23 Feb
2002
23 Feb
'02
6:28 p.m.
I have just acquired part of a DECdatasystem 570. I have the following
questions about it: Why did DEC repackage their PDP-11s this way? When
were the various DECdatasystem models released? How do they fit in with
the rest of DEC's product line, and how were they marketed?
--
Jeffrey S. Sharp
jss(a)subatomix.com
24 Feb
24 Feb
12:12 a.m.
I have just acquired part of a DECdatasystem 570. I
have the following
questions about it: Why did DEC repackage their PDP-11s this way? When
were the various DECdatasystem models released? How do they fit in with
the rest of DEC's product line, and how were they marketed?
--
Jeffrey S. Sharp
jss(a)subatomix.com
That was one of the later 11/70's and (in my opinion) one of the nicest
packaged ones to work on.
Great find.
The 11/74 I had at DEC looked pretty much just like that on the front panel.
As far as marketting... who knows. They never made much sense to me.
Bill
--
d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now!
bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@ureach.com
3:02 a.m.
On Sun, 24 Feb 2002, Bill Pechter wrote:
I had never seen one before, but had been told about its front panel. I
thought it would clash, being mostly white in a black/maroon rack. I am
pleasantly surprised with how pretty it is.
DECdatasystem
570.
That was one of the later 11/70's and (in my opinion) one of the nicest
packaged ones to work on. Great find.
Now I just have to find the cards for it...and someone to help me remove
it from the back of my truck.
As far as marketting... who knows. They never made
much sense to me.
But the DECdatasystems are a later packaging, right? If so, how late in
the life of the 11/70 are we talking? 1908-ish? I'm wondering what
peripherals I need to look for for it to be a historically accurate,
catalog-perfect configuration.
I'm guessing an RM03/05/80 would be OK for disks (and easier to handle
than a RPxx!), but I'm not sure what tape or other things should go with
it.
That brings me to another question. Is there anywhere that I can easily
find either the introduction date of DEC peripherals or (even better) the
date range during which the peripherals were sold? Google works about 20%
of the time for this, and it's slow going. I didn't live through the
PDP-11 heyday like some of you, :-) and it's hard for me to get a good
idea of what was intended to go with what.
--
Jeffrey S. Sharp
jss(a)subatomix.com
5:16 a.m.
On Sun, 24 Feb 2002, Bill Pechter wrote:
I had never seen one before, but had been told about its front panel. I
thought it would clash, being mostly white in a black/maroon rack. I am
pleasantly surprised with how pretty it is.
I was installing them as late as 85-86...
DECdatasystem 570.
That was one of the later 11/70's and (in my opinion) one of the nicest
packaged ones to work on. Great find.
Now I just have to find the cards for it...and someone to help me remove
it from the back of my truck.
As far as marketting... who knows. They never
made much sense to me.
But the DECdatasystems are a later packaging, right? If so, how late in
the life of the 11/70 are we talking? 1908-ish? I'm wondering what
peripherals I need to look for for it to be a historically accurate,
catalog-perfect configuration.
I'm guessing an RM03/05/80 would be OK for disks (and easier to handle
than a RPxx!), but I'm not sure what tape or other things should go with
it.
On stuff these guys were sold with TE16's through TU77's... sometimes
they'd have TS11's on them...
Some were upgraded earlier systems. At DEC one of ours had a rack
of RK05's as well as RP06's... Software development sites often had
almost all the types of disks or tapes hanging on the bus.
That brings me to another question. Is there anywhere
that I can easily
find either the introduction date of DEC peripherals or (even better) the
date range during which the peripherals were sold? Google works about 20%
of the time for this, and it's slow going. I didn't live through the
PDP-11 heyday like some of you, :-) and it's hard for me to get a good
idea of what was intended to go with what.
Wish I knew, I'd love to see a comprehensive history.
--
Jeffrey S. Sharp
jss(a)subatomix.com
Bill
8:14 a.m.
