25 Jan
2004
25 Jan
'04
6:38 a.m.
I'm baaaaack!...
Apologies if this has been posted here already... I found this little
horror story on alt.sys.pdp8, and it made me cringe. If anyone has a
good estimate for this guy, it's probably best to reply to that
newsgroup.
I'm just going to go put those tank-traps and reinforced concrete into
the front yard now... :/
-O.-
-- forwarded message --
From: David M. Razler <REMOVECAPSdmrazler(a)rREMOVEazler.net>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8
Subject: CRISIS - need estimates on recent Straight-8
sales/parts/repairs for insurance claim
You're not going to believe this one
Message-ID: <iq8t005iqpiudnu93ih6m3vifg3prf3b7f(a)4ax.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 16:12:47 GMT
Fortunately no one was hurt.
But my friends Jeff and Candice Nisler were home from their honeymoon
for about a week when their home was struck by a flying car - which
took out every floor joist and sent cinder blocks crashing through his
Straight-8 destroying a glass front panel, powdering the covers and
modules, shooting the power supply into a steel post (which it wrapped
itself around (pix at nisler.org/crash))
[The PDP-8 - or what's left of it - is in the photos on
http://nisler.org/crash/down/ .]
Jeff doesn't want to give up on Kermit - his first computer, but wants
to force the auto owner's insurance company to repair/ restore the
box.
He is also looking to establish value based on recent purchases of
Straight-8s, especially tabletop machines with glass panel and mod
covers.
Please post to me, he's a bit busy at the moment restoring the rest of
his life.
<I am also looking for anyone who is qualified to give me an
assessment on a Raytheon CRT of the type used in the PDP-1 - it is
being donated to THCM to help in the PDP-1 rehab project, and I'd like
to take the full legal deduction.>
-- end of forwarded message --
25 Jan
25 Jan
2:20 a.m.
I'm baaaaack!...
Apologies if this has been posted here already... I found this
little horror story on alt.sys.pdp8, and it made me cringe. If
honeymoon for about a week when their home was struck by a flying
car - which took out every floor joist and sent cinder blocks
crashing through his Straight-8 destroying a glass front panel,
Yow. That's unreal... in our town we had exact same thing happen
twice in 2002 and 2003...
One girl is still learning to drive and hit the gas instead of brake,
launching her jeep into hard U turn hit the rental house that she
lives in!
Other one is sadder. The two couples (older), one of couple owns the
resteauent place and both couples were drunk and refused taxi, drove
off , missed the sweeping curves and went through several front yards
and smashed into house, instantly killed a senior sitting on their
lawn chair inside lower split level house and one person dead in the
car also.
That one about the flying car, I bet driver had good headstart to get
that assumed 100mph to fly that high and far? Smashed joists in the
house and launched the PDP-8 PSU across and hit lolly post. Amazing.
Was these guys drunk or was racing? I'm curious how this streets and
roads was laid out this way? It takes at least 3/4 to 1 mile for
car to get that speed. Fire dept condemned the house so quickly, I'm
curious what about recovering stuff after shoring up first from that
house or destroyed along with house when house being razed?
Cheers,
Wizard
8:26 a.m.
Unless he had an "official" independent appraisal by a
recognized insurance appraiser who described the PDP-8
piece in detail and establish a value for it by
physically looking/photographing/videotaping the
equipment, and had it reviewed and approved by an his
insurance agent, and applied for the rider and payed
the extra premium for the rider, he has a snowballs
chance in hell in collecting anything.
steve
--- "O. Sharp" <ohh(a)drizzle.com> wrote:
I'm baaaaack!...
Apologies if this has been posted here already... I
found this little
horror story on alt.sys.pdp8, and it made me cringe.
If anyone has a
good estimate for this guy, it's probably best to
reply to that
newsgroup.
I'm just going to go put those tank-traps and
reinforced concrete into
the front yard now... :/
-O.-
-- forwarded message --
From: David M. Razler
<REMOVECAPSdmrazler(a)rREMOVEazler.net>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8
Subject: CRISIS - need estimates on recent
Straight-8
sales/parts/repairs for insurance claim
You're not going to believe this one
Message-ID:
<iq8t005iqpiudnu93ih6m3vifg3prf3b7f(a)4ax.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 16:12:47 GMT
Fortunately no one was hurt.
But my friends Jeff and Candice Nisler were home
from their honeymoon
for about a week when their home was struck by a
flying car - which
took out every floor joist and sent cinder blocks
crashing through his
Straight-8 destroying a glass front panel, powdering
the covers and
modules, shooting the power supply into a steel post
(which it wrapped
itself around (pix at nisler.org/crash))
[The PDP-8 - or what's left of it - is in the
photos on
http://nisler.org/crash/down/ .]
Jeff doesn't want to give up on Kermit - his first
computer, but wants
to force the auto owner's insurance company to
repair/ restore the
box.
He is also looking to establish value based on
recent purchases of
Straight-8s, especially tabletop machines with glass
panel and mod
covers.
Please post to me, he's a bit busy at the moment
restoring the rest of
his life.
<I am also looking for anyone who is qualified to
give me an
assessment on a Raytheon CRT of the type used in the
PDP-1 - it is
being donated to THCM to help in the PDP-1 rehab
project, and I'd like
to take the full legal deduction.>
-- end of forwarded message --
__________________________________
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10:41 a.m.
On Jan 25, 2004, at 4:26 PM, steve wrote:
Unless he had an "official" independent
appraisal by a
recognized insurance appraiser who described the PDP-8
piece in detail and establish a value for it by
physically looking/photographing/videotaping the
equipment, and had it reviewed and approved by an his
insurance agent, and applied for the rider and payed
the extra premium for the rider, he has a snowballs
chance in hell in collecting anything.
