4 Jun
2009
4 Jun
'09
4:20 a.m.
If I remember correctly, someone was looking for a TI
733 manual.
That was me, a few weeks ago.
I found one today while sorting some boxes.
Which manual did you find?
I am looking for a service/repair manual. I already have
"Model 733 ASR/KSR Operating Instructions, 959227-9701, Rev C"
revised October 1974.
This is the large TI terminal, not the portable one.
Mine is the large one with casette drives, pictured here:
http://www.sdu.se/computer-automation-museum/pub/gallery/ti--silent-733-asr…
Thanks in advance
/Lars Hamr?n
4 Jun
4 Jun
7:31 a.m.
I also have a 733 without cassette drives (is that a different model #)?
It would be nice to have access to the service manual for it. It's been in
an attic for about 10 yrs but I plan to bring it back to life real soon.
Oh-- it has a 300 baud acoustic coupler on the side too :-)
It's this one,
http://www.digibarn.com/collections/systems/ti-tymshare-100/DSC02096.JPG
mine is not Tymshare branded however.
Chris
On Thursday (06/04/2009 at 10:20AM +0200), Lars Hamren wrote:
--
Chris Elmquist
If I remember
correctly, someone was looking for a TI 733 manual.
That was me, a few weeks ago.
I found one today while sorting some boxes.
Which manual did you find?
I am looking for a service/repair manual. I already have
"Model 733 ASR/KSR Operating Instructions, 959227-9701, Rev C"
revised October 1974.
This is the large TI terminal, not the portable
one.
Mine is the large one with casette drives, pictured here:
http://www.sdu.se/computer-automation-museum/pub/gallery/ti--silent-733-asr…
Thanks in advance
/Lars Hamr?n 
5:15 p.m.
New subject: 8" Floppies
Hello, all,
I've got a batch of 30 brand new 8" Floppies that I can't figure out.
They are hard-sectored disks.
The weird part is that the index hole placement is strange on these
disks.
They don't work on my Altair 8" drives since the index sensor doesn't
line up with the hole.
On all of the other hard-sectored 8" floppies that I have, the index
hole is punched such that it is nearly vertical with relationship to the
spindle hole, meaning that if you draw a centerline through the spindle
hole up toward the index hole, the center of the index hole will fall
close to this line. On these particular group of floppies, the index
hole is offset to the right of the centerline, perhaps four or five
degrees so.
Anyone know what these might be for?
Rick Bensene
The Old Calculator Museum
http://oldcalculatormuseum.com
5 Jun
5 Jun
3:16 a.m.
New subject: 8" Floppies
Rick Bensene wrote:
I've got a batch of 30 brand new 8" Floppies
that I can't figure out.
They are hard-sectored disks.
The weird part is that the index hole placement is strange on these
disks.
They don't work on my Altair 8" drives since the index sensor doesn't
line up with the hole.
They're double-sided disks. Not too uncommon. If you want to see some
really strange 8" floppy disks, I have a box of Memorex disks that are
hard-sectored and have the sector/index hole near the outer edge of the
disk, rather than near the rim.
IBM used an outer-edge index hole on the very first floppy drive, the
Minnow (23FD), which was a read-only drive used for microcode storage.
Minnow only stored about 80KB and spun at 90 RPM (vs. 360 for "modern"
8-inch floppy drives). The 23FD drive and media were not offered as
separate products.
Memorex introduced the first commercially-sold 8" read/write floppy
drive, the 650, and later a 651 with faster seek times. These were
hard-sectored and had the sector/index hole near the outer edge, and
spun at 375 RPM. I don't know whether the diskettes used by the Memorex
65x drives were interchangeable with Minnow disks, but my box of Memorex
disks were presumably for the Memorex 65x drive. I've heard that the
65x drive was used in some early word processing systems.
Eric
9:32 a.m.
New subject: 8" Floppies
----------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 00:16:59 -0700
From: eric at brouhaha.com
To:
Subject: Re: 8" Floppies
Rick Bensene wrote:
Hi
If he wants to use them, just get a hand hole punch.
Slip a piece of thin cardboard between the envelop
and the disk then slide the punch in and put the hole
where you'd like.
The cardboard will protect the disk while punching.
I admit to doing it myself.
Dwight
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync.
http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_BR_life_in_synch_062009
I've got a batch of 30 brand new 8"
Floppies that I can't figure out.
They are hard-sectored disks.
