15 Jan
1999
15 Jan
'99
7:38 a.m.
Hi Mark,
If the Mac 128 is still available, I'm interested. I'm located in the
Washington, D.C. metro area. I have a number of appliance (home
computers) plus some Apples (II+, IIe's) available. I will post a list
to the members of Clasiccmp of what I'm excessing sometime this month.
marty(a)itgonline.com
______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
Subject: Classic Home Console Computers to Trade/Sell/Buy
Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet
Date: 1/15/99 7:05 AM
Hi Everyone,
I'm new to this list. I've been collecting classic home console computers
for about two years now and have some items to trade and some things I'm
looking for (either trade or buy). You can check out my collection on my
website at http://www.markrandall.com.
Regards,
Mark Randall
Play Incorporated
======================
Classic Computers To Trade:
======================
Apple IIGS (full system with monitor/printer)
Compaq Portable (original)
IBM PC Jr.
KayPro II
KayPro IV
Macintosh 128 (original)
Radio Shack Color Computer
Texas Instruments 99/4A
=================================
Computers I'm Looking to Buy / Trade For:
(Console Home Computers Only)
=================================
Acorn BBC Micro
Acorn Electron
Amstrad CPC 6128
Amstrad CPC 664
Atari 65XE
Atari 520ST
Camputers Lynx
Canon V-20 MSX
Dragon 32
EACA Colour Genie
EACA Video Genie 3003 (AKA System-80 / PMC 80)
Exidy Sorcerer
Franklin ACE 1200
Interact Model One
Jupiter ACE
Mattel Aquarius
Memotek MTX 500/512 (or RS128)
Oric 1
Oric Atmos
Panasonic JR-200U
Personal Micro Computer PMC 81
Phillips Videopac
Salora Fellow
Sharp MZ800 (MZ821)
Sinclair QL
Sinclair Spectrum
Sinclair Spectrum +
Sinclair Spectrum +2 / +2A / +3
SpectraVideo SVI 328
Sony HitBit
Sord M5
Timex Sinclair 1500
Timex Sinclair 2068
Toshiba HX-10
Toshiba T100
Video Technology Laser Compact XT
Video Technology VZ200
===============================
Computers Currently In My Collection
(Pictures at http://www.markrandall.com)
===============================
Amiga 500
Amiga 600
Amiga 1200
Amstrad 464 CPC
Atari 400
Atari 800
Atari 600XL
Atari 800XL
Atari 1200XL
Atari 130XE
Atari 1040 ST
Apple II
Apple IIc
Commodore 16
Commodore Plus/4
Commodore 64
Commodore 128
Commodore VIC 20
Laser 128
Radio Shack Color Computer
Radio Shack Micro Color Computer (MC-10)
Radio Shack Color Computer II (low rise keyboard)
Radio Shack Color Computer II (high rise keyboard)
Radio Shack Color Computer III
Radio Shack Model 1
Sinclair ZX80
Sinclair ZX81
Tano Dragon 64
Texas Instruments 99/4A (gray/silver)
Texas Instruments 99/4A (beige)
Timex Sinclair 1000
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From: "Mark Randall" <markr(a)play.com>
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers"
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Subject: Classic Home Console Computers to Trade/Sell/Buy
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17 Jan
17 Jan
9:44 a.m.
New subject: Old Radios posting - anyone with contact?
Would anyone who has had any contact with the Russian people who recently
listed "Old Radios" for sale on this list please contact me privately
(adavie(a)mad.scientist.com). I wish to ask a few questions regarding
communications you have received from them.
I'm now highly suspicious of these people.
A
--
adavie(a)mad.scientist.com <mailto:adavie@mad.scientist.com>
visit the Museum of Soviet Calculators at
<http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/slide/calculator/soviet.html>
http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/slide/calculator/soviet.html
?
10:08 a.m.
New subject: Disasters and Recovery
One of the reasons I want to have a completely spec'd Pentium class
computer is to create an archive that will survive a reasonable amount of
time (100 years in a time capsule) No doubt this is true elsewhere but some
folks and I came up with this idea to create a time capsule of things from
the last year before the year 2000 for people to look at in the year 2100.
I don't know of any 1899 capsules but they would have been fun to have
around as well. The goal then is to encapsulate a PC, with software, that
will survive 100 years of storage (probably a helium or argon atmosphere so
oxidation won't be a problem). Ideally the machine should be recoverable to
the point where you could boot an operating system on it and write a
program and run it on it.
As this list is full of folks who've dealt with the 'ravages of time' on
their collections, I was looking for things to protect against.
--Chuck
10:47 a.m.
New subject: Disasters and Recovery
On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, Chuck McManis wrote:
One of the reasons I want to have a completely
spec'd Pentium class
computer is to create an archive that will survive a reasonable amount of
time (100 years in a time capsule).
Don't leave them a clunky desktop box, leave them something like a sleek
Toshiba Portege 3010 (3lb notebook in magnesium case) along with a solar
cell so they can fire the thing up when they pull it out of the capsule.
Remove all batteries, of course.
-- Doug
11:03 a.m.
New subject: Disasters and Recovery
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11:09 a.m.
New subject: Disasters and Recovery
The goal then is to encapsulate a PC, with software,
that
will survive 100 years of storage (probably a helium or argon atmosphere so
oxidation won't be a problem). Ideally the machine should be recoverable to
the point where you could boot an operating system on it and write a
program and run it on it.
I wouldn't expect a hard drive to be workable after 100 years of storage,
even in an inert gas atmosphere.
My first reaction was to suggest that you put the software onto a flash disk,
but that can't be guaranteed to last anywhere near 100 years either, since the
electrons slowly leak from the floating gates.
Only about 75% of my floppy disks from 1977 are still readable.
CDR media is predicted by some to last more than 100 years. But I don't think
a CD-ROM drive will last that long.
Punched mylar tape? That should last hundreds of years. Of course, it's
not very representative of how computers are actually used in the last
decade of the 20th century.
11:22 a.m.
New subject: Disasters and Recovery
On 17 Jan 1999, Eric Smith wrote:
I wouldn't expect a hard drive to be workable
after 100 years of storage,
even in an inert gas atmosphere.
Why not? Which parts would degrade? I think most modern systems have
flash EPROMS, including some disk drive firmware, and that's probably
going to have problems as you mentioned. Even normal ROMs have problems
with fusing gates, right? I would think a hard disk and heads should be
OK if left undisturbed with no oxidizing agents and no strong magentic
fields.
Put representative types of common media in the capsule, and let the
people from the year 2100 figure out which survive best. Now, which OS
should the machine run, Linux or Windows?
-- Doug
12:26 p.m.
New subject: Disasters and Recovery
I wrote:
I wouldn't expect a hard drive to be workable
after 100 years of storage,
even in an inert gas atmosphere.
Doug <doug(a)blinkenlights.com> wrote:
Why not? Which parts would degrade?
Most everything inside the HDA. Remember the Quantum and Seagate drives that
wouldn't work after only a few months of storage, because of problems with
the lubricant?
Not to mention that hard drives almost all have firmware in flash or
OTP EPROM, and some have calibration information in EEPROM.
IMNSHO, it would be much easier to preserve a state-of-the-art 1970
minicomputer (e.g., a PDP-8 or PDP-11) in operable condition for the next
hundred years than a current PC.
If the 1970 minicomputer breaks, there might still be some suitable parts
in 2100 to fix it. And if there aren't exact replacements, it should be
possible to fabricate replacements. All of the parts are simple and
well-documented.
When a chip in your 1999 PC goes bad, the odds of being able to find a
suitable replacement in 2025 are pretty slim. By 2100 it's unlikely that
you'll be able to get any parts. For instance, what if the 82371AB PIIX4
chip fails? Right now it is easy to get those. But if there weren't any
available, could you program an FPGA to replace it? Certainly it is
theoretically possible, but it's not bloody likely. Do you have the
logic diagrams or equations for the PIIX4?
And mechanical things like disk drives are similar. It would be much easier
to fabricate a replacement part for an RK05 drive than for a Quantum
Fireball 12G IDE drive.
12:47 p.m.
