This comment (not specifically, but as it aligns with several others) serves to show how easy it is to get out of touch with what's happening in the institutions within which most of us spent 10-12 years of our lives. It's true that some (few, however) teachers are present before the majority of students are in the school. It's also true that some teachers remain present after the students are dismissed at the end of the school day. However, I'd add a couple of things to the already foul mix. First of all, if my skills as an observer are not totally off, and I made records of most of this, by the way, the ones who are present when the kids show up are generally the same ones who are present after they've left. In the three schools I observed, the faculty ranged in size between 105 and 198. In the cases where I made long-term records, the ones who were present early were, with a couple of specific exceptions, the same ones as were present late in the day, numbering typically 5 in the smallest school to 8 in the largest. In one high school, one of the teachers who stayed late was married to a middle school teacher and she was early for the same reason that he was late. They took one car and she dropped him off at the high school just in time, but then arrived early. He stayed late because she didn't get off until somewhat after he did, so he stayed late about the same amount as she arrived early. For a goodly period of time, I was in one school or another almost every day, between my boys' fights and the various committee meetings, and trying to teach teachers to do something beyond cute little calendars, etc, with their computers. I had the advantage that I had no social bond to any of the teachers, hence didn't have to let the fact that I liked one or another and perhaps disliked yet another influence my assessment of their behavior and performance. If you ask anyone who was present, I was equally harsh with everyone, pounding on the administrators to be more efficient at the same time that I urged the teachers not to be so self-serving in their attitudes and, above all, in their negotiations. I admired the teachers who taught me along the way, and certainly harbor no acrimony toward those who didn't. All in all, they were a tolerant and longsuffering lot as well as being sufficiently devoted to turn many rough-hewn youngsters into decent scholars. I remember many of my own teachers fondly and greatly appreciate what they did to make it possible for me to realize my current circumstances, Those were not the teachers of today, however. It's true they now have neither the respect nor the authority that was afforded their predecessors, but they haven't the determination and self-respect that was common to the teachers I remember. You needn't wander any further than the teachers' lounge to learn that they regard their peers and sometimes even themselves as relatively lazy and lacking in ambition. I didn't invent this view of our current crop, either, by the way, as it is reflected in the news almost daily. In general it appears the Republicans see them as may become if their course isn't altered, while the Democrats see them as the democrats wish they would become. I personally would support an effort to limit the length of time a teacher can teach to five years at a stretch. After this time is up, I'd require they go out into the world and do something else for five years, at the end of which I'd see they were paid as much as they got for doing whatever they were doing, so long as it wasn't teaching. After five years, do it again . . . Each year, I'd also dismiss the bottom 10% based on performance, but without prejudice, allowing them to take 5 years to do something else, and replace them with new graduates. After five years they could reapply with the assumption that they had learned something valuable in the interim. I've heard stories about fellows like your EE/Music double major. I've never seen one up close though. It's probably a California-ism. That place is like another planet. I like to visit, but I wouldn't like to live there. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Aaron Christopher Finney <af-list(a)wfi-inc.com> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Friday, March 10, 2000 4:28 PM Subject: Re: Re: languages (Teachers) boys, student he next off, $45K only get couldn't day, who what energized us teachers over year. in