Rumor has it that Steven Hirsch may have mentioned these words: Weren't the 19-pin D-sub connectors also used on the Atari Falcon for their video? And what "size letters" would they have? Remember: DA-15 DB-25 DE-9, and also HDE-15 (PC-VGA) ... That I remember for sure... and here's the "I think": DC-37 (old floppy drive connector) So would the 19-pin be DF-19 and the 23-pin be DG-23? Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!"

Rumor has it that Chuck Guzis may have mentioned these words: My only ST box (currently) is the 1040STF, so it has an internal floppy drive. Therefore, I've never paid attention to that connector. Never had a HD either... ;-) ... But the video connector is a 13-pin DIN which can be had from Mouser now, and might be stocked at Digi-Key. I have a few males & females of that connector ready & willing (whenever I get a round tuit, which won't be for a little while at least, as it's not high priority for me[1]) to design a converter cable to go from the Atari SC1224 monitor to a Tandy CoCo3 RGB port. AFAIK, they're compatible except the connectors, so it's just matching pins. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger [1] The reason the cable's not a high priority is I have both Roy Justus's's's's ;-) CoCo3->VGA adapter, and Chris Hawks's's's CoCo3->SVideo adapter... so I can use both an LCD monitor & my 27" Sony Wega tele as monitors now. -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com What do you do when Life gives you lemons, and you don't *like* lemonade?????????????

Hi, The silly thing though, is, that the original Atari ST hard drive (the SH-204) was just such an arrangement! I forget the make of the SCSI-MFM controller card, but it was a pretty common one back then (Future Domain?) and had a little interface converter board attached to it's SCSI connector to allow it to speak ASCI.... The obvious question is WTF didn't they just put "normal" SCSI on the ST? Never could figure that one out, but then again this is Atari we're talking about...? :-) TTFN - Pete.

Rumor has it that Chuck Guzis may have mentioned these words: The *original* Atari 400? You must be joking, right? I had *microwave ovens* with better keyboards than a 400! ;-) About the only worse keyboards I can think of was either on the original Timex Sinclair 1000, or possibly Tandy's MC-10. For keyboards, I'd put it "middle of the road." It was better than the chicklet keyboards of the CoCo1, prolly equalish (to maybe "barely better") than the "not quite full travel" keyboard of the CoCo2, but not as nice as the CoCo3 keyboards... and (obviously) no comparison whatsoever to the my IBM Model M or the keyboard on my Tandy 200 lappytop. But to pay $600 base (still about a grand, nicely equipped, IIRC) for a computer that could spank a $2500 Mac... you'd need to make a few sacrifices. I would have to say that IMHO, with the angled function buttons & sleek lines, it was the most artistic (read: kewl) keyboard of the era... not that it helps functionality at all... ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com |

I'm having dffficulty understnading that. The CoCo 3 keyboard has a few more keeys that the CoCo 2 one, but was otherwise the same mechanism, plastic plungers over a membrane contact assembly, backed with a metal plate. I wa puzzled as to why you feel the CoCo 3 had a much better keyboard than the 2. Very little comes close to those :-) -tony

On 28 Sep 2007 at 17:40, Geoff Reed wrote: Yup. That be the one--subject of at least one YouTube video. Cheers, Chuck

Is that the version in a larger case, like a CoCo 1 case, but white? I read about those, but I've never seen one (they are not common in the UK at all). All my CoCo 2s are in the later case (same size as a CoCo 3) -tony

Ah, right... I assume all CoCo1s had the older design of processor board with things like discrete resistors for the DAC, while all CoCo 2's had the 2 ASICs, one contianing the DAC, analogue mux, comparator, etc, the other containing the cassette relay driver, 5V regulator controller and RS232 level shifters. OK... I got into the CoCo relatively late, when they were being sold off by Tandy over here. All the machines I saw were late CoCo 2s... I liked them so much (6809 processor and OS-9) that I ended up buying a CoCo3 So I've proably only seen the later keyboards. -tonuy

Not that I am aware of, although third party keyboards were a popular upgrade at the time. I saw all kinds of ads for them in Rainbow. So, it might be a third party upgrade. If it's an authentic part, then it's always possible that someone pieced together the machine from other systems. I don't recall if the CoCo 3 keyboard pinout will match a CoCo 1, but it's possible. I also seem to remember hacks people did, adding extra switches manually to the matrix to add extra keys to the CoCo. -Ian

