19 Sep
2004
19 Sep
'04
6:04 p.m.
If the floppy disk disappeared, I would notice (I use them) but would
not care. It is also unfair to say the floppy disk is disappearing
when CD-ROMs/CD-Rs/CD-RWs are serving similar purposes: to distribute
and install software, to exchange data between machines or people, and
to backup data. The main difference is the technology.
Besides, floppy diskettes are not as uniform as the article implies.
They seem to suggest that there are two sizes, then leave it at that.
Well, there were different densities and encodings too. Oh, and there
were more than two physical sizes. (IIRC, 8" and 12" was common.
Then there is all of the similar-but-failed technologies.) I couldn't
care less if they disappeared, because all of those different formats
make it next to impossible to transfer data between different
computers.
Now if you were to say that the serial port is disappearing ... well
then I would be concerned.
19 Sep
19 Sep
7:22 p.m.
On Sun, Sep 19, 2004 at 11:04:59PM -0400, Ronald Wayne wrote:
If the floppy disk disappeared, I would notice (I use
them) but would
not care.
I recently put together a semi-modern system (AMD Socket A, 1.4GHz,
768MB max RAM, 1 AGP, 5 PCI, 0 ISA) and some combination of the BIOS
and Win98 was unhappy. I had numerous issues of timeouts and slow
operation because it was waiting on a non-existent A: drive. Simply
disabling floppies in the BIOS was not adequate. My problems ended
when I _added_ a 3.5" drive and enabled it. I know there are other
systems that can run normally with no floppies, so I'm reluctant to
blame the operating system only.
With the exception of BIOS updates and low-level hard disk diagnostics
(which can be done from CD-ROM anyway, now), I don't use one floppy per
year for data transfer on post-classic machines. The capacity is too
small for too many things.
Besides, floppy diskettes are not as uniform as the
article implies.
They seem to suggest that there are two sizes, then leave it at that.
That's quite true. The authors (and most of the readers) think that
there are only 3.5" disks and this ancient format on 5.25".
Well, there were different densities and encodings
too. Oh, and there
were more than two physical sizes. (IIRC, 8" and 12" was common.
Then there is all of the similar-but-failed technologies.)
I have plenty of 8" drives and media, mostly for RX01 and RX02, but
a smattering of CP/M disks, too. I don't happen to own any 3" disks,
but I know they exist. Never seen or heard of 12" floppies. The
oldest devices I know about are mid-1970s, the ones used to load
IBM mainframe microcode. I thought those were 8".
Now if you were to say that the serial port is
disappearing ... well
then I would be concerned.
The serial port _is_ disappearing. I am concerned. I have a number of
serial-interfaces devices, and from what I've seen in the LCDproc
user/developer community as well as the CBM-interface-devices-of-modern-
manufacture like the C2N232 (Atmel processor that emulates CBM tape
protocol on one end, RS-232 on the other), USB-to-serial dongles are
_not_ a seamless solution. The two arenas this is cropping up are
modern Macs and modern laptops. While these devices are not covered
under the 10-year umbrella, they will be at some point, and when they
are, they will _not_ have native serial ports and there will be many
things that we do with ease now, with 5-year-old machines that we be
hard five years from now.
I lament the passing of the RS-232 port much more than the passing of
floppies. I can continue to do many interesting things with a PDP-8
and its RX01/RX02 drives _and_ a modernish machine as the console that
may or may not be easy with a USB-only machine in the future.
ObFolklore: working at a small startup in 2000, I had to reconfigure
our Cisco router. Normally, that entails dragging a laptop in the
server closet, balancing it on something and trying to juggle commands
and a laptop at the same time. Once, I whipped out my Palm III, its
travel cable, and a Cisco RJ-45 serial cable and fired up one of the
many VT100 emulators for PalmOS. My boss, the CIO, walked in while I
was doing all of this. He asked why I had a Palm Pilot hooked to the
router - I told him I was reconfiguring the router, per his request.
He was stunned at my approach, but this is the same guy who was stunned
when I loaded a DEC diagnostic papertape for my -8/L with a printed
date on the label that was before he was born.
