7 Mar
2016
7 Mar
'16
2:16 p.m.
Hi,
Over the weekend I was looking through some old CAD files and came across my
original design for the MEM11A. It was an SPC board that contained only 128KW
of FRAM.
I?m wondering if there?s any interest in that board. I do have to iterate on the design
a bit but I should be able to get something ready sooner than with my current board
design (plus I know it will fit in an SPC form factor because I?ve already done it).
What I?d like to know from folks is if there?s interest in that design? Would there
still
be interest in what I?m now calling UMF11 (Unibus Multi-Function)?
I won?t have pricing (on either) until I build (and debug) a couple of prototypes because
I need to know what the assembly costs would be (no I won?t be offering kits).
To also answer the other question, no I haven?t run into any issues with the UMF11,
I just came across this long forgotten design and wanted to know if there?s any
interest in it as I can probably get it into ?production? sooner than the UMF11.
Thanks.
TTFN - Guy
7 Mar
7 Mar
4:27 p.m.
On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 8:16 AM, Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com> wrote:
Hi,
Over the weekend I was looking through some old CAD files and came across my
original design for the MEM11A. It was an SPC board that contained only 128KW
of FRAM.
I?m wondering if there?s any interest in that board. I do have to iterate on the design
a bit but I should be able to get something ready sooner than with my current board
design (plus I know it will fit in an SPC form factor because I?ve already done it).
What I?d like to know from folks is if there?s interest in that design? Would there
still
be interest in what I?m now calling UMF11 (Unibus Multi-Function)?
Ummm enlighten us a little more about what exactly it could do and
what machines it could be used in?
Thanks
Mike
http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'
4:46 p.m.
On Mar 7, 2016, at 1:27 PM, Mike Ross <tmfdmike at
gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 8:16 AM, Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com> wrote:
MEM11A? It can be used in any PDP11 that has SPC slots and will provide 128KW
of non-volatile RAM. I had originally gone down this road to provide memory for
memory challenged machines (most notably the 11/20) but could be used in any
Unibus PDP11.
TTFN - Guy
Hi,
Over the weekend I was looking through some old CAD files and came across my
original design for the MEM11A. It was an SPC board that contained only 128KW
of FRAM.
I?m wondering if there?s any interest in that board. I do have to iterate on the design
a bit but I should be able to get something ready sooner than with my current board
design (plus I know it will fit in an SPC form factor because I?ve already done it).
What I?d like to know from folks is if there?s interest in that design? Would there
still
be interest in what I?m now calling UMF11 (Unibus Multi-Function)?
Ummm enlighten us a little more about what exactly it could do and
what machines it could be used in?
5:06 p.m.
On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 10:46 AM, Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com> wrote:
Ah ok so it's a universal RAM board that will add modern reliable
Unibus memory to any -11 from the 11/20 on up?
I'll have six please! Preferably tomorrow! (It was the 'multifunction'
bit that confused me; I wondered if it was doing something else beyond
memory)
Mike
http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'
On Mar 7, 2016, at 1:27 PM, Mike Ross
<tmfdmike at gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 8:16 AM, Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com> wrote:
MEM11A? It can be used in any PDP11 that has SPC slots and will provide 128KW
of non-volatile RAM. I had originally gone down this road to provide memory for
memory challenged machines (most notably the 11/20) but could be used in any
Unibus PDP11. Hi,
Over the weekend I was looking through some old CAD files and came across my
original design for the MEM11A. It was an SPC board that contained only 128KW
of FRAM.
I?m wondering if there?s any interest in that board. I do have to iterate on the design
a bit but I should be able to get something ready sooner than with my current board
design (plus I know it will fit in an SPC form factor because I?ve already done it).
What I?d like to know from folks is if there?s interest in that design? Would there
still
be interest in what I?m now calling UMF11 (Unibus Multi-Function)?
Ummm enlighten us a little more about what exactly it could do and
what machines it could be used in?
5:18 p.m.
On Mar 7, 2016, at 2:06 PM, Mike Ross <tmfdmike at
gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 10:46 AM, Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com> wrote:
Ah ok so it's a universal RAM board that will add modern reliable
Unibus memory to any -11 from the 11/20 on up?
I'll have six please! Preferably tomorrow! (It was the 'multifunction'
bit that confused me; I wondered if it was doing something else beyond
memory)
OK, part of this is my own fault. I started working on a board design (MEM11A) that
was only memory. During one of the (several) re-designs it morphed into the
multi-funciton
board that I?ve also been calling MEM11A.