The weird part is that the index hole placement is strange on these
disks.
They don't work on my Altair 8" drives since the index sensor doesn't
line up with the hole.
They're double-sided disks. Not too uncommon. If you want to see some
really strange 8" floppy disks, I have a box of Memorex disks that are
hard-sectored and have the sector/index hole near the outer edge of the
disk, rather than near the rim.
IBM used an outer-edge index hole on the very first floppy drive, the
Minnow (23FD), which was a read-only drive used for microcode storage.
Minnow only stored about 80KB and spun at 90 RPM (vs. 360 for "modern"
8-inch floppy drives). The 23FD drive and media were not offered as
separate products.
Memorex introduced the first commercially-sold 8" read/write floppy
drive, the 650, and later a 651 with faster seek times. These were
hard-sectored and had the sector/index hole near the outer edge, and
spun at 375 RPM. I don't know whether the diskettes used by the Memorex
65x drives were interchangeable with Minnow disks, but my box of Memorex
disks were presumably for the Memorex 65x drive. I've heard that the
65x drive was used in some early word processing systems.
Eric
9:50 a.m.
New subject: 8" Floppies
Eric Smith wrote:
Memorex introduced the first commercially-sold 8"
read/write floppy
drive, the 650, and later a 651 with faster seek times. These were
hard-sectored and had the sector/index hole near the outer edge, and
spun at 375 RPM. I don't know whether the diskettes used by the Memorex
65x drives were interchangeable with Minnow disks, but my box of Memorex
disks were presumably for the Memorex 65x drive. I've heard that the
65x drive was used in some early word processing systems.
They were also sold by AED in the 2500 floppy disc subsystem.
Burroughs also used this style floppy. There is a notch in the outer case
on those.
4:16 p.m.
New subject: 8" Floppies
On Jun 5, 2009, at 3:16 AM, Eric Smith wrote:
They're double-sided disks. Not too uncommon. If
you want to see
some really strange 8" floppy disks, I have a box of Memorex disks
that are hard-sectored and have the sector/index hole near the
outer edge of the disk, rather than near the rim.
IBM used an outer-edge index hole on the very first floppy drive,
the Minnow (23FD), which was a read-only drive used for microcode
storage. Minnow only stored about 80KB and spun at 90 RPM (vs. 360
for "modern" 8-inch floppy drives). The 23FD drive and media were
not offered as separate products.
I'm pretty sure I have a large number of these floppies.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
9:55 p.m.
New subject: 8" Floppies
IBM used an outer-edge index hole on the very first
floppy drive, the Minnow
(23FD), which was a read-only drive used for microcode storage. ?Minnow only
stored about 80KB and spun at 90 RPM (vs. 360 for "modern" 8-inch floppy
drives). ?The 23FD drive and media were not offered as separate products.
I could use some extra 23FD media, and REALLY use a drive that can write a 23FD.
--
Will
10:23 p.m.
New subject: 8" Floppies
William Donzelli wrote:
I could use some extra 23FD media, and REALLY use a
drive that can write a 23FD.
I imagine that one could contrive to wire the head connector of a 23FD
to a write amplifier of one's own devising, and use a 23FD to write.
Not trivial, but perhaps not too terribly difficult. Since there's no
erase head, it would be necessary to bulk-erase the disk first.
Are the technical specs for 23FD in any surviving IBM maintenance
documents? It might be helpful to know the track 0 radius, track pitch,
media coercivity, etc.
Beyond the obvious difference in the location of the index/sector hole,
is here much other difference in the jacket of 23FD disks as compared to
the later (standard) 8" disks?
Back before I had any blank Twiggy disks for a Lisa, I took 5.25"
high-density ("1.2MB") disks and hacked up the jackets to make crude but
usable Twiggy disks. Could you make 23FD media that way?
Eric
10:34 p.m.
New subject: 8" Floppies
Are the technical specs for 23FD in any surviving IBM
maintenance documents?
?It might be helpful to know the track 0 radius, track pitch, media
coercivity, etc.
I think the 3830 docs have them. Some of the specs are actually on a
sticker on the mechanism itself.
--
Will
4:55 p.m.
I also have a 733 without cassette drives (is that a different model #)?
It would be nice to have access to the service manual for it. It's been i=
n
an attic for about 10 yrs but I plan to bring it back to life real soon.
I'll certainly take a look at the service manual if it ends up on
Bitsavers or somewhere similar.