On Sun, 24 Feb 2002, Bill Pechter wrote:
The scrappers forgot to remove two FP11-C boards. The date codes on the
chips are all 1979.
I wrote:
DECdatasystem
570.
That was one of the later 11/70's and (in my opinion) one of the nicest
packaged ones to work on. Now I just have to find [,,,] someone to help me
remove it from the back
of my truck.
I succeeded. The system is now in my garage.
--
Jeffrey S. Sharp
jss(a)subatomix.com
10:02 a.m.
I had never seen one before, but had been told about
its front panel. I
thought it would clash, being mostly white in a black/maroon rack. I am
pleasantly surprised with how pretty it is.
The one I used in Milwaukee around 1990 was ugly - grey and baby blue.
Bad day at DEC's paint shop, I guess.
William Donzelli
aw288(a)osfn.org
1 Mar
1 Mar
11:27 a.m.
"Jeffrey S. Sharp" wrote:
But the DECdatasystems are a later packaging, right?
If so, how late in
the life of the 11/70 are we talking? 1908-ish? I'm wondering what
peripherals I need to look for for it to be a historically accurate,
catalog-perfect configuration.
The 11/70 I have was originally a DECdatasystem in the double-width
corporate cabinet. It was originally purchased in 1979, and remained in
production until July of 2000. It now resides in H960 racks with a
front panel from an earlier 11/70 in the traditional maroon and pink.
The size of the DECdatasystem cabinet made it impossible to move the
system through normal doorways, and I kinda like the older look.
I'm guessing an RM03/05/80 would be OK for disks
(and easier to handle
than a RPxx!), but I'm not sure what tape or other things should go with
it.
My system was originally attached to RP06 disks and a TE16 tape drive.
At the end of its service life, it was attached to RA72 disks and a
TU81+ tape drive, which is the way it remains. All of the MASSBUS
controllers were removed, but I still have enough parts to put one back
together.
--
Doug Carman
pdp11 at bellsouth dot net
5:12 p.m.
On Fri, 1 Mar 2002, Doug Carman wrote:
The 11/70 I have was originally a DECdatasystem in the
double-width
corporate cabinet. It was originally purchased in 1979, and remained in
production until July of 2000.
Mine is in two H960s, and looks to have been manufactured in 1979. It
must have been sitting in the scrapyard for a few months, because there is
some rust in certain places.
It now resides in H960 racks with a front panel from
an earlier 11/70 in
the traditional maroon and pink. [...] I kinda like the older look.
I like the older look too, but I was very surprised at how nice the
white/blue one looks. I had seen pictures of the 11/55 and thought it
would be ugly. Not so.
My system was originally attached to RP06 disks and a
TE16 tape drive.
At the end of its service life, it was attached to RA72 disks and a
TU81+ tape drive,
At least until some MASSBUS peripherals can be found (and possibly for the
rest of the machine's life) I'll probably give it some RA8x drives. I've
got 14 or so in various states of repair, and I must have seen 50 more at
the different scrapyards I've been to. TU8x units also aren't too scarce.
--
Jeffrey S. Sharp
jss(a)subatomix.com
2 Mar
2 Mar
1:05 p.m.
Don't know if it means any to you, but I have a PDP-8/A under the
DECdatasystems label.
-Gunther
Doug Carman wrote:
"Jeffrey S. Sharp" wrote:
...
--
Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow(a)regenstrief.org
Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care
Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine
tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org
But the DECdatasystems are a later packaging,
right? If so, how late in
the life of the 11/70 are we talking? 1908-ish? I'm wondering what
peripherals I need to look for for it to be a historically accurate,
catalog-perfect configuration.
The 11/70 I have was originally a DECdatasystem in the double-width
corporate cabinet. It was originally purchased in 1979, and remained in
production until July of 2000. It now resides in H960 racks with a
5:09 p.m.
On Sat, 2 Mar 2002, Gunther Schadow wrote:
Don't know if it means any to you, but I have a
PDP-8/A under the
DECdatasystems label.
