14 Dec
2014
14 Dec
'14
2:55 p.m.
Back in 2007 Stan Barr posted a comment about a book that was pure computer
geek porn: "Core Memory" by Mark Richards & John Alderman. I thought it
would be a good stocking stuffer for myself from someone in the family. I
went looking on Amazon for it. The price is $172 for a new hardcover and
$78 for a used hardcover.
This is ridiculous. I thought it was only school books that were at totally
unreasonable prices.
Now, I can get the nook electronic version for $13.99 but this is a *coffee
table book*, something to be displayed. It's geek porn.
So then I went and looked at some other books that are niche. I enjoy
analog design and a Jim Williams book is always good. "The Art and Science
of Analog Design" which is about 15 years old is $50 in paperback.
I guess the printed page is dead. Gutenberg RIP.
14 Dec
14 Dec
3:54 p.m.
Used books are where it's at! I've always believed in the value of the
printed word and I've been steadily stocking my library all along :) Many
good deals can be obtained on Amazon used, or through AbeBooks. It is true
that art books can sometimes be hard to find and/or retain high values
(esp. if they are out of print). In the case you cite above, the book is
both niche and newly printed so the used market can't help there. Sometimes
you just have to bite the bullet if it's something you decide you really
truly want. I think the most I ever paid for a book (outside of something
required by a University course) was around $40 for an copy of Organick's
/The Multics System/ that was in "excellent" condition. I collect records
too, same dynamics. I consider a nicely done book or record as more a piece
of art... it can retain value as an object of art or as a collectible...
you don't necessarily spend $50 or $100 and it immediately depreciates to
zero.
I wouldn't say printing is dead but certainly it's moved upmarket. As well,
in a way, it's somewhat less ephemeral than bits and bytes. As you say, the
Nook version doesn't do much for your coffee table.
Best,
Sean
On Sun, Dec 14, 2014 at 5:55 PM, Charles Dickman <chd at chdickman.com> wrote:
Back in 2007 Stan Barr posted a comment about a book
that was pure computer
geek porn: "Core Memory" by Mark Richards & John Alderman. I thought it
would be a good stocking stuffer for myself from someone in the family. I
went looking on Amazon for it. The price is $172 for a new hardcover and
$78 for a used hardcover.
This is ridiculous. I thought it was only school books that were at totally
unreasonable prices.
Now, I can get the nook electronic version for $13.99 but this is a *coffee
table book*, something to be displayed. It's geek porn.
So then I went and looked at some other books that are niche. I enjoy
analog design and a Jim Williams book is always good. "The Art and Science
of Analog Design" which is about 15 years old is $50 in paperback.
I guess the printed page is dead. Gutenberg RIP.
4:18 p.m.
New subject: "Premium" ebooks, anyone? - was Re: OT: Physical Book Prices
On 14/12/14 6:54 PM, Sean Caron wrote:
Used books are where it's at! I've always
believed in the value of the
printed word and I've been steadily stocking my library all along :) Many
good deals can be obtained on Amazon used, or through AbeBooks. ...
I wouldn't say printing is dead but certainly it's moved upmarket. As well,
I am hoping for a "premium" tier of ebooks. The current versions are
typographically horrible (think 1987 DTP) and overpriced.
I would expect this tier would have:
* complete proofreading and debugging
* high quality fonts
* actual input from designers and typographers
* all of the above leading to a better reading experience
* high quality images (implying better UI, which puts pressure on the
device platform itself...)
If we are going to be screwed on price we should demand better quality :)
Much as a high end print book has. (And the low end stabilised to
"decent" layout and typography decades ago, thanks to farsighted
paperback publishers like Penguin who invested in design and typography.)
--Toby
in a way, it's somewhat less ephemeral than bits
and bytes. As you say, the
Nook version doesn't do much for your coffee table.
Best,
Sean
On Sun, Dec 14, 2014 at 5:55 PM, Charles Dickman <chd at chdickman.com> wrote:
...
I guess the printed page is dead. Gutenberg RIP.
15 Dec
15 Dec
4:11 a.m.
