24 Jan
2013
24 Jan
'13
9:14 a.m.
It is normally better to top post when only one idea is going to put forth.
Of course, with all us old guys with short memories ...
And of course, it is easier to complain/comment about top posting than
the constant posts unrelated to the subject line :).
On 23 January 2013 00:14, Dan Gahlinger<dgahling at
hotmail.com> wrote:
>Yes, lots of games and stuff were done in
ARexx, sound and images, etc.
>
>and btw quoting vrx/sexton as a source automatically disqualifies you
We normally don't top-quote on this list.
I don't even know who or what vrx/sexton is; I merely gave the top hit
or 2 from Google.
--
Liam Proven ? Profile:http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile 
24 Jan
24 Jan
9:52 a.m.
New subject: Top Posting, was Re: What was that
On Thu, 24 Jan 2013, Marvin Johnston wrote:
It is normally better to top post when only one idea
is going to put forth.
Or if one is too lazy, or enough of an asshole, to not adequately
delete the extraneous content.
Top-posting is an acknowledgement and acceptance of failure to trim.
Probably inevitable.
And too many people would rather waste EVERYBODY else's time than spend
their time cleaning up the quoted content.
Of course, with all us old guys with short memories
...
wha?
I dont remember what that is about.
And of course, it is easier to complain/comment about
top posting than
the constant posts unrelated to the subject line :).
I don't understand the interconnection between the multiple
intolerable behaviors.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
11:03 a.m.
New subject: Top Posting, was Re: What was that
On 24 January 2013 12:52, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote (in part):
Top-posting is an acknowledgement and acceptance of
failure to trim.
Or one is forced to use an execrable mail client such as Microsoft
Outhouse (which does not allow to trim).
N.
25 Jan
25 Jan
6:04 a.m.
New subject: Top Posting, was Re: What was that
On 24 January 2013 19:03, Nemo <cym224 at gmail.com> wrote:
On 24 January 2013 12:52, Fred Cisin <cisin at
xenosoft.com> wrote (in part):
Mozilla Thunderbird Portable running on a USB stick? :?)
Something like this is what I use at work...
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884
Top-posting is an acknowledgement and acceptance
of failure to trim.
Or one is forced to use an execrable mail client such as Microsoft
Outhouse (which does not allow to trim). 
9:38 a.m.
New subject: Top Posting, was Re: What was that
On 01/25/2013 12:03 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
I use it all the time, with very heavy volume. I have no problems and
no complaints. (and I have ZERO patience for bad software)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Mozilla
Thunderbird Portable running on a USB stick? :?)
Something like this is what I use at work...
Say what you want, but I never found something so buggy and shitty
like thunderbird.
Ok, everyone uses, I never got it to work. 
10:25 a.m.
New subject: Top Posting, was Re: What was that
Mozilla Thunderbird Portable running on a USB stick?
:?)
Something like this is what I use at work...
Say what you want, but I never
found something so buggy and shitty
like thunderbird.
Ok, everyone uses, I never got it to work. 
11:35 a.m.
New subject: Top Posting, --> Thunderbiird portable and otherwise
On 1/25/2013 10:25 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
I use it all the time, with very
heavy volume. I have no problems and
no complaints. (and I have ZERO patience for bad software)
I must be unlucky :( I always wanted to use thunderbird, but it
NEVER works with me. It always locks up, looses e-mails, creates all
kinds of havoc :(
I miss Calypso :(
I have used thunderbird since it was broken out from Mozilla. Used pine
on a remote shell account before that. I don't recall the origin, but I
think it started out as part of netscape before the fork.
Anyway it has now been downgraded from being supported by the Mozilla
foundation if I heard right, so wonder how long before it goes by the
wayside.
JIm
Mozilla
Thunderbird Portable running on a USB stick? :?)
Something like this is what I use at work...
Say what you want, but I never
found something so buggy and shitty
like thunderbird.
Ok, everyone uses, I never got it to work.
26 Jan
26 Jan
9:28 a.m.
New subject: Top Posting, --> Thunderbiird portable and otherwise
On 01/25/2013 02:35 PM, jim s wrote:
I have used thunderbird since it was broken out from
Mozilla. Used pine
on a remote shell account before that. I don't recall the origin, but I
think it started out as part of netscape before the fork.
Anyway it has now been downgraded from being supported by the Mozilla
foundation if I heard right, so wonder how long before it goes by the
wayside.
Do you really think it will? It has a gigantic user base, and
development is still happening at a pretty decent pace.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
25 Jan
25 Jan
4:58 p.m.
