Fw: Promoting Classic Computers [was Re: Chip with holes in it] - test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org

15 Nov 2002

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Galt" &lt;gmphillips(a)earthlink.net&gt;
To: &lt;cctech(a)classiccmp.org&gt;
Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 11:08 PM
Subject: Re: Promoting Classic Computers [was Re: Chip with holes in it]

...
  I'm a chip collector and I would like to take a
moment to defend my hobby.

 1.  Most chip collectors are very particular about protecting their chips.
 We just don't
      throw them in the bottom of a drawer like some "computer
enthusiasts".
...
  I could not
      count the times that I've bought chips on EBAY auctions that were
 displayed
      loose in a coffee can from someone who had found them in grandpa's
 shop.
      Do you really think these chips are better off going in the trash than
...
  into some
      chip collectors collection?

 2.  Once a chip ends up in a chip collectors collection it's not gone from
 the face
      of the earth.  It's carefully preserved for future generations.

 3.  The argument that a chip is better off inside a vintage computer is like
...
  saying
      a coin is better off in circulation serving its "intended" purpose
than
...
  in some
      collectors collection.

 4.  Many of the chips that chip collectors pay alot of money for are
"rare"
...
  varieties
      of "common" chips.  For example, an Intel C8080 vs. C8080A.   Vintage
      computer enthusiasts don't "need" an Intel C8080.  In fact, you would
 probably
      be better off with the more common and "improved" C8080A.

 5.  I think that alot of vintage computer enthusiasts think that chip
 collectors are
      out there busting up Altair 8800's with sledge hammers to get the chips
...
  out of
      them.  That's simply not true.  Chip collectors hang out on in the same
...
       areas of EBAY that you do.  We know full well
what rare machines are
 worth.
      I'll assure you, chip collectors are not breaking up old machines for
 chips.

      In fact, it's just the opposite.  I know a number of vintage machines
 that have
      been "saved" by chip collectors because they recognized what they
were.
...

 6.  There are FAR more chips than there are vintage computers.  Without chip
...
       collectors there would not be much of a market
for all these chips.
 Sure
      you would be able to buy an C8008 for 1$ then but... You would also
 have
      people throwing the old chips in the trash because they were not worth
...
       listing on EBAY.

      If you really want a supply of vintage chips for your vintage machines
...
  in
      20-30 years then you should be glad that a C8008 brings $100 on EBAY
      because of chip collectors.  The reason you should be glad is because
 as the
      word gets out that the early chips are worth money, less of them will
 end up
      in the trash.

 7.  Chips collectors will often sell chips for LESS than you would pay for
 them
      from a parts distributor.  Also, many distributors will not sell small
...
  quantities.
      I have sold spare chips out of my collection to vintage computer
 enthusiasts.
      Most collectors have "spares" that they acquire for trading.  If you
 need a
      particular chip, changes are good that you can get one from a collector
...
  if
      you offer the collector some other chip that you have several of.

 8.  There's only a handful of "serious" collectors who are willing to pay
      $500-$1000 for rare versions of early chips.  Most chip
      collectors collect 186's, 286's, 386's, 486's, etc.  In otherwords,
 chips that
      vintage computer enthusiasts don't really care about anyway.

      The only thing vintage computer enthusiasts notice is that old chips
 routinely
      bring hundreds of dollars of EBAY.  What you don't notice is that
it's
...
  the same
      group of a dozen collectors that are buying them.  If the handful of
 serious chip
      collectors were to each obtain an example of every chip every made, it
...
  would
      not have much effect at all on the ability of vintage computer
 enthusiasts to
      obtain replacement parts for your machines.  If you want to blame
 someone
      for the high price of vintage chips, blame the people who melted down
 millions
      of them for their gold content in the 80's, don't blame the handful
of
...
  serious
      chip collectors.

 9.  I agree that a functioning vintage machine is "more interesting" than
a
...
  chip
      in a display case.  Most vintage chip collectors drool over the vintage
...
  machines
      that you guys have and not because of the chips in them either. That
...
  said,
      we also recognize that the chips themselves have historic value and
 should
      be preserved.   Many chip collectors would like to one day obtain a
      working vintage machine but I know more than a few who have abandoned
      this idea once they figured out that many vintage computer enthusiasts
...
       have such a negative view of chip collectors.

      That said, it's alot easier to get into chip collecting than vintage
 computer
      collecting.  Chip collecting has the potential to bring alot of new
 faces
      into the world of vintage computers but unfortunately I don't see that
...
       happening any time soon.

      What many of you old timers don't realize it that the "youngsters"
that
...
  came
      along after the 8088 naturally see computers as a collection of
 components.
      Computer enthusiasts today don't buy prebuilt machines, they build them
...
       from components and then constantly upgrade them.
 The very concept of
...
       of collecting an entire machine is foreign to
them because their
 machines
      are constantly changing.

      That said, many of these types already have chip collections, their
 collections are old
      CPU's they saved when they upgraded their machines over the years. You
...
  bring
      up chip collecting and they say that's pretty cool, I already have a
 small collection.

      The same younger computer enthusiasts are the very people you need to
 keep your
      hobby going but the sad thing is, many of the same people will try and
...
  entire
      your world from the world of chip collecting and be totally turned off
...
  by your
      attitudes toward chip collectors.

 ----- Original Message -----
 From: "Brian Chase" &lt;vaxzilla(a)jarai.org&gt;
 To: &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt;
 Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 4:13 PM
 Subject: Promoting Classic Computers [was Re: Chip with holes in it]

  On Wed, 13 Nov 2002, Will Jennings wrote:

  I find that sellers auctions disturbing, since at
least one the boards
 has a comment of "just removed from the rack"  : ( 
 I find the whole practice of "chip collecting" a bit disturbing.  Mainly
 because it means functioning, useful, components are becoming scarcer
 for those people who could actually put them to use.  And then
 secondarily, it creates a market for the willful destruction of what
 might be otherwise working systems or subsystems.

 There's difficulty in attempting to educate people that working systems
 are more interesting, and valuable, than disassembled bits of them.  It
 /is/ solely a matter of viewpoint, and not everyone has the skills or
 resources to collect like most people here do, but getting even a few of
 them to see things our way is progress.

 Evangelizing on the behalf of classic computing is something we all
 should be doing. I tend to do a lot of that when it comes to my VAXen.
 And where permitted, I always have a classic computer or two on the
 network at my workplace. The NeXT that's beside my new iMac at work
 always raises eyebrows and generates a lot of questions.

 Other things that help are contributing to the various computer museums
 (money, unique equipment, your time, etc.)  Providing information to
 people on this list is useful.  The documentation scanning projects are
 wonderful resources.  The publicity generated by things like the VCF is
 good; Sellam getting visibity in Wired and on Tech TV raises awareness
 in a broader audience than could be otherwise achieved.  And I think
 books like _Collectible Microcomputers_ and Christian Wurster's
 _Computers: An Illustrated History_ are useful to have lying around as
 coffee table material.

 -brian.