16 Oct
2010
16 Oct
'10
2:06 p.m.
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 12:35:47 +0100
From: Andrew Back <andy at flirble.org>
Subject: Re: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!)
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" <cctech at classiccmp.org>
On (21:02 15/10/10), Tony Duell wrote:
Tony, does a week ever pass where you don't feel the inescapable urge to
flame those who work at museums, regardless of their knowledge, ability and
track record?
You are rude and insulting. Yes, damned rude even. How dare you make such
sweeping generalisations? If the subject of your disapproval were a
particular race or subscribers of a certain religion this would not be
tolerated. Yet somehow it is and you get to flap your jaw, spewing out utter
nonsense asserting that everyone who works at a museum is an idiot, and we
have to put up with it. And *you know full well* that there are plenty of
people who work and volunteer at museums on this list. Oh, I'm not one, in
case you wondered.
...
So, how about this. Have you ever considered that if you slightly adjusted
your attitude and learnt to work with people rather than lambasting them,
you might actually contribute to the preservation of computer history for
future generations.
But, no, it's much easier to take the moral high ground and boast about how
clever you are and how much of an idiot most everyone else is.
Andrew
--------------- REPLY:
Whoa!
Talk about "rude and insulting," and making "sweeping
generalizations"...
He said he's dealt with "some particularly clueless people at museums;" how
did you get "everyone who works at a museum is an idiot" out of that?
And if he and Curt decide that based on their bad experiences they won't
lend their systems again to a museum, I think that's their choice to make.
Finally, to suggest that he hasn't in fact "contributed to the preservation
of computer history" is preposterous and highly insulting; I don't see many
reverse-engineered HP schematics or extremely helpful posts "working with
people" on here with your name on them...
Not many of his contributions are relevant to my interests but I for one
certainly appreciate the time he spends helping the folks on here, in the HP
community and elsewhere (even if his rants are a little repetitive at times)
;-)
Sheesh!
mike
Teo Zenios wrote:
I feel even more strongly about this, having dealt with some particularly
clueless people at musuems and related organisations [1]. To the extent
that no part of my collection is ever going near a museum. There are many old machines that are worth
preserving but are better
off
in a museum then in somebody's cluttered basement left to rot.
There are cases where that's true - but I know how museums can't
possibly 
16 Oct
16 Oct
5:09 p.m.
On 10/16/2010 02:06 PM, MikeS wrote:
[[ At first, I thought this would be one of my very rare "Include the
whole gosh darned reply" emails instead of trimming out just the
relevant parts, but then, I guess I do need to put a few comments
interspersed throughout... see where appropriate... ]]
From: Andrew Back <andy at flirble.org>
On (21:02 15/10/10), Tony Duell wrote:
Tony, does a week ever pass where you don't feel the inescapable urge to
flame those who work at museums, regardless of their knowledge, ability and
track record?
Ah... no, only where their track record seems to be known that said
individuals were not capable of dealing with (let alone preserving)
historical data & hardware... even I saw that!
Admittedly, those that aren't capable, he does highlight (on occasion
"to the extreme") but this is *good* information if others were looking
to donate their equipment and wanted to avoid individuals or
organizations that didn't take good care of donations.
Teo Zenios wrote:
I feel even more strongly about this, having dealt with some particularly
clueless people at musuems and related organisations [1]. To the extent
that no part of my collection is ever going near a museum. There are many old machines that are worth
preserving but are better
off
in a museum then in somebody's cluttered basement left to rot.
There are cases where that's true - but I know how museums can't
possibly You are rude and insulting. Yes, damned rude even.
Wot? OMG! Say it ain't so!?! I thought the US had a lock on rude
induhviduals.... 'course, at times (more times, recently...), I think I
happen to be one of them as well....
I'm tired of the pussyfooting & mollycoddling (I hope these terms
translate OK to folks who don't speak American) around instead of
"saying what is meant" -- If you don't like what I (or ARD by extension)
have to say - here's a thought: *don't listen.* The delete key was
invented a long time ago for people who don't want to listen... it's
your right not to... use it. ;-)
In the US we (still.... barely...) have freedom of speech. Some places
don't have that. I get that, and I'm OK with that. AFAIK, everybody, no
matter where they live, have at least the freedom to *not listen.*
How dare you make such sweeping generalisations?