Rumor has it that Tony Duell may have mentioned these words: Four, to be exact. Ctrl, Alt, F1, & F2. There were differences in the earlier CoCo2 keyboards from the CoCo3 - the keys weren't full travel & didn't have as "positive" of a feel for lack of a better way to put it.... and the keys were a little more "flat & squarish" - rather a hybrid between the Chicklet CoCo1 keyboard & the CoCo3. Also, having the cursor keys in one area in a '+' configuration made spreadsheet navigation much easier, IMHO... not to mention when switching between a CoCo3 keyboard, a Tandy 200 keyboard & an IBM keyboard, it required less "mental reprogramming" in my case. ;-) Which is why I still rely solely on those keyboards... well, except for my PC compatible laptops (of which I now have two for work).... but I do have a USB->PS2 dongle, so I can still use my Model 'M's on my laptops when I have "real typing" to do. ;-) I haven't found a laptop keyboard that I can type faster on than my Tandy 200. My Tandy 600 comes close (but I'd hardly call it a laptop - my legs go numb after <20 minutes on my lap) and I've used the IBM "Butterfly" keyboard which was the nicest _PC_ laptop keyboard I've used... but my max on that was still about 85wpm. (compare that to 65wpm on my Fujitsu PC, and 110wpm on my Tandy 200 keyboard.) =-=-= googling =-=-= It seems later (white-case) CoCo1 computers and early CoCo2 computers came with what I would dub the "half-chicklet" keyboard - there is a low-resolution picture here: http://www.nausicaa.net/~lgreenf/cocopage.htm Scroll down a bit to the pictures of the different versions of CoCos, and you'll see it on the right-hand side above the caption: "The original TRS-80 Color Computer (Later version)" - that machine has the "inbetween" keyboard that my early CoCo2 came with. The CoCo3 keyboard was much improved over that one. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com |

ASCI was a nice implementation of drive connect, what was really nice was the devices would automatically be assigned a device# on the bus, no jumpers, switches or SCSI address settings... The ST and the XE keyboards were horrific!!! Mushy, crappy feel - horrible. Best Electronics has an upgrade kit for the keyboards with stronger springs for better tactile feel - www.best-electronics-ca.com They and B&C Atari Sales - www.myatari.com are two original companies that still to this day sell exclusively Atari items, many NOS items. The Atari 1200XL had THE BEST keyboard for look, feel and layout of all of the Atari computers IMHO Curt Ensor wrote:

On 30/10/07 05:47, "Ensor" <classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk> wrote: It's the same as early 800XLs only it appears to have better feel. I got a 1200XL many moons ago for not much because it had 'dodgy video' but it certainly works over here so I'm not complaining :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection?

On 29/10/07 02:32, "Ensor" <classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk> wrote: I didn't get hold of a 400 until a couple of years ago and I was really surprised at how good it was for a membrane keyboard compared to the ZX81. Whether this was down to the key spacing, the raised edge round each key or the general sensitivity I haven't sat down and worked out yet :) My second 400 came with a real keyboard, much better! Now there's a thing. The ST/XE keyboard is a horrible rubber-based mashy thing with awful feedback whereas both MegaST keyboards I have are proper spring-based switch keyboards that I can easily touch type on and actually enjoy using. Was there 2 different types of MegaST keyboard? I can't comment on the ST Mac emulators since I've only ever seen one (sure it had 'magic' in the name though) many years ago and the bloke who had it wouldn't sell it to me, bah. Cheers, -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection?

Hi, LOL, that brings back memories. I had the software only PC emulator, again I forget the name of it after all these years, but it emulated an XT with CGA passably well. That was where the rot set in, LOL. Before long, the wealth of MS-Dos stuff available via BBSs spurred me on to get a Tandy 1400LT, then I built an XT.... I still have fond memories of the ST, it was the last "current" system for which I did any real programming. TTFN - Pete.

On 30/10/07 06:45, "Ensor" <classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk> wrote: Sort of :) At the time I was only ever aware of the flat 400 and the nice 800 but couldn't afford either. When I got my paws on the 2nd machine with 'real' keyboard I was surprised: http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/scripts/picshow.php?image=atari400close.jpg &folder=/Museum/Atari&back=/Museum/Atari/atari400.php If anyone could shed light as to which keyboard this is I'd be grateful. I'm going to have to dig out my floppy-less 520 now! Could be, as I have both the 2mb and 4mb machines. IIRC the TT030 we have at Bletchley Park seems to have a mushier keyboard than the MegaST so quality could well have become an issue. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection?

