSI-Quad-Wide-Q-Bus-Digital-Equip…
-ethan
3485
days inactive
3497
days old
36 comments
16 participants
participants (16)
-
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca -
bob＠jfcl.com -
bqt＠update.uu.se -
ethan.dicks＠gmail.com -
hilpert＠cs.ubc.ca -
isking＠uw.edu -
joe.lang.0000＠gmail.com -
nf6x＠nf6x.net -
paulkoning＠comcast.net -
pontus＠Update.UU.SE -
rodsmallwood52＠btinternet.com -
scaron＠umich.edu -
tmfdmike＠gmail.com -
toby＠telegraphics.com.au -
useddec＠gmail.com