Right. That would fit in with my theory that when certain products or
models were getting old, DEC rehashed them as DECdatasystems instead of
just EOLing them. Give 'em a new name, maybe a slightly different look,
and (probably) sell them for less. This could have been done to compete
with the other guys, like DG, who were selling less expensive computers.
There were 11/40 DECdatasystems as well. Look at the rack header panels
at you-know-where:
http://www.telnet.hu/hamster/pdp-11/1140.html
--
Jeffrey S. Sharp
jss(a)subatomix.com
10:23 p.m.
On Sat, 2 Mar 2002, Gunther Schadow wrote:
I don't think so... IIRC the DECdatasystems usually were packaged systems
with OS, tape, printer and disk... basically computer room in a truck.
They were usually for timeshare use (RSTS/E) or CTS-xxx.
Bill
--
d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now!
bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@ureach.com
Don't know if it means any to you, but I have
a PDP-8/A under the
DECdatasystems label.
Right. That would fit in with my theory that when certain products or
models were getting old, DEC rehashed them as DECdatasystems instead of
just EOLing them. Give 'em a new name, maybe a slightly different look,
and (probably) sell them for less. This could have been done to compete
with the other guys, like DG, who were selling less expensive computers.
--
Jeffrey S. Sharp
jss(a)subatomix.com 
3 Mar
3 Mar
3:14 a.m.
IIRC the DECdatasystems usually were packaged systems
with OS, tape, printer and disk... basically computer room
in a truck.
The little 11/23 I just picked up ( under DECdatasystems
badge ) has _extra_ sealing against dust in and noise out,
so would be well suited for a quiet laboratory somewhere.
The power switch is slaved to power out cords, also
enhancing the turnkey simplicity of the whole system.
John A.
9:49 a.m.
On Sun, 3 Mar 2002, Bill Pechter wrote:
That also makes sense. Thanks for setting me straight.
--
Jeffrey S. Sharp
jss(a)subatomix.com
my theory that
when certain products or models were getting old, DEC
rehashed them as DECdatasystems instead of just EOLing them.
I don't think so... IIRC the DECdatasystems usually were packaged
systems with OS, tape, printer and disk... basically computer room in a
truck. 
3:37 a.m.
...
> Don't know if it means any to you, but I have
a PDP-8/A under the
> DECdatasystems label.
...
There were 11/40 DECdatasystems as well. Look at the
rack header panels
...
I've got an 11/70 in DECdatasystems dress - very pretty.
-barry
---
Barry Dobyns, barry(a)dobyns.com, http://www.dobyns.com/barry
4:33 a.m.
New subject: OT: Netscape data files
Though I don't use it myself, a friend, subject to the whims of the management
of QWEST, has been forced into using their somewhat customized Netscape
version. His system recently experienced a crash of some sort, resulting in
its becoming operational, though impaired by the fact the SCANDISK utility
reduced a number of directories from what they formerly were to the infamous
DIR000n where n is some number between 0 and 1FE or some such. The files
seem, apparently, to be in place, though the structure is lost. He wants me
to help him find his Netscape data files so he can recover his address book
and most recent emails from when he was using QWEST, which he doesn't any
longer.
Do any of you guys use Nestcape under Windows and know it well enough to know
which files contain these items? Internet Explorer knows how to import this
data from Netscape, but doesn't know how to search for the files. If I knew
the file names, I'd have no trouble, methinks.
Any "spiritual guidance" with respect to this problem would be appreciated.
thanks,
Dick
5:31 a.m.
New subject: OT: Netscape data files
If it's Netscape V4.7, or derived from that version, the directory tree looks like
this:
Program Files (or whatever)
Netscape
Communicator
(This folder and subfolders have all the programs and their associated files.)
Users
<username>
abook.nab (this file contains the addressbook)
Mail
folder-name (this file contains the text of messages in the folder)
folder-name.smn (this file is apparently an index of the messages)
...