Not necessarily true. I got T-boned in an intersection, totalling my
car, a few years ago, and the only thing the other driver's insurance
didn't fight over was the value of the laptop that got hurled off the
back seat. Not only was the thing (a Sharp 8700) not documented, but I
had built it from 2 dead units and I think I had $250 or so invested in
it. I told the adjuster what it was worth based on the cost to replace
it, and that I couldn't find the receipts (true) and they accepted my
appraisal without argument.
Her insurance gave me more for the laptop (which just needed to be
disassembled, the hard drive replaced, and everything reseated - I
still have it and it still runs) than they initially offered for the
completely wasted car.
Doc
11:35 a.m.
--- Doc Shipley <doc(a)mdrconsult.com> wrote:
On Jan 25, 2004, at 4:26 PM, steve wrote:
Completely different, you talking about a mass
produced item that's commonly available and commonly
owned. Insurance companies will usually honor these
claims without any documentation, like furniture, TV's
stoves etc on a house claim.
Its totally different with a straight PDP-8 which the
insurance company will view as an antique whos value
varies greatly depending on condition (like any other
antique), which is why they demand proper
documentation and an additional policy if the value is
in the thousands. Ever watch that antique show on PBS?
They always say when estimating antique prices "you
should have this insured for x dollars".
This stuff is not covered on your normal policy.
__________________________________
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Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/
Unless he had an "official" independent
appraisal
by a
recognized insurance appraiser who described the
PDP-8
piece in detail and establish a value for it by
physically looking/photographing/videotaping the
equipment, and had it reviewed and approved by an
his
insurance agent, and applied for the rider and
payed
the extra premium for the rider, he has a
snowballs
chance in hell in collecting anything.
Not necessarily true. I got T-boned in an
intersection, totalling my
car, a few years ago, and the only thing the other
driver's insurance
didn't fight over was the value of the laptop that
got hurled off the
back seat. Not only was the thing (a Sharp 8700)
not documented, but I
had built it from 2 dead units and I think I had
$250 or so invested in
it. I told the adjuster what it was worth based on
the cost to replace
it, and that I couldn't find the receipts (true) and
they accepted my
appraisal without argument.
11:45 a.m.
> This stuff is not covered on your normal policy.
(Regarding requiring a
specific rider).
1) As W Maddox pointed out, the first level insurance company is the drivers
car insurance so the rider issue does not really apply.
2) Even if there is not an explicit rider (always the best choice), there
are often umbrella clauses that will cover the cost.
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11:56 a.m.
On Jan 25, 2004, at 7:35 PM, steve wrote:
Its totally different with a straight PDP-8 which the
insurance company will view as an antique whos value
varies greatly depending on condition (like any other
antique), which is why they demand proper
documentation and an additional policy if the value is
in the thousands. Ever watch that antique show on PBS?
They always say when estimating antique prices "you
should have this insured for x dollars".
This stuff is not covered on your normal policy.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Which is the precise point of our contention. We're not talking
about a homeowners' or renters' policy at all, we're talking about
liability coverage. When it's robbery or "acts of God", and the
insurance company represents nobody but themselves, they are indeed
likely to dispute every item. At least in Texas, US, when there _is_ a
policyholder that's this clearly in the wrong, and the possibility of
intangible damages (pain & anguish) is very high, the insurance company
isn't likely to quibble over paying a few grand for unique equipment.
Worst case, the owner of the straight-8 might need to prove, by way
of witness affidavits, that it was functional prior to the assault.
With several commercially acknowledged sources of "collectable
computer" valuation now available, an acceptable dollar value won't be
that hard to assign.
Doc
4:05 p.m.
On Sun, 25 Jan 2004, Doc Shipley wrote:
Point taken.
This stuff is
not covered on your normal policy.
Which is the precise point of our contention. We're not talking
about a homeowners' or renters' policy at all, we're talking about
liability coverage. When it's robbery or "acts of God", and the
insurance company represents nobody but themselves, they are indeed
likely to dispute every item. At least in Texas, US, when there _is_ a
policyholder that's this clearly in the wrong, and the possibility of
intangible damages (pain & anguish) is very high, the insurance company
isn't likely to quibble over paying a few grand for unique equipment. Worst case, the owner of the straight-8 might need
to prove, by way
of witness affidavits, that it was functional prior to the assault.
It needn't be functional. Only that it was a complete unit in decent
shape, and its value on the market be proven through anecdotal evidence
or hard sales figures.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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4:30 p.m.
On Jan 26, 2004, at 12:05 AM, Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
On Sun, 25 Jan 2004, Doc Shipley wrote:
Point taken.
Oops. I should have read this post before I replied to the other
one. I think we're actually on the same page here.
I need to note that on my calendar. :)
Doc
Worst case, the owner of the straight-8 might
need to prove, by way
of witness affidavits, that it was functional prior to the assault.
It needn't be functional. Only that it was a complete unit in decent
shape, and its value on the market be proven through anecdotal evidence
or hard sales figures.
4:01 p.m.
On Sun, 25 Jan 2004, Doc Shipley wrote:
Not necessarily true. I got T-boned in an
intersection, totalling my
car, a few years ago, and the only thing the other driver's insurance
didn't fight over was the value of the laptop that got hurled off the
back seat. Not only was the thing (a Sharp 8700) not documented, but I
had built it from 2 dead units and I think I had $250 or so invested in
it. I told the adjuster what it was worth based on the cost to replace
it, and that I couldn't find the receipts (true) and they accepted my
appraisal without argument.
It's not a good comparison, because in this case a laptop is a known
commodity with a pretty fixed value, and that value can be understood in
the very least by an insurance adjuster who probably uses one. When my
house got broken in to, I claimed the replacement value of my 1998 Compaq
Presario 200Mhz laptop with no battery based on what a typical laptop of
today would cost and the insurance didn't bat an eye.