New subject: Top Posting, was Re: What was that
On Jan 25, 2013 1:51 PM, "Alexandre Souza - Listas" <pu1bzz.listas at
gmail.com>
wrote:
I use it all the time, with very heavy volume. I have no problems and
no complaints. (and I have ZERO patience for bad software)
I must be unlucky :( I always wanted to use thunderbird, but it NEVER works with
me. It always locks up, looses e-mails, creates all kinds of
havoc :(
Mozilla Thunderbird Portable running on a USB stick? :?)
Something like this is what I use at work...
Say what you want, but I never found something so buggy and shitty
like thunderbird.
Ok, everyone uses, I never got it to work. I miss Calypso :(
I gave up on mail client apps years ago. I read two different mail boxes
from four devices. Since I want it in sync I would have
to be IMAP rather
than pop, so the mail is already in the cloud.
Once I ceded on that point, gmail was the best choice. It deals with top
quoters well and still let's you post inline and trim
5:34 p.m.
New subject: Top Posting, was Re: What was that
On 01/25/2013 07:58 PM, Tony Aiuto wrote:
I gave up on mail client apps years ago. I read two
different mail boxes
from four devices. Since I want it in sync I would have to be IMAP rather
than pop, so the mail is already in the cloud.
Once I ceded on that point, gmail was the best choice. It deals with top
quoters well and still let's you post inline and trim
Wow.
I do not follow that logic AT ALL.
But that's ok.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
6:02 p.m.
New subject: Top Posting, was Re: What was that
On 26 January 2013 01:34, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
Wow.
I do not follow that logic AT ALL.
But that's ok.
I think he is absolutely right and I have done the same.
I have tried all the leading webmail systems and have been doing so
since Hotmail launched in, what, 1996 or so?
I use webmail with an IMAP server that polls my 4 or 5 various POP3
accounts and collects all mail in a single inbox for spam-filtering
followed by application of my sorting rules. I then access this via a
web page, a mobile web page, a specific client app, or an ordinary
email MUA, as is most appropriate for the platform I am using at that
time. I access or have accessed my mail from the following platforms
on a regular basis:
Symbian
Android
iOS
Mac OS X
Windows XP
Windows Vista
Windows 7
Linux, various distros
I use half a dozen of that list virtually on a daily basis, some
online, some offline.
Can you suggest any /other/ way of accessing a filtered, sorted,
single global email inbox /other than/ using webmail?
If I do use webmail, it is a considerable advantage if there is an
optimised local client for it on my lower-end or small-screen devices.
Gmail provides this too, FOC.
If you can come up with /any/ credible alternative, I'd be interested.
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884
6:16 p.m.
New subject: Top Posting, was Re: What was that
On 01/25/2013 09:02 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
...
Wow.
I do not follow that logic AT ALL.
But that's ok.
I think he is absolutely right and I have done the same.
I have tried all the leading webmail systems and have been doing so
since Hotmail launched in, what, 1996 or so?
I use webmail with an IMAP server that polls my 4 or 5 various POP3
accounts and collects all mail in a single inbox for spam-filtering
followed by application of my sorting rules. I then access this via a
web page, a mobile web page, a specific client app, or an ordinary
email MUA, as is most appropriate for the platform I am using at that
time. I access or have accessed my mail from the following platforms
on a regular basis:
Symbian
Android
iOS
Mac OS X
Windows XP
Windows Vista
Windows 7
Linux, various distros
I use half a dozen of that list virtually on a daily basis, some
online, some offline.
Can you suggest any /other/ way of accessing a filtered, sorted,
single global email inbox /other than/ using webmail? If you can come up with /any/ credible alternative,
I'd be interested.
Yes. Using [drum roll please] A MAIL PROGRAM. Actually several of
them. I do it all the time. All day, every day. All day long, two
laptops, a desktop, an iPhone, and an Android tablet are connected to my
IMAP server. Filtered, sorted, single global email inbox. Are you
honestly suggesting that either:
1) I don't actually do this,
2) This is not "credible",
or
3) A web browser is somehow BETTER at being a mail program than a mail
program?
Further, I have an instance of SquirrelMail running here that also
hits the same IMAP account, just in case something *terrible* happens
and I'm somehow without any of those devices.
I run Thunderbird on the desktop and laptops, and the default mail
client on the iPhone and the Android tablet. The software on any of
them could be replaced at any time with anything else that speaks IMAP,
and it works great. That is, after all, why IMAP exists. (RIP MRC)
POP3 needs to die. It has needed to die for fifteen years. In more
than two decades of running mail servers, for all but the first five
years or so of that I've not seen a single GOOD reason for POP3 to
continue to be used, other than stubbornness, laziness, or
cluelessnesss. I have managed mail services for TENS OF THOUSANDS OF
PEOPLE and have not seen a single credible case for the use of POP3 past
about 1995.
