13 Jan
2017
13 Jan
'17
8:38 a.m.
From: William Degnan
some are made to handle both pal and ntsc
automatically. ... not sure
if they still do all that for LCD tv's but why not?
Well, one thing most LCD's don't handle is interlaced video, so that could be
an issue.
Noel
13 Jan
13 Jan
8:59 a.m.
On Fri, 2017-01-13 at 08:38 -0500, Noel Chiappa wrote:
????> From: William Degnan
????> some are made to handle both pal and ntsc automatically. ...
not sure
????> if they still do all that for LCD tv's but why not?
Well, one thing most LCD's don't handle is interlaced video, so that
could be an issue.
Anything sold as a TV (as opposed to a computer monitor) will include a
deinterlacer; a TV that could only handle progressive scan input would
be unacceptable to most consumers. Standard definition broadcasts were
always interlaced and so are most/all DVDs, though as far as I know
Blu-ray is progressive scan only. Even high definition broadcasts are
still routinely interlaced in many cases. ATSC for example can be
either 1080i or 720p, and I think the majority of DVB broadcasts are
1080i.
In fact, even computer monitors often tend to include some sort of
deinterlacing capability, though I suspect this is more because it
comes for free with the chipsets than because the market actually
requires it. But monitors tend to have a minimum horizontal sync rate
of 20kHz or so and often won't lock to a 480i/576i input, so they'd be
no use for the current purpose anyway.
p.
9:07 a.m.
On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 8:59 AM, Phil Blundell <pb at pbcl.net> wrote:
On Fri, 2017-01-13 at 08:38 -0500, Noel Chiappa
wrote:
Anything sold as a TV (as opposed to a computer monitor) will include a
deinterlacer; a TV that could only handle progressive scan input would
be unacceptable to most consumers. Standard definition broadcasts were
always interlaced and so are most/all DVDs, though as far as I know
Blu-ray is progressive scan only. Even high definition broadcasts are
still routinely interlaced in many cases. ATSC for example can be
either 1080i or 720p, and I think the majority of DVB broadcasts are
1080i.
In fact, even computer monitors often tend to include some sort of
deinterlacing capability, though I suspect this is more because it
comes for free with the chipsets than because the market actually
requires it. But monitors tend to have a minimum horizontal sync rate
of 20kHz or so and often won't lock to a 480i/576i input, so they'd be
no use for the current purpose anyway.
p.
So I guess what you're saying is, get a last-gen CRT TV that claims PAL and
NTSC automatic capability. I don't have mine anymore, but it was my bench
monitor, I have PAL Commodores I used to use it on. Wish I remembered the
manufacturer.
b
From:
William Degnan
some are made to handle both pal and ntsc
automatically. ...
not sure
if they still do all that for LCD tv's but
why not?
Well, one thing most LCD's don't handle is interlaced video, so that
could be an issue. 
9:37 a.m.
I have a number of systems that require PAL and I was looking on Ebay for dual NTSC / PAL
monitors, and if necessary I can handle the power conversion requirements. Any
recommendations for a monitor that can work with Amstrad/Sinclair, BBC's, the
Archimedes, and the like. I figure more than one may be necessary.
On Jan 13, 2017, at 8:07 AM, william degnan
<billdegnan at gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 8:59 AM, Phil Blundell
<pb at pbcl.net> wrote:
On Fri, 2017-01-13 at 08:38 -0500, Noel Chiappa wrote:
Anything sold as a TV (as opposed to a computer monitor) will include a
deinterlacer; a TV that could only handle progressive scan input would
be unacceptable to most consumers. Standard definition broadcasts were
always interlaced and so are most/all DVDs, though as far as I know
Blu-ray is progressive scan only. Even high definition broadcasts are
still routinely interlaced in many cases. ATSC for example can be
either 1080i or 720p, and I think the majority of DVB broadcasts are
1080i.
In fact, even computer monitors often tend to include some sort of
deinterlacing capability, though I suspect this is more because it
comes for free with the chipsets than because the market actually
requires it. But monitors tend to have a minimum horizontal sync rate
of 20kHz or so and often won't lock to a 480i/576i input, so they'd be
no use for the current purpose anyway.
p.
So I guess what you're saying is, get a last-gen CRT TV that claims PAL
and
NTSC automatic capability. I don't have mine anymore, but it was my bench
monitor, I have PAL Commodores I used to use it on. Wish I remembered the
manufacturer.
b From:
William Degnan
some are made to handle both pal and ntsc
automatically. ...
not sure
if they still do all that for LCD tv's but
why not?
