31 Dec
2006
31 Dec
'06
4:31 a.m.
This is my attempt at an "art" x-ray.
This image includes the entire range of densities. If I were to penetrate
the motor I would blow through the plastic.
This is a high resolution x-ray. Zoom into the front label and see if you
can read the embossed name plates... What COLOR is this actual drive? The
answer is in there! ; )
http://www.stockly.com/images2/061231-Disk_II_Drive-120kv6ma15msDG35SFD.jpg
This shot was taken with the drive elevated at an angle by foam so that you
would get a 3d feeling and not a flat picture.
Let me know if its cool. I may x-ray an entire computer next... : )
Grant
31 Dec
31 Dec
4:39 a.m.
Heh, it's interesting to see a Apple II drive like this, it's been ages
since I've worked on one! And it's black! By the time this reaches the list
I bet everyone else has already leapt on that one...
m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Grant Stockly" <grant at stockly.com>
To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, January 01, 2007 1:31 AM
Subject: Apple Disk ][ X-Ray
This is my attempt at an "art" x-ray.
This image includes the entire range of densities. If I were to penetrate
the motor I would blow through the plastic.
This is a high resolution x-ray. Zoom into the front label and see if you
can read the embossed name plates... What COLOR is this actual drive?
The
answer is in there! ; )
http://www.stockly.com/images2/061231-Disk_II_Drive-120kv6ma15msDG35SFD.jpg
This shot was taken with the drive elevated at an angle by foam so that
you
would get a 3d feeling and not a flat picture.
Let me know if its cool. I may x-ray an entire computer next... : )
Grant
3:13 p.m.
Awesome! I wish I had access to equipment like this...I'd start x-raying
everything! A 128K Mac might be real interesting to see like this.
-Chandra
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Grant Stockly
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 7:31 AM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Apple Disk ][ X-Ray
This is my attempt at an "art" x-ray.
This image includes the entire range of densities. If I were to penetrate
the motor I would blow through the plastic.
This is a high resolution x-ray. Zoom into the front label and see if you
can read the embossed name plates... What COLOR is this actual drive? The
answer is in there! ; )
http://www.stockly.com/images2/061231-Disk_II_Drive-120kv6ma15msDG35SFD.jpg
This shot was taken with the drive elevated at an angle by foam so that you
would get a 3d feeling and not a flat picture.
Let me know if its cool. I may x-ray an entire computer next... : )
Grant
1 Jan
1 Jan
9:01 a.m.
On Dec 31, 2006, at 7:31 AM, Grant Stockly wrote:
This is my attempt at an "art" x-ray.
This image includes the entire range of densities. If I were to
penetrate the motor I would blow through the plastic.
This is a high resolution x-ray. Zoom into the front label and see
if you can read the embossed name plates... What COLOR is this
actual drive? The answer is in there! ; )
http://www.stockly.com/images2/061231-
Disk_II_Drive-120kv6ma15msDG35SFD.jpg
This shot was taken with the drive elevated at an angle by foam so
that you would get a 3d feeling and not a flat picture.
Let me know if its cool. I may x-ray an entire computer next... : )
It's extremely cool. What's with you and the x-rays lately? Did
you score an x-ray machine somewhere recently? (I ask out of
jealousy...I'd love a small x-ray setup [and the knowledge to use it]
for soldering BGA components).
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Cape Coral, FL
10:42 a.m.
On Monday 01 January 2007 12:01, Dave McGuire wrote:
On Dec 31, 2006, at 7:31 AM, Grant Stockly wrote:
He said in an earlier message, that it was at his place of employment. :)
He's aparently not as crazy as I am to have some x-ray gear at home
(then again, I've never used it partly because I don't know enough about
dosages to determine what's safe, and how much to use to expose film
properly, etc).
Pat
--
Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
This is my attempt at an "art" x-ray.
This image includes the entire range of densities. If I were to
penetrate the motor I would blow through the plastic.
This is a high resolution x-ray. Zoom into the front label and see
if you can read the embossed name plates... What COLOR is this
actual drive? The answer is in there! ; )
http://www.stockly.com/images2/061231-
Disk_II_Drive-120kv6ma15msDG35SFD.jpg
This shot was taken with the drive elevated at an angle by foam so
that you would get a 3d feeling and not a flat picture.