ISTR that all the newer generation PDAs have USB, not serial, sync
ports. I have no idea if it's possible to use an adapter on them
to use them for portable terminals, etc., but I don't think so.
-ethan
--
Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 20-Sep-2004 04:00 Z
South Pole Station
PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -85.5 F (-65.4 C) Windchill -117.8 F (-83.2 C)
APO AP 96598 Wind 6.6 kts Grid 080 Barometer 688.1 mb (10321. ft)
Ethan.Dicks(a)amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html
7:44 p.m.
Rumor has it that Ethan Dicks may have mentioned these words:
That's quite true. The authors (and most of the
readers) think that
there are only 3.5" disks and this ancient format on 5.25".
Should I send 'em a picture of a 2.0" disk? ;-)
The serial port _is_ disappearing. I am concerned. I
have a number of
serial-interfaces devices, and from what I've seen in the LCDproc
user/developer community as well as the CBM-interface-devices-of-modern-
manufacture like the C2N232 (Atmel processor that emulates CBM tape
protocol on one end, RS-232 on the other), USB-to-serial dongles are
_not_ a seamless solution. The two arenas this is cropping up are
modern Macs and modern laptops. While these devices are not covered
under the 10-year umbrella, they will be at some point, and when they
are, they will _not_ have native serial ports and there will be many
things that we do with ease now, with 5-year-old machines that we be
hard five years from now.
Some are better than others, but you are right - they are rarely a
"seamless" solution by any means. I have a belkin adapter that so far has
done everything I ask of it - Winders & Linux. I've used it with my Tandy
200, a couple of routers, and with my Philips NeoPronto remote control. It
hasn't stranded me *yet* -> but I've not tested it under "strenuous"
conditions, either...
ISTR that all the newer generation PDAs have USB, not
serial, sync
ports. I have no idea if it's possible to use an adapter on them
to use them for portable terminals, etc., but I don't think so.
Altho it's not universal, quite a few of them will! Head over to Bitchin
100 (www.bitchin100.com) there are a lot of *active* projects for Model
100/102/200/NEC 8201A laptops there... on of which is by John R. Hogerhuis
- he's designing a Desklink-like emulator for palms, and I guess several
USB-based palmOS devices need only a special cable or cradle to achieve
RS232 output, and seem to work in a totally compatible manner to the older
palmOS serial interfaces.
So things aren't quite so dreary on that front... ;-)
Laterz,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers
Recycling is good, right??? Randomization is better!!!
If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead
disarmament should *not* be your first career choice.
20 Sep
20 Sep
3:44 a.m.
At 11:44 PM 9/19/2004, Roger Merchberger wrote:
I recently tried a Belkin USB-to-serial and a second brand (Amb-something)
on my Win2000 box in hopes of delivering an extra serial port for
my old Palm III. No go! Both blue-screened when Palm Desktop
tried to access the serial port. I suspect that either my motherboard
USB is blown or the drivers didn't like a dual-processor machine.
There are PCMCIA to serial adapters, no? And we'll be able to
insert PCI serial cards as long as PCI is around.
But I'd love to have a USB-to-floppy connection, too. And we'd all
love it if it was 8", 5 1/4", 3 1/2" and 2" compatible. :-)
- John
The serial port
_is_ disappearing. I am concerned. [...]
USB-to-serial dongles are
_not_ a seamless solution. The two arenas this is cropping up are
modern Macs and modern laptops. While these devices are not covered
under the 10-year umbrella, they will be at some point, and when they
are, they will _not_ have native serial ports and there will be many
things that we do with ease now, with 5-year-old machines that we be
hard five years from now.
Some are better than others, but you are right - they are rarely a "seamless"
solution by any means. I have a belkin adapter that so far has done everything I ask of it
- Winders & Linux. 
4:48 a.m.
On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, John Foust wrote:
I recently tried a Belkin USB-to-serial and a second
brand (Amb-something)
on my Win2000 box in hopes of delivering an extra serial port for
my old Palm III. No go! Both blue-screened when Palm Desktop
tried to access the serial port. I suspect that either my motherboard
USB is blown or the drivers didn't like a dual-processor machine.