Well, one thing most LCD's don't handle is interlaced video, so that
could be an issue. 
10:49 a.m.
On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 2:37 PM, Kurt K <kurtk7 at centurylink.net> wrote:
I have a number of systems that require PAL and I was
looking on Ebay for dual
NTSC / PAL monitors, and if necessary I can handle the power conversion requirements.
Any recommendations for a monitor that can work with Amstrad/Sinclair, BBC's, the
Archimedes, and the like. I figure more than one may be necessary.
My LCD television (Sony KDL-22E5300) claims to be able to display PAL, PAL60 (I
assume PAL with 60Hz vertical), SECAM (doesn't say which one), NTSC (with either
a 3.58MHz or 4.43MHz subcarrier). It also has a VGA input, analogue
(TV rate) RGB
and 'component video' (the last if you happen to have a Tatung
Einstein computer, I
guess :-)). I am sure other TVs of a similar date (about 6-7 years
old) have similar
facilities, maybe more modern ones do as well.
On my workbench I have a little (9") Sony Trinitron monitor. It's the sort of
thing that was used for moniitoring signals in a TV studio. It's a model
PVM9044QM. It can handle just about any TV rate video (US or UK
rates), PAL, NTSC, Secam, analogue RGB (seperate sync or sync on
green), component video, S video, etc. OK, 9" is probably too small for
normal use, but it is ideal on the bench as it will display the output of just
about any home computer. Be warned it's complex inside, 2 large PCBs full
of chips and several smaller ones.
As for power, the TV runs off normal UK 240V mains. The workbench monitor
runs off ACmains from 100V to 240V or off a 12V DC supply.
-tony
11:17 a.m.
On 13 January 2017 at 15:49, Tony Duell <ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com> wrote:
On my workbench I have a little (9") Sony
Trinitron monitor. It's the sort
of
thing that was used for moniitoring signals in a TV studio. It's a model
PVM9044QM. It can handle just about any TV rate video (US or UK
rates), PAL, NTSC, Secam, analogue RGB (seperate sync or sync on
green), component video, S video, etc. OK, 9" is probably too small for
normal use, but it is ideal on the bench as it will display the output of
just
about any home computer. Be warned it's complex inside, 2 large PCBs full
of chips and several smaller ones.
I bought one of those recently ostensibly as a monitor for my Apple ][s but
like you say it's capable of pretty much anything you can throw at it.
ukp25 too, bargain.
I didn't think of putting my Einstein through my big TV, instead I spent
quite a bit on the official Tatung monitor for an exhibition I was doing.
--
adrian/witchy
Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection?
www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk
1:02 p.m.
On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 4:17 PM, Adrian Graham
<binarydinosaurs at gmail.com> wrote:
On 13 January 2017 at 15:49, Tony Duell
<ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com> wrote:
[Sony PVM9044QM]
I bought one of those recently ostensibly as a monitor
for my Apple ][s but
like you say it's capable of pretty much anything you can throw at it.
ukp25 too, bargain.
You can get the service manual from elektrotanya, and believe me you
need it!
I didn't think of putting my Einstein through my big TV, instead I spent
quite a bit on the official Tatung monitor for an exhibition I was doing.
The Einstein can output either RGB (analogue) + sync or 'Component
video' (luminance and 2 colour difference signals). There are links on the
PCB to select which.
I've never seen the official Tatung monitor for it. I assume it's based on
a common TV chassis design. (The Einstein PSU is very similar to some
1980s Decca/Tatung TV power supply circuits).
-tony
3:05 p.m.
I use a TV tuner/video capture card (Hauppauge WinTV-D) and DScaler to
display output from my PAL Commodore 128D either composite or Y/C. It works
quite well actually. I did try a cheapy PAL/NTSC converter from eBay but
any horizontal movement is terrible since it doesn't do any
framebuffering/pulldown necessary to handle the difference in refresh
rates. Dscaler displays just about perfect (although the Hauppauge card
introduces a bit of noise in the video).
On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 12:02 PM, Tony Duell <ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 4:17 PM, Adrian Graham
<binarydinosaurs at gmail.com> wrote:
On 13 January 2017 at 15:49, Tony Duell
<ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com> wrote:
[Sony PVM9044QM]
I bought one of those recently ostensibly as a
monitor for my Apple ][s
but
like you say it's capable of pretty much
anything you can throw at it.
ukp25 too, bargain.