New subject: Disasters and Recovery
On 17 Jan 1999, Eric Smith wrote:
Most everything inside the HDA. Remember the Quantum
and Seagate drives that
wouldn't work after only a few months of storage, because of problems with
the lubricant?
Sure, but oxidation is the enemy of lubricants, right? It's one thing to
talk about survival of machines in daily use or in typical environments
and another to talk about survival inside a sealed gas filled chamber.
If the archivists haven't already done so, it'd be a good move to simply
list the corruptive influences and which components were suseptible. My
guess that gravity is going to be a problem for some components, like disk
drives.
Influences Components Fix
--------------------------------------------------------------
O2 all inert gas and damn good seal
H2O all desiccants and damn good seal
gravity mechanical ?
int. chemical batteries eliminate
l/t chemical doped SiO2 ?
thermal all temp control (good luck!)
shock all don't bury in California
magnetic...
cosmic...
-- Doug
1:14 p.m.
New subject: Disasters and Recovery
On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, Doug wrote:
Influences Components Fix
--------------------------------------------------------------
O2 all inert gas and damn good seal
H2O all desiccants and damn good seal
gravity mechanical ?
int. chemical batteries eliminate
l/t chemical doped SiO2 ?
thermal all temp control (good luck!)
shock all don't bury in California
magnetic...
cosmic...
Also:
Influences Components Fix
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Capsule Raiders all (especially IMSAIs and Altairs) Booby traps and curses
Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.
Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 01/15/99]
1:21 p.m.
New subject: Disasters and Recovery
On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, Sam Ismail wrote:
Influences Components
Fix
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Capsule Raiders all (especially IMSAIs and Altairs) Booby traps and curses
No joke. That's probably the single biggest threat, and it's the reason
that Danny Hillis decided to use no valuable parts and no parts that would
make good souvenirs in his millenium clock.
-- Doug
1:34 p.m.
New subject: Disasters and Recovery
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1:54 p.m.
New subject: Disasters and Recovery
On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote:
I was thinking in terms of long-term forces applied. In general, any
mechanical linkage under a constant mechanical stress will fail or bend or
compress eventually, no? There's also a risk with anything under a
different pressure than the envionment, such as a display tube.
-- Doug
gravity mechanical ?
What harm is gravity going to do, unless the machine falls off a shelf or
something?
2:37 p.m.
New subject: Disasters and Recovery
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3:15 p.m.
New subject: Disasters and Recovery
Doug wrote:
Sure, but oxidation is the enemy of lubricants, right?
It's one thing to
talk about survival of machines in daily use or in typical environments
and another to talk about survival inside a sealed gas filled chamber.
Not relevant unless you actually plan to open the sealed HDA (better have
a cleanroom!), so that it is not filled with that nasty O2 stuff either.
Just putting the complete drive in an inert gas environment won't suffice;
some O2 will eventually leak out of the HDA, and some inert gas will leak
in, but there will be more than enough O2 in the HDA to cause problems.
1:29 p.m.
New subject: Disasters and Recovery
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12:29 p.m.
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1:20 p.m.
New subject: Disasters and Recovery
On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote:
The motor and positioner bearings will probably stick.
Sure you _can_
dismantle the HDA in a clean room and re-lubricate, but re-aligning the
drive will not be trivial
I would hope that in 100 years re-aligning a late-1990's hard drive would
be a trivial task. Otherwise there would be no purpose to this time
capsule thing.
It would be really funny if a technology time capsule from 1999 turned
into an extraordinary gift to a future that has lost all knowledge of
high-technology.
The heads will almost certainly stick to the platter,
and the head
surface may well be damaged as a result.
Will the platter demagnetise, or suffer from magnetic patterns shifting
with time. It's certainly possible.
By then they should have technology that can read the magnetic remnants of
a floppy disk that has disintegrated into dust, no?
Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.
Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 01/15/99]
3:41 p.m.
New subject: Disasters and Recovery
Sam wrote:
I would hope that in 100 years re-aligning a
late-1990's hard drive would
be a trivial task.
Doubtful. It's a hard task now, and it will only get harder, since the
necessary technical documentation (which is proprietary to the drive
manufacturer) will be long gone.
Personally I think that the best bet for 100 year data retention of large
amounts of data (such that punched tape or cards are impractical) is
CDR media kept in the dark under proper temperature and humidity control.
And make multiple copies on different brands of media.
Note that there are three important considerations to long-term data storage:
1) The media has to survive in a sufficiently good condition that it is
possible to recover the data from it.
2) A suitable mechanism for the data recovery has to exist, or be
constructed. Sufficient technical specifications of the media format
has to be preserved to allow the preservation or construction of the
mechanism.
3) Specifications for the data format must also be preserved. It does
very little good to be able to recover raw binary data from the disc
if you then are unable to interpret the data. For instance, a
comma-delimited ASCII text file will probably be easier to read
100 years from now than a Microsoft Excel '97 file. But carrying
this idea one step further, there still could be questions about what
the data represents. This is perhaps the most difficult problem.
The second consideration may actually require the use of media that is not
optimal for the first consideration. For instance, other forms of optical
WORM discs might have better longevity than CDR, but the technical
specifications are not as readily available.
For instance, people have suggested that in 100 years no one will be able to
read CDs. That may be true, but the CD-Audio format was specifically designed
to be easy to read, without even requiring a microprocessor (i.e., the P
subcode). As far as I know, no vendor ever sold a CD player that was not
microprocessor based, but the principle remains. And the CD-ROM format is a
fairly simple elaboration of the audio format. Technical documentation on the
CD-Audio and CD-ROM formats are so widely available now, that it is reasonable
to expect that a determined researcher 100 years from now should be able to
turn up copies.
Building a CD-Audio player without using only generic components (both
electrical and optical) with no parts specificially designed for CD players
could probably be accomplished in six months to a year by a small group of
researchers or graduate students. Expanding it into a CD-ROM drive would
not take too much additional effort.
Eric
3:51 p.m.
New subject: Disasters and Recovery
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6:12 p.m.
New subject: Disasters and Recovery
I think it's fair to assume that some kind of
microprocessors will exist
in 100 years time.
Sure. My point was that if the format was designed to be so easy to read
that a microprocessor isn't necessary, then it should be easy for someone
to build or fix a CD-ROM drive (with or without a microprocessor).
If the format had been designed with very powerful microprocessors in mind
(as is the case for anything designed now), the format would probably be
very complicated, and it would be much more difficult to engineer your own
drive.
Philips actually sold a CD-ROM drive that was based on
a CD player. The
modifications were a new microcontroller for the servo system (so that it
could accept commands from the PC to move tracks, etc), a gate array to
extract the data bits from the off-disk bit stream and a PC interface
card with an ASIC + buffer RAM on it to get that data onto the PC.
I have one. I even have the service manual for it. While it doesn't give
much information on the PC interface, it includes enough info to figure
out how it works.
I'm not sure which one you're referring to, but their first CD-ROM drive, the
top-loading CM-100 (aka DEC RRD-40, apparently) was based on the same
mechanism as their first Marantz brand CD-Audio player. Aside from the
CD-Audio chip set, there are no ASICs or other difficult-to-reverse-engineer
parts in it, or on the CM-153 host interface. They just took the audio chip
set, disabled the interpolation, and added an 8051 and about 35 TTL and CMOS
SSI chips to massage the data. Since the Philips CD-Audio chipset was
reasonably well documented, it was really easy to figure out how everything
worked and disassemble the 8051 code. Try that with a current 40X CD-ROM
drive. :-)
6:28 p.m.
New subject: Intel MCS-96 Design Kit
Anyone know what this Intel MCS-96 Design Kit is? It contains a C8095 in a
48 lead DIP, an A8097 pin-grid-array package, two D2004 DIPs, and two D27513
DIPs. The package appears to be complete and I would guess circa 1983.
6:33 p.m.
New subject: Intel MCS-96 Design Kit
On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, Marvin wrote:
Anyone know what this Intel MCS-96 Design Kit is? It
contains a C8095 in a
48 lead DIP, an A8097 pin-grid-array package, two D2004 DIPs, and two D27513
DIPs. The package appears to be complete and I would guess circa 1983.