Let me know if its cool. I may x-ray an entire computer next... :
)
It's extremely cool. What's with you and the x-rays lately? Did
you score an x-ray machine somewhere recently? (I ask out of
jealousy...I'd love a small x-ray setup [and the knowledge to use it]
for soldering BGA components).
2 Jan
2 Jan
9:05 a.m.
On Jan 1, 2007, at 1:42 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote:
Oh, duh. I missed that somehow. :-/
It's
extremely cool. What's with you and the x-rays lately? Did
you score an x-ray machine somewhere recently? (I ask out of
jealousy...I'd love a small x-ray setup [and the knowledge to use it]
for soldering BGA components).
He said in an earlier message, that it was at his place of
employment. :) He's aparently not as crazy as I am to have some
x-ray gear at home
(then again, I've never used it partly because I don't know enough
about
dosages to determine what's safe, and how much to use to expose film
properly, etc).
What type of equipment do you have, if you don't mind my asking?
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Cape Coral, FL
3 Jan
3 Jan
12:20 a.m.
>> It's extremely cool. What's with
you and the x-rays lately? Did
After I scanned the IIe motherboard and people liked it, I did a few
more. When you have access to this equipement its easy to not appreciate
it. ; )
>>you score an x-ray machine somewhere recently?
(I ask out of
>>jealousy...I'd love a small x-ray setup [and the knowledge to use it]
>>for soldering BGA components).
X-rays really won't help too much for soldering BGA devices. With x-rays
you can't tell the difference between 2 pieces of .25" steel stacked on
each other or 1 piece of .5" steel when x-raying through the thickness.
He said in an
earlier message, that it was at his place of
employment. :)
Oh, duh. I missed that somehow. :-/ He's
aparently not as crazy as I am to have some x-ray gear at home
(then again, I've never used it partly because I don't know enough
about
dosages to determine what's safe, and how much to use to expose film
properly, etc).
What type of equipment do you have, if you don't mind my asking? 
4:02 a.m.
Grant Stockly wrote:
A stop-motion X-rayed animation of a drive actually "running" would be rather
cool (I presume there's no hope of the electronics actually operating whilst
being x-rayed? [1])
[1] I am not a physicist...
cheers
Jules
>> It's extremely cool. What's
with you and the x-rays lately? Did
After I scanned the IIe motherboard and people liked it, I did a few
more. When you have access to this equipement its easy to not
appreciate it. ; )
12:18 p.m.
At 03:02 AM 1/3/2007, you wrote:
Grant Stockly wrote:
A stop-motion X-rayed animation of a drive actually "running" would be
rather cool (I presume there's no hope of the electronics actually
operating whilst being x-rayed? [1])
That's a good idea. I'll have to find an Apple II disk that makes the disk
drive seek back and forth a lot.
Electronics don't care if there are x-rays present when they are on any
more than when they are off. They die at the same rate. : )
Grant
>> It's extremely cool. What's
with you and the x-rays lately? Did
After I scanned the IIe motherboard and people
liked it, I did a few
more. When you have access to this equipement its easy to not appreciate
it. ; ) 
1:17 p.m.
"Joachim Thiemann" wrote:
Actually, I've been wondering: What is the effect of x-rays on EPROMS?
I was always told it could flip bits. But that was older UV erasable
types. I'd would be interested to know if that is really true...
(I'm having a flash back to wrapping eproms in tin-foil when flying
prototype game carts and coin-op games out to the west coast. probably
just paranoid, but we did that)
now days I just wear the tin-foil as a hat :-)
-brad
1:21 p.m.
Brad Parker wrote:
"Joachim Thiemann" wrote:
A friend of mine brought a Spectrum back from Saudi Arabia when they
were still very very new. It didn't survive the trip. I often wondered
if airport X-rays had toasted the already-fragile ULA.
Gordon
Actually, I've been wondering: What is the
effect of x-rays on EPROMS?
I was always told it could flip bits. But that was older UV erasable
types. I'd would be interested to know if that is really true...
(I'm having a flash back to wrapping eproms in tin-foil when flying
prototype game carts and coin-op games out to the west coast. probably
just paranoid, but we did that)
now days I just wear the tin-foil as a hat :-)
-brad
3 p.m.