If a folder contains folders, then the structure is, at this level:
folder-name.sbd (this folder contains what the Mail folder does above)
folder-name (this file contains the text of messages in the folder)
folder-name.smn (this file is apparently an index of the messages)
...
and so forth, recursively, until all subfolders are enumerated.
It is possible to reconstruct all this, since I've done it when merging mail
from several different machines.
If it's Netscape V6, all the data are in Documents and Settings for the user,
and it gets much more complex because you can have multiple ISP accounts for
a given user.
Dave
Richard Erlacher wrote:
Though I don't use it myself, a friend, subject to the whims of the management
of QWEST, has been forced into using their somewhat customized Netscape
version. His system recently experienced a crash of some sort, resulting in
its becoming operational, though impaired by the fact the SCANDISK utility
reduced a number of directories from what they formerly were to the infamous
DIR000n where n is some number between 0 and 1FE or some such. The files
seem, apparently, to be in place, though the structure is lost. He wants me
to help him find his Netscape data files so he can recover his address book
and most recent emails from when he was using QWEST, which he doesn't any
longer.
Do any of you guys use Nestcape under Windows and know it well enough to know
which files contain these items? Internet Explorer knows how to import this
data from Netscape, but doesn't know how to search for the files. If I knew
the file names, I'd have no trouble, methinks.
Any "spiritual guidance" with respect to this problem would be appreciated.
thanks,
Dick
--
David C. Jenner
djenner(a)earthlink.net
6:06 a.m.
New subject: OT: Netscape data files
On Sun, 3 Mar 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote:
Do any of you guys use Nestcape under Windows and know
it well enough to know
which files contain these items? Internet Explorer knows how to import this
data from Netscape, but doesn't know how to search for the files. If I knew
the file names, I'd have no trouble, methinks.
Any "spiritual guidance" with respect to this problem would be appreciated.
I'm almost embarrassed to be able to answer :^)
C:\
Program Files
Netscape
Users
<username> or "default"
Good Luck.
Doc
4 Mar
4 Mar
2:26 p.m.
New subject: OT: Netscape data files
Richard Erlacher wrote:
Though I don't use it myself, a friend, subject to
the whims of the management
of QWEST, has been forced into using their somewhat customized Netscape
version. His system recently experienced a crash of some sort, resulting in
its becoming operational, though impaired by the fact the SCANDISK utility
reduced a number of directories from what they formerly were to the infamous
DIR000n where n is some number between 0 and 1FE or some such. The files
seem, apparently, to be in place, though the structure is lost. He wants me
to help him find his Netscape data files so he can recover his address book
and most recent emails from when he was using QWEST, which he doesn't any
longer.
Do any of you guys use Nestcape under Windows and know it well enough to know
which files contain these items? Internet Explorer knows how to import this
data from Netscape, but doesn't know how to search for the files. If I knew
the file names, I'd have no trouble, methinks.
Any "spiritual guidance" with respect to this problem would be appreciated.
thanks,
Dick
Jerome Fine replies:
You did not supply the operating system nor the version of Netscape.
These are ESSENTIAL for any valid help, but if you are using
W95/W98 and Netscape 4.XX (the following seems to apply to
both V4.03 up to V4.78 of Netscape), then this may help. Next
time, try and determine a bit of the Hardware and Operating System
information.
As David Jenner stated, the directories you normally need to look for are
(numbers indicate a directory name and sub-level in the directory tree):
1-Program Files
2-Netscape
3-Communicator (needed files not in this directory)
3-Users
4-name-of-the-user (normally)
5-Mail
InBox (text of the messages)
InBox.smn (index of the messages)
Other-File-Names
Other-File-Names.smn
The files are always in pairs. From my observation, there are also a few
other files in the "name-of-the-user" directory which I don't know much
about. In Windows 98, I have found that multiple "name-of-user" directories
are allowed. I will shortly be upgrading to that environment, so anyone
who has any questions, I may be able to help with my experience in
respect of the upgrade AND with how I use "Multiple User IDs" with
a common "Mail" directory for all of them. A separate "Mail"
directory
for each User ID is the normal case, so if that is what you want, it is
usually set up all by itself by default. Having one common "Mail"
directory took me several days to figure out and implement.
