18 Jan
2022
18 Jan
'22
7:33 a.m.
https://i.imgur.com/48EfOQG.jpg
That's after sitting parked a couple months. I have a Dysan doing it too. The Dysan
had been re-banded with a boiled 3M band and run for years like that with no shedding. I
have another Dysan with a green Plastiband in it which is also fine, minimal/no shed. So,
I think we may need to re-evaluate if the clear Amazon cheap "plastibands" are
perhaps totally incompatible with tape.
I know, I know..."just use the band to get data off." But I want to *run* QICs
without having to destroy them constantly.
Thanks,
Jonathan
18 Jan
18 Jan
8:21 a.m.
On Jan 18, 2022, at 7:33 AM, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:
I know, I know..."just use the band to get data off." But I want to *run* QICs
without having to destroy them constantly.
As someone that has worked with computer tapes for nearly 40 years, I have to question the
sanity of this. These tapes are *HOW* old? What was their intended lifespan? While we
all like to keep our hardware as original as possible, does it really make sense to try to
run systems in this day and age with QIC tapes?
Can you emulate the tape device?
Zane
8:58 a.m.
As someone that has worked with computer tapes for
nearly 40 years, I have to question the sanity of this. These
tapes are *HOW* old?
What was their intended lifespan? While we all
like to keep our hardware as original as possible, does it really make
sense to try to run systems in this day and age with QIC tapes?
Well, you gotta use something to back up those ESDI drives.
I'm finding the TK50's and TK70's to be pretty good, the big massive
problem with them is those two pulleys having the grease dried up. Since
one of them runs the tape tachometer they need to spin freely and smoothly.
Count the turns on the top bolt as you remove it, take off the pulleys,
lubricate or replace the bearings, reassemble, good for another 20 years
or so.
QIC.... Yeah that's not going to work well. Times change.
10:09 a.m.
My opinion is that if you're trying to use DC
carts for archival
storage, you should have your (tape) head examined.
Not archival storage, just day-to-day operation on old stuff, like Sun3/Sun4, AT&T
UNIX PC, etc.
As someone that has worked with computer tapes for
nearly 40 years, I have to question the sanity of this. These
tapes are HOW old? What was their intended lifespan? While we all
like to keep our hardware as original as possible, does it really make
sense to try to run systems in this day and age with QIC tapes?
Works well enough for my needs :) I've got a small stack of QICs I use primarily with
the Suns, they are reliable enough. Again, we're not storing launch codes on these or
shooting them to the moon or something, I just want tape bands that don't destroy
tape.
Thanks,
Jonathan
10:15 a.m.
On 1/18/22 11:09 AM, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote:
Not archival storage, just day-to-day operation on old
stuff, like
Sun3/Sun4, AT&T UNIX PC, etc.
Okay. I can see that.
However, "couple (of) months" seems incongruent with "day-to-day".
I am assuming that the day-to-day operation to mean that the source data
is still accessible on the source system. As such, it's probably simply
a matter of annoyance when a QIC* fails and you must re-do the process
that was using it.
*Can I use /just/ QIC as a proper name or should I say /QIC/ /cartridge/
analogous to VIN number?
Works well enough for my needs :) I've got a small
stack of QICs I
use primarily with the Suns, they are reliable enough. Again, we're
not storing launch codes on these or shooting them to the moon or
something, I just want tape bands that don't destroy tape.
ACK
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
10:21 a.m.
However, "couple (of) months" seems
incongruent with "day-to-day".
I don't do a reinstall of SunOS every day, though!
I am assuming that the day-to-day operation to mean
that the source data
is still accessible on the source system. As such, it's probably simply
a matter of annoyance when a QIC* fails and you must re-do the process
that was using it.
Yeah, it's not like irreplaceable data is being lost. But when they fail, you have to
at least re-band another tape, and with this stuff pulling oxide off, probably clean the
drive too. And of course write a new tape out.
*Can I use /just/ QIC as a proper name or should I say
/QIC/ /cartridge/
analogous to VIN number?