Most
cheap-brand card drivers have not been tested with SMP
systems, and, often, will blow up on said systems. I have
serial, parallel, ISDN, Ethernet and WiFi USB thingies, and
they all work fine on my (Win2K) laptop.
There are PCMCIA to serial adapters, no? And
we'll be able to
insert PCI serial cards as long as PCI is around.
Yup.
But I'd love to have a USB-to-floppy connection,
too. And we'd all
love it if it was 8", 5 1/4", 3 1/2" and 2" compatible. :-)
I
have one of those. Well, two actually.. one is a regular
USB floppy thinger that came with the lappy (Compaq Armada)
and another one which is larger, but seems to be featuring
a regular floppy interface connector on the inside, so it
*should* be possible to operate that with non-3.5" drives
with some mods..
--f
5:20 a.m.
On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, David V. Corbin wrote:
Well. The drivers kinda blow up, resulting in funnyness and
general blue screens :)
(it WOULD be fun if the dongles actually blew up...)
--f
>> Most
cheap-brand card drivers have not been tested with SMP
>> systems, and, often, will blow up on said systems. I have
>> serial, parallel, ISDN, Ethernet and WiFi USB thingies, and
>> they all work fine on my (Win2K) laptop.
Blow UP??? Or just not work?????
5:41 a.m.
At 09:20 AM 9/20/2004, Fred N. van Kempen wrote:
On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, David V. Corbin wrote:
> >>> Most cheap-brand card drivers have not been tested with SMP
> >>> systems, and, often, will blow up on said systems.
And why is SMP so rare that it wouldn't have been tested?
So if Belkin is too cheap-brand, who makes an expensive
USB to serial converter that'll perform more reliably
and where can I buy it? For many of these odd gizmos,
are they actually made by reputable expensive companies?
There's a Cisco USB-to-serial adapter I don't know about?
- John
5:49 a.m.
On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, John Foust wrote:
And why is SMP so rare that it wouldn't have been
tested?
Because the cheap-brands market is basically 99% single-CPU
systems, and therefore the companies developing the support
software for em dont bother testing that.
So if Belkin is too cheap-brand, who makes an
expensive
USB to serial converter that'll perform more reliably
and where can I buy it? For many of these odd gizmos,
are they actually made by reputable expensive companies?
There's a Cisco USB-to-serial adapter I don't know about?
Dunno the brands
I have, can look em up. I do have a
Keyspan serial one, too (as another listmember does),
and that works fine. Ethernet and WiFi are Linksys
and Cisco. Dunno about the parallel and ISDN, probably
Xircom.
--f
5:55 a.m.
John Foust wrote:
At 09:20 AM 9/20/2004, Fred N. van Kempen wrote:
Keyspan. Their stuff isn't horribly expensive, but it seems to Just
Work.
Belkin is a fairly decent brand, but most of their stuff is rebadged
something else, and it's definitely oriented to consumer-level Windows
users. In my experience, the package usually doesn't address
non-Windows support, and there's a reason for that.
Doc
On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, David V. Corbin wrote:
>>>>Most cheap-brand card drivers have not been tested with SMP
>>>>systems, and, often, will blow up on said systems.
And why is SMP so rare that it wouldn't have been tested?
So if Belkin is too cheap-brand, who makes an expensive
USB to serial converter that'll perform more reliably
and where can I buy it? For many of these odd gizmos,
are they actually made by reputable expensive companies?
There's a Cisco USB-to-serial adapter I don't know about? 
5:55 a.m.
>>
>> > Most cheap-brand card drivers have not been tested with SMP
>> > systems, and, often, will blow up on said systems. I
>> > have serial, parallel, ISDN, Ethernet and WiFi USB
>> > thingies, and they all work fine on my (Win2K) laptop.
>> >
>> > Blow UP??? Or just not work?????
>>
>> Well. The drivers kinda blow up, resulting in funnyness
>> and general blue screens :)
>>
>> (it WOULD be fun if the dongles actually blew up...)