A PDP-8 is a historical item, and assigning a value is a wholly different
thing. It can't be valued like a laptop because compared to modern
hardware it has depreciated to the point of being worth whatever scrap
value it contains. If it is to be valued as a historic item, then first
you must prove that it is indeed historic and therefore has an equivalent
monetary value. Then you'd have to come up with a value based on hard
(or at least very convincing) figures from previous sales.
This will be a challenge but not impossible. There are enough indicators
to be able to value this at some level that the insurance company will
definitely want to wrangle over it (and they will, based on what I think a
PDP-8 is worth).
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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4:28 p.m.
On Jan 26, 2004, at 12:01 AM, Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
On Sun, 25 Jan 2004, Doc Shipley wrote:
GAH!
Ok, forget the laptop! I never meant to compare the ease of
appraisal of a semi-current PC to that of a PDP-8. I simply wanted to
illustrate that in an accident where the insurance company is the agent
of a tangible party who is demonstrably at fault, they almost *never*
argue about anything they can't look up in a blue-book. They know very
well that even if they "win" a dispute over the value of damaged
property, the fact that they disputed that "trivial" evaluation can
come back to bite them in the larger issues, which are the intangible
damages.
Not necessarily true. I got T-boned in an
intersection, totalling
my
car, a few years ago, and the only thing the other driver's insurance
didn't fight over was the value of the laptop that got hurled off the
back seat. Not only was the thing (a Sharp 8700) not documented, but
I
had built it from 2 dead units and I think I had $250 or so invested
in
it. I told the adjuster what it was worth based on the cost to
replace
it, and that I couldn't find the receipts (true) and they accepted my
appraisal without argument.
It's not a good comparison, because in this case a laptop is a known
commodity with a pretty fixed value, and that value can be understood
in
the very least by an insurance adjuster who probably uses one. When my
house got broken in to, I claimed the replacement value of my 1998
Compaq
Presario 200Mhz laptop with no battery based on what a typical laptop
of
today would cost and the insurance didn't bat an eye. A PDP-8 is a historical item, and assigning a value is
a wholly
different
thing. It can't be valued like a laptop because compared to modern
hardware it has depreciated to the point of being worth whatever scrap
value it contains. If it is to be valued as a historic item, then
first
you must prove that it is indeed historic and therefore has an
equivalent
monetary value. Then you'd have to come up with a value based on hard
(or at least very convincing) figures from previous sales.
This can only benefit the injured party in this case. PDP-8
components come up often enough on eBay, and sell, to demonstrate
salability and intrinsic value. Anybody with access to this list can
easily come up with reasonably recent examples of equipment sales, and
most will be documented to some extent. Anybody with access to your
print library can show at least a couple of fairly recent (and
generous) published valuations of like hardware.
This will be a challenge but not impossible. There
are enough
indicators
to be able to value this at some level that the insurance company will
definitely want to wrangle over it (and they will, based on what I
think a
PDP-8 is worth).
The big issue isn't going to be getting paid, but finding a
replacement at any price.
Doc
11:16 a.m.
If I understand correctly, he's looking to collect from the driver's
liability insurance, not his own homeowner's, so the rider doesn't
apply here. That still leaves the problem of proving the machine's
value. I saw the earlier posting on alt.sys.pdp8, and suggested to
David that he contact Sellam, whose professional involvement in appraisal
and brokerage might carry some weight with the insurance company.
If it came to that, I'd certainly threaten to sue for the damages and not
just roll over if they don't want to pay.
Have any straight-8s changed hands on Ebay? I know an 8/S went
for $3000. I've often claimed that my straight-8 is worth that much
to those who are inclinced to think of it as "old junk", but that is based
on not much more than the fact that I would personally pay that much
for the one I have if I didn't own it already and it were offered to me.
--Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "steve" <gkicomputers(a)yahoo.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2004 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: Estimated Price Of A "Classic" PDP-8?
Unless he had an "official" independent
appraisal by a
recognized insurance appraiser who described the PDP-8
piece in detail and establish a value for it by
physically looking/photographing/videotaping the
equipment, and had it reviewed and approved by an his
insurance agent, and applied for the rider and payed
the extra premium for the rider, he has a snowballs
chance in hell in collecting anything.
steve
11:44 a.m.
--- William Maddox <wmaddox(a)pacbell.net> wrote:
If I understand correctly, he's looking to
collect
from the driver's
liability insurance,
not his own homeowner's, so the
rider doesn't
apply here.
True, as long as the driver had insurance.
That still leaves the problem of
proving the machine's
value.
Right, that the basic problem, the condition of the
unit before the accident is unknown (as far as the
insurance company is concern, whether its the drivers
or the home owners insurance company). Photos will
help, but not always.
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2:58 p.m.
William Maddox wrote:
<snip>
Have any straight-8s changed hands on Ebay? I know an 8/S went
for $3000. I've often claimed that my straight-8 is worth that much
to those who are inclinced to think of it as "old junk", but that is based
on not much more than the fact that I would personally pay that much
for the one I have if I didn't own it already and it were offered to me.
--Bill
<snip>
$3000 for an "8/S"?!?!, you have to be kidding? Did it include a lot of
equipment?
Jim Davis, I just about shot soda pop through my nose.
5:43 p.m.
I believe it was just a bare CPU. There was some discussion of a few months
ago.
I caught the tail-end of the discussion just as I joined the list. I
believe it was actually
someone on the list who bought it!
The 8/S is actually very rare machine. Although they had a good run
(comparable
to the Straight-8), the performance was very poor, unlike the Straight 8
that held up rather
well in performance (though not price) against its successors. There
weren't too many of
them saved. From some pictures I saw, it appeared to be an excellent
specimen, too.