To alleviate the confusion as I?m thinking of resurrecting the *original* MEM11A design
(just Unibus Memory), I?m renaming the more recent design (which I also called MEM11A)
to UMF11 (Unibus Multi-Function) which has in addition to memory, DL11s, RF11/RS11s,
etc to be able to support all of the peripherals (sans RK11) needed for Unix V1.
So to re-iterate, I?m looking at producing two products:
MEM11A which is just 128KW of memory in an SPC form factor
UMF11 which is 128KW of memory, 2 DL11s, RF11/RS11s, boot roms, etc.
The UMF11 has been taking so long because it has a micro-controller (J1) on it to perform
the configuration and emulation tasks. It has no switches and only a few jumpers. Every
thing else is configured through one of the serial ports.
I?ve finished the Verilog code for the UMF11 and am close to completing the simulation of
all of the individual blocks. I still have some uCode work to do in terms of emulated
devices but now that all of the H/W interfaces are designed and coded, I can complete
that as well. The remainder is doing the schematic capture, board layout and
testing?lots
and lots of testing. ;-)
The MEM11A is *much* simpler and the work I need to do on it is mainly to put the random
logic into a CPLD. In that respect, the MEM11A is pretty hardwired compared to the
UMF11.
TTFN - Guy
On Mar 7, 2016, at 1:27 PM, Mike Ross
<tmfdmike at gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 8:16 AM, Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com> wrote:
MEM11A? It can be used in any PDP11 that has SPC slots and will provide 128KW
of non-volatile RAM. I had originally gone down this road to provide memory for
memory challenged machines (most notably the 11/20) but could be used in any
Unibus PDP11. Hi,
Over the weekend I was looking through some old CAD files and came across my
original design for the MEM11A. It was an SPC board that contained only 128KW
of FRAM.
I?m wondering if there?s any interest in that board. I do have to iterate on the design
a bit but I should be able to get something ready sooner than with my current board
design (plus I know it will fit in an SPC form factor because I?ve already done it).
What I?d like to know from folks is if there?s interest in that design? Would there
still
be interest in what I?m now calling UMF11 (Unibus Multi-Function)?
Ummm enlighten us a little more about what exactly it could do and
what machines it could be used in? 
5:37 p.m.
Mike wrote...
-----------------
Ah ok so it's a universal RAM board that will add modern reliable Unibus memory to any
-11 from the 11/20 on up?
I'll have six please! Preferably tomorrow!
----------------
All comes down to what I can afford, how much that detracts funds from purchase of the
"newer version" that does disk storage as well....
But I'd tentatively say I'd want 2 of 'em.
J
8 Mar
8 Mar
1:11 p.m.
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
From: Guy Sotomayor
Sent: Monday, March 07, 2016 8:16 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: MEM11A questions
Hi,
Over the weekend I was looking through some old CAD files and came across my
original design for the MEM11A. It was an SPC board that contained only
128KW
of FRAM.
I?m wondering if there?s any interest in that board. I do have to iterate
on the design
a bit but I should be able to get something ready sooner than with my
current board
design (plus I know it will fit in an SPC form factor because I?ve already
done it).
What I?d like to know from folks is if there?s interest in that design?
Would there still
be interest in what I?m now calling UMF11 (Unibus Multi-Function)?
I won?t have pricing (on either) until I build (and debug) a couple of
prototypes because
I need to know what the assembly costs would be (no I won?t be offering
kits).
To also answer the other question, no I haven?t run into any issues with the
UMF11,
I just came across this long forgotten design and wanted to know if there?s
any
interest in it as I can probably get it into ?production? sooner than the
UMF11.
Thanks.
TTFN - Guy
---------
Guy,
I have one 11/20. CPU state unknown ... but the card cage only has the CPU.
So I would be glad to get some memory. Plenty of space left for other
interfaces, so the MEM11 would be sufficient for me. 128 KW is probably
overkill. The 11/20 can only address up to 64 KW, correct?
Depending cost, I am seriously interested in one MEM11.
Thanks,
- Henk
1:17 p.m.
On Mar 8, 2016, at 10:11 AM, Henk Gooijen
<henk.gooijen at hotmail.com> wrote:
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Guy Sotomayor
Sent: Monday, March 07, 2016 8:16 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: MEM11A questions
Hi,
Over the weekend I was looking through some old CAD files and came across my
original design for the MEM11A. It was an SPC board that contained only 128KW
of FRAM.