At 12:17 PM 1/3/2007, you wrote:
"Joachim Thiemann" wrote:
Most PROM memory can be erased with x-rays, although with FLASH memory it
actually damages the memory's ability to be reprogrammed before it erases
them... (So the erasure risk isn't important)
I've never tried, but heard of people erasing OTP microcontrollers with x-rays.
The 1702 was originally designed to be erased with x-rays and then annealed
in an oven. The temperature required to recondition the EPROM was a risk
to the device. So they put a window in it. That's the birth of the window
on EPROMs (they didn't have windows in the beginning).
One of our customers did some contract work for an electronics company
once. They erased a few thousand EPROMs with their x-ray source. It was
much faster and cheaper than UV I guess. I don't know any of the details
though...
Actually, I've been wondering: What is the effect of x-rays on EPROMS?
I was always told it could flip bits. But that was older UV erasable
types. I'd would be interested to know if that is really true... (I'm having a flash back to wrapping eproms in
tin-foil when flying
prototype game carts and coin-op games out to the west coast. probably
just paranoid, but we did that)
That wouldn't do very much at all. The x-ray machine at the airport goes
right through tin foil. 1/8 of lead would have worked wonders. I once
checked a 30lb slab of lead as luggage. The screener wasn't expecting a
cardboard sleeve the SIZE of a national geographic to be so heavy.
: D
8:26 p.m.
From: Grant Stockly <grant at stockly.com>
---snip---
One of our customers did some contract work for an electronics company
once. They erased a few thousand EPROMs with their x-ray source. It was
much faster and cheaper than UV I guess. I don't know any of the details
though...
Hi
One might use this method on the OTP PROMs. Most of these
were just EPROM's without windows.
Dwight
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4:39 p.m.
At 02:20 PM 1/3/2007, you wrote:
Joachim Thiemann wrote:
Actually, you aren't too far off if you consider out of this world tests...
A linear accelerator emitting electrons, not x-rays, can put a charge in
plastic and cause it to glow.
Here is some text from a neat test at a lab... (they have a lot of fun) I
have all the pictures from these tests if you guys are interested. These
guys also make diamonds turn blue. : )
The answer(s): Using electrons with much higher ionizing/charging ability
than x-rays, (the "ozone" (O3) was very apparent in the shelter by the
way!) the damage ("tree/branch" appearance) is done by the electrons
leaping out/suddenly discharging through the Plexiglas. As a lightning
strike parts the air, it will also part Plexiglas in an obviously similar
fashion.
What we are doing is pushing a bunch of electrons (electron 'charge', as if
it were a capacitor) into the Plexiglas from one side. Unlike X-Rays which
easily pass through >3" of carbon steel at this energy level, these
electrons only penetrate 4mm for every 1 MeV (Million Electron Volts) of
energy. The penetration in this 'experiment' was about 1/2" or 12 mm.
We were running 60 mA (Milliamperes) each pulse at 50 PPS (Pulses per
second) with a 4.5 microsecond pulse width. That's about 12 Microamperes
average. We ran for 1.5 minutes max for a charge of 1 Millicoulomb.(A unit
of electrical charge equal to the amount of charge transferred by a current
of 1 ampere in 1 second) At 3 MeV (Million Electron Volts) (the system I
was using here) that's 3.24kj or Kilojoules. (Joules: A unit of
electrical energy equal to the work done when a current of one ampere
passes through a resistance of one ohm for one second
With the Plexiglas thus full of electrons, ("charged" as would be a
capacitor just before it conducts) we pick it up and put it on a board, and
whack the edge with a pointed object. After first making sure that the
point is grounded. It can also be done using a drill press, with a
sharpened nail in the chuck.
This causes a stress crack in the Plexiglas, which encourages some of the
electrons to exit. This tears a track in the Plexiglas, which permits more
of the electrons to come out. The electrons coming out tear/rip a path in
the Plexiglas just as lightning tears a path in the air leaving behind a
witness path, such as you see in the pictures. And like lightning the
process is accompanied by a loud bang and a flash. The Plexiglas continues
to 'sparkle' with bright blue 'sprits' running along the small branches
for
several minutes. It is truly a beautiful appearance.....at least in MY
opinion!