MCS = Micro Computer System, I believe. 96 = 8096 (an intel
microcontroller). You have a design kit for the 8096.
(BTW, MDS = Microprocessor Development System, I think.)
-- Doug
18 Jan
18 Jan
4:08 a.m.
New subject: Intel MCS-96 Design Kit
Anyone know what this Intel MCS-96 Design Kit is? It
contains a C8095 in a
48 lead DIP, an A8097 pin-grid-array package, two D2004 DIPs, and two D27513
DIPs. The package appears to be complete and I would guess circa 1983.
Its a development kit for the MCS96 series of CPU a hig integrated
controller type CPU family - think of it like a mutant crossbreed
of a 8051 and a 80386sx - fast, and realy interesting to programm.
Used in a lot of application where a lot af real time CPU power
is needed, especialy high data throughput, like air plane systems,
car systems etc. The 96 has some 20+ interupt sources, high speed
i/o, 8/16 bit data bus, A/D etc. Very Register orientated (some
200 Registers depending on the adressing type) and simple. There
are a lot of versions with numbers from 8094 to 8096, 80194 to 80198
and around 80296 - together with subversions, names by two letters.
But most of them are just different on chip ROMs.
The 8097 is a 8096 with enhanced A/D functionality, the BHs are
the ROMless versions (I always grin a bit about this typecode,
since BH is the german abrevation for bra (BüstenHalter), so the
809xBH is a topless version :) in 68 pin PGA, while the 8095 is
also a 8096 with A/D but less I/O ports to fit a 48 pin DIL (again,
the BH is ROMless. Since there are EPROMS, I guess both are BHs.
(There are also EPROM versions, like always called 879x.
Gee, what I'm talking, check
http://developer.intel.com/design/MCS96/
(inel hides there information quite good - a search reveals
only a Y2K document) or better try
http://www.iaw.com/~aubertin/88mgt/eec-iv/8096cpu.htm
for more (did a quick search - Am I good ?:)
Hey, Marvin, If you don't like this beast, I spend my time in
helping orphaned singleboarders :)
Have a lot of fun (There are a lot of good development tools
for the MCS96 family, so it should be possible to play a bit).
In Intel's mind, the i960 is the successor...
Gruss
H.
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
8:21 a.m.
New subject: Intel MCS-96 Design Kit
On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, Hans Franke wrote:
Anyone want a couple of i960s? A friend had some cards each with a PLCC
i960 onboard. I imagine they can be had fairly inexpensively.
- don
Anyone know
what this Intel MCS-96 Design Kit is? It contains a C8095 in a
48 lead DIP, an A8097 pin-grid-array package, two D2004 DIPs, and two D27513
DIPs. The package appears to be complete and I would guess circa 1983.
Its a development kit for the MCS96 series of CPU a hig integrated
controller type CPU family - think of it like a mutant crossbreed
of a 8051 and a 80386sx - fast, and realy interesting to programm.
Used in a lot of application where a lot af real time CPU power
is needed, especialy high data throughput, like air plane systems,
car systems etc. The 96 has some 20+ interupt sources, high speed
i/o, 8/16 bit data bus, A/D etc. Very Register orientated (some
200 Registers depending on the adressing type) and simple. There
are a lot of versions with numbers from 8094 to 8096, 80194 to 80198
and around 80296 - together with subversions, names by two letters.
But most of them are just different on chip ROMs.
The 8097 is a 8096 with enhanced A/D functionality, the BHs are
the ROMless versions (I always grin a bit about this typecode,
since BH is the german abrevation for bra (BüstenHalter), so the
809xBH is a topless version :) in 68 pin PGA, while the 8095 is
also a 8096 with A/D but less I/O ports to fit a 48 pin DIL (again,
the BH is ROMless. Since there are EPROMS, I guess both are BHs.
(There are also EPROM versions, like always called 879x.
Gee, what I'm talking, check
http://developer.intel.com/design/MCS96/
(inel hides there information quite good - a search reveals
only a Y2K document) or better try
http://www.iaw.com/~aubertin/88mgt/eec-iv/8096cpu.htm
for more (did a quick search - Am I good ?:)
Hey, Marvin, If you don't like this beast, I spend my time in
helping orphaned singleboarders :)
Have a lot of fun (There are a lot of good development tools
for the MCS96 family, so it should be possible to play a bit).
In Intel's mind, the i960 is the successor... Gruss
H.
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
donm(a)cts.com
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives
Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society
Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology.
Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) Z-Node 9 - 619-454-8412
*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*
see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj
visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://devili.iki.fi/cpm
with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm
11:20 a.m.
New subject: Intel MCS-96 Design Kit
Hans Franke wrote:
Its a development kit for the MCS96 series of CPU a hig integrated
controller type CPU family - think of it like a mutant crossbreed
of a 8051 and a 80386sx - fast, and realy interesting to programm.
I took a look at a piece of the sales literature, and it was dated 1984.
Are these things still used?
Hey, Marvin, If you don't like this beast, I spend
my time in
helping orphaned singleboarders :)
Well actually, this kit consists only of the chips and sales literature; the
data sheets have been removed although they might be in a batch of other
data sheets I picked up (I hope!)
19 Jan
19 Jan
12:57 a.m.
New subject: Intel MCS-96 Design Kit
> Its a development kit for the MCS96 series of CPU
a hig integrated
> controller type CPU family - think of it like a mutant crossbreed
> of a 8051 and a 80386sx - fast, and realy interesting to programm.
I took a look at a piece of the sales literature, and
it was dated 1984.
Are these things still used?
Jep, _heavy_ used - like 8048 (et al) are also still used for new
development in the low range - the MCS96 is some kind of mid (or now
lower mid) range product for high data thruput.
> Hey, Marvin, If you don't like this beast, I
spend my time in
> helping orphaned singleboarders :)
Well actually, this kit consists only of the chips and
sales literature; the
data sheets have been removed although they might be in a batch of other
data sheets I picked up (I hope!)
Ahh - I wasalready wondering why there are two CPUs.
Gruss
H.
--
Traue keinem Menschen der 5 Tage blutet und immer noch nicht tod ist.
18 Jan
18 Jan
7:58 a.m.
New subject: Disasters and Recovery
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19 Jan
19 Jan
8:12 a.m.
New subject: why (was: Disasters and Recovery)
> top-loading CM-100 (aka DEC RRD-40, apparently)
was based on the same
> mechanism as their first Marantz brand CD-Audio player. Aside from the
> CD-Audio chip set, there are no ASICs or other difficult-to-reverse-engineer
> parts in it, or on the CM-153 host interface. They just took the audio chip
> set, disabled the interpolation, and added an 8051 and about 35 TTL and CMOS
Why do I suddenly want one of these????
Seductive marketing techniques ?
Tey tell you a whole bunch of unimportant data (stupid numbers
and abrevations) and within a Blink you know _this_is_it_ !
Marketing !
Gruss
H.
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
17 Jan
17 Jan
4:31 p.m.
New subject: Disasters and Recovery
On 18 Jan 1999, Eric Smith wrote:
Sam wrote:
We're talking 100 years here. Computers didn't even exist in 1899, and
now you can wear one on a ring. I think aligning a 1999 hard drive, a
physical item that is still very visible by the naked eye, will be among
the more mundane tasks in 2099.
Of course, the point is pretty much moot anyway.
Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.
Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 01/15/99]
I would hope that in 100 years re-aligning a
late-1990's hard drive would
be a trivial task.
Doubtful. It's a hard task now, and it will only get harder, since the
necessary technical documentation (which is proprietary to the drive
manufacturer) will be long gone.
5 p.m.
New subject: Disasters and Recovery
We're talking 100 years here. Computers
didn't even exist in 1899, and
now you can wear one on a ring. I think aligning a 1999 hard drive, a
physical item that is still very visible by the naked eye, will be among
the more mundane tasks in 2099.
Repairing a 50-year old mechanical computing device can be difficult. Why
would you expect that repairing a 100-year-old electromechanical device
would be easy? Do you expect the universities to start turning out
thousands of Wesley Crusher clones or something?