I haev 2 of these terminals... At a radio rally nearly 20 years ago I
bought a KSR version (no tape drives). The seller had 4 old printers, he
started off trying to sell them for a farly high price (\pounds 10.00
each or something), by the end of the take he too \pounds 5.00 for all 4.
The one I particularly wanted was the Teletpye KSR43, the others with the
TI 733 and a couple of Cnetronics printes (brand, not (just) interface)
with a strange carriage feed mechanism. At the same rally, from another
seller I bought the dual tape drive unit. I didn't realise it would go on
the TI terminal until I got it home, saw the TI logo all over the tape
drive parts, and relaised the 'feet' would fit on top of the terminal if
I remvoed a couple of cover plates. What I didn't have was the cable to
link them. Oh, the tape unt is missing the outer cover but otherwise
seems to be complete/
Anyway, about 10 years later a friend of mine had the ASR model, complete
with covers and cable. I asked if I could 'buzz out' the cable and he
gave me the complete device.
So I have one complete ASR model, a KSR one, and the working bits of a
tape unit.
Oh-- it has a 300 baud acoustic coupler on the side too :-)
I don't have that.
-tony
5:53 p.m.
On Friday (06/05/2009 at 09:55PM +0100), Tony Duell wrote:
>
> I also have a 733 without cassette drives (is that a different model #)?
> It would be nice to have access to the service manual for it. It's been i=
> n
> an attic for about 10 yrs but I plan to bring it back to life real soon.
My mistake-- I just fetched the unit from the attic and it is a model
725 not a 733. Sorry for the confusion.
Although it was described as a "portable data terminal" and it is built
into a large suitcase. One really has to question the definition of
portable :-) Man that thing is heavy.
And to answer Lar's question about the picture, mine does indeed look
exactly like the one here,
http://www.digibarn.com/collections/systems/ti-tymshare-100/DSC02096.JPG
except that there are no Tymshare logos on it and the metal plate just
below the acoustic coupler does not extend all the way to the front.
On mine it is only about 2" wide with the carrier detect light directly
centered on that plate. Mine also unfortunately, has more of yellow green
color now instead of the greenish-grey it was originally. Time takes
it toll.
It's most definitely a model 725. Serial 725-11237. Part 954783-1.
I'll certainly take a look at the service manual
if it ends up on
Bitsavers or somewhere similar.
So, I will need to track down a model 725 service manual. The user's
manual is still inside the top cover so that is good.
I haev 2 of these terminals... At a radio rally nearly
20 years ago I
bought a KSR version (no tape drives). The seller had 4 old printers, he
started off trying to sell them for a farly high price (\pounds 10.00
each or something), by the end of the take he too \pounds 5.00 for all 4.
The one I particularly wanted was the Teletpye KSR43, the others with the
TI 733 and a couple of Cnetronics printes (brand, not (just) interface)
with a strange carriage feed mechanism. At the same rally, from another
seller I bought the dual tape drive unit. I didn't realise it would go on
the TI terminal until I got it home, saw the TI logo all over the tape
drive parts, and relaised the 'feet' would fit on top of the terminal if
I remvoed a couple of cover plates. What I didn't have was the cable to
link them. Oh, the tape unt is missing the outer cover but otherwise
seems to be complete/
Anyway, about 10 years later a friend of mine had the ASR model, complete
with covers and cable. I asked if I could 'buzz out' the cable and he
gave me the complete device.
Now that is a _good_ friend.
So I have one complete ASR model, a KSR one, and the
working bits of a
tape unit.
Mine's still there. With the giant "CARRIER DETECT" light-- not LED of
course-- right below it.
The unit actually powers up and it still types!! Even the paper wasn't
totally black from 10 yrs of heat in the attic. Amazing.
However, the paper does not feed correctly. On inspection, I've already
found that the grease in the little solonoid that lifts the head from the
paper when it advances has turned to something more sticky than honey.
I'm in the process of addressing that.
I also see that the stepper motor that actually turns the platen (or equiv
of) is not making a full increment each time. Sometimes it advances but
other times it de-advances. So, something it messed up in the stepper
circuit or the grease in that stepper motor has turned to honey too.
This is a really cool machine though. I grew up with this thing hooked
to my first computer (an MEK6800D1 eval board) in 1975. I went through
thousands of rolls of thermal paper as I typed in machine code to MIKBUG's
'*' prompt one line at time :-)
There's no microprocessor in the thing-- not even a UART. It's all done
with 7400 TTL and electronically, it's extremely fixable.