If there are any more questions about V4.78 of Netscape, I may
be able to help a bit.
Sincerely yours,
Jerome Fine
5 Mar
5 Mar
4:40 a.m.
--- Gunther Schadow <gunther(a)aurora.regenstrief.org> wrote:
Don't know if it means any to you, but I have a
PDP-8/A under the
DECdatasystems label.
I have something similar - a PDP-8/a in a desk (as pictured on the front
of the 1976-1977 minicomputer handbook) with a black-fronted RX01
drive and, ISTR, "DECdatasystems 310" label (could have mis-remembered
the number, though).
I would tend to agree with other posters in this thread, that the
datasystems line was prepackaged and ready to drop-ship to the customer,
as opposed to the more traditional sales where you could order a PDP
a-la-carte.
I'm sure price and age have something to do with it as well... once a
system became mature, there were fewer varieties demanded by the
marketplace, so, DEC created a "one size fits most" package to make it
easier to show your pointy-haired boss and get approval for.
-ethan
__________________________________________________
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Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!
http://mail.yahoo.com/
5:30 a.m.
This sounds like a machine I used to work on. PDP-8/a, two floppy drives,
a VT-50 terminal that looked like it could have been provisioned for an
internal thermal printer, and ours had a LA-36. We ran two OS's in it,
COS-310 (which I wrote DIBOL under), and some other OS that was really
bizarre (it was a DEC product). It's single biggest claim to fame was that
no one could ever figure out how to do a directory of the disk. You either
knew what was out there, or you reformatted it.
We used this system to process cassette tapes written by a box attached to
copy machines. It was one of the first copy counting control systems, and
we sold a bunch into law firms. Prior to the system going in, the firm may
bill as much as 90% of it's copying cost to internal budgets. With our
system, the legal aide or lawyer entered an account number into a calculator
like keypad, then made copies. Either after a time out, or a new account
number being entered, the date, time, account number, and number of copies
made was written to the tape.
My job, at the time, was to take the tapes, read them on a cassette reading
into this funky OS on the PDP-8/a, which wrote them as files to the disk,
then reboot the system into COS-310, and process the data on the data disk.
After a few months of working there, I started modifying the processing code
to run a little faster, print pretty banners on the front page for the 3
letter client abbreviation (got a $1000 bonus from that. Looked a lot less
tacky than using a thick black magic marker).
I also made a few changes to the tape read app, which taught PDP-8
assembly.
It was pretty neat, at the time. I don't miss it at all.
--John
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
[mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks
Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 13:41 PM
To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: DECdatasystems
--- Gunther Schadow <gunther(a)aurora.regenstrief.org> wrote:
Don't know if it means any to you, but I have
a PDP-8/A under the
DECdatasystems label.
I have something similar - a PDP-8/a in a desk (as pictured on the front
of the 1976-1977 minicomputer handbook) with a black-fronted RX01
drive and, ISTR, "DECdatasystems 310" label (could have mis-remembered
the number, though).
I would tend to agree with other posters in this thread, that the
datasystems line was prepackaged and ready to drop-ship to the customer,
as opposed to the more traditional sales where you could order a PDP
a-la-carte.
I'm sure price and age have something to do with it as well... once a
system became mature, there were fewer varieties demanded by the
marketplace, so, DEC created a "one size fits most" package to make it
easier to show your pointy-haired boss and get approval for.
-ethan
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!
http://mail.yahoo.com/
8:23 a.m.
--- John Chris Wren <jcwren(a)jcwren.com> wrote:
This sounds like a machine I used to work on.
PDP-8/a, two floppy
drives, a VT-50 terminal that looked like it could have been provisioned
for an internal thermal printer, and ours had a LA-36.