Perhaps you're assuming that hard drive technology will be so advanced by
2099 that any twelve year old will be able to figure out that old 1999 stuff.
But that's not a very reasonable assumption. Just because the technology
gets more advanced doesn't mean that the older stuff becomes any simpler.
If we're still using disk drives in 2099, they might bear so little
resemblance to the ones we have now that few people will even remember the
details of how the 1999 drives worked. (After all, few people *now* know
the precise details of how the 1999 drives work.)
You look at a disk drive and say, "Oh, that's simple, a disk spins and an
actuator moves a magnetic head back and forth." But if it is so simple,
why didn't they have 18G 3.5 inch drives 25 years ago? Just like any
complex technology, there is an awful lot of detail that goes into making
it work. And a lot of that detail isn't written down on paper *anywhere*.
It's in the heads of the engineers. If we wanted to build Saturn V launch
vehicles again, for instance, a lot of things would have to be relearned.
Just because we have the engineering drawings does NOT mean that we fully
understand it or know what it takes to make it work reliably.
18 Jan
18 Jan
7:53 a.m.
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19 Jan
19 Jan
10:48 a.m.
New subject: Disasters and Recovery
On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote:
How many electronic technicians can still handle
valves/tubes?
Quite a bunch, actually, especially those who fix radio equipment. Good
RF (and AF) amplifiers use valves.
Brad Ackerman N1MNB "...faced with the men and women who bring home
bsa3(a)cornell.edu the pork, voters almost always re-elect them."
http://skaro.pair.com/ -- _The Economist_, 31 Oct 1998
18 Jan
18 Jan
7:47 a.m.
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1:19 p.m.
New subject: Disasters and Recovery
On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote:
Your (and Eric's) point is well taken.
I guess I'm just an optimist, thinking that 100 years from now we'll be
living in a society like in Star Trek: The Next Generation, where you just
ask the computer a question and it (usually) has all the answers.
Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.
Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 01/15/99]
We're
talking 100 years here. Computers didn't even exist in 1899, and
now you can wear one on a ring. I think aligning a 1999 hard drive, a
physical item that is still very visible by the naked eye, will be among
the more mundane tasks in 2099.
Do you think it's a trivial mundane task to make a part for a 100 year
old watch or a 50 year old camera? What about a mechanical calculating
machine.
17 Jan
17 Jan
6:05 p.m.
New subject: Disasters and Recovery
On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, Sam Ismail wrote:
donm(a)cts.com
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives
Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society
Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology.
Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) Z-Node 9 - 619-454-8412
*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*
see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj
visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://devili.iki.fi/cpm
with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm
On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote:
Well, do not forget the 'chisel and flat rock' technology. That is
pretty durable!
- don
The motor and positioner bearings will probably
stick. Sure you _can_
dismantle the HDA in a clean room and re-lubricate, but re-aligning the
drive will not be trivial
I would hope that in 100 years re-aligning a late-1990's hard drive would
be a trivial task. Otherwise there would be no purpose to this time
capsule thing.
It would be really funny if a technology time capsule from 1999 turned
into an extraordinary gift to a future that has lost all knowledge of
high-technology. The heads will
almost certainly stick to the platter, and the head
surface may well be damaged as a result.
Will the platter demagnetise, or suffer from magnetic patterns shifting
with time. It's certainly possible.
By then they should have technology that can read the magnetic remnants of
a floppy disk that has disintegrated into dust, no?
Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.
Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 01/15/99]
18 Jan
18 Jan
7:51 a.m.
New subject: Long term data storage (was: Disasters and Recovery
Well, do not forget the 'chisel and flat rock'
technology. That is
pretty durable!
Although far from a linear relationship, it is beginning to sound as though
data density is directly related to technology advancement, and data
longevity is inversely related.
So, how'zbout build a stonehenge like creation, and chisel the bits into
the hard sectors? Has anyone taken a close enough look at Stonehenge to
confirm that the media is unformatted? At least designing the drive
would be easier than one for reading sheep. (hint: move the head, not the
platter)
8:26 a.m.
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9:14 a.m.
New subject: Long term data storage (was: Disasters and Recovery
On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote:
And I am not too sure that the stones are necessarily in the original
positions. Some years back, while sipping an ale in a pub in Salisbury,
I was chatting with a native who told me that during WWII the stones had
been laid flat since they were too good a landmark for the Luftwaffe and
only re-erected after the war. True? Don't know, but it makes some
sense.
Tony, ever hear that?
- don
Well, do not
forget the 'chisel and flat rock' technology. That is
pretty durable!
Although far from a linear relationship, it is beginning to sound as though
data density is directly related to technology advancement, and data
longevity is inversely related.
So, how'zbout build a stonehenge like creation, and chisel the bits into
the hard sectors? Has anyone taken a close enough look at Stonehenge to
confirm that the media is unformatted? At least designing the drive
would be easier than one for reading sheep. (hint: move the head, not the
platter)
10:14 a.m.
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11:58 a.m.
New subject: Long term data storage (was: Disasters and Recovery
A recent program on Stonehenge on the Discovery channel said the RAF wanted to
level Stonehenge with explosives, but the person who owned the land they were
on refused to let them. *boggle* Is it just me, or does all this suggest
that in the 1930s and early 40s good maps were much harder to come by than
today? I know the advent of satelite mapping has improved it, but you'd think
anyone planning to invade England would have gone there in 1938 and just
BOUGHT maps.
I've never heard that one. Plenty of things like
that were done in WW2,
mostly to impress upon the public that 'there's a war on'.
Both my parents (who lived through the war) assure me that Stonehenge was
not moved, laid flat, or anything else in the war.
Of course some things (stained glass windows, for example) were moved to
protect them in the event of bombing.
Anyway, stones lying flat in a field would also be a good landmark IMHO.
Possibly even more visible.
-tony
--
Jim Strickland
jim(a)DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
1:46 p.m.
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19 Jan
19 Jan
4:11 a.m.
New subject: Long term data storage (was: Disasters and Recovery
At 12:46 AM 1/19/1999 +0000, you wrote:
I once heard that the Luftwaffe got a lot of its info on the location of
British aircraft factories from advertising in The Aeroplane and other
magazines.
Regards
Charlie Fox
Charles E. Fox
Chas E. Fox Video Productions
793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada
email foxvideo(a)wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo
>
> A recent program on Stonehenge on the Discovery channel said the RAF
wanted to
> level Stonehenge with explosives, but the person
who owned the land they
were
on refused to
let them. *boggle* Is it just me, or does all this suggest
that in the 1930s and early 40s good maps were much harder to come by than
A lot of it was propaganda to the British public to convince them how
important the war was....
Of course there were maps. Ordnance Survey maps were originally produced
for military use (hence the name), but nowadays are available just about
anywhere in the UK (most bookshops keep at least the local ones). During
the war they were probably impossible to obtain, but before the war, trivial.
And you can bet they had got them in Germany as well. After all, the
British certainly had German maps.
The other thing that worries me is that Stonehenge is not the best
landmark in that area. Salisbury Cathedral's spire is probably a lot
easier to see from a distance.
-tony
12:48 p.m.
New subject: Long term data storage (was: Disasters and Recovery
On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote:
Indeed it is, Tony, but spires are rather commonplace in England -
although at 400 odd feet, it is rather more obvious than others - and
Stonehenge is just a bit unique.
- don
A recent program on Stonehenge on the Discovery channel said the RAF wanted to
level Stonehenge with explosives, but the person who owned the land they were
on refused to let them. *boggle* Is it just me, or does all this suggest
that in the 1930s and early 40s good maps were much harder to come by than
A lot of it was propaganda to the British public to convince them how
important the war was....
Of course there were maps. Ordnance Survey maps were originally produced
for military use (hence the name), but nowadays are available just about
anywhere in the UK (most bookshops keep at least the local ones). During
the war they were probably impossible to obtain, but before the war, trivial.
And you can bet they had got them in Germany as well. After all, the
British certainly had German maps.
The other thing that worries me is that Stonehenge is not the best
landmark in that area. Salisbury Cathedral's spire is probably a lot
easier to see from a distance. 