[[ snippage of ad nauseum... whatever... ]]
He didn't generalise. He did, however, state that after enough bad
interactions with clueless individuals that worked for/with museums (and
as most in the US are non-profit, they usually take what free /
volunteer help they can get, even if said help is clueless and nearly
useless) that no museum would have access to his items. In the US at
least, that would be his right. As far as I can tell (and IANAS) what
chunks of the Magna Carta that haven't been repealed/rewritten yet also
say he can do what he wants with his stuff, at least until the Queen
changes her mind... ;-)
But, no, it's much easier to take the moral high
ground and boast about how
clever you are and how much of an idiot most everyone else is.
And I've been called an idiot by ARD on at least one occasion (probably
much more than that ;-)... why? Because in his eyes, I am. There are a
lot of machines I own that I can't do chip-level repair on... On said
machines, I'm a board-swapper. I do own machines that he would be
reduced to the same level - he chooses not to own those machines. I do.
Guess what. As far as electronics repair... and you can quote me on
this: "I am an idiot." If I won the lottery tomorrow and could retire &
play with hobbies 24x7, I probably wouldn't be able to learn enough
about electronics troubleshooting & repair to hold a candle to ARD. (Not
to mention chemistry, metalwork or quantum physics...) I'm OK with that.
I do better than most, worse than some others. Sterling to doughnuts
(Hell, I'd take farthings to doughnuts... yes, I have some, yes, you'd
get the better deal!) tho, I probably know a lot more about driving
lorry (despite our steering wheels being on the wrong side... ;-) heavy
equipment[1], routing protocols, homebrewing and candlemaking... so on
those subjects, he's the idiot. ;-) Suffice to say, I doubt he's
offended. If he is, he can reply & say so. ;-)
And here is where Mike's reply begins....
Whoa!
Wot? OMG! Say it ain't so!?! We agree on something? ;-)
Talk about "rude and insulting," and making
"sweeping generalizations"...
He said he's dealt with "some particularly clueless people at museums;"
how
did you get "everyone who works at a museum is an idiot" out of that?
And if he and Curt decide that based on their bad experiences they won't
lend their systems again to a museum, I think that's their choice to make.
Finally, to suggest that he hasn't in fact "contributed to the preservation
of computer history" is preposterous and highly insulting; I don't see many
reverse-engineered HP schematics or extremely helpful posts "working with
people" on here with your name on them...
And, for those who say that ARD "keeps all the info instead of sharing"
--> he shares with the list everything he can, as often as he can, and
as well as he can with the equipment he owns.
Yes, he doesn't own a current scanner (partly because he can't fix it at
the discrete component level, which I may not agree with but is his
right) and may not have high-speed Internet access (again - still his
right - I have relatives that just recently got *electricity*), just
because his form of help "works around" these limitations, doesn't mean
it's not help. He's extremely helpful, even if it's calling someone an
idiot. Myself, I've been "helped" in the past by ARD in such manner, and
even helped a couple others in a similar manner. ;-)
Not many of his contributions are relevant to my
interests but I for one
certainly appreciate the time he spends helping the folks on here, in
the HP community and elsewhere
Right. I'd never even heard of a "crowbar" that wasn't used for
construction demolition before "meeting" ARD. (I've known him for almost
15 years[2], but never met him face-to-face, hence the quotes)
(even if his rants are a little repetitive at times)
> ;-)
And yes, in those "almost 15 years" I must admit... there has been some
repetition. ;-)
Sheesh!
Amen, bruddah!
I must say, that:
1) if you need help, ARD will always take time to help. It may not be
the help you "expect," but in the end you should *learn* from it. If you
don't, it's not ARD's fault. ;-)
2) This email was typed more & more increasingly under the influence of
a magical brew called "beer." Things at the top may seem slightly more
logical than things near the bottom, depending on your level of
sobriety. ;-)
Laterz,
"Merch"
=-=-=
[1] Yes, the backhoe I owned was built in England (JCB) & the owner's
manual _was_ in the Queen's English -- first time I'd seen
"Anti-clockwise" (versus - 'counter-') and "Dazzled" (when
your
high-beams / bright headlights are on) in print... ;-)
[2] Raise your hands -- who on this list are still part of the "Top 20?"