Tramiel was using Vic-20 mentality towards a next generation computer - the whole all in one cases which I never liked - the Amiga's pedestal with detachable keyboard looked soooooooo much nicer (Atari would come out with the Mega ST in 1987 which was a nice pizza box design, that grey was just blah...) Atari had a lot of well established connections for good quality keyboards, tactile input for the keys and for the mouse (that horrible little wedge shape that they never improves) are paramount importance... In fact right now I'm typing on a newly released Dell keyboard for a Vostro Dual Core I upgraded to this week, the keyboard is too light and slides around a bit, but the keys have an almost hollow tactile feel to them and for the last 2 days I've been making typos galore and its driving me nuts, so this keybaord is being pulled tonight and I'm going back to my nice heavy, solid feeling IBM Thinkcentre keyboard which I have been using since 1999 and I'm putting back tonight. Some things you just don't skimp on, no matter what, a keyboard especially whether its a 22 year old ST or a brand new Wintel box. Curt Chuck Guzis wrote:

It was thus said that the Great David Griffith once stated: Same here. In fact, I use them on newer Macs as well (using a PS/2->USB converter). -spc (have yet to wear out an IBM Model M keyboard ... )

Surely the simple thing to do is to take an ordinary one and grind down its outer surface? (Admittedly, this is easier with a lathe, or at least a variable-speed drill, that can hold it by the handle, but it's hardly impossible with nothing but a bench grinder.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

On Tuesday 30 October 2007 18:03, David Griffith wrote: If you're talking about those hex-head screws, my answer is simple: Snap-On Tools! :-) I just pulled a 5.5mm nutdriver out of my toolbox, and it fits the screw head quite nicely, and that's one of the recessed ones. They use a better grade of steel, and tend to be thinner for any given size. One of the reasons I like 'em, the no-hassle warranty being another one... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin

On Tuesday 30 October 2007 22:04, Fred Cisin wrote: The one I pulled and tried first was a 5.5mm, which seemed to fit pretty well, but I have both, if I need 'em. My "stuff" in terms of nut drivers, sockets and deep sockets in 1/4" drive, and also small combination wrenches goes all the way down to 1/8" and 4mm. :-) Sears has given me a hard time more often than not in recent times, and although I'll go there and buy tools it's not my first choice, if I have a choice in the circumstances. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin

Fred Cisin wrote: It's probably 7/32", but I opened mine with a 5.5mm nut-driver that I bought in a model shop (the sort of place where they sell radio-controlled planes, model trains and R/C cars). It's much easier to find the metric ones here (England) than the imperial sizes. -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk

On Tuesday 30 October 2007 22:04, Fred Cisin wrote: Pretty much all screws in IBM equipment are metric sized. Just remember 5.5, 8, 10, and 13mm, and you'll be able to remove most screws in IBM equipment that aren't flat-blade-only. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org

OK Who knows WHEN they switched? On Wed, 31 Oct 2007, Roy J. Tellason wrote: Rather than throw them away, there are uses for them, and people who would like them. 25 years ago, a friend was managing a computer lab for faculty. Tamper-proof torx was the solution to get them to ASK before "borrowing" boards and drives from machines. For $6, you can have a fairly complete selection for emergencies. http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=91310 Quality is low, so any that you actually end up using should be replaced with medium to good quality ones. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com

Even in PC stuff? I am pretty sure the case screws on a PC, XT or AT are 1/4", and the scrrews on the PCB connector brackets are 3/16". -tony

On Wed, 31 Oct 2007, Tony Duell wrote: "Tamper-proof" is NOT "ARD-proof". Maybe it's just a "test". "Only those who can get past it can be trusted inside"? My TRS80s had a bigger problem, trying to come up with the right color and consistency of "Glyptol"? to keep them "on warranty" after adding additional circuitry.

On Wed, 31 Oct 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: with some practice, they can usually be taken out by "tangential impact" with a very small, very hard chisel. Best examples are automotive, so for Jay, I'll leave it at that.