18 Jan
18 Jan
3:38 p.m.
New subject: Long term data storage (was: Disasters and Recovery
At 03:58 PM 1/18/99 -0700, you wrote:
A recent program on Stonehenge on the Discovery channel
said the RAF
wanted to
level Stonehenge with explosives, but the person who
owned the land they were
on refused to let them. *boggle* Is it just me, or does all this suggest
that in the 1930s and early 40s good maps were much harder to come by than
today? I know the advent of satelite mapping has improved it, but you'd
think
anyone planning to invade England would have gone there
in 1938 and just
BOUGHT maps.
The problem wasn't the maps, it was the fact that if you were in a plane
and caught above the cloads and then came down you had NO idea where you
where since the winds could have pushed you in ANY direction away from your
predicted location. One bridge, railroad, road, church steeple looks
pretty much like another but Stonehenge is an ABSOULUTELY unique landmark!
Joe
I've never heard that one. Plenty of things
like that were done in WW2,
mostly to impress upon the public that 'there's a war on'.
Both my parents (who lived through the war) assure me that Stonehenge was
not moved, laid flat, or anything else in the war.
Of course some things (stained glass windows, for example) were moved to
protect them in the event of bombing.
Anyway, stones lying flat in a field would also be a good landmark IMHO.
Possibly even more visible.
-tony
--
Jim Strickland
jim(a)DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
2:14 p.m.
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5:42 p.m.
New subject: Long term data storage (was: Disasters and Recovery
On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, Joe wrote:
At 03:58 PM 1/18/99 -0700, you wrote:
Well, except perhaps for the concrete replica in the Columbia River Valley.
- don
A recent program on Stonehenge on the Discovery
channel said the RAF
wanted to
level Stonehenge with explosives, but the person
who owned the land they were
on refused to let them. *boggle* Is it just me, or does all this suggest
that in the 1930s and early 40s good maps were much harder to come by than
today? I know the advent of satelite mapping has improved it, but you'd
think
anyone planning to invade England would have gone
there in 1938 and just
BOUGHT maps.
The problem wasn't the maps, it was the fact that if you were in a plane
and caught above the cloads and then came down you had NO idea where you
where since the winds could have pushed you in ANY direction away from your
predicted location. One bridge, railroad, road, church steeple looks
pretty much like another but Stonehenge is an ABSOULUTELY unique landmark!
Joe I've never heard that one. Plenty of things
like that were done in WW2,
mostly to impress upon the public that 'there's a war on'.
Both my parents (who lived through the war) assure me that Stonehenge was
not moved, laid flat, or anything else in the war.
Of course some things (stained glass windows, for example) were moved to
protect them in the event of bombing.
Anyway, stones lying flat in a field would also be a good landmark IMHO.
Possibly even more visible.
-tony
--
Jim Strickland
jim(a)DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
19 Jan
19 Jan
3:29 a.m.
New subject: Long term data storage (was: Disasters and Recovery
At 08:42 PM 1/18/99 -0800, don wrote:
Well, except perhaps for the concrete replica in the Columbia River Valley.
Geez, are you that lost Don?
Joe
On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, Joe wrote:
> At 03:58 PM 1/18/99 -0700, you wrote:
> >A recent program on Stonehenge on the Discovery channel said the RAF
> wanted to
> >level Stonehenge with explosives, but the person who owned the land
they
were
> >on refused to let them. *boggle* Is it just
me, or does all this suggest
> >that in the 1930s and early 40s good maps were much harder to come by
than
today? I know the advent of satelite mapping has
improved it, but you'd
think
anyone planning to invade England would have gone
there in 1938 and just
BOUGHT maps.
The problem wasn't the maps, it was the fact that if you were in a plane
and caught above the cloads and then came down you had NO idea where you
where since the winds could have pushed you in ANY direction away from your
predicted location. One bridge, railroad, road, church steeple looks
pretty much like another but Stonehenge is an ABSOULUTELY unique landmark!
Joe 
18 Jan
18 Jan
3:46 p.m.
New subject: Long term data storage (was: Disasters and Recovery
Jim Strickland wrote:
--
Ward Griffiths <mailto:gram@cnct.com> <http://www.cnct.com/home/gram/>
WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.
A recent program on Stonehenge on the Discovery channel said the RAF wanted to
level Stonehenge with explosives, but the person who owned the land they were
on refused to let them. *boggle* Is it just me, or does all this suggest
that in the 1930s and early 40s good maps were much harder to come by than
today? I know the advent of satelite mapping has improved it, but you'd think
anyone planning to invade England would have gone there in 1938 and just
BOUGHT maps.
On-board instrumentation on German aircraft was not that good (as it was
also not that good on English or American planes early in the War) during
the Blitzkrieg. Landmarks were often crucial. Stonehenge _may_ have been
a landmark, but there weren't that many targets (none that I can think of)
beyond it for bombing raids from the usual directions -- at most, it would
have clued the navigator to tell the pilot to turn around.
Stonehenge was definitely neither bulldozed nor bombed. It would show, and
too many people have examined it since then. (And a number of groups held
ceremonies there during the war, not always with the permission of the
government despite the fact that they were on the same side).
I've never
heard that one. Plenty of things like that were done in WW2,
mostly to impress upon the public that 'there's a war on'.
Both my parents (who lived through the war) assure me that Stonehenge was
not moved, laid flat, or anything else in the war.
Of course some things (stained glass windows, for example) were moved to
protect them in the event of bombing.
Anyway, stones lying flat in a field would also be a good landmark IMHO.
Possibly even more visible.
-tony
--
Jim Strickland
jim(a)DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there?
----------------------------------------------------------------------- 
19 Jan
19 Jan
7:30 a.m.
New subject: OT: Navigation Aids (was Long term data storage) (was: Disasters
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 21:46:00 -0500
Reply-to: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu
From: Ward Donald Griffiths III <gram(a)cnct.com>
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers"
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Long term data storage (was: Disasters and Recovery
Jim Strickland wrote:
On-board instrumentation on German aircraft was not
that good
I beg to differ. The Luftwaffe had a very good radio navigation system
mostly in place at the start of the war, a development of the Lorenz Blind
Landing system (essentially a VHF Aural Range or VAR) called " Knickebein"
(Crooked Leg). Knickebein was used to allow Luftwaffe aircraft to navigate
with considerable accuracy over England, and made night bombing worth the
effort. It was detected and (ultimately) jammed, and was essentially unuseable
after July 1940. A constant race (The "Battle of the Beams") went on between
British Scientific Intelligence trying to figure out what new radio navaids
were being developed and used, and means to jam them, and the Germans trying
to come up with replacements for navaids that were compromised or jammed. A
replacement for the jammed Knickebein system was instrumental in the
destruction of Coventry. "Pathfinder" aircraft of KG100 using the then new
"X-Gerat" system marked the target with incendiary devices so that the recently
de-Knickebeined main force could locate and bomb the target. This took place
by night, so visual navigation was not being depended on.
(as it was also not that good on English or American
planes early in the War)
This is certainly true. The RAF heirarchy were still of the opinion that it
was possible to navigate accurately at night by astronomical means, in the same
way that ships did. This was ultimately proven to be wishful thinking, but the
attitude delayed the introduction of navaids like Gee and Oboe for some time.
Landmarks were often crucial.
Useful by day, but the Germans found that bombing during the day was perilous
in the extreme, an experience shared by the US Air Force over Germany somewhat
later. At night landmarks have little practical use. Unless they are on fire
of course. Interestingly, the Coventry raid was made during a full moon, and
anecdotal reports from Luftwaffe aircrew suggests that they could probably have
found the target visually, particularly after it was well alight.
Much of this was detailed in a BBC TV series called "The Secret War", and in a
book of the same name. Another book by the then head of British Scientific
Intelligence, R.V. Jones "Most Secret War" goes in more depth into this and
other fascinating things.
To get us back on topic, there is considerable time given in these sources to
the means used to crack the codes generated by the German Enigma and
Geheimschreiber encrypting machines. Arguably the first true electronic
computer, Colossus, was built specifically to deal with the Geheimschreiber,
and had contributions to it's design by the legendary Alan Turing himself..