>>
No, No No! Then the "wonderful folks" at airport security would begin
confiscating them!
5:39 a.m.
John Foust wrote:
I recently tried a Belkin USB-to-serial and a second brand (Amb-something)
on my Win2000 box in hopes of delivering an extra serial port for
my old Palm III. No go! Both blue-screened when Palm Desktop
tried to access the serial port. I suspect that either my motherboard
USB is blown or the drivers didn't like a dual-processor machine.
Try Keyspan. Depending on what you need, they go reasonably cheaply
on eBay. I've used one to provide VTserver, and have quite a few
friends who use theirs for console access to Sparcs, RS/6000, and Alphas
from portless laptops.
There are PCMCIA to serial adapters, no? And
we'll be able to
insert PCI serial cards as long as PCI is around.
Be very careful - look up some user experiences - with the PCI serial
adapters. Some of them are very Windows-only.
Doc
19 Sep
19 Sep
7:57 p.m.
Now if you
were to say that the serial port is disappearing ... well
then I would be concerned.
The serial port _is_ disappearing. I am concerned. I have a number of 
8:04 p.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ethan Dicks" <dickset(a)amanda.spole.gov>
To: "Ronald Wayne" <AppleTO(a)gmail.com>om>; "General Discussion: On-Topic
and
Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 12:22 AM
Subject: Re: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past
(fwd)
On Sun, Sep 19, 2004 at 11:04:59PM -0400, Ronald Wayne
wrote:
Windows 95, 98, 98SE, ME have problems with vcache if you have 768MB of ram
or more that can cause hangs on bootup along with other problems.
http://godzilla.kennedykrieger.org/~jgillen/computer/pcmemory.html
"Out of Memory" Error Messages with Large Amounts of RAM
Installed
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The information in this article applies to:
a.. Microsoft Windows Millennium Edition
b.. Microsoft Windows 98 Second Edition
c.. Microsoft Windows 98
d.. Microsoft Windows 95
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
SYMPTOMS
If a computer that is running any of the versions of Windows listed
above contains more than 512 megabytes (for example, 768 megabytes) of
physical memory (RAM) installed, you may experience one or more of the
following symptoms:
a.. You may be unable to open an MS-DOS session (or command prompt)
while Windows is running. Attempts to do so may generate the following error
message:
There is not enough memory available to run this program.
Quit one or more programs, and then try again.
b.. The computer may stop responding (hang) while Windows is
starting, or halt and display the following error message:
Insufficient memory to initialize windows. Quit one or more
memory-resident programs or remove unnecessary utilities from your
Config.sys and Autoexec.bat files, and restart your computer.
CAUSE
The Windows 32-bit protected-mode cache driver (Vcache) determines the
maximum cache size based on the amount of RAM that is present when Windows
starts. Vcache then reserves enough memory addresses to permit it to access
a cache of the maximum size so that it can increase the cache to that size
if needed. These addresses are allocated in a range of virtual addresses
If the floppy disk disappeared, I would notice (I
use them) but would
not care.
I recently put together a semi-modern system (AMD Socket A, 1.4GHz,
768MB max RAM, 1 AGP, 5 PCI, 0 ISA) and some combination of the BIOS
and Win98 was unhappy. I had numerous issues of timeouts and slow
operation because it was waiting on a non-existent A: drive. Simply
disabling floppies in the BIOS was not adequate. My problems ended
when I _added_ a 3.5" drive and enabled it. I know there are other
systems that can run normally with no floppies, so I'm reluctant to
blame the operating system only.
from 0xC0000000 through 0xFFFFFFFF (3 to 4 gigabytes)
known as the system
arena.
On computers with large amounts of RAM, the maximum cache size can be
large enough that Vcache consumes all of the addresses in the system arena,
leaving no virtual memory addresses available for other functions such as
opening an MS-DOS prompt (creating a new virtual machine).
20 Sep
20 Sep
12:28 p.m.