(/me...) ARD is right there... Sellam as well, but he's been quite
silent on the list lately[3]... It would be interesting to see Bill's
original records to see who were the first to sign up... Is that info
even available anymore?
[3] As was I in the recent past... much to everyone's pleasure. I ain't
dead yet, tho! ;-)
17 Oct
17 Oct
2:07 p.m.
Tony, does a
week ever pass where you don't feel the inescapable urge to
flame those who work at museums, regardless of their knowledge, ability and
track record?
Ah... no, only where their track record seems to be known that said
individuals were not capable of dealing with (let alone preserving)
historical data & hardware... even I saw that! You are rude
and insulting. Yes, damned rude even.
Wot? OMG! Say it ain't so!?! I thought the US had a lock on rude
induhviduals.... 'course, at times (more times, recently...), I think I
happen to be one of them as well.... And I've been called an idiot by ARD on at least
one occasion (probably
much more than that ;-)... why? Because in his eyes, I am. There are a
lot of machines I own that I can't do chip-level repair on... On said
Well, then it's high time I aught you how to do component level repair :-)
machines, I'm a board-swapper. I do own machines
that he would be
reduced to the same level - he chooses not to own those machines. I do.
You know, even with a modern PC, I doubt I'd be a real board-swapper, Oh,
I'd probably end up replacing a board, becuae there's not a lot you can
do when all the logic is in a couple of BGA-packaged ASICs. But I would
make darn sure I knew what was really wrong first.
Guess what. As far as electronics repair... and you can quote me on
this: "I am an idiot." If I won the lottery tomorrow and could retire &
play with hobbies 24x7, I probably wouldn't be able to learn enough
about electronics troubleshooting & repair to hold a candle to ARD. (Not
to mention chemistry, metalwork or quantum physics...) I'm OK with that.
Quantum physics? Surely you jest. I may have a bit of paper that gives me
a qaualficiation in aprticle physics, but I can assure you the work I did
involved things like transputers, FAST, ECL, occam, microcode, etc and
not things like quarks and leptons.
I do better than most, worse than some others.
Sterling to doughnuts
(Hell, I'd take farthings to doughnuts... yes, I have some, yes, you'd
get the better deal!) tho, I probably know a lot more about driving
lorry (despite our steering wheels being on the wrong side... ;-) heavy
COnsdierign I have never learnt to drive a car, you are certainly right here.
equipment[1], routing protocols, homebrewing and
candlemaking... so on
Yep right again. Well, assuming 'homebrewing' means making beer [1] and not
homebrewing computer hardware. In the latter case, I think it's debatable
if you know more than me :-)
[1] Actually, I don't much care for beer [2]
[2] Notice I am expressing a personal opinion here. I am not saying that
those who do like to drink beer are idiots or not worth bothering with,
or... I am not suggesting that pubs should be closed down.
those subjects, he's the idiot. ;-) Suffice to
say, I doubt he's
offended. If he is, he can reply & say so. ;-)
Why on earth would I be offended by that? I can name a dozen -- no more
than that -- subjects that I know next-to-nothing about. And I'll bet
that for at least some of them there are people here who have
considerable knowledge. So what? Heck, I can think of plenty of classic
computers where others here know a lot more than me.
My problem is not with people who have limited knowledge in a particular
area and realise that. They may well not need or want to know any more
about that subject,, or they may want to learn about it. Either way, no
problem. No, what I have a problem with is people who have a limited
knowledge but end up doing a job that requires said knowledge, to the
detriment of others (or in this case, to the detriment of computer
preservation)
[...]
And, for those who say that ARD "keeps all the
info instead of sharing"
--> he shares with the list everything he can, as often as he can, and
as well as he can with the equipment he owns.