It's pretty funny but as soon as I took the lid off the Silent 700,
the smell of that plastic brought back the same impressions of coolness
and excitement I had as a kid.
Everything else is on the back burner now-- gotta get this baby
printing right! :-)
Chris
--
Chris Elmquist
Oh-- it has a 300 baud acoustic coupler on the side too :-)
I don't have that.
6 Jun
6 Jun
1:28 p.m.
However, the paper does not feed correctly. On
inspection, I've already
found that the grease in the little solonoid that lifts the head from the
paper when it advances has turned to something more sticky than honey.
I'm in the process of addressing that.
This is a well-known problem on all sorts of devices. Someitmes the
grease will soften with common solvents (propan-2-ol, etc). There's a
green grease used in some camera lans mounts that goes rock hard with age
and nothing wil shift it short of scraping it out....
I also see that the stepper motor that actually turns
the platen (or equiv
of) is not making a full increment each time. Sometimes it advances but
other times it de-advances. So, something it messed up in the stepper
circuit or the grease in that stepper motor has turned to honey too.
Maybe you've lost the drive to one of hte stepper phases. That can make
them step in thwe wrong direction sometimes.
This is a really cool machine though. I grew up with this thing hooked
to my first computer (an MEK6800D1 eval board) in 1975. I went through
thousands of rolls of thermal paper as I typed in machine code to MIKBUG's
'*' prompt one line at time :-)
There's no microprocessor in the thing-- not even a UART. It's all done
with 7400 TTL and electronically, it's extremely fixable.
The 733 is like that too, although there's probably at least one ROM (the
character generator). From what I rmember there's a cardcage of PCBs
between the 2 tape drives in the ASR add-on (behind the swtich/LED panel
in the middle -- in fact I think that's mounted on the frontmost PCB in
the cage). Anyway, about the most complicated chip on those boards is a
little bipolar RAM. No microprocessor.
It's pretty funny but as soon as I took the lid off the Silent 700,
the smell of that plastic brought back the same impressions of coolness
and excitement I had as a kid.
Everything else is on the back burner now-- gotta get this baby
printing right! :-)
I'm almost convinced to dig mine out and have a go with it... Too many
projects, not enough bench space...
-tony
8:39 p.m.
On Saturday (06/06/2009 at 06:28PM +0100), Tony Duell wrote:
yes... I had to clean it out of the raceway of the solonoid as well as
off the plunger. It was really like glue. WD-40 seemed to do a nice
job cutting it actually.
That was absolutely it. It was a fun afternoon tracing out the circuit
and finding a bad TIP31B (NPN, 3A, 40W) on the driver board. Of course
I didn't have a TIP31B in stock so I stuck a TIP29B in there temporarily
and we're back online. A pile of TIP31B have been ordered for spares.
I remember having to change one of them once before in the distant past
and the evidence of that (solder rosin) was still on the board so I've
been here before... can't understand why I would have forgotten after
30 yrs of not using this thing :-)
Great stuff. Cool to see all those TTL parts and not a one of them is
LS or HCT or anything close. 74XX was it in 1973.
oh it's fun! Great to see the thing printing crisp and clear and feeding
the paper as it should.
Note that I have really good luck with modern thermal FAX paper in these
units. Around here it is readily available at office supply stores on
98 ft rolls. They have a 1/2" dia core which needs a piece of dowel
to support it in the 725 (and probably in the 733 too) and it is a much
smaller roll than the 725 can take... but it works. I also use it in
my 745 and there the roll is a perfect fit.
http://www.officemax.com/catalog/sku.jsp?productId=ARS27286&history=vu0…
6 rolls for $17.
Chris
--
Chris Elmquist
However, the
paper does not feed correctly. On inspection, I've already
found that the grease in the little solonoid that lifts the head from the
paper when it advances has turned to something more sticky than honey.
I'm in the process of addressing that.
This is a well-known problem on all sorts of devices. Someitmes the
grease will soften with common solvents (propan-2-ol, etc). There's a
green grease used in some camera lans mounts that goes rock hard with age
and nothing wil shift it short of scraping it out.... I also see
that the stepper motor that actually turns the platen (or equiv
of) is not making a full increment each time. Sometimes it advances but
other times it de-advances. So, something it messed up in the stepper
circuit or the grease in that stepper motor has turned to honey too.
