In response to my rant: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> replied: For want of a better word to describe what we do (as opposed to "collect"), I used enthusiast. But if anyone has a better suggestion, I think it is quite useful to make this distinction. I've never been into coin or stamp collecting, so I don't know whether there are actually different mindsets for people collecting them as an investment vs. some other reason. Since I've put my rant up on my web page, maybe I should think about this some more and expand upon it. At VCF I spoke at some length with someone who writes for Wired (but not the person that wrote their VCF writeup). I told him my analogy of coin/stamp vs. classic car collectors. I'm hoping to see it in print some day.

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At 05:14 PM 99/10/13 -0600, you wrote: For what it's worth, I'm also an enthusiast/collector of old radios from the 1920s and 30s, and eBay has caused the same thing to happen with prices in that realm. Old radios and speakers are changing hands at values far above what they're actually "worth", based on the number still in existence, the technologies used, etc. This cost craziness has even spilled over into the local secondhand/antique market, where radios that used to be fairly priced at say $100 are now price tagged at say $400-$500. I think that speculation on eBay has caused prices to rise artifically, to the detriment of those who seek to acquire for love of the technology and the fun of getting old radios (or old computers) working again. These things are significant parts of history that will be lost unless some folks care enough to preserve them. Kevin --- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi(a)sfu.ca

Whereas I agree that there is a differentiation between the "collector" and the "enthusiast", I must take umbrage to the ,again, generalization of the person who pays "too much" on ebay automatically being "collector assholes, just because he had deep pockets". Are you implying that one must be of modest means to be an "enthusiast". If you saw a rare whatnot that you had always loved and wanted to tinker with, and had the financial means to acquire it, would you let it go to the scrap because you thought the asking price was too high? Would you let it go to a "collector asshole" because you thought the asking price was too high? If this is the case then you obviously didn't "want" the item that much or didn't have that much passion for it. Perhaps this activity can be further classified as "bargain vintage computer enthusiast". I am both an enthusiast and a collector. I try to get working what I can, but I don't stop acquiring if I know that I won't have time to get around to something. Maybe a computer has special meaning to me, and I just want to have one, and I have the financial resources to do it, does that make me an asshole? Now of course, there are people who would purchase something simply for the "coolness" of having it. With the advent of ebay, those who have deeper pockets are now playing the game. It's a real bummer having to pay lots for stuff that used to be given to you. But hey, that's life. Is the guy who drives a Ferrari an asshole because you drive a Ford (of course he could be, but not just because he drives the Ferrari of course). I fully understand the frustration, but venting it by making generalizations of those who happen to be better financially equipped than you, or are just willing to pay more for something than you, is just immature. I get just as bummed as anyone else when something that I've been wanting goes for more than what I'm willing to pay ($100 for an HP Integral, nope, don't think so, but dang, I've been wanting one for a very long time now), but at least it's not going to a scrapper (in my opinion, our true enemies). And yes, I know that those who don't have a passion for the item is more likely to scrap it if it's investment value/cool factor diminishes, so no come-backs about this are necessary. Another thing is this whole "if someone paid more than what I think something's worth, then they must be one of these slimeball collector folk" attitude. Before I discovered things like live auctions, ebay was the best/only (or so I thought at the time) to acquire things. If it is your only reasonable source, then of course you would be willing to pay more for something than someone who lives next door to Weird Stuff. Anyway, sorry for the long rant, but this whole "attitude" thing just irks me and I've been averaging like 4 hrs of sleep for the last couple of weeks (new baby + company being bought out) so I guess I'm a bit touchy (and not too coherent). So, whine about how hard it is to get stuff on cheap, fine, I do that all the time (just ask my wife). Call the guy who purchased an Altair for $2K an asshole/loser collector/not worthy, well, anyway, you now know how I feel. George

Tony Duell wrote: The same could be said about newcomers to this list, and just about anyone I don't know. This is something only time will correct. The same goes on ebay. After a while, you see a lot of the same people bidding on stuff. The other not so minor detail is that people that pay for this stuff will probably not send it to that junkyard in the sky.

[SNIP] The fact that you don't know who it's going to is part of my point. It's the automatic assumption that if someone paid more than what you (not you specificially, just the generic "you") view as "too much", then they must be doing it for nefarious reasons. [SNIP] My point was that the asking price was more than what you thought was reasonable (i.e. would you sacrafice your moral ideal as to what the item is worth to "save" it?) What, you'd be willing to spend over $100 for an Integral, you must obviously be some collector scum. Your ruining my enthusiasts pursuits by artificially driving up prices of Integrals ;) George

I didn't think that I implied that you implied that enthusiasts don't hang out there. At least re-reading my paragraph doesn't seem to say that, to me anyway (then again it wouldn't since I wrote it ;) Yes, I hate that too. It was just the statement that those that "collect" are automatically assholes. [SNIP] The original question asked that if you actually had the means to purchase and you thought the asking price was too high. If you'd let it go, then you really didn't care that much about the item to begin with. Especially if you consider a collector to be detrimental to preserving the hardware (to clarify, you never made a statement about collectors doing this, but others have). [SNIP] What! are you saying that I'm being intolerant of your intolerance ;) Actually it's not a generalization, I'm addressing specific comments and stated attitudes. George