Yes, he doesn't own a current scanner (partly because he can't fix it at
the discrete component level, which I may not agree with but is his
right) and may not have high-speed Internet access (again - still his
right - I have relatives that just recently got *electricity*), just
Also remember that while _I_ don't own a scanner, this doesn't mean that
things I produce can never be scanned. It's happeend many times in the
past, and it will happen in the future (I hope).
because his form of help "works around"
these limitations, doesn't mean
it's not help. He's extremely helpful, even if it's calling someone an
idiot. Myself, I've been "helped" in the past by ARD in such manner, and
even helped a couple others in a similar manner. ;-)
I try to reply to _every_ personal e-mail on a subject that I might
reasonably be expected to have some information (clasisc computing,
electronics, etc). The reply may well be 'Oh, I am not the person to ask
about that, you might want to contact $expert'. Or Imight suggest what
book or manual to look in. Or whatever. But I will try and reply.
There is one point though. If the answer requires a significant amount of
work on my part (e.g. I have to dig out a machine, dismantle it, set it
up, make masurements, etc), I will still probalby do it _sometime_, but
it's when I feel like it. If you want a next-day consultancy service, you
can darn well pay for it :-).
> Not many of his contributions are relevant to my interests but I for one
> certainly appreciate the time he spends helping the folks on here, in
> the HP community and elsewhere
One minor point. The term 'HP community' apparently has a specific
meaning, it's a group of people that I am told I am not, and never will
be, a mamber of. This doesn't stop me fixing old HP machines and sharing
information on how to do so.
[...]
I must say, that:
1) if you need help, ARD will always take time to help. It may not be
the help you "expect," but in the end you should *learn* from it. If you
don't, it's not ARD's fault. ;-)
Thank you... Be warned, ig you ask me to help you diagnose a hardware
fault, even if I am pretty sure I know what component is causing the
problem, i will almost certainly get you to make measurements to prove
it. That way, you (hopefully) get to learn how to trace faults yourself
next time. Not because I don't want to be bothered, but because I would
like this knowledge to be preserved.
[1] Yes, the backhoe I owned was built in England
(JCB) & the owner's
manual _was_ in the Queen's English -- first time I'd seen
"Anti-clockwise" (versus - 'counter-') and "Dazzled" (when
your
high-beams / bright headlights are on) in print... ;-)
Often the 'high beams' are known as 'main beams' over here. As opposed to
'dipped beams/headlights'. The swtich to select between them is the
'dipper switch' or 'dip swtich'. The original (trade?) name for a twin
filamanet headlight bulb was a 'double dipper'.
Incidentally, what word would you generally used for 'dazzled'?
[2] Raise your hands -- who on this list are still
part of the "Top 20?"
(/me...) ARD is right there... Sellam as well, but he's been quite
silent on the list lately[3]... It would be interesting to see Bill's
original records to see who were the first to sign up... Is that info
even available anymore?
All I can remember is that when I joined you had to send an e-mail giving
the reasons why you wanted to be on the list, your interests, etc.
-tony
5 p.m.
On Sun, 17 Oct 2010, Tony Duell wrote:
Often the 'high beams' are known as 'main
beams' over here. As opposed to
'dipped beams/headlights'. The swtich to select between them is the
'dipper switch' or 'dip swtich'. The original (trade?) name for a twin
filamanet headlight bulb was a 'double dipper'.
Incidentally, what word would you generally used for 'dazzled'?
"blinded".
Unfortunately, the lack of differentiation between "flash blindness" and
permanent damage has led to many people believing that thousands of people
have permanently lost their eyesight due to laser pointers.
In USA, it is called a "dimmer switch" and "dual beam", and high beams
are
NEVER called "main", possibly due to the likelihood that the clueless will
misinterpret that to mean that they should almost ALWAYS be in the "high"
position.
The filaments in a dual beam "sealed beam" headlight are not individually
replaceable. If you can intercept one being discarded, the use of the
remaining filament makes it a very handy load for power supply testing.
The dimmer switch is now on the steering column in a multi-purpose
combination switch that controls enough things that it is not generally
considered to be repairable, in lieu of replaceable.
I remember when the dimmer switch was a button for the left foot.
7:25 p.m.
