Maybe Ted Nelson used the term to refer to computing specifically in late 1960s or within Dream Machines? b On Mon, Jan 16, 2017 at 1:36 PM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:

On Mon, Jan 16, 2017 at 7:01 PM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote: Sure... My point is that a very similar phrase ('What you see, you get') was used by a camera manufactuer some 15 years earlier (at least). -tony

The saying itself probably hearkens back to at least the 1940s. That it was made popular by Flip Wilson's Geraldine character is indisputable. That common usage probably accounts for the computer use with respect to word processing. Were this not true, the term would be something like WYSIWYP or WYSIWIP (What you see is what is printed), which was the point of the software. --Chuck

On Mon, Jan 16, 2017 at 2:04 PM, Tony Duell <ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com> wrote: I was curious to see if Ted Nelson used this term in Computer Lib or Dream Machines. A 5 minute browse did not reveal this, but I thought for sure once I read something he wrote that used this term.. Also, I found that there was a 1975 supplement to the original 1974 Dream Machines, so even if you have a "first printing" check the Dream Machines side to see if you have the special 1975 supplement that includes references to the Altair etc. The 1975 version is a tad squarer than the 1974 actual first printing. You would not notice unless you put them on top of each other (like I did). Not trying to hijack this thread, just passing along a factoid. The back point is be careful if you have the opportunity to buy a "first printing" of Computer Lib, that it's the taller thin version without the 1975 supplement, a few extra pages added to the front of Dream Machines. I think Computer Lib is as-was. Soon afterwards there was a more book-like Computer Lib, that's not what I am talking about. Bill

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017, Al Kossow wrote: OK, so use for computers, it was an appropriation of Flip Wilson's use. Flip Wilson's use of the phrase as a comedic social/vaguely sexual catchphrase was an appropriation of an earlier phrase in other uses. It was not "never heard before"! (Just as "You Asked For It, You Got It" existed long before and after the TV show of the same name) One of those uses in mid-sixties (and apparently earlier) was in photography for single lens reflex, intending to point out its advantage over rangefinder (Leica, etc.) As such, it was not uncommonly used, although never with as much intensity or silliness as when Flip Wilson picked it up. The alternative rangefinder systems did not have a catchphrase, just a thinner registration distance permitting much smaller cameras until the development of mirrorless DSLR (M4/3, Nex, etc. which can use Leica lenses on adapters) The alternative to WYSIWYG in computers, of embedding format codes visible to the author (such as "raw" HTML) was sometimes called YAFIYGI ("You Asked For It, You Got It"). That name never really caught on, as amateurs, such as ourselves, needed WYSIWYG. A professional typesetter scoffed at it, "I know what 36 point Helvetica looks like, I don't need it in my way to set a line of it." Although I did my early XenoCopy manuals with embedded Cordata codes and XenoFont screen captures, without his level of experience, I have difficulty justifying a line of text without WYSIWYG. And, contrary to the ads, WYSIWYG does NOT give me the capability of producing output comparable to his. Which brings up another ATTRIBUTION question. I think that it was Douglas Adams who said that DeskTop Publishing permits "justification of lines of text that previously would have had no possible justification". Anyone know the correct attribution details? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com