New subject: "Premium" ebooks, anyone? - was Re: OT: Physical Book Prices
On Sun, Dec 14, 2014 at 07:18:17PM -0500, Toby Thain wrote:
[...]
I am hoping for a "premium" tier of ebooks.
The current versions are
typographically horrible (think 1987 DTP) and overpriced.
I would expect this tier would have:
* complete proofreading and debugging
* high quality fonts
* actual input from designers and typographers
* all of the above leading to a better reading experience
* high quality images (implying better UI, which puts pressure on
the device platform itself...)
Are you objecting to ebook pricing in general, or just Kindle? Because the
Kindle platform is a joke. The hardware's crap, the UI is worse, and the books
I tried were badly OCRed from paperbacks and not proofread. Bizarrely, even
out-of-copyright works that have excellent versions on Project Gutenberg were
also shoddy. Some of Apple's free samples were similarly half-jobbed.
I note that ebooks I've bought through Humble Bundle and direct from O'Reilly
and a few other places are of reasonable-to-good quality. This suggests that
it's just the big names that are cutting corners because they are making money
hand-over-fist without needing to do it well.
However, you missed "good library management". Kindle, iBooks, etc seem to be
designed as if one's library is a half-dozen pulp novels which are thrown away
when done. My iTunes library contains 692 "books" -- some pulp novels, but
mostly technical documentation and papers -- and it's already unmanageable. In
particular, ebook readers don't let me have a half-dozen documents open and
have poor random-access so I can't easily skip around checking references.
If we are going to be screwed on price we should
demand better quality :)
Or just pirate them :)
Much as a high end print book has. (And the low end
stabilised to "decent"
layout and typography decades ago, thanks to farsighted paperback publishers
like Penguin who invested in design and typography.)
You still see this in self-published books where there wasn't an editor who
would quietly take the corrupted Word document and burn it, then re-typeset it
with sensible styles and no Comic Sans or Papyrus.
And then we come to self-published books on Kindle. *shudder*
1:58 p.m.
New subject: "Premium" ebooks, anyone? - was Re: OT: Physical Book Prices
For a partial solution to library management, there's Calibre (
calibre-ebook.com). It's free.
The poor random access is a pain, and usually why I don't use eBooks for
technical works (or anything where it's helpful to be able to flip around
in the text).
--Joseph Lenox
On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 6:11 AM, Peter Corlett <abuse at cabal.org.uk> wrote:
On Sun, Dec 14, 2014 at 07:18:17PM -0500, Toby Thain
wrote:
[...]
I am hoping for a "premium" tier of
ebooks. The current versions are
typographically horrible (think 1987 DTP) and overpriced.
I would expect this tier would have:
* complete proofreading and debugging
* high quality fonts
* actual input from designers and typographers
* all of the above leading to a better reading experience
* high quality images (implying better UI, which puts pressure on
the device platform itself...)
Are you objecting to ebook pricing in general, or just Kindle? Because the
Kindle platform is a joke. The hardware's crap, the UI is worse, and the
books
I tried were badly OCRed from paperbacks and not proofread. Bizarrely,
even
out-of-copyright works that have excellent versions on Project Gutenberg
were
also shoddy. Some of Apple's free samples were similarly half-jobbed.
I note that ebooks I've bought through Humble Bundle and direct from
O'Reilly
and a few other places are of reasonable-to-good quality. This suggests
that
it's just the big names that are cutting corners because they are making
money
hand-over-fist without needing to do it well.
However, you missed "good library management". Kindle, iBooks, etc seem
to be
designed as if one's library is a half-dozen pulp novels which are thrown
away
when done. My iTunes library contains 692 "books" -- some pulp novels, but
mostly technical documentation and papers -- and it's already
unmanageable. In
particular, ebook readers don't let me have a half-dozen documents open and
have poor random-access so I can't easily skip around checking references.
If we are going to be screwed on price we should
demand better quality :)
Or just pirate them :)
Much as a high end print book has. (And the low
end stabilised to
"decent"
layout and typography decades ago, thanks to
farsighted paperback
publishers
like Penguin who invested in design and
typography.)
You still see this in self-published books where there wasn't an editor who
would quietly take the corrupted Word document and burn it, then
re-typeset it
with sensible styles and no Comic Sans or Papyrus.