On 10/17/2010 2:00 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
On Sun, 17 Oct 2010, Tony Duell wrote:
Ya and frankly wish it were still the case. Every time I try to dim
the lights something else comes on. Never have quite got the hang of
it... lol ...OK 20 lashes for taking things even further off topic!
steve
Often the 'high beams' are known as
'main beams' over here. As opposed to
'dipped beams/headlights'. The swtich to select between them is the
'dipper switch' or 'dip swtich'. The original (trade?) name for a twin
filamanet headlight bulb was a 'double dipper'.
Incidentally, what word would you generally used for 'dazzled'?
"blinded".
Unfortunately, the lack of differentiation between "flash blindness" and
permanent damage has led to many people believing that thousands of people
have permanently lost their eyesight due to laser pointers.
In USA, it is called a "dimmer switch" and "dual beam", and high
beams are
NEVER called "main", possibly due to the likelihood that the clueless will
misinterpret that to mean that they should almost ALWAYS be in the "high"
position.
The filaments in a dual beam "sealed beam" headlight are not individually
replaceable. If you can intercept one being discarded, the use of the
remaining filament makes it a very handy load for power supply testing.
The dimmer switch is now on the steering column in a multi-purpose
combination switch that controls enough things that it is not generally
considered to be repairable, in lieu of replaceable.
I remember when the dimmer switch was a button for the left foot.
7:33 p.m.
> The dimmer switch is now on the steering column
in a multi-purpose
> combination switch that controls enough things that it is not generally
> considered to be repairable, in lieu of replaceable.
> I remember when the dimmer switch was a button for the left foot.
On Sun, 17 Oct 2010, steve shumaker wrote:
Ya and frankly wish it were still the case. Every
time I try to dim
the lights something else comes on. Never have quite got the hang of
it... lol ...OK 20 lashes for taking things even further off topic!
Our best hope is that someday, maybe computer user interface designers
will realize the issues.
8:56 p.m.
steve shumaker wrote:
Ya and frankly wish it were still the case. Every
time I try to dim
the lights something else comes on. Never have quite got the hang of
it... lol ...OK 20 lashes for taking things even further off topic!
Drifting into talk about cars seems to have been a feature of this list for
the fifteen or so years that I've been on it :-) In the 90s there used to be
stray gun-related messages too, but those don't seem to put in the appearance
that they once did.
cheers
Jules
8:54 p.m.
Fred Cisin wrote:
In USA, it is called a "dimmer switch" and
"dual beam", and high beams are
NEVER called "main", possibly due to the likelihood that the clueless will
misinterpret that to mean that they should almost ALWAYS be in the "high"
position.
It's just "lights" for dipped beam around here, and "brights" for
mains. How
widespread that is in the rest of the US (or even this state) I'm not sure;
maybe it's just a regional thing.
The filaments in a dual beam "sealed beam"
headlight are not individually
replaceable. If you can intercept one being discarded, the use of the
remaining filament makes it a very handy load for power supply testing.
Indeed. Plus our local farm supply place sells sealed beam lights cheaply, so
there's not likely to be a shortage of them any time soon (well, unless the
government makes up put CFLs in our cars ;)
The dimmer switch is now on the steering column in a
multi-purpose
combination switch that controls enough things that it is not generally
considered to be repairable, in lieu of replaceable.
I remember when the dimmer switch was a button for the left foot.
Yes, our truck has it down by the left foot. On our more modern Toyota it's
one of the 'stalks' on the steering column, which is where I've seen it on
most vehicles in the last 30 years.
JOOI, how many countries other than the US often have vehicles with a parking
brake mounted in the front footwell? Almost always on UK vehicles it was
between the front seats (where it is on some US vehicles, but not so many). I
remember Australia and New Zealand having the same setup as the UK, but I'm
not sure what other countries do...
cheers
Jules
18 Oct
18 Oct
3:17 p.m.
On Sun, 17 Oct 2010, Tony Duell wrote:
OK... That's also said over here, but normally as slang rather than
written in manuals.