"Tape" is I think what most people call them :P
Thanks,
Jonathan
10:40 a.m.
On 1/18/22 11:21 AM, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote:
I don't do a reinstall of SunOS every day, though!
Fair enough.
If I had a process where something might fail in between uses, I'd
augment the process to re-write the image to a (new instance of) tape
before I try to use it.
Yeah, it's not like irreplaceable data is being
lost. But when they
fail, you have to at least re-band another tape, and with this stuff
pulling oxide off, probably clean the drive too. And of course write
a new tape out.
I get that.
I was actually thinking of something more dastardly like a process that
generates data as a one and done. As such the entire process that
generates the data needs to be re-done. Extrapolate backwards /after/
doing the physical tape maintenance.
"Tape" is I think what most people call them
:P
Ya. But "tape" is not descriptive in my opinion, especially when you
have other types of tape; DLT, DAT, 9-track, etc. ;-)
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
11:38 a.m.
On Jan 18, 2022, at 10:09 AM, Jonathan Chapman via
cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Can you do tape operations over TCP/IP to a machine with a better drive, or a VTL? On
VMS, the last tape backups I did on a physical box, were to a virtual tape drive on a
SIMH/VAX system.
Zane
My opinion is that if you're trying to use DC
carts for archival
storage, you should have your (tape) head examined.
Not archival storage, just day-to-day operation on old stuff, like Sun3/Sun4, AT&T
UNIX PC, etc. 
12:11 p.m.
On 1/18/22 11:38, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
If this is a SCSI QIC drive, I'd suggest moving to DLT, 8mm or even DDS.
None of these suffer from the "broken bad" problem. SCSI tape drives
as a class, are pretty much interchangeable as there's an ANSI spec for
the command set.
If it's a QIC-02 interface, you might want to look into emulation using
an MCU. QIC-02 interface is stupid simple and any moderately capable
MCU should be able to generate the required signals. You can probably
fit the contents of every QIC tape that you own on a single SD card.
QIC-36 is going to be a bit more difficult, but there were (and maybe
still are) QIC-36-to-QIC-02 bridge boards around.
My .02 for whatever its depreciated value is worth.
--Chuck
On Jan 18, 2022, at 10:09 AM, Jonathan Chapman
via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Can you do tape operations over TCP/IP to a machine with a better drive, or a VTL? On
VMS, the last tape backups I did on a physical box, were to a virtual tape drive on a
SIMH/VAX system. My opinion is that if you're trying to use DC
carts for archival
storage, you should have your (tape) head examined.
Not archival storage, just day-to-day operation on old stuff, like Sun3/Sun4, AT&T
UNIX PC, etc.
11:34 a.m.
On Jan 18, 2022, at 8:58 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:
I?m also not using MFM or ESDI drives. I converted my Q-Bus HW to SCSI 20+ years ago.
When I get it back up and running, I plan to convert it to SCSI2SD. OTOH, I am trying,
for some insane reason to get a DSSI system going. I started converting my SCSI based DEC
HW to SCSI2SD last summer.
Having said that, that?s good news on the TK50?s and TK70?s, I have a couple boxes in my
office (so somewhat nicely stored) that I need to read, in my nonexistent free time. My
plan has been to buy a refurbished SBB that will read them. I?m more likely to trust the
TK50 in my PDP-11 than the 4mm DAT.
I?ve read 30 year old 9-track tapes on production hardware, and I?ve read very old TK50?s
(as well as other DLT-style tapes). Things like QIC, 8mm, and 4mm, I try my best to avoid
on production systems.
Zane
As someone that has worked with computer tapes
for nearly 40 years, I have to question the sanity of this. These
tapes are *HOW*
old? What was their intended lifespan? While we all like to keep our hardware as
original as possible, does it really make sense to try to run systems in this day and age
with QIC tapes?
Well, you gotta use something to back up those ESDI drives.