On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, Teo Zenios wrote:
CAUSE
The Windows 32-bit protected-mode cache driver (Vcache) determines the
maximum cache size based on the amount of RAM that is present when Windows
starts. Vcache then reserves enough memory addresses to permit it to access
a cache of the maximum size so that it can increase the cache to that size
if needed. These addresses are allocated in a range of virtual addresses
from 0xC0000000 through 0xFFFFFFFF (3 to 4 gigabytes) known as the system
arena.
On computers with large amounts of RAM, the maximum cache size can be
large enough that Vcache consumes all of the addresses in the system arena,
leaving no virtual memory addresses available for other functions such as
opening an MS-DOS prompt (creating a new virtual machine).
Bill Gates must've thought that, surely, no one will ever need more than
640MB of memory!
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
12:56 p.m.
It was thus said that the Great Vintage Computer Festival once stated:
On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, Teo Zenios wrote:
Raymond Chen's blog The Old New Thing
(http://weblogs.asp.net/oldnewthing/) recently covered virtual memory
handling under Windows. In fact, his blog explains a lot of wierdness in
Windows and makes for some pretty interesting reading. The series starts
with
http://weblogs.asp.net/oldnewthing/archive/2004/08/05/208908.aspx
-spc (No one should ever need more than 4G ... )
CAUSE
The Windows 32-bit protected-mode cache driver (Vcache) determines the
maximum cache size based on the amount of RAM that is present when Windows
starts. Vcache then reserves enough memory addresses to permit it to access
a cache of the maximum size so that it can increase the cache to that size
if needed. These addresses are allocated in a range of virtual addresses
from 0xC0000000 through 0xFFFFFFFF (3 to 4 gigabytes) known as the system
arena.
On computers with large amounts of RAM, the maximum cache size can be
large enough that Vcache consumes all of the addresses in the system arena,
leaving no virtual memory addresses available for other functions such as
opening an MS-DOS prompt (creating a new virtual machine).
Bill Gates must've thought that, surely, no one will ever need more than
640MB of memory!
2:13 p.m.
On Mon, Sep 20, 2004 at 01:04:05AM -0400, Teo Zenios wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ethan Dicks" <dickset(a)amanda.spole.gov>
To: "Ronald Wayne" <AppleTO(a)gmail.com>om>; "General Discussion:
On-Topic and
Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 12:22 AM
Subject: Re: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past
(fwd)
Yes, I know... I specified "max" because that's the maximum amount of RAM
the system can take, not necessarily what was installed at the time.
When this was a W98 box, it had just shy of 512MB (one 256K, one 128K and
one 64K stick). For application reasons, I have upgraded it to XP and
bumped it up to 512MB.
Nevertheless, to keep things on-topic, it has a floppy because in the
past, trying to have _no_ floppy caused problems. With one attached,
I am no longer having wierd delays, etc.
-ethan
--
Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 20-Sep-2004 23:00 Z
South Pole Station
PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -84.9 F (-65.0 C) Windchill -115.4 F (-81.90 C)
APO AP 96598 Wind 6 kts Grid 091 Barometer 680.8 mb (10595. ft)
Ethan.Dicks(a)amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html
On Sun, Sep 19, 2004 at 11:04:59PM -0400, Ronald
Wayne wrote:
Windows 95, 98, 98SE, ME have problems with vcache if you have 768MB of ram
or more that can cause hangs on bootup along with other problems.
http://godzilla.kennedykrieger.org/~jgillen/computer/pcmemory.html If the floppy disk disappeared, I would notice (I
use them) but would
not care.
I recently put together a semi-modern system (AMD Socket A, 1.4GHz,
768MB max RAM, 1 AGP, 5 PCI, 0 ISA)...
11:06 a.m.
On Sun, 19 Sep 2004, Ronald Wayne wrote:
Besides, floppy diskettes are not as uniform as the
article implies.
They seem to suggest that there are two sizes, then leave it at that.
Well, there were different densities and encodings too. Oh, and there
were more than two physical sizes. (IIRC, 8" and 12" was common.
I have never heard of a 12" floppy, let alone heard that it is common.