Certainly if your interest is "DEC collectibles" rather than a nice running
setup, this machine
would be a valuable one to have. Why do people value the Straight-8 so much
when the
8/E was the pinnacle of the family in terms of the kind of system it would
support?
Certainly, if you just want to run an 8, you'd be best advised to avoid the
Straight 8.
--Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Davis" <jimmydevice(a)hotmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2004 8:58 PM
Subject: Re: Estimated Price Of A "Classic" PDP-8?
William Maddox wrote:
><snip>
>
>Have any straight-8s changed hands on Ebay? I know an 8/S went
>for $3000. I've often claimed that my straight-8 is worth that much
>to those who are inclinced to think of it as "old junk", but that is
based
on not much
more than the fact that I would personally pay that much
for the one I have if I didn't own it already and it were offered to me.
--Bill
<snip>
$3000 for an "8/S"?!?!, you have to be kidding? Did it include a lot
of
equipment?
Jim Davis, I just about shot soda pop through my nose.
7:15 p.m.
William Maddox wrote:
I believe it was just a bare CPU. There was some
discussion of a few months
ago.
I caught the tail-end of the discussion just as I joined the list. I
believe it was actually
someone on the list who bought it!
The 8/S is actually very rare machine. Although they had a good run
(comparable
to the Straight-8), the performance was very poor, unlike the Straight 8
that held up rather
well in performance (though not price) against its successors. There
weren't too many of
them saved. From some pictures I saw, it appeared to be an excellent
specimen, too.
Certainly if your interest is "DEC collectibles" rather than a nice running
setup, this machine
would be a valuable one to have. Why do people value the Straight-8 so much
when the
8/E was the pinnacle of the family in terms of the kind of system it would
support?
Certainly, if you just want to run an 8, you'd be best advised to avoid the
Straight 8.
<snip>
I didn't know that the 8/s was that rare, I do know that it was the
economy model and had a horrid
serial architecture that resulted in it's so-called performance.
The straight-8, on the other hand, was a lovely machine, with it's long
toggles and incandecent lamps.
I suspect that my fingers still know how to toggle in the dectape
bootloader from memory.
Damn, Now I want one, and with the Tek 8002, dectapes and a swap drive,
just like the OMSI 8, Beep.
If I did get an 8, it would probably be a 8/E. the straight-8 is a pain
to debug, but with a drawer full of
transistors and discretes, always repairable. Maybe not that one in the
basement :-(
Jim Davis.
26 Jan
26 Jan
4:07 a.m.
On Sun, 25 Jan 2004, William Maddox wrote:
Why do people value the Straight-8 so much when the
8/E was the pinnacle
of the family in terms of the kind of system it would support?
Because it looks MUCH prettier (look at all those Flip Chip modules; it
looks just like a "Giant Brain"), and it was the first. Plus it's much
rarer than the 8/e.
Certainly, if you just want to run an 8, you'd be
best advised to avoid
the Straight 8.
Sure, but for cool factor, the straight-8 wins hands down.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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25 Jan
25 Jan
6:27 p.m.
On Sun, 25 Jan 2004, Jim Davis wrote:
I consider $3,000 a very good price for an 8/S. It's got a very
interesting architecture (serial), was considered the "cheap-o" PDP-8, not
many (relatively) were sold and thus it is probably as rare, if not more
so, as/than the "straight" 8.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
Have any
straight-8s changed hands on Ebay? I know an 8/S went
for $3000. I've often claimed that my straight-8 is worth that much
to those who are inclinced to think of it as "old junk", but that is based
on not much more than the fact that I would personally pay that much
for the one I have if I didn't own it already and it were offered to me.
$3000 for an "8/S"?!?!, you have to be kidding? Did it include a lot of
equipment?
7:28 p.m.
Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
On Sun, 25 Jan 2004, Jim Davis wrote:
I consider $3,000 a very good price for an 8/S. It's got a very
interesting architecture (serial), was considered the "cheap-o" PDP-8, not
many (relatively) were sold and thus it is probably as rare, if not more
so, as/than the "straight" 8.
I always thought that the straight-8 was the gold standard for
collectable 8's. I never considered
production quantities for the 8/S. I remember that it was derided by
most everybody in the
community as being a cheap little substitute for a real 8 when it came
out, My mistake!
Jim Davis. ;-)
Alchemy lives, DEC pdp8/S turns from shit to gold.
Have any
straight-8s changed hands on Ebay? I know an 8/S went
for $3000. I've often claimed that my straight-8 is worth that much
to those who are inclinced to think of it as "old junk", but that is based
on not much more than the fact that I would personally pay that much
for the one I have if I didn't own it already and it were offered to me.
$3000 for an "8/S"?!?!, you have to be kidding? Did it include a lot of
equipment?
26 Jan
26 Jan
5:51 a.m.
On Mon, 2004-01-26 at 01:28, Jim Davis wrote:
I always thought that the straight-8 was the gold
standard for
collectable 8's. I never considered
production quantities for the 8/S. I remember that it was derided by
most everybody in the
community as being a cheap little substitute for a real 8 when it came
out,
Well, they were 'horrid little things' then, but if you wanted raw
computing power today, you'd buy (or already have :-) a Pentium, right?
I love serial architectures, they're wonderfully awful and elegant both.
25 Jan
25 Jan
6:37 p.m.
On Sun, Jan 25, 2004 at 08:58:10PM -0800, Jim Davis wrote:
$3000 for an "8/S"?!?!, you have to be
kidding? Did it include a lot of
equipment?
When I asked Sellam about one that went for $1700 a couple of years ago,
he thought that was a fair price.
