2 May
2003
2 May
'03
11:43 a.m.
From: Joe <rigdonj(a)cfl.rr.com>
vacuum advance on the distributor would also qualify.
>From: "Ethan Dicks"
<erd_6502(a)yahoo.com>
>
>--- "Dwight K. Elvey" <dwightk.elvey(a)amd.com> wrote:
>> Hi
>> An interesting side note. The power steering of your
>> auto is an example of an analog fluid amplifier.
>> Dwight
>
>I don't think _my_ auto (1968 Beetle) is an example of that. :-)
Do you mean that it doesn't have hydraulic brakes? :-) I expect that the
Joe
Hi
Hydraulic brakes don't amplify unless they use a booster.
It is true that most drum brakes amplify when stopping while
moving forward.
Many cars of this time frame may not have a vacuum advance.
I know my Fiat Spider doesn't( I think the VW's did though ).
Still, most any auto is just full of analog computing elements.
Dwight
2 May
2 May
11:52 a.m.
New subject: OT computerless classic cars (was Re: Heathkit EC-1)
--- "Dwight K. Elvey" <dwightk.elvey(a)amd.com> wrote:
Many cars of this time frame may not have a vacuum
advance.
I know my Fiat Spider doesn't( I think the VW's did though ).
Depends on the exact model and year. Many do; some do not.
Still, most any auto is just full of analog computing
elements.
The carburetor is full of them. EFI (Bosch Electronic Fuel Injection)
was available on "Type IVs" (Squarebacks and Fastbacks) in the late
1960s, then later on MicroBuses (like my 1975 and 1976 ones). It's
clearly an analog computer with a network of sensors, comparators
and actuators. There's even instructions floating around on how to
do component-level diagnosis.
-ethan
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com
12:11 p.m.
New subject: OT computerless classic cars (was Re: Heathkit EC-1)
Still, most
any auto is just full of analog computing elements.
The carburetor is full of them.
EFI (Bosch Electronic Fuel Injection)
was available on "Type IVs" (Squarebacks and Fastbacks) in the late
1960s, then later on MicroBuses (like my 1975 and 1976 ones).
It's
clearly an analog computer with a network of sensors, comparators
and actuators. There's even instructions floating around on how to
do component-level diagnosis.
They were fun.
A friend used to put 1968 Type 3 fool injection on 2180 engines (the
largest that you could expand the 1600 engine without significant
machining) in his early 60s VW buses. He was able to trick the computer
into handling the larger displacement properly by messing with some of the
inputs (particularly the head temperature sender)
12:18 p.m.
New subject: OT computerless classic cars (was Re: Heathkit EC-1)
--- "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" <cisin(a)xenosoft.com> wrote:
That would be the "Type IIIs" (Squarebacks and Fastbacks)...
Oops... right you are (never had one myself and slipped a cog).
Still, most any auto is just full of analog computing
elements.
..."Type IVs" (Squarebacks and Fastbacks) in the late 1960s,
A friend used to put 1968 Type 3 fool injection...
LOL! I'm imagining a stream of compressed, vaporized politicians
squirting into the combustion chamber. :-)
-ethan
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com
12:53 p.m.
New subject: OT computerless classic cars (was Re: Heathkit EC-1)
--- "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)"
<cisin(a)xenosoft.com> wrote:
> > > Still, most any auto is just full of analog computing elements.
> > ..."Type IVs" (Squarebacks and Fastbacks) in the late 1960s,
> That would be the "Type IIIs" (Squarebacks and Fastbacks)...
I think somebody might had missed a shift. The old bug autosticks
came with manual box and clutch, has a sensitive sensor
built into shifter handle (according what I see in bug/bus aircooled
newsgroups), touch it effectively "pushes clutch in" instead of your
left foot. It's electronics/vacuum operated and very crankerous to
maintain.
Chrysler is working on and patented number of them on an
"automanualic" using clutches instead of converter. I'm watching
that with keen interest. It's there in www.allpar.com
Oops... right you are (never had one myself and slipped a cog).
A friend used to put 1968 Type 3 fool
injection...
LOL! I'm imagining a stream of compressed, vaporized politicians
squirting into the combustion chamber. :-)
-ethan
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com
1:25 p.m.
New subject: OT computerless classic cars (was Re: Heathkit EC-1)
> --- "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)"
<cisin(a)xenosoft.com> wrote:
> > > > Still, most any auto is just full of analog computing elements.
> > > ..."Type IVs" (Squarebacks and Fastbacks) in the late 1960s,
> > That would be the "Type IIIs" (Squarebacks and Fastbacks)...