And then we come to self-published books on Kindle. *shudder*
16 Dec
16 Dec
6:30 a.m.
New subject: "Premium" ebooks, anyone? - was Re: OT: Physical Book Prices
On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 03:58:44PM -0600, Joseph Lenox wrote:
For a partial solution to library management,
there's Calibre (
calibre-ebook.com). It's free.
It's also a massive pile of crap that makes iTunes look good. The only good
use-case for it is pretty much to use it as an iTunes-alike for sideloading
data onto a Kindle.
The poor random access is a pain, and usually why I
don't use eBooks for
technical works (or anything where it's helpful to be able to flip around in
the text).
MacOS's Preview.app is actually a pretty goof PDF renderer, and will open
multiple files side-by-side, but not the same file twice. Apple-[ works in a
similar manner to a browser back button, so can be used to return to the
table-of-contents, index, or other cross-reference I've followed. Sadly, I
don't have anything that will display ePubs since my iPad took a coffee bath,
but fortunately I have limited content in that format.
2:39 p.m.
New subject: "Premium" ebooks, anyone? - was Re: OT: Physical Book Prices
On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 8:30 AM, Peter Corlett <abuse at cabal.org.uk> wrote:
ePubs are pretty easy to read as a format, given that they're just a ZIP
archive of HTML files. I don't have any Apple products myself, though. I do
know that B&N's Nook smartphone application will happily read most
ePub-format titles, as will Moon Reader (which reads pretty much anything,
but may be Android-only).
On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 03:58:44PM -0600, Joseph Lenox wrote:
I thought it worked just fine for the purpose of permitting a searchable
"library" of eBooks in multiple formats. The conversion tools are usable
and the program itself is pretty unobtrusive. The eBook viewer packaged
with it is nothing to write home about, but it works.
For a partial solution to library management,
there's Calibre (
calibre-ebook.com). It's free.
It's also a massive pile of crap that makes iTunes look good. The only
good
use-case for it is pretty much to use it as an iTunes-alike for sideloading
data onto a Kindle.
The poor
random access is a pain, and usually why I don't use eBooks for
technical works (or anything where it's helpful to be able to flip
around in
the text).
MacOS's Preview.app is actually a pretty goof PDF renderer, and will open
multiple files side-by-side, but not the same file twice. Apple-[ works in
a
similar manner to a browser back button, so can be used to return to the
table-of-contents, index, or other cross-reference I've followed. Sadly, I
don't have anything that will display ePubs since my iPad took a coffee
bath,
but fortunately I have limited content in that format.
4:51 p.m.
New subject: Physical Book Prices
-----Original Message-----
Back in 2007 Stan Barr posted a comment about a book that was pure
computer geek porn: "Core Memory" by Mark Richards & John Alderman. I
thought it would be a good stocking stuffer for myself from someone in
the family. I went looking on Amazon for it. The price is $172 for a
new hardcover and
$78 for a used hardcover.
Out of print books of limited quantity sold on Amazon tends to have ridiculous prices that
have no reflection of actual interest or demand for the book. I've seen this on lots
of books listed on Amazon and other places tend to check there to see what something is
"worth" first. Just takes one person to list it for a high price and everyone
else joins in. I bought that book when it first came out for $23.10 and Amazon later sold
me the ebook for $2.99 since I bought the print version previously. It is a nice book but
not really worth much more than that imo. I'll bet you most of those people aren't
selling any copies either.
David Williams
www.trailingedge.com
5:53 p.m.
New subject: Physical Book Prices
On 12/14/2014 04:51 PM, David Williams wrote:
Out of print books of limited quantity sold on Amazon
tends to have
ridiculous prices that have no reflection of actual interest or
demand for the book. I've seen this on lots of books listed on Amazon
and other places tend to check there to see what something is "worth"
first. Just takes one person to list it for a high price and everyone
else joins in. I bought that book when it first came out for $23.10
and Amazon later sold me the ebook for $2.99 since I bought the print
version previously. It is a nice book but not really worth much more
than that imo. I'll bet you most of those people aren't selling any
copies either.