Note that I'm not accusing YOU personally of any of those things
specifically, because I (for the life of me!) don't know WHY you
continue to use POP3.
But hey, have fun. ;) I have no patience for shoddy solutions. If
webmail works for you, more power to you. If POP3 works for you, great.
I could never in a million years suffer through that garbage.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
26 Jan
26 Jan
9:59 a.m.
New subject: Top Posting, was Re: What was that
On 26 January 2013 02:16, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
On 01/25/2013 09:02 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
...
I am mystified. Who said anything about POP3? I am not talking about
POP3. I don't know anyone who is.
I am talking about email providers and UIs.
I do not have "a computer". I have 3 main home computers, several
"work" computers, a smartphone - usually just 1 at a time - and I also
use other devices. On about 25-33% of the machines I use, I have no
privileges to install software. One the ones I own, I do, but I run
multiple OSs and change regularly, so local apps with local state are
a nuisance, to be avoided if possible.
My Gmail inbox has 124 folders in it alongside the standard ones like
"Bin" and "Spam". I have more rules than folders to sort my incoming
mail.
How could I reproduce that sort of setup with local apps?
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884
Wow.
I do not follow that logic AT ALL.
But that's ok.
I think he is absolutely right and I have done the same.
I have tried all the leading webmail systems and have been doing so
since Hotmail launched in, what, 1996 or so?
I use webmail with an IMAP server that polls my 4 or 5 various POP3
accounts and collects all mail in a single inbox for spam-filtering
followed by application of my sorting rules. I then access this via a
web page, a mobile web page, a specific client app, or an ordinary
email MUA, as is most appropriate for the platform I am using at that
time. I access or have accessed my mail from the following platforms
on a regular basis:
Symbian
Android
iOS
Mac OS X
Windows XP
Windows Vista
Windows 7
Linux, various distros
I use half a dozen of that list virtually on a daily basis, some
online, some offline.
Can you suggest any /other/ way of accessing a filtered, sorted,
single global email inbox /other than/ using webmail? If you can come up with /any/ credible
alternative, I'd be interested.
Yes. Using [drum roll please] A MAIL PROGRAM. Actually several of
them. I do it all the time. All day, every day. All day long, two
laptops, a desktop, an iPhone, and an Android tablet are connected to my
IMAP server. Filtered, sorted, single global email inbox. Are you
honestly suggesting that either:
1) I don't actually do this,
2) This is not "credible",
or
3) A web browser is somehow BETTER at being a mail program than a mail
program?
Further, I have an instance of SquirrelMail running here that also
hits the same IMAP account, just in case something *terrible* happens
and I'm somehow without any of those devices.
I run Thunderbird on the desktop and laptops, and the default mail
client on the iPhone and the Android tablet. The software on any of
them could be replaced at any time with anything else that speaks IMAP,
and it works great. That is, after all, why IMAP exists. (RIP MRC)
POP3 needs to die. It has needed to die for fifteen years. In more
than two decades of running mail servers, for all but the first five
years or so of that I've not seen a single GOOD reason for POP3 to
continue to be used, other than stubbornness, laziness, or
cluelessnesss. I have managed mail services for TENS OF THOUSANDS OF
PEOPLE and have not seen a single credible case for the use of POP3 past
about 1995.
Note that I'm not accusing YOU personally of any of those things
specifically, because I (for the life of me!) don't know WHY you
continue to use POP3.
But hey, have fun. ;) I have no patience for shoddy solutions. If
webmail works for you, more power to you. If POP3 works for you, great.
I could never in a million years suffer through that garbage.
4:06 p.m.
New subject: Top Posting, was Re: What was that
On 01/26/2013 12:59 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
On 26 January 2013 02:16, Dave McGuire <mcguire at
neurotica.com> wrote:
Uhh...I could've sworn you did. I was tired, my brain probably
mismatched on something! I apologize for my error.
But wait, above (which is why I didn't trim the huge volume of
material above, sorry about that) you mention polling POP3 accounts.
On 01/25/2013 09:02 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
...
I am mystified. Who said anything about POP3? I am not talking about
POP3. I don't know anyone who is. Wow.
I do not follow that logic AT ALL.
But that's ok.
I think he is absolutely right and I have done the same.
I have tried all the leading webmail systems and have been doing so
since Hotmail launched in, what, 1996 or so?
I use webmail with an IMAP server that polls my 4 or 5 various POP3
accounts and collects all mail in a single inbox for spam-filtering
followed by application of my sorting rules. I then access this via a
web page, a mobile web page, a specific client app, or an ordinary
email MUA, as is most appropriate for the platform I am using at that
time. I access or have accessed my mail from the following platforms
on a regular basis:
Symbian
Android
iOS
Mac OS X
Windows XP
Windows Vista
Windows 7
Linux, various distros
I use half a dozen of that list virtually on a daily basis, some
online, some offline.