On Thu, 1 Nov 2007, Tony Duell wrote: a left handed drillbit is significantly better than a conventional one, since it will be tending towards loosening, not tightening. yes. But it is applied to only a few varieties Removing a broken easy-out is a lot more fun. There are special fluted tools for trying to remove broken taps, but not for easy-outs. Snap-on makes a good quality broken bolt extractor that is specifically designed so that WHEN it breaks, it leaves enough sticking out to grab with 5WR Vise-grips. I have used a type of easy-out with straight flutes (instead of left-hand thread), that can be used for left handed broken bolts. I can't recall DELIBERATE shear-head bolts in computers, but I have removed broken bolts, and even a broken easy-out, from Hitype I printers. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com

On 1 Nov 2007 at 22:36, Tony Duell wrote: Easy-outs, like tap extractors are perfect examples of oxymorons. I've never found an Easy-out that will remove a really stuck sheared- off bolt, nor have I found a tap extractor that will remove a broken tap. I've come to the conclusion that most people who have success with tap extractors buy really cheap taps that break if you look at them crosseyed. A good tap, when it breaks is impossible to remove with a tap extractor. A very slick way to remove a steel bolt or tap that's sheared off in an aluminum casting (e.g. a hard disk body) is to use nitric acid and a little heat--the acid doesn't bother the aluminum but eats enough of the steel to loosen it for removal. I've heard that alum (I don't know what sort, probably amonium) also works. Cheers, Chuck

Yes...but everyone makes mistakes occasionally. (Which is why tap extractors find a market, I daresay.) I've broken tools like drill bits and taps now and then. Most of them are things like my grip slipping or some such - where I knew what to do and was trying to do it, but Something Went Wrong - but there have been a few cases that were pure brain fade.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

On 3 Nov 2007 at 22:18, Tony Duell wrote: Small Parts (http://www.smallparts.com) here sells metric taps and dies in sets of the same size down to M1.0. I suspect that the same can be gotten from McMaster-Carr in the US and from many places in the UK. Strangely, I've found it easier to find oddball tools in the UK than in the USA. Much below 2mm, my hands and eyes just aren't steady enough to trust, even with the aid of a loupe so I can see. For larger sizes, I use a drill press or lathe to hold the tap or die when possible on the securely-clamped workpiece. It's just too easy to apply side forces or have the workpiece slip with a hand wrench. Solid carbide drills are the things that snap on me. They cut small holes very clean and fast, but they're very brittle. I've broken them simply by inserting them into the drill chuck. Frame saw blades I buy by the hundred--anything less is just silly. Cheers, Chuck

On 3 Nov 2007 at 18:28, woodelf wrote: I'm talking about the jeweler's frame saw. Like so: http://www.widgetsupply.com/page/WS/PROD/jeweler-saw/BET13 Note that the blades are sold by the gross. Basically, they're good for about one, maybe two metal cuts. Cheers, Chuck

I've not found any such suppliers in the UK, but I will admit I've not done a serious search yet. Most modenl enginners over here use BA threads. BA taps/dies down to 12BA are easy to get (if expensive!), I've seen 14BA ad 16BA That's what I do. Put the tap in the tailstock chuck (with the tailstock free to slide) and turn the mandrel round by hand. This also gets the tap running straight down the hole -- tapping 'at an angle' is another cause of broken taps, of course. I tend to only use the hand tap wrence for recutting threads or using the second-cut or plug taps. -tony

And thusly were the wise words spake by Tony Duell wot?! You don't just punch through it with the screwdriver? ;) Cheers, Bryan

On Thu, 1 Nov 2007, Tony Duell wrote: I wanted to try the "buffered" expansion interface retrofit. So, I resealed the machines, (which had lower-case, a few additional keys, software controlled reverse video, and "RCA" jacks for composite almost-NTSC). Because it was "sealed", the RS tech was quite willing to do the warranty work, even with the "boat in a bottle" additional circuitry, on the condition that I supply him with full documentation of what mods I had done.

David Griffith wrote: Seconded. The Model M13 (the one with the trackpoint in the middle) is currently my pride and joy, since it lets me switch to it when my mousing/trackballing hand starts to get numb/tingly and keep working (within reason, of course). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/

Hi, That's appears to be the "other" replacement keyboard I recall seeing back in the day, though I don't remember who made it. It certainly looks like it's got the "full travel" keys. I'm tempted to see if I can get my Mega1 back from the friend I sold it to. He mentioned recently that he hadn't used it for years.... The more I think about it now, the more ISTR being surprised at how "cheap" the keyboard seemed when I unpacked it (unlike the rest of the machine). TTFN - Pete.

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007, Roger Merchberger wrote: DB-19 and DB-23 --