I?m wondering if there?s any interest in that board. I do have to iterate on the design
a bit but I should be able to get something ready sooner than with my current board
design (plus I know it will fit in an SPC form factor because I?ve already done it).
What I?d like to know from folks is if there?s interest in that design? Would there
still
be interest in what I?m now calling UMF11 (Unibus Multi-Function)?
I won?t have pricing (on either) until I build (and debug) a couple of prototypes
because
I need to know what the assembly costs would be (no I won?t be offering kits).
To also answer the other question, no I haven?t run into any issues with the UMF11,
I just came across this long forgotten design and wanted to know if there?s any
interest in it as I can probably get it into ?production? sooner than the UMF11.
Thanks.
TTFN - Guy
---------
Guy,
I have one 11/20. CPU state unknown ... but the card cage only has the CPU.
So I would be glad to get some memory. Plenty of space left for other
interfaces, so the MEM11 would be sufficient for me. 128 KW is probably
overkill. The 11/20 can only address up to 64 KW, correct?
Depending cost, I am seriously interested in one MEM11.
The 11/20 can address only 32KW (64KB). You need an MMU to access
more.
TTFN - Guy
1:39 p.m.
Guy wrote...
------
The 11/20 can address only 32KW (64KB). You need an MMU to access more.
------
So MEM11 doesn't have a MMU "on board" then, got it.
Just curious... I seem to recall you were having trouble fitting all the desired
functionality on the UMF11, probably taking it out of the SPC form factor (or something
similar).
Would moving forward with your MEM11 as "the" memory option and then removing
memory from the UMF deliverables - free up the silicon to solve the earlier size issue?
J
1:47 p.m.
On Mar 8, 2016, at 10:39 AM, Jay West <jwest at
classiccmp.org> wrote:
Guy wrote...
------
The 11/20 can address only 32KW (64KB). You need an MMU to access more.
------
So MEM11 doesn't have a MMU "on board" then, got it.
The MMU is a CPU function.
Just curious... I seem to recall you were having trouble fitting all the desired
functionality on the UMF11, probably taking it out of the SPC form factor (or something
similar).
Would moving forward with your MEM11 as "the" memory option and then removing
memory from the UMF deliverables - free up the silicon to solve the earlier size issue?
It doesn?t help. On the UMF11, I use a 256K x 16 FRAM for ?memory?. Since the
Unibus only can
only access 128K x 16, I?m using the other ?half? of the memory for other stuff (J1 uCode
images,
configuration settings, Boot ROM images, Console emulator ROM image, etc, etc). So it
really doesn?t
save anything if I removed that functionality (the footprint of the 256K x 16 FRAM is the
same as
the 128K x 16 FRAM).
There?s a lot of random crap that I have to deal with (5v to 3.3v translators) power
supplies (3.3v,
2.5v, 1.8v), connectors for the SLUs, etc.
However, what I?m most worried about is power. According to DEC specs, an SPC board can
only
draw 4 amps off the 5v supply. I?m not sure what the current draw will be. I?ll know
more once I
build the prototype and can actually measure it.
TTFN - Guy
2:12 p.m.
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
From: Guy Sotomayor
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2016 7:17 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: MEM11A questions
On Mar 8, 2016, at 10:11 AM, Henk Gooijen
<henk.gooijen at hotmail.com>
wrote:
Guy,
I have one 11/20. CPU state unknown ... but the card cage only has the
CPU.
So I would be glad to get some memory. Plenty of space left for other
interfaces, so the MEM11 would be sufficient for me. 128 KW is probably
overkill. The 11/20 can only address up to 64 KW, correct?
Depending cost, I am seriously interested in one MEM11.
The 11/20 can address only 32KW (64KB). You need an MMU to access
more.
TTFN - Guy
---------
Ah yes, of course Guy! The 32 kW vs. 64 kB error. I'll never learn ;-)
The 11/20 did never have an MMU (AFAIK).
Will the MEM11 come in "flavors" regarding the installed amount of FRAM?
(32/64/128KW)
- Henk
2:15 p.m.
On Mar 8, 2016, at 11:12 AM, Henk Gooijen
<henk.gooijen at hotmail.com> wrote:
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Guy Sotomayor
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2016 7:17 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: MEM11A questions
No, it will only have 128KW. Since it?s a single FRAM part, I?m not going to
try and ?stock? different flavors (especially since I?ll be having the boards
assembled at the board house).