Often the 'high beams' are known as
'main beams' over here. As opposed to
'dipped beams/headlights'. The swtich to select between them is the
'dipper switch' or 'dip swtich'. The original (trade?) name for a twin
filamanet headlight bulb was a 'double dipper'.
Incidentally, what word would you generally used for 'dazzled'?
"blinded". Unfortunately, the lack of differentiation between
"flash blindness" and
permanent damage has led to many people believing that thousands of people
have permanently lost their eyesight due to laser pointers.
In USA, it is called a "dimmer switch" and "dual beam", and high
beams are
Interesting...
As I understnad it, the original anti-dazzel device for electric
headlamps was a rheostat (variable resistor) to dim them. This was
replaced by a mechancial dipping system, when you pressed the dipswitch,
the RH (nearest the centre of the road/oncoming traffic) was turned off,
and the LH one was moved mechancially by a solenoid. Then came the
twin-filament design whcih is, of course still used on most cars today.
So the original really was a 'dimmer'.
NEVER called "main", possibly due to the
likelihood that the clueless will
misinterpret that to mean that they should almost ALWAYS be in the "high"
position.
The filaments in a dual beam "sealed beam" headlight are not individually
Sealed beam headlamps (large glass envelope incorporatign the reflector
and front lens) have fallen out of fashion oer here. Most cars have a
reflector/lense assembly (often approximately rectangular) with a
twin-filament bulb inserted from the rear. Often these days it's a
tungsten halgoen bulb. when it fails, you replace just the bulb. But of
course you do have to replace both filaments together.
Actually, my father's current car, a Skoda, has separate tungsten halogen
signle filament buibs for the main and dipped beams. So you only have to
rrplace the filament that's failed.
replaceable. If you can intercept one being
discarded, the use of the
remaining filament makes it a very handy load for power supply testing.
Indeed. Of coruse part-failed twin filamanet bulbs are good for this too.
You normally have to specially order them, but 6V car bulbs are
available. A 6V headlamp bulb will typically have a couple of filaments
rated at 30-odd watts each. Which make ideal loads for large-ish 5V
supplies (put both in parallel for a 10A or so load). The 6% 5W tail lamp
bulb is good for smaller supplies.
The dimmer switch is now on the steering column in a multi-purpose
combination switch that controls enough things that it is not generally
considered to be repairable, in lieu of replaceable.
Sme over here. Actually, most of those multi-function swtiches can be
taken apart, contacts cleaned, etc.
I remember when the dimmer switch was a button for the
left foot.
I;'ve never been in such a car, but I've got plenty of books describing
them. A friend of mine drives a car where the (oriignal equipment)
windscreen washer pump is on the floor, left foot operated.
-tony
4:55 p.m.
On Mon, 18 Oct 2010, Tony Duell wrote:
The starter motor used to be operated by a floor button
replaced by a mechancial dipping system, when you
pressed the dipswitch,
setting dipswitches while driving? :-)
I remember
when the dimmer switch was a button for the left foot.
I;'ve never been in such
a car, but I've got plenty of books describing
them. A friend of mine drives a car where the (oriignal equipment)
windscreen washer pump is on the floor, left foot operated. 
5:06 p.m.
Fred Cisin [cisin at xenosoft.com] wrote:
The starter motor used to be operated by a floor
button
The "starter motor" used to be a sweaty bloke standing in front
of the car ...
Antonio
5:16 p.m.
> The starter motor used to be operated by a floor
button
On Mon, 18 Oct 2010 arcarlini at iee.org wrote:
The "starter motor" used to be a sweaty
bloke standing in front
of the car ...
like Kettering's friend, . . .
It has been 30 years since the last time that I cranked a car
5:21 p.m.
I remember when the dimmer switch was a button for the
left foot.
I;'ve never been in such a car, but I've got plenty of books
describing
them. A friend of mine drives a car where the (oriignal equipment)
windscreen washer pump is on the floor, left foot operated. 
5003
days inactive
5005
days old
13 comments
8 participants
participants (8)
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arcarlini＠iee.org -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
dm561＠torfree.net -
jules.richardson99＠gmail.com -
shumaker＠att.net -
wdonzelli＠gmail.com -
zmerch-cctalk＠30below.com