On
Fri, 2 May 2003 jpero(a)sympatico.ca wrote:
I think somebody might had missed a shift. The old
bug autosticks
Certainly. But the three lines above, that you are replying to, are
referring not to the Awful Shit Stick, but to the Botch Electronic Fool
Injection. Which was introduced in the Type 3s (Squareback/Fastback) in
1968, and were NOT available in the 1960s in Type 1 (bug), Type 2 (Bus),
or Type 4. The "success" of EFI in the Type 3s led to the use of it in
other models in the 1970s. For example, in about 1972, the bus switched
from carbs over to using the same engine as the Type 4,
with fool
injection.
By the mid 1970s, smog requirements had made carburetors so complex and
temperamental that even the most trivial problem was a real hassle.
By the end of the 1960s, the Type 3 was available with a REAL automatic
transmission. (In the U.S., the bug was the only model that ever had the
Awful Shit Stick.)
I think somebody might had missed a shift. The old
bug autosticks
> came with manual box and clutch, has a sensitive sensor
> built into shifter handle (according what I see in bug/bus aircooled
> newsgroups),
Newsgroups are a great source of information. Removing the engine
yourself is even better.
touch it effectively "pushes clutch in"
instead of your
left foot. It's electronics/vacuum operated and very crankerous to
maintain.
Awful Shit Stick/"Auto Stick Shift" had a torque convertor of some sort,
NOT a clutch (pressure plate and friction disc). Once you got to the
transmission itself, it was, indeed, manual. But it was only 3? speed,
NOT the "normal" 4 speed manual of all of the other VWs.
Chrysler is working on and patented number of them on
an
"automanualic" using clutches instead of converter. I'm watching
that with keen interest. It's there in www.allpar.com
With significantly more engine power than the bug had, it certainly could
have worked.
1:55 p.m.
New subject: OT Vaporized politicians (was OT computerless classic cars)
> --- "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)"
<cisin(a)xenosoft.com> wrote:
> > A friend used to put 1968 Type 3 fool injection...
>
> LOL! I'm imagining a stream of compressed, vaporized politicians
> squirting into the combustion chamber. :-)
>
> -ethan
Someone ought to patent that processes along with a big vacuum,
perhaps controlled by a PDP-11/44, to collect them all for such
processing. Now that's what I call cleaning up the government! ;-)
Along similar lines, who wants to invest in the production of effigies
(noose or hot tar included) and voodoo dolls (pins included) that look
like politicians? Perhaps a classic computer could be used to control
an automated order and production system. Someone fills out a web
form, makes a payment, selects a politicrat, and a effigy/doll bearing
that politicrat's image is produced. Perfect for 4th of July parades
in the US, Guy Fawkes day celebrations in England, etc.
--
Copyright (C) 2003 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals:
All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature &
rdd(a)rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such
http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty.
3:39 p.m.
New subject: OT Vaporized politicians (was OT computerless classic cars)
On Fri, 2 May 2003, R. D. Davis wrote:
Along similar lines, who wants to invest in the
production of effigies
(noose or hot tar included) and voodoo dolls (pins included) that look
like politicians? Perhaps a classic computer could be used to control
an automated order and production system. Someone fills out a web
form, makes a payment, selects a politicrat, and a effigy/doll bearing
that politicrat's image is produced. Perfect for 4th of July parades
in the US, Guy Fawkes day celebrations in England, etc.
The effigy can be in ASCII art no less!
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
3 May
3 May
7:10 p.m.
New subject: MicroVAX4000/5050A drive sleds
Just acquired a VAX 4000/505A (thanks Paul!) with no disks installed -
anyone got the details for adding a raw DSSI disk to one of these
things ; the chasis has a drive drive backplane at the top with 4
edge connectors, into which a drive sled of some form slots in.
I need to knock up whatever is on the sleds, drive LEDs & switches.
Unless anyone has some excess sleds that I could liberate?...
Ohhh, wonder if the MDS pils of docs has any details on this - off to
look now :)
ta
greg
12:12 p.m.
New subject: OT computerless classic cars (was Re: Heathkit EC-1)
I think somebody might had missed a shift. The old
bug autosticks
came with manual box and clutch, has a sensitive sensor
built into shifter handle (according what I see in bug/bus aircooled
newsgroups), touch it effectively "pushes clutch in" instead of your
left foot. It's electronics/vacuum operated and very crankerous to
maintain.
This sounds like the Morris 'Manumatic' that was fitted to some of their
cars in the 1960s (I think). It was a part electrical, part mechanical
system that automattically controlled the clutch _and engine speed_ when
changing gear (shifting). There were synchroniser contacts in the clutch
unit, a vacuum servo to operate the clutch release mechansism, and
another servo that connected to the throttle linkage to control the
engine speed. I have the shop manual (I would, right :-)) and it contains
considerable detail as to how it works.