-ethan
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South Pole Station
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APO AP 96598 Wind 9 kts Grid 065 Barometer 688.8 mb (10297. ft)
Ethan.Dicks(a)amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html
8:37 p.m.
It seems that the going rate for a complete but "rough" PDP-8/E/F/M pulled
from industrial service with no cleaning or restoration
is around $1000 on
EBay, at least that's what I had to pay to win a couple of
auctions
recently. These are rather common machines compared to the earlier PDP-8
models. I saw a nicely cleaned up 8/E go for $1700 on Ebay. But in that
context, $3000 for a rare 8/S in good condition for operation and display
doesn't seem out of line. Annoying, because I'm not collecting for
investment and would rather the 8s go for the closer-to-scrap-value prices
so many other minis fetch. But I suppose growing values and marketability
will help get more machines into the hands of collectors and away from the
scrap dealers.
Ethan: *Two* straight 8s *and* DF-32s? My envy knows no bounds... ;)
.
--Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ethan Dicks" <dickset(a)amanda.spole.gov>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 12:37 AM
Subject: Re: Estimated Price Of A "Classic" PDP-8?
On Sun, Jan 25, 2004 at 08:58:10PM -0800, Jim Davis
wrote:
Z
$3000 for an "8/S"?!?!, you have to be
kidding? Did it include a lot of
equipment?
When I asked Sellam about one that went for $1700 a couple of years ago,
he thought that was a fair price.
-ethan
--
Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 26-Jan-2004 08:30 South Pole Station
PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -19.5 F (-28.6 C) Windchill -46.5 F
(-43.6 C)
APO AP 96598 Wind 9 kts Grid 065
Barometer 688.8 mb (10297.
ft)
Ethan.Dicks(a)amanda.spole.gov
http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html
9:10 p.m.
On Mon, Jan 26, 2004 at 02:37:14AM -0800, William Maddox wrote:
Ethan: *Two* straight 8s *and* DF-32s? My envy knows
no bounds... ;)
Bounds? Let me put it this way... PDP-8s are the focus of what I've been
collecting since 1982. I have yet to aquire a WT78, an -8/f or an -8/m.
That's all I'm missing (from the Straight-8s up to an SBC6120 w/front panel).
Also, one of the two Straight-8s is the same one depicted on the back of
"CPU Wars" by Charlie Andres (my boss sponsored the publication by buying
the back ad - there's a Straight-8 and an 11/04 in the picture).
I just wish I had some spare DF-32 platters. I'm sure mine are toast. I
got my first pair in high school and didn't know how thin the plating is.
I powered them up and down over 50 times fixing a problem. The -8/i that
I used for testing only had 4kW and 20 years ago, I had no access to
any software that talked to a disk besides OS/8. It's still a long-time
dream of mine to get a second core stack in it. I had an offer of a swap
with a list member, but he's never come to collect the CDC drive that I
picked up for him in exchange.
Mostly to show off my -8 collection (when I'm in North America ;-), I fire
up my first aquisition, a PDP-8/L to which I've added a PC8L. I load FOCAL
for them and show them Hammurabi. I had cow-orkers over for a barbeque once,
and had the distinct pleasure of loading a DECUS paper tape for the masses
that was documentably older than our boss.
-ethan
P.S. - I brought the SBC6120 with me to the Pole. It's sitting off to my
left. I plan to assemble my spare SBC6120 and two IOB6120s this winter.
--
Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 26-Jan-2004 10:51 Z
South Pole Station
PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -18.7 F (-28.2 C) Windchill -41.3 F (-40.7 C)
APO AP 96598 Wind 7.8 kts Grid 068 Barometer 688.1 mb (10321. ft)
Ethan.Dicks(a)amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html
26 Jan
26 Jan
6:27 a.m.
Ethan Dicks wrote:
P.S. - I brought the SBC6120 with me to the Pole.
It's sitting off to my
left. I plan to assemble my spare SBC6120 and two IOB6120s this winter.
You'll get more heat with a real 8. -_-
PS. A low power 2 watt tube audio amp for music makes a great heater for
cold hands , and two watts of clean music is good for the soul.
7:07 a.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ethan Dicks" <dickset(a)amanda.spole.gov>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 11:10 AM
Subject: Re: Estimated Price Of A "Classic" PDP-8?
" I had cow-orkers over for a barbeque once, "
Were they guests or the meal ? :>)
Geoff.
9:44 a.m.
New subject: OT: cow-orkers Was: Re: Estimated Price Of A "Classic" PDP-8?
On Mon, 2004-01-26 at 21:07, Geoffrey Thomas wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ethan Dicks" <dickset(a)amanda.spole.gov>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 11:10 AM
Subject: Re: Estimated Price Of A "Classic" PDP-8?
" I had cow-orkers over for a barbeque once, "
Were they guests or the meal ? :>)
where did that start? I'm sure I remember seeing the "cow orker" typo in
usenet postings about ten years ago, but maybe it has a history far
older than that...
cheers
Jules
11:12 a.m.
New subject: cow-orkers Was: Re: Estimated Price Of A "Classic" PDP-8?
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces(a)classiccmp.org
[mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jules Richardson
Sent: 26 January 2004 23:31
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: OT: cow-orkers Was: Re: Estimated Price Of A "Classic" PDP-8?
where did that start? I'm sure I remember seeing the "cow orker" typo in
usenet postings about ten years ago, but maybe it has a history far
older than that...
I'm sure it's been in common parlance for longer than this, but my other
online home at www.b3ta.com (currently offline for upgrades) coined the term
'orking' for a picture of an animal that had its nose too close to the
camera lens, and from that the 'new' term of a cow-orker was born, but from
sniffing around USENET archives it seems it's been around for longer than
the last couple of years :)
cheers
--
Adrian/Witchy
www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - possibly the UK's biggest online computer museum
www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - ex-monthly gothic shenanigans :o(
25 Jan
25 Jan
9:10 p.m.