You can get the service manual from elektrotanya, and believe me you
need it!
I didn't think of putting my Einstein through my big TV, instead I spent
quite a bit on the official Tatung monitor for an exhibition I was doing.
The Einstein can output either RGB (analogue) + sync or 'Component
video' (luminance and 2 colour difference signals). There are links on the
PCB to select which.
I've never seen the official Tatung monitor for it. I assume it's based on
a common TV chassis design. (The Einstein PSU is very similar to some
1980s Decca/Tatung TV power supply circuits).
-tony
3:33 p.m.
On 13/01/2017 18:02, "Tony Duell" <ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com> wrote:
When it was released it was 'unique' for a home computer in that its video
output was YUV, I remember that being mentioned specifically.
On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 4:17 PM, Adrian Graham
<binarydinosaurs at gmail.com> wrote:
Just looked at the pics of someone servicing one, I'll go looking for the
manual :)
On 13 January 2017 at 15:49, Tony Duell
<ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com> wrote:
[Sony PVM9044QM]
I bought one of those recently ostensibly as a
monitor for my Apple ][s but
like you say it's capable of pretty much anything you can throw at it.
ukp25 too, bargain.
You can get the service manual from elektrotanya, and believe me you
need it! I didn't
think of putting my Einstein through my big TV, instead I spent
quite a bit on the official Tatung monitor for an exhibition I was doing.
The Einstein can output either RGB (analogue) + sync or 'Component
video' (luminance and 2 colour difference signals). There are links on the
PCB to select which. I've never seen the official Tatung monitor for
it. I assume it's based on
a common TV chassis design. (The Einstein PSU is very similar to some
1980s Decca/Tatung TV power supply circuits).
The monitor is a Hitachi chassis I think, dark-ish picture of my machine is
here: http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/einstein.jpg
And why oh why did I look on ebay for Einstein stuff....grr.... :)
--
Adrian/Witchy
Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator
Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer
collection?
3:51 p.m.
[Sony
PVM9044QM]
Just looked at the pics of someone servicing one, I'll go looking for the
manual :) I bought one of those recently ostensibly as a
monitor for my Apple ][s but
like you say it's capable of pretty much anything you can throw at it.
ukp25 too, bargain.
You can get the service manual from elektrotanya, and believe me you
need it! I've never
seen the official Tatung monitor for it. I assume it's based on
a common TV chassis design. (The Einstein PSU is very similar to some
1980s Decca/Tatung TV power supply circuits).
The monitor is a Hitachi chassis I think, dark-ish picture of my machine is
here: http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/einstein.jpg
And why oh why did I look on ebay for Einstein stuff....grr.... :)
Why? What happened?
-tony
4:51 p.m.
On 13/01/2017 20:51, "Tony Duell" <ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com> wrote:
So I see, it reminded me a bit of the Acorn Cambridge Workstation in that
respect.
Yes, you're probably right. I was all over the unofficial
tatungeinstein.co.uk last year when I was readying my machine for exhibition
since I could only find one games disk for it. Naturally I found them all a
few weeks ago. Said website is run by the nephew of a Tatung worker in
Telford and I'm sure he said who made the monitor but I can't find it now.
Just looked at
the pics of someone servicing one, I'll go looking for the
manual :)
It's actually not too bad to work on. The 2 main PCBs (deflection one side,
video processing on the other) are on fold-out frames. And in fact the whole
thing comes apart in a few minutes. If you can't find the service manual, I have the
one I downloaded...
Hopefully I won't need it for a long while but you never know!
The monitor is
a Hitachi chassis I think, dark-ish picture of my machine is
here: http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/einstein.jpg
That would surprise me, given that Tatung made TV sets (which were often
badged 'Decca' in the UK). Tandy sold a set based on the Tatung 160 chassis
as well. Given that, I would have thought they would have used
their own chassis
in this monitor.
I was reminded that the Einstein 256 existed and there's still a couple of
places selling unused ones - unused because there wasn't a market for them
AND the monitor powered the machine a la Amstrad. Not that I've got a spare
?250 of course, but...
--
Adrian/Witchy
Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator
Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer
collection?
And why oh why did I look on ebay for Einstein stuff....grr.... :)
Why? What happened? 
11:18 a.m.