Have you got references/pictures?
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
11:25 a.m.
On Sun, 19 Sep 2004, Ronald Wayne wrote:
If the floppy disk disappeared, I would notice (I use
them) but would
not care.
For that matter, most of US could disappear without anybody noticing nor
caring. If not for Frank's alert investigation, we wouldn't have even
known about Don's death for a long time.
It is also unfair to say the floppy disk is
disappearing
when CD-ROMs/CD-Rs/CD-RWs are serving similar purposes: to distribute
and install software, to exchange data between machines or people, and
to backup data. The main difference is the technology.
That's right. CDR/RW is the current "floppy" for many systems.
and USB flash drive is the current "floppy for many others.
Besides, floppy diskettes are not as uniform as the
article implies.
They seem to suggest that there are two sizes, then leave it at that.
Well, there were different densities and encodings too. Oh, and there
were more than two physical sizes. (IIRC, 8" and 12" was common.
Then there is all of the similar-but-failed technologies.)
12", if it ever existed, was NEVER common.
I'd gladly trade a 3" and a 3.25" for one.
The common sizes were 8 (with a few physical variations), 5.25 (with many
physical variations), 3", 3.25", 3.5" (with a few evolutionary steps, and
2 main physical varieties), 2", 2.5", 2.9", 3.9".
In addition to the physical varieties, there are thousands of physically
similar disks with mutually incompatible formats.
I couldn't
care less if they disappeared, because all of those different formats
make it next to impossible to transfer data between different
computers.
YOU might not care, but that is pretty damn insensitive towards those of
us who DO need and use them.
During the day today, I will use four to eight different machines, only
one of which is mine, and therefore permissible to make any changes to.
Some have USB ports; some do not.
Some have ZIP drives (mostly 100M); some do not.
Hardly any have CDR or CDRW.
But they ALL have floppy drives, including the one month old HPaq
machines.
I WILL be using floppies today.
Now if you were to say that the serial port is
disappearing ... well
then I would be concerned.
Be converned.
Be very concerned.
RS232 serial is disappearing rapidly, usually replaced by USB.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
3:06 p.m.
On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 13:25:35 -0700 (PDT), Fred Cisin <cisin(a)xenosoft.com> wrote:
So I've heard. :(
12", if it ever existed, was NEVER common.
Okay, I cannot find the original references so I make a retraction.
For what it's worth: the original reference was in the context of
Apple II systems, and both 8" and 12" floppies were mentioned. It was
also second hand information.
In addition to the physical varieties, there are
thousands of physically
similar disks with mutually incompatible formats.
<snip>
YOU might not care, but that is pretty damn
insensitive towards those of
us who DO need and use them.
Sorry for the sweeping, and personal, statement. Nah. I'll retract
that apology too. I am allowed to have my own opinion after all. ;)
To reiterate, I was only concerned about transfering data between
different platforms. The "mutually incompatible formats" is a big
problem there. Splitting files across multiple floppies is also a
pain, because floppies don't have enough capacity in most cases these
days (I will acknowledge that some people may differ on that point).
Now if you
were to say that the serial port is disappearing ... well
then I would be concerned.
Be converned.
Be very concerned.
RS232 serial is disappearing rapidly, usually replaced by USB. 
3:46 p.m.
yes it is dissapearing, my new lappy didnt have one. but I cant complain. I
didnt buy it :D
but yes 90% of the new laptop machines you can find are sans rs232 in favour
of an extra couple of usb ports. which dont make sense as the laptop
struggles to provide the full current needed and they're all limited current
nowadays compared to a desktop machine and the spec :(
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ronald Wayne" <AppleTO(a)gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 1:06 AM
Subject: Re: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past
(fwd)
<CUT>
Now if you were to say that the serial port is
disappearing ... well
So I've heard. :(
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.766 / Virus Database: 513 - Release Date: 18/09/2004
then I
would be concerned.
Be converned.
Be very concerned.
RS232 serial is disappearing rapidly, usually replaced by USB.