<snip>
Ethan: *Two* straight 8s *and* DF-32s? My envy knows
no bounds... ;)
.
<snip>
YOU BASTARD! I have PDP envy!
But I still have the symbolic.
This voltage/current wallwart thread is the most bizzare thing i've seen
in ccom in years.
Jim Davis.
BTW: How's the weather? It's 20 F. and snow here, Not even on a warm
summer day?
11:04 p.m.
On Mon, Jan 26, 2004 at 03:10:35AM -0800, Jim Davis wrote:
<snip>
That's a nice one.
Ethan: *Two* straight 8s *and* DF-32s? My envy
knows no bounds... ;)
YOU BASTARD! I have PDP envy!
But I still have the symbolic. This voltage/current wallwart thread is the most
bizzare thing i've seen
in ccom in years.
Indeed.
Jim Davis.
BTW: How's the weather? It's 20 F. and snow here, Not even on a warm
summer day?
It's been great! It's about -20F, light wind, sunny skies (24 hours a day).
We are sitting on 2 miles of snow, but we haven't had more than a few
millimeters all summer.
I'm off to McMurdo for a week of "R&R" (so they call it). Sigh... back
down to sea level... Classically speaking, I just grabbed a copy of
xelf - a multi-1802 emulator that was announced on the cosmacelf Yahoo
group this week. Looks pretty nice.
-ethan
--
Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 26-Jan-2004 13:00 Z
South Pole Station
PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -19.8 F (-28.8 C) Windchill -38.7 F (-39.3 C)
APO AP 96598 Wind 6.8 kts Grid 073 Barometer 687.5 mb (10345. ft)
Ethan.Dicks(a)amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html
26 Jan
26 Jan
12:04 a.m.
Ethan Dicks wrote:
On Mon, Jan 26, 2004 at 03:10:35AM -0800, Jim Davis
wrote:
Two miles!, and how many hundreds of thousands of years did you guys not
plow the
road to allow it to get that high? ;-)
R&R, Whats wrong with McMurdo? Net connection slower? Penguins not as cute?
1802 Emulator, Is it just a hex pad / led display toy? The 1802 sure is
a interesting architecture,
Not a classic cpu, almost a forth engine, but closer to the hardware
with the register file and
it's pc and acc selection regs. I think writing a compiler for that
thing would either make my brain
explode or become a 1802 convert. Thanks for the 1802 lead, I collect,
hack and play with emulators.
Cheers,
Jim Davis.
<snip>
Jim Davis.
BTW: How's the weather? It's 20 F. and snow here, Not even on a warm
summer day?
It's been great! It's about -20F, light wind, sunny skies (24 hours a day).
We are sitting on 2 miles of snow, but we haven't had more than a few
millimeters all summer.
I'm off to McMurdo for a week of "R&R" (so they call it). Sigh... back
down to sea level... Classically speaking, I just grabbed a copy of
xelf - a multi-1802 emulator that was announced on the cosmacelf Yahoo
group this week. Looks pretty nice.
-ethan
1:32 a.m.
On Mon, Jan 26, 2004 at 06:04:06AM -0800, Jim Davis wrote:
Two miles!, and how many hundreds of thousands of
years did you guys not
plow the road to allow it to get that high? ;-)
That number is still up for debate. :-)
R&R, Whats wrong with McMurdo? Net connection slower? Penguins not as cute?
Well... their connection is slower, but it's 24x7. They have a T1-speed
sat connection that's permanently allocated for internet and phone. We
do not - our connections (when they are up) are 100% internet + VoIP.
They also have five times as many people hitting the 'net with lots more
high-bandwidth e-mail (pictures of penguins, etc).
OTOH, they _have_ penguins and we do not (too far from the ocean).
1802 Emulator, Is it just a hex pad / led display toy?
The 1802 sure is
a interesting architecture,
It's an emulator for the classic Elf, the Elf-II and the Super-Elf, all
rolled into one. It's at...
http://www.lv-riley.com/~riley/elf/
Not a classic cpu, almost a forth engine, but closer
to the hardware
with the register file and it's pc and acc selection regs.
Sure it's a classic CPU - The P-E articles are from 1976. It's not
a PDP of any kind, to be sure, but it's a classic in its own right.
I think writing a compiler for that thing would either
make my brain
explode or become a 1802 convert.
Personally, I've never written anything for the 1802 that didn't fit on
either the P-E Elf (256 bytes) or the COSMAC VIP (4K). I've always
done my compiling by hand (as does the lead engineer for the AWS weather
boxes down here - he enters stuff into the EPROM programmer in HEX).
Thanks for the 1802 lead, I collect, hack and play
with emulators.
NP. I collect, hack and play with 1802s! (I'm building an P-E Elf
down here, too... I have all the goodies).
-ethan
--
Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 26-Jan-2004 15:20 Z
South Pole Station
PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -19 F (-28.4 C) Windchill -40.8 F (-40.4 C)
APO AP 96598 Wind 7.6 kts Grid 072 Barometer 687 mb (10365 ft)
Ethan.Dicks(a)amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html
4:27 a.m.
New subject: Kinda OT: Bandwidth on the island? (was Re: Estimated Price Of A "Classic" PDP-8?)
On Mon, 26 Jan 2004, Ethan Dicks wrote:
I'm off to McMurdo for a week of
"R&R" (so they call it). Sigh... back
down to sea level... Classically speaking, I just grabbed a copy of
xelf - a multi-1802 emulator that was announced on the cosmacelf Yahoo
group this week. Looks pretty nice.
Say, what sort of bandwidth (internet-wise) do you guys get down there
now?
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
1 Feb
1 Feb
9:16 a.m.