The book "The Ultra Secret" goes into the whole business of the Enigma codes,
and the breaking of them, which aided the Allies enormously throughout the war.
I tried to name my first VAX "Colossus" in it's honour, (and because of
it's
SIZE - it's a 6000) but was foiled by the 6 character limit in VMS/Decnet host
names. So I had to settle for ENIGMA.
Cheers
Geoff Roberts
Computer Systems Manager
Saint Mark's College,
Port Pirie, South Australia
geoffrob(a)stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au
20 Jan
20 Jan
3:33 a.m.
New subject: Long term data storage (was: Disasters and Recovery
> And I am not too sure that the stones are
necessarily in the original
> positions. Some years back, while sipping an ale in a pub in Salisbury,
> I was chatting with a native who told me that during WWII the stones had
> been laid flat since they were too good a landmark for the Luftwaffe and
> only re-erected after the war. True? Don't know, but it makes some
> sense.
Sounds like a tall tale.
The Germans used electronic means to guide their bombers, not visual.
William Donzelli
william(a)ans.net
17 Jan
17 Jan
1:21 p.m.
New subject: Disasters and Recovery
Eric Smith and Tony Duell wrote:
Obviously, modern technology (since roughly 1975, as far as computers are
concerned) was not made to last 100 years or even 10.
Why not?
Which parts would degrade? I think most modern systems have
Just about all of them :-(
A lot of hard drives store HDA parameters (bad blocks, servo settings,
etc) in an E2PROM on the logic board. It's programmed for that particular
HDA. SO I think that will be long-gone. Ditto other bits of silicon will fail The motor and positioner bearings will probably stick.
Sure you _can_
dismantle the HDA in a clean room and re-lubricate, but re-aligning the
drive will not be trivial
Perhaps the only alternative would be to put _dis_assembled parts in the
time capsule, and leave detailed directions for assembly. A statement like
"These are the best directions we could find. Note that the 1979 computer
is a lot easier to work with. Note how technology has changed in 20 years."
would be an effective (if not encouraging) comment for the people in 2100!
I wonder if the hard drive and motherboard manufacturers would have any
sympathy for people who are making time capsules and give out their
proprietary information? Probably not but it's worth a shot. :)
-- Derek
1:29 p.m.
New subject: Disasters and Recovery
On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, D. Peschel wrote:
I wonder if the hard drive and motherboard
manufacturers would have any
sympathy for people who are making time capsules and give out their
proprietary information? Probably not but it's worth a shot. :)
Yes, I was thinking about that, but if you change the rules or widen the
scope, this discussion will definitely have to move to its own mailing
list. All you need to do is get Bill Gates, or some other rich ego
maniac, involved, and they'll fund the 100-year computer and even throw
the source code for Windows 98 in there as well.
-- Doug
1:41 p.m.
New subject: Disasters and Recovery
Doug Yowza wrote:
Change the rules? I thought the point was to get complete information, by
whatever means. (Well, by whatever _ethical_ means.)
I was thinking of getting the information at the component level. If I got
Bill Gates involved, the result would be a rather unrealistic design. (It
would probably comply with Microsoft's PC99 spec. And probably the spec --
along with every single Microsoft Press book -- would end up in the time
capsule.) Also, I would be too tempted to break into the capsule and get
the source code out.
-- Derek
On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, D. Peschel wrote:
I wonder if
the hard drive and motherboard manufacturers would have any
sympathy for people who are making time capsules and give out their
proprietary information? Probably not but it's worth a shot. :)
Yes, I was thinking about that, but if you change the rules or widen the
scope, this discussion will definitely have to move to its own mailing
list. All you need to do is get Bill Gates, or some other rich ego
maniac, involved, and they'll fund the 100-year computer and even throw
the source code for Windows 98 in there as well.
1:50 p.m.
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3:50 p.m.
New subject: Disasters and Recovery
I wonder if
the hard drive and motherboard manufacturers would have any
sympathy for people who are making time capsules and give out their
proprietary information? Probably not but it's worth a shot. :)
There isn't _that_ much proprietary information, actually, other than
gate-level diagrams of all the chips, which you have _no_ chance of getting.
3:57 p.m.
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18 Jan
18 Jan
4:26 a.m.
New subject: Disasters and Recovery
Doug wrote:
On 17 Jan 1999, Eric Smith wrote:
Jerome Fine replies:
I have a very serious question. I want to be able to run a PDP-11 Qbus system
until 2036. If you want to know the reason, it is because the DATE word
value turns "negative" (the high order bit is first used) on 01-Jan-2036.
While
I realize that this objective is probably ridiculous from most points of view and
it is possible that I will not be around when I am 97 to enjoy watching the
change over in real-time as it actually happens for real, nevertheless, it is
a present goal and plan of mine to take 1985 hardware and software and
have it running 36 additional years from NOW.
Can anyone suggest if my goal of having a BA23 with a PDP-11 inside
(MicroPDP-11) still running in 36 more years is reasonable. And what
might it take to accomplish the goal. In addition, I am more interested in
the software, namely RT-11 (which I intend to gradually convert for
hobby users for V5.3 by the end of the year for the utilities which are
most of interest - I have already done some of V5.4G, but it is not
available for hobby use). The question is which system is more likely
to be able to run in 36 years:
(a) A real MicroPDP-11
(b) Some sort of OS and hardware which can run W95 which is presently
able to run the E11 PDP-11 emulator by John Wilson?
Sincerely yours,
Jerome Fine
RT-11/TSX-PLUS User/Addict
I wouldn't expect a hard drive to be workable
after 100 years of storage,
even in an inert gas atmosphere.
Why not? Which parts would degrade? I think most modern systems have
flash EPROMS, including some disk drive firmware, and that's probably
going to have problems as you mentioned. Even normal ROMs have problems
with fusing gates, right? I would think a hard disk and heads should be
OK if left undisturbed with no oxidizing agents and no strong magentic
fields.
Put representative types of common media in the capsule, and let the
people from the year 2100 figure out which survive best. Now, which OS
should the machine run, Linux or Windows? 
1:55 p.m.
New subject: Disasters and Recovery
On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, Jerome Fine wrote:
The question is which system is more likely
to be able to run in 36 years:
(a) A real MicroPDP-11
(b) Some sort of OS and hardware which can run W95
(A) is the answer - as (B) can not be done reliably even today 8-)
which is presently able to run the E11 PDP-11
emulator by John Wilson?
Well I vote for the PDP-11 - get some spares and set them aside - every
5 years swap the spares in the machine to make sure they still work.
Fix anything that doesn't - been working for me for 10 years...
BC
5:46 p.m.
New subject: Unibus boards for trade
Hi all,
I have the following Unibus boards for trade if anyone needs them:
M9313, M9202, M7793, M7793, M7258, M8396
The things I'm looking for are:
RSTS docs (fiche OK)
PDP hand books/programming cards
MARCO11 manuals
Misc RT11/RSX manuals (older OK)
RCA1802 related stuff - Especially a manual and/or schematics for a Quest
Super ELF.
If you need one of the cards but don't have extras to trade, drop me a note
and
I'll send it to you at cost (but trades get first priority :-)
Kirk
19 Jan
19 Jan
7:06 a.m.
New subject: Unibus boards for trade
Hi all,
I have the following Unibus boards for trade if anyone needs them:
M9313, M9202, M7793, M7793, M7258, M8396
In order,
M9313 - UET Unibus Excercisor and Terminator
M9202 - UNIBUS backplane jumper
M7793 - Half of a DEUNA.
M7793 - Half of a DEUNA (perhaps you have an M7792 and cables?)
M7258 - LP11
M8396 - DMF32
The things I'm looking for are:
RCA1802 related stuff - Especially a manual and/or schematics for a Quest
Super ELF.
I have a fairly good collection of 1802 docs from the 1970's and 1980's..
Is that worth a trade?
-ethan
8:11 a.m.
New subject: Unibus boards for trade
M9313 - UET Unibus Excercisor and Terminator
M9202 - UNIBUS backplane jumper
M7793 - Half of a DEUNA.