3:47 p.m.
oh and I forgot... it dont even have a floppy drive either... and you cant
get an external one :(
regards
charles
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ronald Wayne" <AppleTO(a)gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 1:06 AM
Subject: Re: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past
(fwd)
<CUT>
So I've heard. :(
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.766 / Virus Database: 513 - Release Date: 18/09/2004
Now if you were to say that the serial port is
disappearing ... well
then I would be concerned.
Be converned.
Be very concerned.
RS232 serial is disappearing rapidly, usually replaced by USB.
4:01 p.m.
> 12", if it ever existed, was NEVER common.
On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, Ronald Wayne wrote:
Okay, I cannot find the original references so I make
a retraction.
For what it's worth: the original reference was in the context of
Apple II systems, and both 8" and 12" floppies were mentioned. It was
also second hand information.
Apple ][ was 5.25".
There were some aftermarket add-ons for 8" (Sorrento Valley Associates)
There was no 12" floppy.
In addition to
the physical varieties, there are thousands of physically
similar disks with mutually incompatible formats.
<snip>
YOU might not care, but that is pretty damn
insensitive towards those of
us who DO need and use them.
Sorry for the sweeping, and personal, statement. Nah. I'll retract
that apology too. I am allowed to have my own opinion after all. ;)
To reiterate, I was only concerned about transfering data between
different platforms. The "mutually incompatible formats" is a big
problem there. Splitting files across multiple floppies is also a
pain, because
floppies don't have enough capacity in most cases these days (I will
acknowledge that some people may differ on that point).
MS-DOS is seriously lacking in good ways to split a file!
BACKUP would do it, but the early versions of BACKUP prepended a header
that made it inconvenient to reassemble the file without using RESTORE.
A C compiler or Assembler for demo use in class fits easily
on a floppy with plenty of room for sample files.
But for CAB (Computer Assisted Bloat), such as Visual C++,
a floppy is, indeed, woefully too small for anything past "Hello, world".
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
4:19 p.m.
Wait, I don't get all this fuss, is it a *surprise* that floppies will
so be no more?
PS: I'm with Fred, it's safe to say there never, ever was such a thing
as a 12" floppy disk product, even if it was printed in an Apple ][
brochure. Typos happen.
4:20 p.m.
hp is the new compaq.
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21 Sep
21 Sep
8:51 a.m.
On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 18:01:41 -0700 (PDT), Fred Cisin <cisin(a)xenosoft.com> wrote:
Apple ][ was 5.25".
I know perfectly well what was /standard/ fare for the Apple II. I
may only have three of them on hand, but I assure you I have more in
storage.
Not caring about the end of floppies must also take
into account the other
uses besides disk format conversion. Although THAT IS an issue for me:
http://www.xenosoft.com/xcflyer.html
See the "Sorry, No Apples" bit, and you'll understand why I say they
aren't ideal. That said, I believe that I have noted on twice that
this is a personal opinion. You are free to have your own opinion.
George Morrow said (NOT in his book
of quotes) that the answer was for the computer industry to cut
a deal with the clothing industry to enlarge shirt pockets up to
5.25" or 8".
LOL.
20 Sep
20 Sep
7:40 p.m.
On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, Ronald Wayne wrote:
On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 13:25:35 -0700 (PDT), Fred Cisin
<cisin(a)xenosoft.com> wrote:
Where ever it came from, it was painfully wrong :(
--
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12", if it ever existed, was NEVER common.
Okay, I cannot find the original references so I make a retraction.
For what it's worth: the original reference was in the context of
Apple II systems, and both 8" and 12" floppies were mentioned. It was
also second hand information. 
8:55 p.m.
Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, Ronald Wayne wrote:
12" floppies? The apple I pales.
Jim Davis.
On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 13:25:35 -0700 (PDT), Fred
Cisin <cisin(a)xenosoft.com> wrote:
Where ever it came from, it was painfully wrong :(
12", if it ever existed, was NEVER common.
Okay, I cannot find the original references so I make a retraction.
For what it's worth: the original reference was in the context of
Apple II systems, and both 8" and 12" floppies were mentioned. It was
also second hand information.
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