I'm finding the TK50's and TK70's to be pretty good, the big massive problem
with them is those two pulleys having the grease dried up. Since one of them runs the tape
tachometer they need to spin freely and smoothly.
Count the turns on the top bolt as you remove it, take off the pulleys, lubricate or
replace the bearings, reassemble, good for another 20 years or so.
QIC.... Yeah that's not going to work well. Times change.
8:22 a.m.
On 1/18/22 07:33, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote:
https://i.imgur.com/48EfOQG.jpg
That's after sitting parked a couple months. I have a Dysan doing it too. The Dysan
had been re-banded with a boiled 3M band and run for years like that with no shedding. I
have another Dysan with a green Plastiband in it which is also fine, minimal/no shed. So,
I think we may need to re-evaluate if the clear Amazon cheap "plastibands" are
perhaps totally incompatible with tape.
I know, I know..."just use the band to get data off." But I want to *run* QICs
without having to destroy them constantly.
Big difference here--Al and I are interested in getting the stuff off
and tossing the cart afterwards. You should be warned that Plastibands
do deteriorate after a year or so--I have a package of them that cannot
be stretched without breaking.
And I've got factory 3M carts with the original bands where the same
thing has happened--it's just harder to see.
To be clear (no pun intended), I wipe the clear ones down with
isopropanol before installing.
Regardless, they're all TPU.
P.S. If you're interested in fun, try re-banding a TR-7 cart successfully.
My opinion is that if you're trying to use DC carts for archival
storage, you should have your (tape) head examined. It's an old, cheap
(for the time) medium with a fatal design flaw.
--Chuck
10:32 p.m.
On 1/18/22 8:22 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
You should be warned that Plastibands
do deteriorate after a year or so--I have a package of them that cannot
be stretched without breaking.
Do you keep them in sealed bags? I keep mine in a zip-lock and the ones
that I got a couple years ago stretch just fine. (I checked after I saw
this.)
19 Jan
19 Jan
7:46 a.m.
On 1/18/22 22:32, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote:
On 1/18/22 8:22 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
No, I didn't--I did keep them in a dark, cool place, however. Now, I
keep bands in my freezer.
--Chuck
You should be warned that Plastibands
do deteriorate after a year or so--I have a package of them that cannot
be stretched without breaking.
Do you keep them in sealed bags? I keep mine in a zip-lock and the ones
that I got a couple years ago stretch just fine. (I checked after I saw
this.)
7:48 a.m.
Just as a follow-up, I retensioned and read both tapes with clear bands this morning, and
they're fine. Since they were parked, there shouldn't have been anything important
there, and it looks like the removed oxide is staying on the band.
Thanks,
Jonathan
??????? Original Message ???????
On Wednesday, January 19th, 2022 at 10:46, Chuck Guzis via cctalk <cctalk at
classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 1/18/22 22:32, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote:
On 1/18/22 8:22 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk
wrote:
No, I didn't--I did keep them in a dark, cool place, however. Now, I
keep bands in my freezer.
--Chuck You should be warned that Plastibands
do deteriorate after a year or so--I have a package of them that cannot
be stretched without breaking.
Do you keep them in sealed bags? I keep mine in a zip-lock and the ones
that I got a couple years ago stretch just fine. (I checked after I saw
this.) 
20 Jan
20 Jan
12:21 a.m.
On Wed, 19 Jan 2022, Jonathan Chapman wrote:
Just as a follow-up, I retensioned and read both tapes
with clear bands
this morning, and they're fine. Since they were parked, there shouldn't
have been anything important there, and it looks like the removed oxide
is staying on the band.
What bands did you use/buy? I ask because the Baumgartens Plastibands
aren't available in the required size (as if they are not produced any
more).
Christian
9:11 a.m.
On Jan 20, 2022, at 00:23, Christian Corti via cctech
<cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote:
?On Wed, 19 Jan 2022, Jonathan Chapman wrote:
I bought the assorted sizes pack (SF-7000, I think). Each pack had maybe 10 of the green
ones I use in QIC tape carts, so I bought multiple packs and put the rest of the bands
into household use.
alan
Just as a follow-up, I retensioned and read both
tapes with clear bands this morning, and they're fine. Since they were parked, there
shouldn't have been anything important there, and it looks like the removed oxide is
staying on the band.