This plus the final pattern (which is obviously different every time) is
great at entertaining the multitude.
On 1/3/07, Grant Stockly <grant at
stockly.com> wrote:
Actually, I've been wondering: What is the effect of x-rays on EPROMS?
Umm they
glow in the dark afterwords. :) 
5:48 p.m.
On Wed, 3 Jan 2007, Grant Stockly wrote:
This causes a stress crack in the Plexiglas, which
encourages some of the
electrons to exit. This tears a track in the Plexiglas, which permits more
of the electrons to come out. The electrons coming out tear/rip a path in
the Plexiglas just as lightning tears a path in the air leaving behind a
witness path, such as you see in the pictures. And like lightning the
process is accompanied by a loud bang and a flash. The Plexiglas continues
to 'sparkle' with bright blue 'sprits' running along the small branches
for
several minutes. It is truly a beautiful appearance.....at least in MY
opinion!
This plus the final pattern (which is obviously different every time) is
great at entertaining the multitude.
Here's something along those lines that yields a permanent piece of art:
(main page www.teslamania.com)
http://205.243.100.155/frames/interesting.html.
Basic process:
Irradiate a block of plexiglass with an electron beam from a particle
accelerator to build up a high static charge. Then carefully touch the
block with a grounded metal spike to cause a discharge, leaving feathery
branches of "frozen lightning" behind.
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
4 Jan
4 Jan
10:29 a.m.
On Jan 3, 2007, at 3:28 PM, Joachim Thiemann wrote:
I believe very early EPROMs (1702s) listed x-ray exposure as a means
of erasure.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Cape Coral, FL
Electronics
don't care if there are x-rays present when they are on
any
more than when they are off. They die at the same rate. : )
Actually, I've been wondering: What is the effect of x-rays on EPROMS?
3 Jan
3 Jan
8:38 p.m.
From: Grant Stockly <grant at stockly.com>
---snip---
Electronics don't care if there are x-rays present when they are on any
more than when they are off. They die at the same rate. : )
Grant
Hi
That is not totally true. Semiconductors do care. When x-rays go through
a simiconductor, it creates electron/hole pairs. With no bias on these, they
usually just recombine. With bias, these become current flow. To add to
insult, this current can be amplified by parasitic transistors as exist in
CMOS
devices. This can lead to a high current run away.
Snap, the magic smoke leaks out and that is the end.
Now, the question is, does an airport x-ray machine create enough of this
kind of current to cause damage to a biased device?
Dwight
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9:25 p.m.
That is not totally true. Semiconductors do care. When
x-rays go through
a simiconductor, it creates electron/hole pairs. With no bias on these, they
usually just recombine. With bias, these become current flow. To add to
insult, this current can be amplified by parasitic transistors as exist in
CMOS
devices. This can lead to a high current run away.
Snap, the magic smoke leaks out and that is the end.
Now, the question is, does an airport x-ray machine create enough of this
kind of current to cause damage to a biased device?
Dwight
Hmmm...Do you know what percentage recombine? This could explain reports
of 50k rad on a device turned off and 11k rad on a device turned on.
Airport machines are puny. 120-160kv and a few ma. I think you would need
a TON of x-rays to actually damage a device. CCD cameras show bright dot
flashes where x-rays hit the active area, but its nothing that "hurts" them
quickly. It looks like snow, or the star travel type screen savers.
The only electronic device ever to fail from x-rays in my experience has
been those basic stamps. AVRs have held up to limited exposure to a linear
accelerator and the basic stamp died after hardly anything.
10:13 p.m.
From: Grant Stockly <grant at stockly.com>
---snip---
The only electronic device ever to fail from x-rays in my experience has
been those basic stamps. AVRs have held up to limited exposure to a linear
accelerator and the basic stamp died after hardly anything.
I guess that a basic stamp wouldn't be a good device to use
in a space station. I wonder what fails?
Dwight
_________________________________________________________________
Communicate instantly! Use your Hotmail address to sign into Windows Live
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10:16 p.m.
dwight elvey wrote:
> The only electronic device ever to fail from
x-rays in my experience
> has been those basic stamps. AVRs have held up to limited exposure to
> a linear accelerator and the basic stamp died after hardly anything.