Another strange transmission was the Renault Electroshift. This had a
speed sensor which was connected to a relay box. That controlled an
electromagnetic clutch (from what I can tell, this was not an electrical
release for a conventional clutch), and a motor/solenoid assembly
connected to the gear shift forks in the gearbox. I have the shop manual
for that too, but it's a module-swapper guide with no details as to what
goes on inside the units. I would love to obtain an old relay box so I
could pull it apart and reverse-engineer it (for interest, of course).
Finally, for strange transmissions, there's the 'Roverdrive', fitted to
the Rover 105R. It consists of (starting at the engine) : A torque
converter. A convetnional clutch. A 2 speed and reverse (I think)
gearbox. An overdrive unit, which is controlled automatically by a speed
sensor.
Chrysler is working on and patented number of them on
an
"automanualic" using clutches instead of converter. I'm watching
that with keen interest. It's there in www.allpar.com
As I'v ejust mentioned, automatics without a torque converter were built
by Renault in the 1960s. I wonder what they've changed...
> LOL! I'm imagining a stream of compressed,
vaporized politicians
> squirting into the combustion chamber. :-)
That is surely the best use for politicians :-). It gives a whole new
meaning to the term 'hot air engine'...
-tony
2:45 p.m.
New subject: OT computerless classic cars (was Re: Heathkit EC-1)
Tony Duell wrote:
Another strange transmission was the Renault
Electroshift. This had a
speed sensor which was connected to a relay box. That controlled an
electromagnetic clutch (from what I can tell, this was not an electrical
release for a conventional clutch), and a motor/solenoid assembly
connected to the gear shift forks in the gearbox. I have the shop manual
for that too, but it's a module-swapper guide with no details as to what
goes on inside the units. I would love to obtain an old relay box so I
could pull it apart and reverse-engineer it (for interest, of course)
Used to own an R-10 Renault with that transmission. Another interesting variant
was the American Motor's E-stick. From Canadian Motoring.com:
"In the transmission department, AMC had the industry's widest
range of offerings. The Classic could have a regular three-speed
manual, with optional overdrive; a three speed automatic; an
"E-stick" semi-automatic transmission in which there was no clutch
pedal (when the shift lever was touched it automatically disengaged
the clutch, and the driver just moved the lever from gear to gear);
and "Twin-Stick" overdrive engaged by a separate console-mounted
lever."
Drove one once... Quite the odd beast.
Jim
2 May
2 May
12:47 p.m.
New subject: OT computerless classic cars (was Re: Heathkit EC-1)
From: Ethan Dicks <erd_6502(a)yahoo.com>
Subject: OT computerless classic cars (was Re: Heathkit EC-1)
To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org
Reply-to: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org
Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 16:50:53 -0700 (PDT)
--- "Dwight K. Elvey"
<dwightk.elvey(a)amd.com> wrote:
I did see and knew there were EFI bugs as well from that era. Very
good & reliable, what is troublesome is those guys doesn't heed the
manuals and keep hoses in good repair.
Gee, I rather go with injection (dependable designs is a given) of
any types over the carbs (had second hand experience w/ my parents
dealing with an toyota 90 tercel w/ dying carb very recently. Seems
very rare few knew how to do a carb right especially those crankerous
toyota carb or like.
Cheers,
Wizard
Many cars of this time frame may not have a
vacuum advance.
I know my Fiat Spider doesn't( I think the VW's did though ).
Depends on the exact model and year. Many do; some do not.
Still, most any auto is just full of analog
computing elements.
The carburetor is full of them. EFI (Bosch Electronic Fuel Injection)
was available on "Type IVs" (Squarebacks and Fastbacks) in the late
1960s, then later on MicroBuses (like my 1975 and 1976 ones). It's
clearly an analog computer with a network of sensors, comparators
and actuators. There's even instructions floating around on how to
do component-level diagnosis.
-ethan
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com
4:05 p.m.
New subject: OT computerless classic cars (was Re: Heathkit EC-1)
On Fri, 2 May 2003, Ethan Dicks wrote:
--- "Dwight K. Elvey"
<dwightk.elvey(a)amd.com> wrote:
But Fuel Injection is not a carburetor - same objective, but
different critter.
- don
Many cars of this time frame may not have a
vacuum advance.
I know my Fiat Spider doesn't( I think the VW's did though ).
Depends on the exact model and year. Many do; some do not.
Still, most any auto is just full of analog
computing elements.
The carburetor is full of them. EFI (Bosch Electronic Fuel Injection)
was available on "Type IVs" (Squarebacks and Fastbacks) in the late
1960s, then later on MicroBuses (like my 1975 and 1976 ones). It's
clearly an analog computer with a network of sensors, comparators
and actuators. There's even instructions floating around on how to
do component-level diagnosis. -ethan
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com
11:53 a.m.