Maybe you've lost the drive to one of hte stepper phases. That can make
them step in thwe wrong direction sometimes. There's no
microprocessor in the thing-- not even a UART. It's all done
with 7400 TTL and electronically, it's extremely fixable.
The 733 is like that too, although there's probably at least one ROM (the
character generator). From what I rmember there's a cardcage of PCBs
between the 2 tape drives in the ASR add-on (behind the swtich/LED panel
in the middle -- in fact I think that's mounted on the frontmost PCB in
the cage). Anyway, about the most complicated chip on those boards is a
little bipolar RAM. No microprocessor. Everything
else is on the back burner now-- gotta get this baby
printing right! :-)
I'm almost convinced to dig mine out and have a go with it... Too many
projects, not enough bench space...
7 Jun
7 Jun
1:34 p.m.
This is a
well-known problem on all sorts of devices. Someitmes the
grease will soften with common solvents (propan-2-ol, etc). There's a
green grease used in some camera lans mounts that goes rock hard with age
and nothing wil shift it short of scraping it out....
yes... I had to clean it out of the raceway of the solonoid as well as
off the plunger. It was really like glue. WD-40 seemed to do a nice
job cutting it actually. I also
see that the stepper motor that actually turns the platen (or equiv
of) is not making a full increment each time. Sometimes it advances but
other times it de-advances. So, something it messed up in the stepper
circuit or the grease in that stepper motor has turned to honey too.
Maybe you've lost the drive to one of hte stepper phases. That can make
them step in thwe wrong direction sometimes. Great stuff. Cool to see all those TTL parts and not
a one of them is
LS or HCT or anything close. 74XX was it in 1973.
Well, at that time there was also 74Lxx (lower power, slower), 74Hxx
(higher power, faster) and 74Sxx (fast!). I've come across all those
families in classic HP hardware of that period.
Note that I have really good luck with modern thermal FAX paper in these
units. Around here it is readily available at office supply stores on
I am not suprised. I use it in my HP thermal printers with no problems.
My 9866A (full-width thermal printhead, it's a sort of line printer...)
just works....
I repaired an HP2761G (moving head thermal printer). I went to a
stationers locally, and all they had was 210mm wide paper, the 2761
having a 216mm wide chassis. I found if I positioned the roll just right,
it would work, and the head wouldn't snag on the edge of the paper. So I
machined a couple of brass disks to put on the paper roll spindle to hold
it in the right place. Worked fine, and I was happy until I went to
another branch of the same stationers to find they also had 216mm thermal
papepr...
98 ft rolls. They have a 1/2" dia core which
needs a piece of dowel
to support it in the 725 (and probably in the 733 too) and it is a much
I am sure I can make up something to hold it...
-tony
4 Jun
4 Jun
12:27 p.m.
Lars Hamren wrote:
Hi Lars.
Yes, it for the model you show in the photos. It's the full service
manual with theory of operations, parts list, board drawings,
and schematics. The only problem is the schematics look like they have
been reduced from "D" size to letter size and are a little
hard to read.
Manual no. 960129-9701 Rev E
revised November 1977
"Model 732/733 ASR/KSR Maintenance Manual
I'll try and get it over to Al to be scanned if he has the time. If
there's something specific you are looking for, I can scan a few pages
and email them to you.
I have three of these terminals myself, all in various states of
disrepair, that came with my TI 990 systems. A project for another day.
Bob
If I remember
correctly, someone was looking for a TI 733 manual.
That was me, a few weeks ago. I found one today while sorting some boxes.
Which manual did you find?
I am looking for a service/repair manual. I already have
"Model 733 ASR/KSR Operating Instructions, 959227-9701, Rev C"
revised October 1974.
This is the large TI terminal, not the portable
one.
Mine is the large one with casette drives, pictured here:
http://www.sdu.se/computer-automation-museum/pub/gallery/ti--silent-733-asr…
Thanks in advance
/Lars Hamr?n
5519
days inactive
5522
days old
15 comments
10 participants
participants (10)
-
aek＠bitsavers.org -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
bobalan＠sbcglobal.net -
chrise＠pobox.com -
dkelvey＠hotmail.com -
eric＠brouhaha.com -
hamren＠sdu.se -
mcguire＠neurotica.com -
rickb＠bensene.com -
wdonzelli＠gmail.com