I guess that a basic stamp wouldn't be a good device to use
in a space station. I wonder what fails?
EEPROM style programing for the PROM section?
Dwight
10:50 p.m.
I guess that a basic stamp wouldn't be a good
device to use
in a space station. I wonder what fails?
Dwight
Well, from what I remember there was a PIC microcontroller and a small
EEPROM chip. I don't think it could have been the PIC because those hold
right next to the AVR I mentioned.
It could have been something as simple as the voltage regulator. It would
power up and only rarely work. Other times it would just spasm its
outputs. This wasn't an isolated case. : ( I ended up doing my first AVR
machine language program because of it. : )
21 Jun
21 Jun
2:10 p.m.
New subject: OT ? X-rays and BGAs was: Apple Disk ][ X-Ray
----- Original Message -----
From: "Grant Stockly" <grant at stockly.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 1:20 AM
Subject: Re: Apple Disk ][ X-Ray
Grant wrote;
X-rays really won't help too much for soldering
BGA devices. With x-rays
you can't tell the difference between 2 pieces of .25" steel stacked on
each other or 1 piece of .5" steel when x-raying through the thickness.
I beg to differ. We ( Raytheon / Hughes ) exclusively use X-ray and Boundary
Scan to make certain BGAs are mounted / soldered correctly and electrically
connected. We would be blind and dead in the water without these.
Best regards, Steven
4 Jan
4 Jan
10:11 p.m.
On Tuesday 02 January 2007 12:05, Dave McGuire wrote:
On Jan 1, 2007, at 1:42 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote:
Sorry, replying slipped my mind.
I've got some old lab X-ray gear (well, just the transformer tubes, and
tube housings to direct the beam) from uni surplus. At one point, I had
of pair of 240V in, 60kV peak output transformers, which I wired
out-of-phase to make a 120kV spark between them (they're big, and
oil-filled). They produced a pretty nifty effect, until one of the
transformers developed an open winding... (I had to use one of the
lower-power input taps on the transformers, to use them both on a single
30A 240V circuit.) I guess that they're designed for pulsed use, and
the x-ray tubes draw less power than a straight arc does. :)
I've also got two (I think... might be one) rackmount 60kVDC power
supplies to drive x-ray tubes, in x-ray scanning equipemnt (shove a
sample in, and it scans the sample with x-rays, somehow). Due to Purdue
policies, X-ray equipment is normally "disabled" (wires cut at least,
now they usually pull out boards), so it's harder to get intact
equipment. But, they generally leave the power supply intact, and the
x-ray tube is still usable if you solder on some extensions to the wires
they cut off.
I got a bigger x-ray transformer box (the tube was shattered from
moving), but even with the oil out, it was way too heavy to move around,
so I ended giving that back.
They also had some Ion Implater units, which I was hoping to snag one of,
and had planned to snag one, with a 200 - 500kVDC output (Can't remember
for sure anymore) and a beefy 3phase input with some nice controls on it
for voltage/current adjust. They looked like they were practically new
Varian units, donated by Intel, but they weren't what the Donatee
expected to get, so they got sent out.
At about 3000lbs for each, I had no way to move them, and they ended up
getting scrapped instead. :/
The next time I see a >200kVDC power supply, I'm gonna have to try to get
it. Imagine the size of the jacob's ladder you could make with that. ;)
Pat
--
Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
He's aparently not as crazy as I am to have
some x-ray gear at home
(then again, I've never used it partly because I don't know enough
about
dosages to determine what's safe, and how much to use to expose film
properly, etc).
What type of equipment do you have, if you don't mind my asking?
6393
days inactive
6565
days old
24 comments
13 participants
participants (13)
-
bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca -
brad＠heeltoe.com -
cannings＠earthlink.net -
cbajpai＠comcast.net -
dgriffi＠cs.csubak.edu -
dkelvey＠hotmail.com -
gordon＠gjcp.net -
grant＠stockly.com -
joachim.thiemann＠gmail.com -
julesrichardsonuk＠yahoo.co.uk -
mcguire＠neurotica.com -
mike＠ambientdesign.com -
pat＠computer-refuge.org