Yep... they sold a bunch of them. The printer inside the VT-50 case
wasn't thermal, BTW. The "1976-1977 pdp-8/a minicomputer handbook" calls
it an "electrolytic copier" under the entry for the VT-61. My memory of
working with them was that they used funky paper and there was a wet
wiper brush that moistened the paper as it exited the printer. Perhaps
it squeegeed it. I don't recall any more.
We ran two OS's in it... It was pretty neat, at
the time. I don't miss
it at all.
I can understand that, but still; I wish _I_ had had the opportunity to
have been paid to work with PDP-8s.
-ethan
__________________________________________________
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Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!
http://mail.yahoo.com/
8:59 a.m.
At 02:23 PM 3/5/02 -0800, you wrote:
--- John Chris Wren <jcwren(a)jcwren.com> wrote:
That sounds like a Versatec printer, which used an electrostatic process
to attach the carbon suspended in the liquid toner...
--tom
This sounds like a machine I used to work on.
PDP-8/a, two floppy
drives, a VT-50 terminal that looked like it could have been provisioned
for an internal thermal printer, and ours had a LA-36.
Yep... they sold a bunch of them. The printer inside the VT-50 case
wasn't thermal, BTW. The "1976-1977 pdp-8/a minicomputer handbook" calls
it an "electrolytic copier" under the entry for the VT-61. My memory of
working with them was that they used funky paper and there was a wet
wiper brush that moistened the paper as it exited the printer. Perhaps
it squeegeed it. I don't recall any more.
11:56 a.m.
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6 Mar
6 Mar
3:39 a.m.
--- Tom Uban <uban(a)ubanproductions.com> wrote:
At 02:23 PM 3/5/02 -0800, you wrote:
Not the same thing, but thinking of odd and forgotten printing
technologies,
I am reminded of a 16-gray-scale plotter device that used special multi-
layer paper that was ablated in differing amounts by a spark. The stronger
the spark, the deeper the coating was removed, the darker the pixel.
We used it to print digitized images of industrial parts that were scanned
in an ultrasonic tank at about 1/1000" resolution (1/2" diameter part
displayed on a 512x512 "hi-res" monitor). The whole shooting match was
driven by a PDP-11/73 running TSX-11 from a Fuji Eagle. ISTR it was about
$20K worth of computer and disk (including 4MB RAM, disk controllers,
RLV12/RL02, serial cards, etc.), plus scanner plus plotter in 1987.
The pictures of internal flaws were pretty cool. Unfortunately due to
NDA issues, I didn't get to take any with me to hang on the wall after
the project was done.
-ethan
__________________________________________________
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Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!
http://mail.yahoo.com/
The printer inside the VT-50 case
was... an "electrolytic copier"
That sounds like a Versatec printer, which used an electrostatic process
to attach the carbon suspended in the liquid toner... 
5 Mar
5 Mar
9:11 a.m.
Ethan Dicks wrote:
--- John Chris Wren <jcwren(a)jcwren.com> wrote:
The paper had to be wet before printing, not after, because the image
was produced by passing current through the paper. Details about helix
wires and anodes are contained in the "VT50-Series Copier User's
Manual", at http://vt100.net/.
- Paul
This sounds like a machine I used to work
on. PDP-8/a, two
floppy drives, a VT-50 terminal that looked like it could have
been provisioned for an internal thermal printer, and ours had a
LA-36.
Yep... they sold a bunch of them. The printer inside the VT-50 case
wasn't thermal, BTW. The "1976-1977 pdp-8/a minicomputer handbook"
calls it an "electrolytic copier" under the entry for the VT-61.
My memory of working with them was that they used funky paper and
there was a wet wiper brush that moistened the paper as it exited
the printer. Perhaps it squeegeed it. I don't recall any more.
8095
days inactive
8105
days old
24 comments
18 participants
participants (18)
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allain＠panix.com -
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