M7793 - Half of a DEUNA (perhaps you have an M7792 and cables?)
M7258 - LP11
M8396 - DMF32
Oops, I have 2 sets of DEUNA cards (2 M7793 & 2 M7792) but only one cabinet
kit
(which is spoken for). I'm going check back today and see if the place I got
it
from has another.
The things I'm looking for are:
RCA1802 related stuff - Especially a manual and/or schematics
for a Quest
Super ELF.
I have a fairly good collection of 1802 docs from the 1970's and 1980's..
Is that worth a trade?
8:37 a.m.
New subject: Unibus boards for trade
Oops, I have 2 sets of DEUNA cards (2 M7793 & 2
M7792) but only one cabinet
kit (which is spoken for). I'm going check back today and see if the place
I got it from has another.
I'd be interested in a DEUNA. I have a couple of 11/750's and I'd like to
get one on the network.
The things I'm looking for are:
RCA1802 related stuff - Especially a manual and/or schematics
for a Quest
Super ELF.
I have a fairly good collection of 1802 docs from the 1970's and 1980's..
Is that worth a trade?
7:47 p.m.
New subject: Heathkit H11 (was Re: Unibus boards for trade
On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Ethan Dicks wrote:
M9313 - UET Unibus Excercisor and Terminator
M9202 - UNIBUS backplane jumper
M7793 - Half of a DEUNA.
M7793 - Half of a DEUNA (perhaps you have an M7792 and cables?)
M7258 - LP11
M8396 - DMF32
Is there an online resource that has a definitive list of DEC modules and
their descriptions?
I'd like to configure a Heathkit H11 as a *small* PDP-11 with just CPU
(M7270 LSI-11/02), terminal, and paper tape. I have no cards for it now,
but I've got the M7270 on order.
Which cards do I need for RAM, serial, and parallel I/O? I know nothing
about DEC buses. Do I need a bus terminator or anything else? Also, I
recall that something about the H11 wasn't DEC compatible, but I don't
remember what it was....
-- Doug
8:12 p.m.
New subject: Heathkit H11 (was Re: Unibus boards for trade
Is there an online resource that has a definitive list
of DEC modules and
their descriptions?
http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/
http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/hardwar…
http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/hardwar…
ld-guide.txt
The Field Guide is my primary source of info. I've printed it out at about
6pt,and then stappled and cut off the excess paper, folded up it's about a
3" square, perfect for putting in ones pocket.
I'd like to configure a Heathkit H11 as a *small*
PDP-11 with just CPU
(M7270 LSI-11/02), terminal, and paper tape. I have no cards for it now,
but I've got the M7270 on order.
Which cards do I need for RAM, serial, and parallel I/O? I know nothing
about DEC buses. Do I need a bus terminator or anything else? Also, I
recall that something about the H11 wasn't DEC compatible, but I don't
remember what it was....
For what you're wanting it doesn't matter that the H11 wasn't DEC
compatible, you won't be running a H11 you'll be running a LSI-11 in a H11
chassis. I'm not familiar with the H11, but on any Q-Bus backplane I've
used the terminator seems to be built in (at least I've never had to worry
about it).
You'll need a RAM card, a SLU (serial), and whatever a paper tape
reader/punch interfaces with (SLU also I assume). A copy of the
"Microcomputer Processor Handbook 1979-80" or equivalent would be a major
help for you also. It includes a section on memories. Not sure what else
you might need for a setup like you want.
Zane
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast |
| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ |
9:01 p.m.
New subject: Heathkit H11 (was Re: Unibus boards for trade
On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Zane H. Healy wrote:
You'll need a RAM card, a SLU (serial), and
whatever a paper tape
reader/punch interfaces with (SLU also I assume). A copy of the
"Microcomputer Processor Handbook 1979-80" or equivalent would be a major
help for you also. It includes a section on memories. Not sure what else
you might need for a setup like you want.
Thanks, Zane! Anybody have spares of the following:
M8044-{B,CA,DA} MSV11-D{B,C,D} 8/16/32K RAM
M8021 MRV11-BA EPROM+RAM
M7940 DLV11 SLU
M7941 DRV11 parallel i/o
-- Doug
17 Jan
17 Jan
12:26 p.m.
New subject: Disasters and Recovery
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1:18 p.m.
New subject: Disasters and Recovery
On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote:
How about we start sending all our precious data into space via radio
waves towards some big celestial body (like one of Jupiter's moons) so
that in X years it will bounce back and we can then retrieve it
(hopefully intact thanks to some keen error correction protocol). Of
course you'd have to send it on such a trajectory that both the
transmission and bounced data stream are not obscured by some other object
(like that pesky moon!)
Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.
Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 01/15/99]
Punched mylar
tape? That should last hundreds of years. Of course, it's
not very representative of how computers are actually used in the last
decade of the 20th century.
Yes, punched tape (or maybe cards) is one of the longest-lived backing
stores.
There are reliable electronic stores. Braided wire ROM is one of them.
But none of them are high-density, or are anything like the typical
memories of 1999.
1:37 p.m.
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18 Jan
18 Jan
10:13 a.m.
New subject: Disasters and Recovery
Tony Duell wrote:
Schematics. Source code. Drawings. Any other available technical
info. _Printed_ on acid-free paper (hemp is best). From proper
documentation anything can be built from scratch. We have examples
around of printed media that lasted 20 times as long as a mere
century time capsule, and they didn't have much preservative
technology besides pottery jars in a cave in a dry climate. With the
addition of dessicants and oxygen absorbers to properly sealed
containers of inert gases, printed media should last for a few ice-age
cycles. But I really wouldn't expect a modern computer do manage more
than a few decades at best unless somebody developed a functional
"stasis field", and we need a major breakthrough in theoretical
physics -- and the followup engineering -- for that to happen. In the
meantime, human-readable media is probably the best bet, although a
bit bulky. (For reasons other than "planned obsolescence", modern
artifacts are not as durable as those of primitive people, even when
they use the same materials, as we use them in more delicate forms --
compare a Roman gold coin to the gold components in a computer).
--
Ward Griffiths <mailto:gram@cnct.com> <http://www.cnct.com/home/gram/>
WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.
How about we start sending all our precious data
into space via radio
waves towards some big celestial body (like one of Jupiter's moons) so
that in X years it will bounce back and we can then retrieve it
Jupiter's moons are nowhere near far enough away for this. Radio waves
travel at the speed of light. I'm not sure how far away jupiter is, but
it's a lot less than 1 light year.
(hopefully intact thanks to some keen error
correction protocol). Of
A good paper-based storage system (either punched tape or stable printout 
11:05 a.m.
New subject: Disasters and Recovery
Somebody wrote:
> Jupiter's moons are nowhere near far enough
away for this. Radio waves
> travel at the speed of light. I'm not sure how far away jupiter is, but
> it's a lot less than 1 light year.
Ok, so we contact NASA and get them to launch a probe with solar escape
velocity, perhaps we can launch it straight "up" relative to the plane of
the ecliptic. This device has only one mission which is to act as a
regenerating receiver, regenerate the digital signal it receives, add new
ECC codes and resend it straight back where it came from. Every year the
"loop" would have the ability to carry more information. We would probably
want it to be nuclear powered as that would help with longevity.
--Chuck
11:08 a.m.
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1:27 p.m.
New subject: Disasters and Recovery
On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote:
Schematics. Source code. Drawings. Any other
available technical
info. _Printed_ on acid-free paper (hemp is best). From proper
Hemp? Dangerous suggestion for one of two reasons:
By that time pot (hemp) will either be so illegal that a) the gubment will
confiscate the paper as soon as its unearthed and burn it or b) some
futuristic pot-head capsule looters will raid it so they can smoke the
documentation.
Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.
Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 01/15/99]
4:50 p.m.