New subject: Kinda OT: Bandwidth on the island? (was Re: Estimated Price Of A "Classic" PDP-8?)
On Mon, Jan 26, 2004 at 10:27:04AM -0800, Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
Say, what sort of bandwidth (internet-wise) do you
guys get down there
now?
McMurdo has had a 1.5Mbps 24/7 line since Jan, 1995. It's permanently
provisioned for both internet and traditional phones. IIRC, about 768Kbps
is the size of the internet pipe. That's for ~1200 users. I think they
get about 20 mail messages a minute plus surfing and ftp.
At Pole, we use a network of obsolete satellites with a variety of speeds,
but we don't have a traditional phone setup; we have VoIP. Our pipes run
from 19.2K or so to 1.0Mbps and 1.5Mbps. It's 100%
internet for ~240 users
in the summer and < 100 users in the winter.
So... things are better here at Pole, but we're only up about half the day.
-ethan
--
Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 01-Feb-2004 23:10 Z
South Pole Station
PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -28.4 F (-33.6 C) Windchill -60.1 F (-51.2 C)
APO AP 96598 Wind 9.69 kts Grid 050 Barometer 691.7 mb (10187. ft)
Ethan.Dicks(a)amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html
26 Jan
26 Jan
4:13 a.m.
On Mon, 26 Jan 2004, Ethan Dicks wrote:
On Sun, Jan 25, 2004 at 08:58:10PM -0800, Jim Davis
wrote:
That was a couple of years ago ;)
Over the years, I've noticed (and as would be expected or at least hoped)
that collectors, as we are, have refined our tastes and are valuing higher
the computers that deserve to be valued higher, also as a function of time
passed. So earlier minis like the PDP-8 (of all models, but especially
the earlier or rarer ones) are steadily increasing in value. $3,000 for a
very nice 8/s (as was the one that sold on eBay a short while back) is a
reasonable price.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
$3000 for an "8/S"?!?!, you have to be
kidding? Did it include a lot of
equipment?
When I asked Sellam about one that went for $1700 a couple of years ago,
he thought that was a fair price. 
5:18 a.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Vintage Computer Festival" <vcf(a)siconic.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 1:13 PM
Subject: Re: Estimated Price Of A "Classic" PDP-8?
That was a couple of years ago ;)
Over the years, I've noticed (and as would be expected or at least hoped)
that collectors, as we are, have refined our tastes and are valuing higher
the computers that deserve to be valued higher, also as a function of time
passed. So earlier minis like the PDP-8 (of all models, but especially
the earlier or rarer ones) are steadily increasing in value. $3,000 for a
very nice 8/s (as was the one that sold on eBay a short while back) is a
reasonable price.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
So basically instead of going by supply and demand your saying that because
an item means more to you today it should be worth a few times more then
what it sold for a few years ago?
I don't understand that logic. By saying something is more deserving and
having more refined tastes over time just means an item is worth more to you
for reasons other then market conditions.
An apple I is worth what it is because of its rarity, significance in the
industry, and because there are allot of loyal apple users who are
collectors. If apple died in 1990 and its loyal user base switched to Linux
the value of the apple I would drop quite a bit because demand would also
drop. Demand for anything collectible changes with tastes, availability,
financial standing of the collectors interested in the item, and condition.
What an item deserves to have as a value just isn't factored in.
On Mon, 26 Jan 2004, Ethan Dicks wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 25, 2004 at 08:58:10PM -0800, Jim Davis wrote:
> > $3000 for an "8/S"?!?!, you have to be kidding? Did it include a lot
of
equipment?
When I asked Sellam about one that went for $1700 a couple of years ago,
he thought that was a fair price.
6:52 a.m.
On Mon, 26 Jan 2004, Teo Zenios wrote:
So basically instead of going by supply and demand
your saying that because
an item means more to you today it should be worth a few times more then
what it sold for a few years ago?
Yes.
As time goes on, statistics show that less of an item becomes available to
the market. This could result from a car flying into a house at high
speed and destroying an item, or the insatiable hunger of a scrapper's
smelter.
Also, historical value has to be taken into account when valuing
something. As time goes on, our perspectives may shift and an item that
was not as important before may take on new relevance.
I don't understand that logic. By saying something
is more deserving and
having more refined tastes over time just means an item is worth more to you
for reasons other then market conditions.
True, but if I make a compelling case for it and other people agree, then
I've just altered the market. Your idea of the "market" might be too
simplistic.
An apple I is worth what it is because of its rarity,
significance in the
industry, and because there are allot of loyal apple users who are
collectors. If apple died in 1990 and its loyal user base switched to Linux
the value of the apple I would drop quite a bit because demand would also
drop. Demand for anything collectible changes with tastes, availability,
financial standing of the collectors interested in the item, and condition.
See? You just validated my point.
What an item deserves to have as a value just
isn't factored in.
Yes it is.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
25 Jan
25 Jan
7:33 p.m.
Jim Davis asks:
$3000 for an "8/S"?!?!, you have to be
kidding? Did it include a lot of
equipment?
If that's the auction I remember from about six months ago, that 8/S was
an anomaly - it didn't have any peripherals attached, but it was well
kept up, and it was listed as having... <drum roll> ...serial number 0.
The listing suggested it might have been a prototype 8/s. I don't know
whether there's any truth in that, but since at least two people were
willing to bid the price up over $3,000 it _may_ be possible.
Amazing fact? Urban legend? You be the judge! :)
-O.-
26 Jan
26 Jan
4:17 a.m.
On Mon, 26 Jan 2004, O. Sharp wrote:
That's right, and low serial numbers always add to the value. Why? Well,
there could be many reasons (symbolic, technical, etc.) The Computer
History Museum will not take common machines unless they are low serial
number (i.e. less than 10).