On Jan 13, 2017, at 10:49 AM, Tony Duell
<ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 2:37 PM, Kurt K <kurtk7 at centurylink.net> wrote:
Just yesterday I was looking at roughly the opposite question: how to make a DVD (in the
USA) that my sister in Holland would be able to use. The impression I got is that PAL DVD
players will usually accept NTSC DVDs, and modern PAL TVs will accept a *digital* data
stream of NTSC video from such a player. But that doesn't necessarily mean they will
accept NTSC analog (for VCR output for example). Your report fits that story.
On the other hand, I also read that US TVs generally don't understand PAL, and US DVD
players don't either. My BlueRay player says that explicitly in its manual. It did
accept the "PAL" DVD I just burned, which might mean that I didn't do it
right and what I got was actually an NTSC disk...
One possible approach for US people to deal with PAL analog video is to feed it into a
video capture device. For example, the one sold by ElGato is documented as accepting
NTSC, PAL, and PAL60. It captures, of course (to H.264 movie files) but it will also
simply display what it's getting on the computer's screen.
paul
I have a number of systems that require PAL and I
was looking on Ebay for dual
NTSC / PAL monitors, and if necessary I can handle the power conversion requirements.
Any recommendations for a monitor that can work with Amstrad/Sinclair, BBC's, the
Archimedes, and the like. I figure more than one may be necessary.
My LCD television (Sony KDL-22E5300) claims to be able to display PAL, PAL60 (I
assume PAL with 60Hz vertical), SECAM (doesn't say which one), NTSC (with either
a 3.58MHz or 4.43MHz subcarrier). It also has a VGA input, analogue
(TV rate) RGB
and 'component video' (the last if you happen to have a Tatung
Einstein computer, I
guess :-)). I am sure other TVs of a similar date (about 6-7 years
old) have similar
facilities, maybe more modern ones do as well. 
11:24 a.m.
On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 8:18 AM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
Just yesterday I was looking at roughly the opposite question: how to make
a DVD (in the USA) that my sister in Holland would be able to use. The
impression I got is that PAL DVD players will usually accept NTSC DVDs, and
modern PAL TVs will accept a *digital* data stream of NTSC video from such
a player. But that doesn't necessarily mean they will accept NTSC analog
(for VCR output for example). Your report fits that story.
As loathe as I am to recommend Windows software, I seem to recall that Nero
will do a reasonable ("acceptably lossy") job of converting DVDs between
PAL/NTSC.
-- Charles
11:41 a.m.
On Jan 13, 2017, at 11:24 AM, Charles Anthony
<charles.unix.pro at gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 8:18 AM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
Thanks. On the Mac, iDVD will do this (more precisely, make a DVD in either format from
digital source material, which is what I have).
paul
Just yesterday I was looking at roughly the opposite question: how to make
a DVD (in the USA) that my sister in Holland would be able to use. The
impression I got is that PAL DVD players will usually accept NTSC DVDs, and
modern PAL TVs will accept a *digital* data stream of NTSC video from such
a player. But that doesn't necessarily mean they will accept NTSC analog
(for VCR output for example). Your report fits that story.
As loathe as I am to recommend Windows software, I seem to recall that Nero
will do a reasonable ("acceptably lossy") job of converting DVDs between
PAL/NTSC.
1:05 p.m.
On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 4:18 PM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
Just yesterday I was looking at roughly the opposite question: how to make a DVD (in the
USA)
that my sister in Holland would be able to use. The impression I got is that PAL DVD
players wil
l usually accept NTSC DVDs, and modern PAL TVs will accept a *digital* data stream of
NTSC
video from such a player. But that doesn't necessarily mean they will accept NTSC
analog (for
VCR output for example). Your report fits that story.
No, this TV will accept analogue NTSC video (such as from a VCR, or I
assume an Apple ][, not
that I have tried it).
But what one earth is a 'digital data stream of NTSC video'?
-tony
1:20 p.m.
On Jan 13, 2017, at 1:05 PM, Tony Duell
<ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 4:18 PM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
The stuff that comes out of the HDMI port of a DVD player, when playing an NTSC disk? But
note that I'm quoting, or paraphrasing, what I read when digging into the topic.
I'm still trying to make sense out of things.
The whole TV and DVD stuff is clearly obfuscated in amazing ways, probably in part
intentionally.
paul
Just yesterday I was looking at roughly the opposite question: how to make a DVD (in the
USA)
that my sister in Holland would be able to use. The impression I got is that PAL DVD
players wil
l usually accept NTSC DVDs, and modern PAL TVs will accept a *digital* data stream of
NTSC
video from such a player. But that doesn't necessarily mean they will accept NTSC
analog (for
VCR output for example). Your report fits that story.