Can you suggest any /other/ way of accessing a filtered, sorted,
single global email inbox /other than/ using webmail? If you can come up with /any/ credible
alternative, I'd be interested.
Yes. Using [drum roll please] A MAIL PROGRAM. Actually several of
them. I do it all the time. All day, every day. All day long, two
laptops, a desktop, an iPhone, and an Android tablet are connected to my
IMAP server. Filtered, sorted, single global email inbox. Are you
honestly suggesting that either:
1) I don't actually do this,
2) This is not "credible",
or
3) A web browser is somehow BETTER at being a mail program than a mail
program?
Further, I have an instance of SquirrelMail running here that also
hits the same IMAP account, just in case something *terrible* happens
and I'm somehow without any of those devices.
I run Thunderbird on the desktop and laptops, and the default mail
client on the iPhone and the Android tablet. The software on any of
them could be replaced at any time with anything else that speaks IMAP,
and it works great. That is, after all, why IMAP exists. (RIP MRC)
POP3 needs to die. It has needed to die for fifteen years. In more
than two decades of running mail servers, for all but the first five
years or so of that I've not seen a single GOOD reason for POP3 to
continue to be used, other than stubbornness, laziness, or
cluelessnesss. I have managed mail services for TENS OF THOUSANDS OF
PEOPLE and have not seen a single credible case for the use of POP3 past
about 1995.
Note that I'm not accusing YOU personally of any of those things
specifically, because I (for the life of me!) don't know WHY you
continue to use POP3.
But hey, have fun. ;) I have no patience for shoddy solutions. If
webmail works for you, more power to you. If POP3 works for you, great.
I could never in a million years suffer through that garbage. I am talking about email providers and UIs.
Gotcha.
I do not have "a computer". I have 3 main
home computers, several
"work" computers, a smartphone - usually just 1 at a time - and I also
use other devices. On about 25-33% of the machines I use, I have no
privileges to install software. One the ones I own, I do, but I run
multiple OSs and change regularly, so local apps with local state are
a nuisance, to be avoided if possible.
Ahh ok. Your situation is similar to mine, but different in some
important ways. There are about twenty computers here that are running
all the time, I may use different ones depending on what I'm doing and
what area of the building I'm working in, and I have root access on all
of them. I generally won't touch a computer that I don't have
administrative access to.
My Gmail inbox has 124 folders in it alongside the
standard ones like
"Bin" and "Spam". I have more rules than folders to sort my incoming
mail.
That's a bunch. I have about 1/3 of that. But still, our usage
pattern and volume seems pretty similar. The big difference is that you
can't run what YOU want to run on those machines.
How could I reproduce that sort of setup with local
apps?
By using IMAP. Unless I'm missing something about your desired goal.
I'm certain you're very familiar with IMAP and its capabilities, yes?
(I'd be surprised if you weren't)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
4:14 p.m.
New subject: Top Posting, was Re: What was that
On 27 January 2013 00:06, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
By using IMAP. Unless I'm missing something
about your desired goal.
I'm certain you're very familiar with IMAP and its capabilities, yes?
(I'd be surprised if you weren't)
IMAP could do the folders, sure. But what it couldn't do is the rules.
I have, as I said, more rules than folders and some 130-odd folders.
No problem with pointing multiple email client apps at a single IMAP
server, sure, although sync times become an issue - my Gmail inbox is
7.3GB, for example. (I also have a few gig more of very old (1990s)
mail offline that I want to put in there at some point as well.)
But the rules-set is complex. Well, not complex, but big. I have moved
messagebases around in Thunderbird before, no problem - after a few
versions, it was even able to share one between Windows and Linux
installs, a very handy feature indeed for me.
But without having a single shared messagebase, gigs of it, I can't
share my filtering rules and so on among different machines, can I?
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884
28 Jan
28 Jan
1:19 p.m.
New subject: IMAP Mail Sorting/Filtering (Was: Top Posting, was Re: What was that)
On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 12:14:51AM +0000, Liam Proven wrote:
IMAP could do the folders, sure. But what it
couldn't do is the rules.
Really? My current Dovecot sieve script is 1,411 lines long. It sort
messages from various mailing lists into 236 different mailboxes. At the
moment I have 3,042,355 messages total in those mailboxes. I'm an e-mail
pack rat.
--
Kevin
http://www.RawFedDogs.net
http://Lassie.RawFedDogs.net
http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org
Bruceville, TX
What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works!
Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum.
2:40 p.m.
New subject: IMAP Mail Sorting/Filtering (Was: Top Posting, was Re: What was that)
On 28 January 2013 21:19, Kevin Monceaux <Kevin at rawfeddogs.net> wrote:
On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 12:14:51AM +0000, Liam Proven
wrote:
Interesting. Not an option unless you run your own mailserver, I
guess, or have shell-level access to one.
But I am afraid that I am a child of the 1990s in email terms. I want
a GUI and a couple of forms to fill in.
Many years ago, I was able to make config changes to sendmail.cf and
have it work, and was happy to write shell scripts to automate stuff.
Today, I avoid that kind of thing if at all possible.
But you make a good point.
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884
IMAP could do the folders, sure. But what it
couldn't do is the rules.
Really? My current Dovecot sieve script is 1,411 lines long. It sort
messages from various mailing lists into 236 different mailboxes. At the
moment I have 3,042,355 messages total in those mailboxes. I'm an e-mail
pack rat.
4:11 p.m.
New subject: IMAP Mail Sorting/Filtering (Was: Top Posting, was Re: What was that)
On 01/28/2013 05:40 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
Interesting. Not an option unless you run your own mailserver, I
guess, or have shell-level access to one.
But I am afraid that I am a child of the 1990s in email terms. I want
a GUI and a couple of forms to fill in.
Sometimes having a flexible configuration, advanced functionality,
high performance, and security require a little bit of work.
IMAP could do the folders, sure. But what it
couldn't do is the rules.
Really? My current Dovecot sieve script is 1,411 lines long. It sort
messages from various mailing lists into 236 different mailboxes. At the
moment I have 3,042,355 messages total in those mailboxes. I'm an e-mail
pack rat. Many years ago, I was able to make config changes to
sendmail.cf and
have it work, and was happy to write shell scripts to automate stuff.
Today, I avoid that kind of thing if at all possible.
I do it too. My approach is to do it and make sure I do it right, so
I only have to do it once.
Yes, it does require some upkeep, but it's a few hours' work per year,
which isn't much...and that's providing a lot of functionality and
services for upwards of a hundred people.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
27 Jan
27 Jan
10:16 a.m.
New subject: Top Posting, was Re: What was that
The e-mail below is a perfect example of why I do not like bottom posting
I had to scroll through Liam's original e-mail then Dave's complete response to
get to Liam's response to that response.?
This is?annoying. If you want to bottom post then trim please.?
So this is why I no longer support bottom posts..
?
----- Original Message -----
From: Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com>
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Cc:
Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 12:59 PM
Subject: Re: Top Posting, was Re: What was that
On 26 January 2013 02:16, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
On 01/25/2013 09:02 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
...
I am mystified. Who said anything about POP3? I am not talking about
POP3. I don't know anyone who is.
I am talking about email providers and UIs.
I do not have "a computer". I have 3 main home computers, several
"work" computers, a smartphone - usually just 1 at a time - and I also
use other devices. On about 25-33% of the machines I use, I have no
privileges to install software. One the ones I own, I do, but I run
multiple OSs and change regularly, so local apps with local state are
a nuisance, to be avoided if possible.
My Gmail inbox has 124 folders in it alongside the standard ones like
"Bin" and "Spam". I have more rules than folders to sort my incoming
mail.
How could I reproduce that sort of setup with local apps?
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884
? Wow.
? I do not follow that logic AT ALL.
? But that's ok.
I think he is absolutely right and I have done the same.
I have tried all the leading webmail systems and have been doing so
since Hotmail launched in, what, 1996 or so?
I use webmail with an IMAP server that polls my 4 or 5 various POP3
accounts and collects all mail in a single inbox for spam-filtering
followed by application of my sorting rules. I then access this via a
web page, a mobile web page, a specific client app, or an ordinary
email MUA, as is most appropriate for the platform I am using at that
time. I access or have accessed my mail from the following platforms
on a regular basis:
Symbian
Android
iOS
Mac OS X
Windows XP
Windows Vista
Windows 7
Linux, various distros
I use half a dozen of that list virtually on a daily basis, some
online, some offline.
Can you suggest any /other/ way of accessing a filtered, sorted,
single global email inbox /other than/ using webmail? If you can come up with /any/ credible
alternative, I'd be interested.
? Yes.? Using [drum roll please] A MAIL PROGRAM.? Actually several of
them.? I do it all the time.? All day, every day.? All day long, two
laptops, a desktop, an iPhone, and an Android tablet are connected to my
IMAP server.? Filtered, sorted, single global email inbox.? Are you
honestly suggesting that either:
? 1) I don't actually do this,
? 2) This is not "credible",
? or
? 3) A web browser is somehow BETTER at being a mail program than a mail
program?