What bands did you use/buy? I ask because the Baumgartens Plastibands aren't
available in the required size (as if they are not produced any more).
21 Jan
21 Jan
12:58 a.m.
On Thu, 20 Jan 2022, it was written
Well, both the SF-7000 as well as the SF-6500 (the size for QIC
cartridges) are de facto unavailable/out of stock/whatever.
The only alternative that I could find are the Mobilon Bands from
Nisshinbo. But same story, I can't order them, there is no store that I
could do that.
Christian
On Jan 20,
2022, at 00:23, Christian Corti via cctech
<cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: What bands did you use/buy? I ask
because the Baumgartens Plastibands aren't available in the required
size (as if they are not produced any more).
I bought the assorted sizes pack
(SF-7000, I think). Each pack had maybe
10 of the green ones I use in QIC tape carts, so I bought multiple packs
and put the rest of the bands into household use. 
6:09 a.m.
Well, both the SF-7000 as well as the SF-6500 (the size for QIC
cartridges) are de facto unavailable/out of stock/whatever.
The only alternative that I could find are the Mobilon Bands from
Nisshinbo. But same story, I can't order them, there is no store that I
could do that.
Have you tried Misumi? The only problem I had was that you have to be VAT
registered. I had a friend order for me.
https://us.misumi-ec.com/vona2/detail/223000860382/
I used the 150 mm / 6mm variety and as far as I can tell it works nicely. I
have been running a tape in a Tektronix 4051 for some time and haven seen
any shedding. Not daily exactly but 20 times over half a year.
/Mattis
Christian
9:54 a.m.
Have you tried Misumi? The only problem I had was
that you have to be
VAT
registered. I had a friend order for me.
https://us.misumi-ec.com/vona2/detail/223000860382/
I used the 150 mm / 6mm variety and as far as I can tell it works
nicely. I
have been running a tape in a Tektronix 4051 for some time and haven
seen
any shedding. Not daily exactly but 20 times over half a year.
I second the Misumi brand. I haven't seen any of the issues mentioned on this thread
with those bands. Of course I am only a hobbyist so not putting them through any crazy
paces. I mainly use them for the 5100 and 5110. They are significantly more expensive then
the Amazon mix bag ones but may be worth it.
-Ali
18 Jan
18 Jan
9:58 a.m.
On 1/18/22 8:33 AM, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote:
Ouch!
With my luck, that would have been the index / start of tape marker
rendering the rest of the tape mostly unusable.
That's after sitting parked a couple months.
Um .... I would naively think that would invalidate any test / concern
unless it was specifically for the problem that you're describing.
I have a Dysan doing it too. The Dysan had been
re-banded with a boiled
3M band and run for years like that with no shedding.
Is that belt or tape media? I (mis)took it to be tape media.
I have another Dysan with a green Plastiband in it
which is also fine,
minimal/no shed. So, I think we may need to re-evaluate if the clear
Amazon cheap "plastibands" are perhaps totally incompatible with tape.
My naive understanding was that they were Good Enough? to get data off
of the tape as in one (or a few) last hurrah(s) for data recovery.
(Comparing multiple reads.)
I know, I know..."just use the band to get data
off." But I want to
*run* QICs without having to destroy them constantly.
I wince at the idea of running with QIC tape. But my experience is with
QIC-80 tapes of the '90s which were so unreliable as to be in the same
category as AOL floppy disks during the late '90s around the transition
to CD-ROMs. As in I would trust an AOL floppy disk to better hold my
data for a week than I would a QIC-80 tape to hold data for a month,
much less a year. ...and I didn't even trust an AOL floppy to go from
computer to computer for 5 minutes. -- Talk about a race to the bottom
for quality.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
1017
days inactive
1021
days old
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