New subject: Disasters and Recovery
Sam Ismail wrote:
On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote:
Well, the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and the Bill
of Rights originals are made of hemp paper, as were most documents of
that era. Acid-treated wood-pulp as a paper source didn't become a
serious industry until this century, before then hemp was the main
material for paper production in this country. The plant is quite
versatile, and it's only lately that serious effort has been made to
maximize resin production - the resin was a minor byproduct of the
fiber, but with the acreage needed to grow fiber _and_ resin, the
effort lately among horticulturists has been to select for minimal
stalk (fiber) in favor of the resin-producing components. Evolution
in action, less acreage attracts less attention from those working on
the War on the Bill of Rights disguised as a War on Drugs.
If you think somebody will dig up an archive of computer documentation
to get high, try smoking a dollar bill. Yup, hemp fiber. No resin in
hemp fiber paper. (Then again, something like 75% of US currency will
give a positive in a test for cocaine due to the fact that for decades
cash has been used in the transactions and has been used as straws --
there's more than one reason for the new fathead bills).
--
Ward Griffiths <mailto:gram@cnct.com> <http://www.cnct.com/home/gram/>
WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.
Schematics. Source code. Drawings. Any other
available technical
info. _Printed_ on acid-free paper (hemp is best). From proper
Hemp? Dangerous suggestion for one of two reasons:
By that time pot (hemp) will either be so illegal that a) the gubment will
confiscate the paper as soon as its unearthed and burn it or b) some
futuristic pot-head capsule looters will raid it so they can smoke the
documentation.
19 Jan
19 Jan
7:53 a.m.
New subject: Disasters and Recovery
Well, the Declaration of Independence, the
Constitution, and the Bill
of Rights originals are made of hemp paper, as were most documents of
that era.
*snip*
Really? I always thought they were using rag paper at the time. Interesting.
--
Jim Strickland
jim(a)DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
5:08 p.m.
New subject: Disasters and Recovery
Jim Strickland wrote:
They were. Hemp fiber was one of the main fabric materials then, as
cotton was expensive to process before Eli Whitney and flax didn't
grow well in North America at the time (no, I don't know why) -- wool
then as now was rather expensive, sheep need lots of acreage.
--
Ward Griffiths <mailto:gram@cnct.com> <http://www.cnct.com/home/gram/>
WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.
Well, the Declaration of Independence, the
Constitution, and the Bill
of Rights originals are made of hemp paper, as were most documents of
that era.
*snip*
Really? I always thought they were using rag paper at the time. Interesting.
18 Jan
18 Jan
7:07 p.m.
New subject: Disasters and Recovery
If they do, they're in for disappointment. From what I've read, THC, the
active chemical in marajuana, is found primarily in the flowers and buds, not
in the stems from which useful fibers are extracted. Also, hemp raised for
fibers and not specifically for "recreational" use contains tiny amounts of
THC. I'm told you could smoke a bushel of rope grade cannibus and get no
noticable effect.
My understanding is the primary reason the US government has outlawed
hemp fiber is that it is the same *color* as cannibus destined to be smoked,
which makes satelite and aircraft sweeps with cameras sensative to that
specific color far less useful. It's idiotic, since hemp fiber could replace
wood and other fibers in many applications (such as paper) with a far lower
environmental cost.
And no, I don't smoke it, or anything else. My two experiences with cigarettes
convinced me I could find vices that hurt less. Like collecting old computers
:)
b) some
futuristic pot-head capsule looters will raid it so they can smoke the
documentation.
--
Jim Strickland
jim(a)DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
10:19 a.m.
New subject: Disasters and Recovery
Tony Duell wrote:
Depending on relative positions in orbit, round-trip time never gets
to be more than about 45 minutes. And there would have to be some
equipment running to receive and retransmit, signal loss after
bouncing is severe, even if lasers were used, let alone long waves
like radio.
--
Ward Griffiths <mailto:gram@cnct.com> <http://www.cnct.com/home/gram/>
WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.
How about we start sending all our precious data
into space via radio
waves towards some big celestial body (like one of Jupiter's moons) so
that in X years it will bounce back and we can then retrieve it
Jupiter's moons are nowhere near far enough away for this. Radio waves
travel at the speed of light. I'm not sure how far away jupiter is, but
it's a lot less than 1 light year.
17 Jan
17 Jan
3:23 p.m.
New subject: Disasters and Recovery
Tony wrote:
I doubt if any semiconductor memory, even
mask-programmed ROMs, will last
100 years.
Masked ROMs, particularly older (lower-density) ones, might have a reasonable
chance. Most, but not all, of the electromigration occurs when the part is
under bias.
Note that the old nichrome fusible-link PROMs suffer from regrowth. I'm
not sure whether the slightly newer titanium-tungsten PROMs have this problem
as bad. A friend has reconstructed PROM contents by optical inspection. The
regrowth is visually distinctive from original unblown fuses. I speculate
that data might also be recoverable by programming the part; regrown fuses
shouldn't take as much current to blow as unblown fuses.
There are reliable electronic stores. Braided wire ROM
is one of them.
But none of them are high-density, or are anything like the typical
memories of 1999.
I wonder how well the HP 9100 calculator will hold up? It uses wire braid
ROM for its microinstruction decoder, and PCB memory for its control store.
How long will a CRT hold a usable vacuum?
3:40 p.m.
New subject: Disasters and Recovery
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18 Jan
18 Jan
4:57 a.m.
New subject: Disasters and Recovery
At 01:08 PM 1/17/99 -0800, Chuck McManis wrote:
One of the reasons I want to have a completely
spec'd Pentium class
computer is to create an archive that will survive a reasonable amount of
time (100 years in a time capsule)
Don't you think that another 100 years of hackers will create a computer-
assisted simulation of old-timey computing? Today's emulators are great;
tomorrow's will include more and more. Sure, having the original hardware
would be fun, but I fully expect that the equivalent of tomorrow's CCC
list-members will be able to experience computing in 1999 terms, if
they desire.
- John
10:53 a.m.
New subject: Disasters and Recovery
John Foust wrote:
At 01:08 PM 1/17/99 -0800, Chuck McManis wrote:
Hmm. A Linux emulator (probably running under several other layers of
emulation) running xtrs. I can dig it.
--
Ward Griffiths <mailto:gram@cnct.com> <http://www.cnct.com/home/gram/>
WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.
One of the reasons I want to have a completely
spec'd Pentium class
computer is to create an archive that will survive a reasonable amount of
time (100 years in a time capsule)
Don't you think that another 100 years of hackers will create a computer-
assisted simulation of old-timey computing? Today's emulators are great;
tomorrow's will include more and more. Sure, having the original hardware
would be fun, but I fully expect that the equivalent of tomorrow's CCC
list-members will be able to experience computing in 1999 terms, if
they desire.
17 Jan
17 Jan
4:41 p.m.
New subject: Old Radios posting - anyone with contact?
Andrew,
Old radios are OT but related and there's a lot of radio, calculator,
computer "deals" coming out of Russia these days so please keep us posted.
Joe
At 07:44 AM 1/18/99 +1100, you wrote:
Would anyone who has had any contact with the Russian
people who recently
listed "Old Radios" for sale on this list please contact me privately
(adavie(a)mad.scientist.com). I wish to ask a few questions regarding
communications you have received from them.
I'm now highly suspicious of these people.
A
--
adavie(a)mad.scientist.com <mailto:adavie@mad.scientist.com>
visit the Museum of Soviet Calculators at
<http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/slide/calculator/soviet.html>
http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/slide/calculator/soviet.html
?
9320
days inactive
9325
days old
84 comments
26 participants
participants (26)
-
adavie＠mad.scientist.com -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
brett＠xnet.com -
bsa3＠cornell.edu -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
cmcmanis＠freegate.com -
cmcmanis＠mcmanis.com -
dastar＠ncal.verio.com -
donm＠cts.com -
doug＠blinkenlights.com -
dpeschel＠u.washington.edu -
erd＠infinet.com -
eric＠brouhaha.com -
foxvideo＠wincom.net -
geoffrob＠stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au -
gram＠cnct.com -
Hans.Franke＠mch20.sbs.de -
healyzh＠aracnet.com -
jfoust＠threedee.com -
jhfine＠idirect.com -
jim＠calico.litterbox.com -
kbd＠ndx.net -
Marty＠itgonline.com -
marvin＠rain.org -
rigdonj＠intellistar.net -
william＠ans.net