? Further, I have an instance of SquirrelMail running here that also
hits the same IMAP account, just in case something *terrible* happens
and I'm somehow without any of those devices.
? I run Thunderbird on the desktop and laptops, and the default mail
client on the iPhone and the Android tablet.? The software on any of
them could be replaced at any time with anything else that speaks IMAP,
and it works great.? That is, after all, why IMAP exists. (RIP MRC)
? POP3 needs to die.? It has needed to die for fifteen years.? In more
than two decades of running mail servers, for all but the first five
years or so of that I've not seen a single GOOD reason for POP3 to
continue to be used, other than stubbornness, laziness, or
cluelessnesss.? I have managed mail services for TENS OF THOUSANDS OF
PEOPLE and have not seen a single credible case for the use of POP3 past
about 1995.
? Note that I'm not accusing YOU personally of any of those things
specifically, because I (for the life of me!) don't know WHY you
continue to use POP3.
? But hey, have fun. ;)? I have no patience for shoddy solutions.? If
webmail works for you, more power to you.? If POP3 works for you, great.
? I could never in a million years suffer through that garbage.
10:28 a.m.
New subject: Top Posting, was Re: What was that
The e-mail below is a perfect example of why I do not
like bottom posting
I had to scroll through Liam's original e-mail then Dave's complete
response to get to Liam's response to that
This is annoying. If you want to bottom post then trim please.
So this is why I no longer support bottom posts..
But tell me, why the hell people doesn't trim e-mails like I do?
6:31 p.m.
New subject: Top Posting, was Re: What was that
It was thus said that the Great Christian Liendo once stated:
The e-mail below is a perfect example of why I do not
like bottom posting
I had to scroll through Liam's original e-mail then Dave's complete
response to get to Liam's response to that response.?
And I hate having to scroll down to see the relative context, then
scrolling back up to read your reply. I'm sorry, but unlike you, I cannot
maintain the context of three dozen threads in my inbox (I subscribe to more
than just this list). I find having some context easier on me, even if it
is dozens of lines.
But then again, I run my own email server, and use mutt on said email
server to read my email---no IMAP or POP here.
This is?annoying. If you want to bottom post then trim
please.?
Pot. Meet Kettle.
So this is why I no longer support bottom posts..
And this is an example of why I hate top posting. You, who bitched about
Liam not trimming his reply have not even bothered to trim your reply here,
and included 112 lines of extraneous emails.
Personally, I blame Microsoft Outlook for this, making it all to damn easy
to post a pithy one line reply and not even bothering to trim the remaining
email.
-spc (Trimming 112 lines because I care ... )
28 Jan
28 Jan
2:35 p.m.
New subject: Top Posting, was Re: What was that
On 28 January 2013 02:31, Sean Conner <spc at conman.org> wrote:
It was thus said that the Great Christian Liendo once
stated:
Well, quite.
The e-mail below is a perfect example of why I do
not like bottom posting
I had to scroll through Liam's original e-mail then Dave's complete
response to get to Liam's response to that response.
And I hate having to scroll down to see the relative context, then
scrolling back up to read your reply. I'm sorry, but unlike you, I cannot
maintain the context of three dozen threads in my inbox (I subscribe to more
than just this list). I find having some context easier on me, even if it
is dozens of lines.
Indeed. Perhaps it is only lightweight email users who top-quote? We
know that they do not understand the niceties of quoting, trimming or
context; perhaps it is a more general thing, that they do not really
grok the fullness of email and treat it like Facebook messages or SMS
or something similarly ephemeral.
And this is an example of why I hate top posting.
You, who bitched about
Liam not trimming his reply have not even bothered to trim your reply here,
and included 112 lines of extraneous emails.
Indeed. But they were /below/ what he wrote -- and thus, out of sight,
out of mind. Somebody's else's problem. "You are in my way, and
anything I do to reduce that is right, even if it causes you massive
inconvenience" - the top-quoters' mindset all over.
Personally, I blame Microsoft Outlook for this,
making it all to damn easy
to post a pithy one line reply and not even bothering to trim the remaining
email.
Quite. Microsoft's Internet client software ranges between poor and
abysmal. The IE team's old email client - MSIMN as was, later Outlook
Express - was OK for the mid-1990s, with no spam checking etc. But
everything since then has ranged from awful to utterly unusable crap.
Unfortunately, there are tens of millions of clueless drones in
offices who know nothing else and thing it is how this stuff is meant
to work.
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884
27 Jan
27 Jan
6:14 p.m.
New subject: Top Posting, was Re: What was that
I should have been clearer in my post.