New subject: Analogs (was: Heathkit EC-1
>I don't think _my_ auto (1968 Beetle) is an
example of that. :-)
Do you mean that it doesn't have hydraulic brakes? :-)
I expect that the 
12:13 p.m.
At 04:40 PM 5/2/03 -0700, you wrote:
Not so. They amplify the force (not the energy).
From: Joe
<rigdonj(a)cfl.rr.com>
vacuum advance on the distributor would also qualify.
>From: "Ethan Dicks"
<erd_6502(a)yahoo.com>
>
>--- "Dwight K. Elvey" <dwightk.elvey(a)amd.com> wrote:
>> Hi
>> An interesting side note. The power steering of your
>> auto is an example of an analog fluid amplifier.
>> Dwight
>
>I don't think _my_ auto (1968 Beetle) is an example of that. :-)
Do you mean that it doesn't have hydraulic brakes? :-) I expect that the
Joe
Hi
Hydraulic brakes don't amplify unless they use a booster. It is true that most drum brakes amplify when stopping
while
moving forward.
True but that's not a fluid system, it's a mechanical system.
Many cars of this time frame may not have a vacuum
advance.
Many?? I'm not buying it! Show me a stock car of that vintage that doesn't use
a vacuum advance. The only ones that I know of that were even close to that vintage that
don't have vacuum advances were the '64-'65 Chryslers with the 426 RACE Hemi
engine (the later street Hemis did have VA.)
I know my Fiat Spider doesn't( I think the VW's
did though ).
I've never had a spider but I had other Fiats and MANY VWs and they all had VA.
One of the common mods to the VW was to change the stock VA distributor to a mechanical
advance only distributor with a faster advance curve. I used that in a couple of VWs but
they weren't original.
Still, most any auto is just full of analog computing
elements.
You're right. Even you're only talking about non-fluid computing elements you
can include the numerous levers such as the brake pedal, shifters, parking brake handles,
brake cams, rocker arms, trottle pedal lever, trottle lever on the carburator, lots of
levers and cams in the carburator, etc etc.
Joe
Dwight
12:39 p.m.
New subject: Analog advance (was: Heathkit EC-1
Many cars of
this time frame may not have a vacuum advance.
I know my Fiat Spider doesn't( I think the VW's did though ).
I've
never had a spider but I had other Fiats and MANY VWs and
they all had VA. One of the common mods to the VW was to change the
stock VA distributor to a mechanical advance only distributor with a
faster advance curve. I used that in a couple of VWs but they weren't
original.
1:27 p.m.
New subject: Analog advance (was: Heathkit EC-1
From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)"
<cisin(a)xenosoft.com>
To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org
Subject: Analog advance (was: Heathkit EC-1
Reply-to: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org
Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 17:37:23 -0700 (PDT)
> > Many cars of this time frame may not have a
vacuum advance.
> >I know my Fiat Spider doesn't( I think the VW's did though ).
> I've never had a spider but I had other Fiats and MANY VWs and
> they all had VA. One of the common mods to the VW was to change the
> stock VA distributor to a mechanical advance only distributor with a
> faster advance curve. I used that in a couple of VWs but they weren't
> original.
Sounds like 009 distributors. It was foolishly used to "perk" up
performance and drivablity suffers bec of wrong advance curves w/
vacuum advance carbs. So u get a "hole" in acceleration while
accelerating steadily. That 009 was orignally for bus to push heavy
weight by pushing rpm up with correct carb for bus.
Basic cure was change back to correct carb w/ dual vacuum advance and
overhaul that engine. They don't have the "life" compared to
liquid cooled engines hence the frequent overhauls. 65,000km is
about typical for those.
Oh, in other email, troubles with cooling meant wrong cooling
hardware or missing vital bits like small bits (goes between
cylinder to plug the "air hole" and cooling flaps helps to direct
air and proper warm-up process, correct tinware like fan shound
(generics didn't have vanes built in to guide air in), etc, good
engine/body seal. Even early engine lid (fewer vent grilles) w/
1600cc engine instead of 1200cc straves engine of cooling air.
There were good bugs that had no problems with engine temps running
a/c add on.
Remember german engineers thought of everything so even little bits
do matter like in those air-cooled cars.
Even the older jettas that my friends have, I even still find them
they still need frequent care and expensive.
Cheers,
Wizard
7903
days inactive
7905
days old
16 comments
11 participants
participants (11)
-
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
cctech＠bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
donm＠cts.com -
dwightk.elvey＠amd.com -
erd_6502＠yahoo.com -
jpero＠sympatico.ca -
jrasite＠eoni.com -
rdd＠rddavis.org -
rigdonj＠cfl.rr.com -
vcf＠siconic.com