No, this TV will accept analogue NTSC video (such as from a VCR, or I
assume an Apple ][, not
that I have tried it).
But what one earth is a 'digital data stream of NTSC video'?
1:34 p.m.
On Fri, 2017-01-13 at 11:18 -0500, Paul Koning wrote:
Just
yesterday I was looking at roughly the opposite question: how to
make a DVD (in the USA) that my sister in Holland would be able to
use.??The impression I got is that PAL DVD players will usually
accept NTSC DVDs, and modern PAL TVs will accept a *digital* data
stream of NTSC video from such a player.??But that doesn't
necessarily mean they will accept NTSC analog (for VCR output for
example).??Your report fits that story.
There are two different aspects to the video standard and they are
slightly orthogonal.
PAL, strictly, is a way of encoding chroma in a composite video signal
and an associated set of analogue TV broadcast standards. ?NTSC is the
name of the equivalent US TV standard which has a different way of
doing chroma. ?(And there's also SECAM which is different again...)
Most PAL-based systems use 576 lines and 50 fields per second, whereas
most NTSC-based systems use 480 lines and 60 fields per second, and so
PAL and NTSC have become more or less synonymous with 576i and 480i
video timing respectively. ?However, the opposite combinations do
exist, for example PAL-M uses 480i timings but (as the name suggests)
uses PAL encoding for colour.
But, most of these details of colour encoding are only relevant in the
analogue domain. ?Digital video, and even analogue component video,
doesn't have a chroma subcarrier at all so, technically, it is
meaningless to refer to "digital PAL". ?In the digital domain, either
compressed files on a DVD or pixels carried over an HDMI link, the only
thing that matters is the resolution and framerate. ?The aggregate data
rate in terms of pixels per second is about the same for both formats
and any modern device will almost certainly be able to cope with both.
So, yes, most TVs will be quite happy to accept either 480i or 576i
over HDMI and display it, and I assume this is what you mean by "a
digital stream of NTSC video". ?This applies even if they don't have
the capability of decoding NTSC colour, though actually I suspect quite
a lot of the TVs currently on sale are based on multistandard chipsets
and can quite likely do both. ?
Most "PAL" DVD players are also quite happy (region coding aside) to
decode and and output 480i video from a US-market disc. ?Though it's
worth noting that if you do that, the signal that comes out of the
analogue port is still PAL and not NTSC even though the video timings
will be the 480i ones.
p.
15 Jan
15 Jan
6:15 a.m.
On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 11:18:25AM -0500, Paul Koning wrote:
[...]
Just yesterday I was looking at roughly the opposite
question: how to make a
DVD (in the USA) that my sister in Holland would be able to use. [...]
The Dutch are impressively frugal so it's possible she has managed to find a
rare counterexample, but European TVs and DVD players play NTSC stuff just
fine.
13 Jan
13 Jan
1:25 p.m.
On 01/13/2017 07:49 AM, Tony Duell wrote:
Back in the day, a friend from the UK sent me a collection of VHS tapes
and a PAL video player. I ordered a PAL-to-RGB demodulator kit from a
small supplier and took the (analog) RGB output to my Mitsubishi
Diamondscan CRT monitor. Worked just fine.
--Chuck
12:11 p.m.
On 01/13/2017 07:38 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
LCD computer monitors may not handle interlaced video. I'm
sure some of them do.
But, I suspect all LCDs that can be used as TV monitors will
handle interlaced just fine. So, if it has a composite
video input, it will have interlace.
Jon
From: William
Degnan
some are made to handle both pal and ntsc
automatically. ... not sure
if they still do all that for LCD tv's but why not?
Well, one thing most LCD's don't handle is interlaced video, so that could be
an issue.
Noel
2731
days inactive
2733
days old
19 comments
13 participants
participants (13)
-
abuse＠cabal.org.uk -
ard.p850ug1＠gmail.com -
billdegnan＠gmail.com -
binarydinosaurs＠gmail.com -
cclist＠sydex.com -
charles.unix.pro＠gmail.com -
elson＠pico-systems.com -
jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu -
kurtk7＠centurylink.net -
oltmansg＠gmail.com -
paulkoning＠comcast.net -
pb＠pbcl.net -
witchy＠binarydinosaurs.co.uk