As Al noted, used book prices via Amazon tend to have no relation to
supply and demand or even common sense. See this doozy:
http://www.michaeleisen.org/blog/?p=358
--Chuck
9:09 p.m.
New subject: Physical Book Prices
On 12/14/2014 5:53 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 12/14/2014 04:51 PM, David Williams wrote:
I use alibris.com, biblio.com and abebooks.com. Some sellers also cross
list onto amazon.
I don't know if the listed books on amazon have a way to upload via
other than sending a CSV list, but it is easy to see where things can go
sideways if you export your <xyz Bookselling app> database, and then
massage it and send the resulting 10 or 15k books to amazon.
The gaming of the prices is interesting, but I always shop across all 4
sites. They don't do it in sync apparently. The core book was 60 bucks
on one of the sites, and sounds good enough to snag. If it is a good
enough reference and not just pretty pictures, I'll get the ebook. I
have several books in the pile to scan, that I have not gotten to yet
and many I owe to Al, so an ebook in the online library I have would be
nice.
thanks
Jim
Out of print books of limited quantity sold on
Amazon tends to have
ridiculous prices that have no reflection of actual interest or
demand for the book. I've seen this on lots of books listed on Amazon
and other places tend to check there to see what something is "worth"
first. Just takes one person to list it for a high price and everyone
else joins in. I bought that book when it first came out for $23.10
and Amazon later sold me the ebook for $2.99 since I bought the print
version previously. It is a nice book but not really worth much more
than that imo. I'll bet you most of those people aren't selling any
copies either.
As Al noted, used book prices via Amazon tend to have no relation to
supply and demand or even common sense. See this doozy:
http://www.michaeleisen.org/blog/?p=358
--Chuck
15 Dec
15 Dec
8:10 a.m.
On Sun, 14 Dec 2014, Charles Dickman wrote:
Back in 2007 Stan Barr posted a comment about a book
that was pure computer
geek porn: "Core Memory" by Mark Richards & John Alderman. I thought it
would be a good stocking stuffer for myself from someone in the family. I
went looking on Amazon for it. The price is $172 for a new hardcover and
$78 for a used hardcover.
Charles, is it called "Core Memory Reporter Notebook"? If so, you can get
it for $2.21 here:
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=1400429227&searchurl=t…
That website is my go-to place when I'm looking for books that are WAY
over priced on Amazon. I recently bought a copy of the 6th edition of
Charles Petzold's Programming Windows from there for $17. :)
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
3:33 p.m.
Well I thought I had seen some silly prices, with folks wanting ?40 or ?50
for the hardback of James Small's "The Analogue Alternative" but this
beats
the lot...
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/141508987823
I wonder if some one has the point in the wrong place , ?18 perhaps...
Dave
G4UGM
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of geneb
Sent: 15 December 2014 16:10
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: OT: Physical Book Prices
On Sun, 14 Dec 2014, Charles Dickman wrote:
it
Back in 2007 Stan Barr posted a comment about a
book that was pure
computer geek porn: "Core Memory" by Mark Richards & John Alderman. I
thought it would be a good stocking stuffer for myself from someone in
the family. I went looking on Amazon for it. The price is $172 for a
new hardcover and
$78 for a used hardcover.
Charles, is it called "Core Memory Reporter Notebook"? If so, you can get
for $2.21 here:
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=1400429227&searchur
l=tn%3DCore+Memory%26an%3Dmark+richards%26sts%3Dt
That website is my go-to place when I'm looking for books that are WAY
over
priced on Amazon. I recently bought a copy of the 6th
edition of Charles
Petzold's Programming Windows from there for $17. :)
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value
database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
3659
days inactive
3661
days old
12 comments
11 participants
participants (11)
-
abuse＠cabal.org.uk -
aek＠bitsavers.org -
cclist＠sydex.com -
chd＠chdickman.com -
dave.g4ugm＠gmail.com -
geneb＠deltasoft.com -
jws＠jwsss.com -
lenox.joseph＠gmail.com -
nospam212-cctalk＠yahoo.com -
scaron＠umich.edu -
toby＠telegraphics.com.au