In my experience, most people who won't use webmail justify their
position not on the superiority of mail clients, but on the opinion
that they prefer having their mail in their position, and not "in a
cloud server some where". I'm not going to debate if that is true or
not. It's just what I have had too many people tell me.
But, if you want to keep several clients in sync with your mail, you
need to keep the definitive repository somewhere, usually your inbox.
I was pointing out the willful blindness of people who believe IMAP
servers are less "in the cloud" then a webmail server. Indeed, most
webmail servers, Google's included, provide IMAP services.
So, my, unsaid, staring piont is that mail clients give you no more
ownership over your mail than web mail.
On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 6:16 PM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
On 01/25/2013 09:02 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
...
Wow.
I do not follow that logic AT ALL.
But that's ok.
I think he is absolutely right and I have done the same.
I have tried all the leading webmail systems and have been doing so
since Hotmail launched in, what, 1996 or so?
I use webmail with an IMAP server that polls my 4 or 5 various POP3
accounts and collects all mail in a single inbox for spam-filtering
followed by application of my sorting rules. I then access this via a
web page, a mobile web page, a specific client app, or an ordinary
email MUA, as is most appropriate for the platform I am using at that
time. I access or have accessed my mail from the following platforms
on a regular basis:
Symbian
Android
iOS
Mac OS X
Windows XP
Windows Vista
Windows 7
Linux, various distros
I use half a dozen of that list virtually on a daily basis, some
online, some offline.
Can you suggest any /other/ way of accessing a filtered, sorted,
single global email inbox /other than/ using webmail? If you can come up with /any/ credible
alternative, I'd be interested.
Yes. Using [drum roll please] A MAIL PROGRAM. Actually several of
them. I do it all the time. All day, every day. All day long, two
laptops, a desktop, an iPhone, and an Android tablet are connected to my
IMAP server. Filtered, sorted, single global email inbox. Are you
honestly suggesting that either:
1) I don't actually do this,
2) This is not "credible",
or 3) A web browser is somehow BETTER at being a mail
program than a mail
program?
Actually yes. Too many mail programs simply suck. And finding one that
works on all of the 4 platforms I use on a daily basis is nigh
impossible. So GMail is the best choice for me. In particular, GMail
does away with the the primitive notion of (IMAP's) folders, and lets
you categorize mail with as many labels as it needs, and with a great
search capability. The day I switched over, I wondered why I had been
reluctant for so long. I never looked back.
Further, I have an instance of SquirrelMail running
here that also
hits the same IMAP account, just in case something *terrible* happens
and I'm somehow without any of those devices.
I run Thunderbird on the desktop and laptops, and the default mail
client on the iPhone and the Android tablet. The software on any of
them could be replaced at any time with anything else that speaks IMAP,
and it works great. That is, after all, why IMAP exists. (RIP MRC)
POP3 needs to die. It has needed to die for fifteen
years. In more
than two decades of running mail servers, for all but the first five
years or so of that I've not seen a single GOOD reason for POP3 to
continue to be used, other than stubbornness, laziness, or
cluelessnesss. I have managed mail services for TENS OF THOUSANDS OF
PEOPLE and have not seen a single credible case for the use of POP3 past
about 1995.
Agreed. I would just lump IMAP in there as well. :-)
Note that I'm not accusing YOU personally of any
of those things
specifically, because I (for the life of me!) don't know WHY you
continue to use POP3.
But hey, have fun. ;) I have no patience for shoddy solutions. If
webmail works for you, more power to you. If POP3 works for you, great.
I could never in a million years suffer through that garbage.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
6:30 p.m.
New subject: Top Posting, was Re: What was that
On 01/27/2013 09:14 PM, Tony Aiuto wrote:
I should have been clearer in my post.
In my experience, most people who won't use webmail justify their
position not on the superiority of mail clients, but on the opinion
that they prefer having their mail in their position, and not "in a
cloud server some where". I'm not going to debate if that is true or
not. It's just what I have had too many people tell me.
But, if you want to keep several clients in sync with your mail, you
need to keep the definitive repository somewhere, usually your inbox.
I was pointing out the willful blindness of people who believe IMAP
servers are less "in the cloud" then a webmail server. Indeed, most
webmail servers, Google's included, provide IMAP services.
So, my, unsaid, staring piont is that mail clients give you no more
ownership over your mail than web mail.
Of course you are correct. Indeed, a webmail program is, on the
server side, a mail client with a remotely-implemented GUI. This being
a technical forum, I'd be shocked, and a bit dismayed, if anyone here
didn't know that.