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
$3000 for an
"8/S"?!?!, you have to be kidding? Did it include a lot of
equipment?
If that's the auction I remember from about six months ago, that 8/S was
an anomaly - it didn't have any peripherals attached, but it was well
kept up, and it was listed as having... <drum roll> ...serial number 0.
25 Jan
25 Jan
4:02 p.m.
On Sun, 25 Jan 2004, William Maddox wrote:
If I understand correctly, he's looking to collect
from the driver's
liability insurance, not his own homeowner's, so the rider doesn't
apply here. That still leaves the problem of proving the machine's
value. I saw the earlier posting on alt.sys.pdp8, and suggested to
David that he contact Sellam, whose professional involvement in appraisal
and brokerage might carry some weight with the insurance company.
If it came to that, I'd certainly threaten to sue for the damages and not
just roll over if they don't want to pay.
Ah, thanks! :)
Have any straight-8s changed hands on Ebay? I know an
8/S went
for $3000. I've often claimed that my straight-8 is worth that much
to those who are inclinced to think of it as "old junk", but that is based
on not much more than the fact that I would personally pay that much
for the one I have if I didn't own it already and it were offered to me.
Try at least 3.5 times that as a starting value and you're getting close
;)
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
6:44 p.m.
On Sun, Jan 25, 2004 at 10:02:08PM -0800, Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
Try at least 3.5 times that as a starting value and
you're getting close
;)
I have two with two DF-32 platters each...
As I said, a $25,000 rider is not enough.
-ethan
--
Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 26-Jan-2004 08:40 Z
South Pole Station
PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -19.4 F (-28.6 C) Windchill -47.5 F (-44.2 C)
APO AP 96598 Wind 9.30 kts Grid 065 Barometer 688.8 mb (10297. ft)
Ethan.Dicks(a)amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html
7:59 p.m.
Ethan Dicks wrote:
On Sun, Jan 25, 2004 at 10:02:08PM -0800, Vintage
Computer Festival wrote:
Anybody have an estimate on the worth of a Symbolics 1200 XL with a
color frame buffer and mono tube?
My unemployment runs out in a week, and although I have an interview
with general software in
Seattle, I'm going to need some money.
Jim Davis.
Try at least 3.5 times that as a starting value
and you're getting close
;)
I have two with two DF-32 platters each...
As I said, a $25,000 rider is not enough.
-ethan
26 Jan
26 Jan
4:19 a.m.
On Mon, 26 Jan 2004, Jim Davis wrote:
Anybody have an estimate on the worth of a Symbolics
1200 XL with a
color frame buffer and mono tube? My unemployment runs out in a week,
and although I have an interview with general software in Seattle, I'm
going to need some money.
Probably only enough for a month's expenses (as long as you don't live in
California that is ;)
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
12:51 p.m.
On Jan 26, 2004, at 1:59 AM, Jim Davis wrote:
Anybody have an estimate on the worth of a Symbolics
1200 XL with a
color frame buffer and mono tube?
My unemployment runs out in a week, and although I have an interview
with general software in
Seattle, I'm going to need some money.
Jim--
I'm in Seattle and would like to offer you $250 for it. Feel free to
shop it around, it won't hurt my feelings if you find a better offer or
decide not to sell at that price.
ok
bear
4:15 a.m.
On Mon, 26 Jan 2004, Ethan Dicks wrote:
On Sun, Jan 25, 2004 at 10:02:08PM -0800, Vintage
Computer Festival wrote:
Either way I would definitely document them if I were you. Photos,
inventory list, supporting evidence, etc. I'll be happy to provide you
with some of the latter if you need it ;)
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
Try at least 3.5 times that as a starting value
and you're getting close
;)
I have two with two DF-32 platters each...
As I said, a $25,000 rider is not enough.
25 Jan
25 Jan
6:14 p.m.
On Sun, Jan 25, 2004 at 02:26:21PM -0800, steve wrote:
Unless he had an "official" independent
appraisal by a
recognized insurance appraiser who described the PDP-8
piece in detail and establish a value for it by
physically looking/photographing/videotaping the
equipment, and had it reviewed and approved by an his
insurance agent, and applied for the rider and payed
the extra premium for the rider, he has a snowballs
chance in hell in collecting anything.
From his own homeowners' insurance, that's
correct. They have maximum
values placed on items that aren't specifically
appraised for any
collectible item. That's why I got the maximum computer rider that
my insurer provides - $25,000. It's not enough, but it's all they will
give me.
In this case, however, he's trying to collect from the _driver's_
company (if I read the posting correctly). That will end up being
his lawyer and/or insurance company fighting with the driver's company
as to the value of the item.
He still doesn't have a great chance of fair compensation, but his chances
are better than if a tree fell on his PDP-8 or a hurricane blew it across
the yard.
-ethan
--
Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 26-Jan-2004 08:10 Z
South Pole Station
PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -19.6 F (-28.7 C) Windchill -43.8 F (-42.1 C)
APO AP 96598 Wind 8.19 kts Grid 068 Barometer 688.9 mb (10293. ft)
Ethan.Dicks(a)amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html
7411
days inactive
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days old
44 comments
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participants (16)
-
bear＠typewritten.org -
bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca -
dickset＠amanda.spole.gov -
doc＠mdrconsult.com -
dvcorbin＠optonline.net -
geoffreythomas＠onetel.net.uk -
gkicomputers＠yahoo.com -
jimmydevice＠hotmail.com -
jpero＠sympatico.ca -
julesrichardsonuk＠yahoo.co.uk -
ohh＠drizzle.com -
teoz＠neo.rr.com -
tomj＠wps.com -
vcf＠siconic.com -
witchy＠binarydinosaurs.co.uk -
wmaddox＠pacbell.net