TTFN - Guy
On Mar 8, 2016, at 10:11 AM, Henk Gooijen
<henk.gooijen at hotmail.com> wrote:
Guy,
I have one 11/20. CPU state unknown ... but the card cage only has the CPU.
So I would be glad to get some memory. Plenty of space left for other
interfaces, so the MEM11 would be sufficient for me. 128 KW is probably
overkill. The 11/20 can only address up to 64 KW, correct?
Depending cost, I am seriously interested in one MEM11.
The 11/20 can address only 32KW (64KB). You need an MMU to access
more.
TTFN - Guy
---------
Ah yes, of course Guy! The 32 kW vs. 64 kB error. I'll never learn ;-)
The 11/20 did never have an MMU (AFAIK).
Will the MEM11 come in "flavors" regarding the installed amount of FRAM?
(32/64/128KW)
3:44 p.m.
On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 8:15 AM, Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com> wrote:
But you will do something to allow memory to be switched in and out? I
presume this thing wouldn't work in an 11/20 unless it was strapped
back to 32KW? Or will the 11/20 be happy and simply ignore the
unaddressable memory beyond 32KW?
Mike
http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'
On Mar 8, 2016, at 11:12 AM, Henk Gooijen
<henk.gooijen at hotmail.com> wrote:
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Guy Sotomayor
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2016 7:17 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: MEM11A questions
No, it will only have 128KW. Since it?s a single FRAM part, I?m not going to
try and ?stock? different flavors (especially since I?ll be having the boards
assembled at the board house). On Mar 8, 2016, at 10:11 AM, Henk Gooijen
<henk.gooijen at hotmail.com> wrote:
Guy,
I have one 11/20. CPU state unknown ... but the card cage only has the CPU.
So I would be glad to get some memory. Plenty of space left for other
interfaces, so the MEM11 would be sufficient for me. 128 KW is probably
overkill. The 11/20 can only address up to 64 KW, correct?
Depending cost, I am seriously interested in one MEM11.
The 11/20 can address only 32KW (64KB). You need an MMU to access
more.
TTFN - Guy
---------
Ah yes, of course Guy! The 32 kW vs. 64 kB error. I'll never learn ;-)
The 11/20 did never have an MMU (AFAIK).
Will the MEM11 come in "flavors" regarding the installed amount of FRAM?
(32/64/128KW)
3:48 p.m.
On Mar 8, 2016, at 3:44 PM, Mike Ross <tmfdmike at
gmail.com> wrote:
But you will do something to allow memory to be switched in and out? I
presume this thing wouldn't work in an 11/20 unless it was strapped
back to 32KW? Or will the 11/20 be happy and simply ignore the
unaddressable memory beyond 32KW?
The Unibus has 18 address lines. This should work so long as the memory doens't
respond to I/O page addresses (the top 4kW of the address space). That's a
requirement for any Unibus memory on any PDP11. The difference between 11/20 and 11/05
vs. the others is that the lack of MMU means that the CPU can't generate addresses in
the range 28 to 124 kW. (I/O devices can, though, which would be rather interesting.)
paul
...
No, it will only have 128KW. Since it?s a single FRAM part, I?m not going to
try and ?stock? different flavors (especially since I?ll be having the boards
assembled at the board house).
3:58 p.m.
On Mar 8, 2016, at 12:44 PM, Mike Ross <tmfdmike at
gmail.com> wrote:
It will have 2 sets of configuration switches. One is the starting address
(on a 4KB boundary). The other is the number of 4KB blocks that the
board will respond to.
I may have a couple of other options like the speed at which it can
respond (the FRAMs have a 35 ns access time) and the size of the
IO hole.
I wrote the Verilog for the CPLD last night and as I finished it, I thought of
a few other options that might be useful. I?ll look it at some more once I?ve
done the simulation.
TTFN - Guy
No, it will only have 128KW. Since it?s a single FRAM part, I?m not going to
try and ?stock? different flavors (especially since I?ll be having the boards
assembled at the board house).
But you will do something to allow memory to be switched in and out? I
presume this thing wouldn't work in an 11/20 unless it was strapped
back to 32KW? Or will the 11/20 be happy and simply ignore the
unaddressable memory beyond 32KW?
3008
days inactive
3009
days old
14 comments
5 participants
participants (5)
-
ggs＠shiresoft.com -
henk.gooijen＠hotmail.com -
jwest＠classiccmp.org -
paulkoning＠comcast.net -
tmfdmike＠gmail.com