In my case, I run my own mail server. Whatever mail client(s) I use,
be they textual, graphical, or graphical-with-a-remote-GUI like a
webmail client, is still backed by the mail server that I control...not
a mail server run by the world's largest data collection, indexing, and
mining company.
(yes, there was a hint there)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
28 Jan
28 Jan
10:39 a.m.
New subject: Top Posting, was Re: What was that
On Sunday, January 27, 2013, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 01/27/2013 09:14 PM, Tony Aiuto wrote:
I'm not surprised by what people willing try to not believe.
I should have been clearer in my post.
In my experience, most people who won't use webmail justify their
position not on the superiority of mail clients, but on the opinion
that they prefer having their mail in their position, and not "in a
cloud server some where". I'm not going to debate if that is true or
not. It's just what I have had too many people tell me.
But, if you want to keep several clients in sync with your mail, you
need to keep the definitive repository somewhere, usually your inbox.
I was pointing out the willful blindness of people who believe IMAP
servers are less "in the cloud" then a webmail server. Indeed, most
webmail servers, Google's included, provide IMAP services.
So, my, unsaid, staring piont is that mail clients give you no more
ownership over your mail than web mail.
Of course you are correct. Indeed, a webmail program is, on the
server side, a mail client with a remotely-implemented GUI. This being
a technical forum, I'd be shocked, and a bit dismayed, if anyone here
didn't know that.
In my case, I run my own mail server. Whatever mail
client(s) I use,
be they textual, graphical, or graphical-with-a-remote-GUI like a
webmail client, is still backed by the mail server that I control..
LOL. Well that puts you out of the range of most people - even for this
list.
I used to run my own mail server in my basement. I had exactly the comfort
of total control you have. But the machines seemed to sense when I would
be away, and always choose to wedge up then. After too many times talking
a 7 year old through rebooting the server rack in the scary corner of the
basement, I punted and someone with 24/7 ops handle it.
.not
a mail server run by the world's largest data collection, indexing, and
mining company.
Overall, I'm not sure what is the most secure (in the privacy sense) option.
A lot of factors go into it. In particular, I don't trust my ISP to not
sniff the
mail stream (usually unencrypted) coming into my home. So, I don't really
trust the privacy of my connection there. If I move my servers to a colo,
then I feel slightly better, but I don't actually have physical control over
the hardware, so it's not 100%.
(yes, there was a hint there)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
4:15 p.m.
New subject: Top Posting, was Re: What was that
On 01/28/2013 01:39 PM, Tony Aiuto wrote:
I'm with you there.
Nonsense. It can be set up in an afternoon. A few hours if you've
done it before.
Of course
you are correct. Indeed, a webmail program is, on the
server side, a mail client with a remotely-implemented GUI. This being
a technical forum, I'd be shocked, and a bit dismayed, if anyone here
didn't know that.
I'm not surprised by what people willing try to not believe. In my case,
I run my own mail server. Whatever mail client(s) I use,
be they textual, graphical, or graphical-with-a-remote-GUI like a
webmail client, is still backed by the mail server that I control..
LOL. Well that puts you out of the range of most people - even for this
list. I used to run my own mail server in my basement. I had
exactly the comfort
of total control you have. But the machines seemed to sense when I would
be away, and always choose to wedge up then. After too many times talking
a 7 year old through rebooting the server rack in the scary corner of the
basement, I punted and someone with 24/7 ops handle it.
Jeeze man, what were you running?!
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
24 Jan
24 Jan
12:10 p.m.
New subject: Top Posting, was Re: What was that
On 24 January 2013 12:52, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
Or if one is too lazy, or enough of an asshole, to not
adequately
delete the extraneous content.
Top-posting is an acknowledgement and acceptance of failure to trim.
Probably inevitable.
And too many people would rather waste EVERYBODY else's time than spend
their time cleaning up the quoted content.
Don't forget those of us with vision disabilities.
Top posting removes the two issues of:
1. Screen reader going insane and spewing "GREATER THAN" a million
times when someone keeps on quoting up a chain of quotes until the
text consists of a million greater than symbols and a single word.
2. "Time to find the new stuff in the field of old stuff. ... And a
single word takes up my screen. ... TIME FOR FUN!"
Of course with proper trimming inline posting is still perfectly usable.
Cheers,
Christian
4297
days inactive
4302
days old
27 comments
12 participants
participants (12)
-
captainkirk359＠gmail.com -
christian_liendo＠yahoo.com -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
cym224＠gmail.com -
jwsmail＠jwsss.com -
Kevin＠RawFedDogs.net -
lproven＠gmail.com -
marvin＠west.net -
mcguire＠neurotica.com -
pu1bzz.listas＠gmail.com -
spc＠conman.org -
tony.aiuto＠gmail.com