Yes. My thought is that if you walk into the surplus joint in person, and negotiate the purchase of a piece of equipment that is sitting there, the federal government has no power (constitutional authority) to prevent the sale, since it is not interstate commerce. And you could probably spend twenty years and millions of dollars trying to fight it. :-( It sounds fishy to me. Have any other local surplus dealers said anything similar? Can you get them to show you any paperwork they received notifying them of this requirement, or tell you what law (U.S. Code) or Regulation (Code of Federal Regulations) they're complying with? It's not like the government can just impose something like this without any official paperwork. It seems more likely that the one dealer has decided that he doesn't want to hassle with the public any more, and is trying to shift the blame to the government. Eric

It's a complete shame. There is a significant industry that is based on the resale of surplus equipment. To just destroy it needlessly pollutes, throws away jobs, and does not support the economy. To what end does the destruction of antique equipment, which has already been stripped of any information that might further nefarious individuals or wayward countries, going to prevent another 9/11 incedent? --tom At 09:47 PM 4/25/2005 -0400, Joe R. wrote:

Hi All! Joe R. wrote: This is not entirely correct. It only applies to surplus from U.S. Government contracts, or is funded by U.S Government. I frequently buy a lot of surplus from the University of Arizona. They knew of these restrictions several months ago. However the University deems it only applies to surplus/salvage from U.S. Governent contracts, as the U of A recieves a majority of its funding from the State of Arizona. a majority of it's surplus is sold w/o any such restrictions. Let me point out that the University has, for a very long time, had a very accurate inventory control system. All inventory is tracked through out the university, and even at the surplus sales level, there is a final "check-off" as we load the stuff into our cars. The University continue to dispose of surplus equipment from U.S. Gov. contracts, the equipment deemed to have a "nefarious" value like lets say a poweful laser, are usually sold dismantled, AND with an affifdavit by the buyer that is not to be sold/exported out of the U.S. I also have bought items from the various military bases here in Arizona through thier surplus property auctions, They too, follow the same routines as the U of A. Remember, surplus and salvage dealers BUY the items from the various goverment/private businesses. These businesses have to follow the same rules as ther salvage agent. They would not be selling it to him as salvage, had they felt the requirements were too draconian. Not true also, there are no provisions in any Homeland Security act that specifically prohibit any surplus/obsolete equipment from beind sold overseas. There are specific prohibitions under the Dept of Commerce and now Homeland Security for certain classes of computer/scientific equipment sales. They have been more detailed than previous to 9/11. But there is no blanket restriction. As you can imagine there's no way that a scrap yard owner can handle the massive amounts of paperwork that would be involved and there is absolutely no way to ensure that none of it goes There isn't a "massive amount of papework" just a few affidavits. I suspect he's just too lazy to find out for himself. Yes, the Department of Homeland Security is a hotbed of officious twits, (going up the whole chain of command) and have overreacted to the 9/11 events with alarming alacrity, but that's what this administration does best: Scare the pant's off you, impose ill-concieved measures that not only don't percieve the problem but in effect, add to it. But they are especillay fond at taking advantage of peoples ignorance/or indifference. You scrap dealers is one such person. Probably not, unless they are selling high tech equipment from U.S. old government contracts to be bought by overseas buyers. Most likely he will be out of business soon. Hopefully replaced by people who are not scared and can most likely read. I bough several items within the last month, that were all part of obsolete/surplus equipment that came from U.S. Government products. First at the U of A, and then from Davis-Montham Air base and from Ft Huachuca. All U.S. surplus including military surplus...and no problems, and furthermore were not told of any draconian measures or the ending of these surplus auctions. Allthough I wouldn't doubt for a minute these types of meausures could be taken, and especially understand the requirements. Cheers Tom

Joe> A couple of days ago several people were discussing their Joe> problems with a couple of DG Novas. I mentioned that I had just Joe> seen one in a scrap yard and a couple of people asked me to Joe> check on getting it for parts. I went back there today and the Joe> Nova was still there and it looks complete. HOWEVER the owner Joe> of the yard informed me that he is no longer selling ANY surplus Joe> to anybody for any reason. I talked to him and found out that Joe> the US Government is now requiring all surplus and scrap dealers Joe> to keep DETAILED records of EVERY piece of equipment that they Joe> sell! Furthermore they must ensure that NONE of it goes Joe> overseas. It sounds like a severely scrambled interpretation of the export control regulations that have existed in the USA for many years -- long before 9/11. Yes, people often blame 9/11 for all sorts of things, and not too long ago there was a long thread on this list where export restrictions were wrongly blamed on 9/11. Detailed records of everything sold? Bizarre. Ensuring nothing gets overseas? Makes no sense. What DOES make sense is "if it goes out of the country, look at the export regulations". And for surplus equipment that can indeed be onerous, because it may not be clear what specific rule applies to, say, a 20 year old Cray, or even a 20 year old Nova. paul

[...] When the terrible events of 9/11 occured, one of my first comments was 'I fear the reaction of the governments more than I fear the terrorists'. Govenments have a habit of over-reacting, particularly if it means they can impose more restrictions on the public... Over here, you can be arrested for 'possessing information of use to a terrorist'. Let's looks along my bookshelves... The 555 timer data sheet Data sheets on various other timing chips Electronic magazines with timing circuits in them Various books on mechanical and electronic clocks (clocks have long since been an interst of mine) Books on chemistry Books on nuclear and particle physics (not suprising as I did a Ph.D. i the latter) Books on metalworking A London street map A London underground railway map Care to explain why those are not of use to terrorists. For that matter a cookery book is of use to a terrorist (presumably they have to eat sometime...) -tony

Re: Ask him to lease you the equipment for 99 years for the price you'd have paid to buy it :) -- Stan Sieler sieler at allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html