8 Dec
2005
8 Dec
'05
6:41 p.m.
I'm interested in setting up a network of hobbyist DEC machines linked
together in a DECnet phase IV network. Why? I suppose there's no really
good reason, but it seems like it would be fun to be able to do "SHOW NET"
or "NCP SHOW ACTIVE NODES" and see a whole long list of machines that
aren't
mine :-) Besides, it would be a good way to share access to real,
non-simulated, VMS/RSX/RSTS and even, maybe, TOPS-10 or 20, machines.
Does anyone else agree? Is anyone else interested in participating?
I know I'm not the first to think of this; in particular, I've had a few
email discussions recently with Johnny Billquist about HECnet,
http://www.update.uu.se/~bqt/hecnet.html
At some point I'd like to link up with HECnet, but right now Johnny is
having ISP problems and it sounds like HECnet is down to one or two nodes.
Are there any other hobbyist DECnet associations that are going strong?
As for technology, it seems like the best thing would be to use the
Internet as our communications medium. Nobody wants to pay for
point-to-point leased lines anymore, after all. Multinet, TCPware, and even
DECNet Phase V all have the ability to send DECnet traffic over IP. Right
now I'm leaning towards Multinet - they have a free hobbyist license
program, and Multinet can create point-to-point virtual DECnet circuits
using UDP packets that can be routed over the Internet. They're simple to
set up and administer.
I have a fair amount of Internet bandwidth available at my location, and I
can set aside a VS4000 VLC or model 90 to serve as a dedicated Phase IV
routing node.
Bob Armstrong
8 Dec
8 Dec
7:03 p.m.
I'm interested in setting up a network of hobbyist
DEC machines linked
together in a DECnet phase IV network. Why? I suppose there's no
really good reason, but it seems like it would be fun to be able to
do "SHOW NET" or "NCP SHOW ACTIVE NODES" and see a whole long list
of machines that aren't mine :-) Besides, it would be a good way to
share access to real, non-simulated, VMS/RSX/RSTS and even, maybe,
TOPS-10 or 20, machines.
That actually sounds interesting. Among other things, it would
give folks like me who are newish to decnet a way to test against
known-working systems.
How would you protect these older systems against abuse from the random
crackers? VMS is probably tolerably safe in current versions, if
properly managed, but I'm betting there are problems with other OSes.
You could do vpns, I suppose.
De
7:20 p.m.
How would you protect these older systems against
abuse from
the random crackers? VMS is probably tolerably safe in
current versions, if properly managed, but I'm betting there
are problems with other OSes. You could do vpns, I suppose.
Depends on what you mean. Ordinary ("ordinary" :-) people who don't
have
a VAX running Multinet and join the "network" wouldn't be able to get in to
any of the DECnet machines.
However, it is true that the Multinet DECnet virtual circuit over IP has
virtually no security. It would be easy, if you knew a little bit about
DECnet and were so motivated, to sniff or spoof the traffic. Probably there
just aren't many hackers out there who know enough about DECnet to worry
about, and they have better targets for their efforts.
Yes, you could solve the problem with VPNs. Multinet v5.1 seems to have
the ability to do IPSEC, but I have no experience with that feature. If
it's anything like IPSEC on a PC, it's a lot of overhead for a poor VAX.
Bob
9 Dec
9 Dec
1:07 a.m.
Robert Armstrong wrote:
Ciscos will do DECnet Phase IV secure tunnels over IP too. So will IBM
Mainframes.
Peace... Sridhar
How would you
protect these older systems against abuse from
the random crackers? VMS is probably tolerably safe in
current versions, if properly managed, but I'm betting there
are problems with other OSes. You could do vpns, I suppose.
Depends on what you mean. Ordinary ("ordinary" :-) people who don't
have
a VAX running Multinet and join the "network" wouldn't be able to get in
to
any of the DECnet machines.
However, it is true that the Multinet DECnet virtual circuit over IP has
virtually no security. It would be easy, if you knew a little bit about
DECnet and were so motivated, to sniff or spoof the traffic. Probably there
just aren't many hackers out there who know enough about DECnet to worry
about, and they have better targets for their efforts.
Yes, you could solve the problem with VPNs. Multinet v5.1 seems to have
the ability to do IPSEC, but I have no experience with that feature. If
it's anything like IPSEC on a PC, it's a lot of overhead for a poor VAX. 
2:13 a.m.
At 1:07 AM -0500 12/9/05, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
Ciscos will do DECnet Phase IV secure tunnels over IP
too. So will
IBM Mainframes.
Peace... Sridhar
So, does this mean that if a Hobbyist DECnet gets up and running,
you'll hook an IBM Mainframe up to it :^)
I for one think that would be seriously cool, but no, I don't
seriously expect you to :^)
Zane
--
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
2:35 a.m.
Zane H. Healy wrote:
At 1:07 AM -0500 12/9/05, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
I just bought a house, so it's going to be a few months before I can
afford to power it again, but I wouldn't mind hooking my G1 to it.
Peace... Sridhar
Ciscos will do DECnet Phase IV secure tunnels
over IP too. So will
IBM Mainframes.
Peace... Sridhar
So, does this mean that if a Hobbyist DECnet gets up and running, you'll
hook an IBM Mainframe up to it :^)
I for one think that would be seriously cool, but no, I don't seriously
expect you to :^) 
3 a.m.
Probably there just aren't many hackers out there
who know enough
about DECnet to worry about,
I suspect there are actually plenty of them - several are probably on
this very list - but most (verging on all, would be my guess) are
honest enough to be no problem.
/~\ The ASCII der Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
8 Dec
8 Dec
7:05 p.m.
Yeah, as soon as I get my TK50 or one of my 9 tracks working I'm going to
load DECnet/E, and then hopefully put my 11/23plus up on HECnet.
It would be neat if we could get the guy running the DEC 10 on pdpplanet to
link up to us also.
I think this'll pick up steam as it rolls downhill, as most net trends do.
Once people see that there are several machines on the network, it'll become
larger.
I gotta say, it sure would be cool to have my installation of DECmail
connected with other systems across the globe.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Robert Armstrong
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 5:41 PM
To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
Subject: A Hobbyist DECnet Network
I'm interested in setting up a network of hobbyist DEC machines linked
together in a DECnet phase IV network. Why? I suppose there's no really
good reason, but it seems like it would be fun to be able to do "SHOW NET"
or "NCP SHOW ACTIVE NODES" and see a whole long list of machines that
aren't
mine :-) Besides, it would be a good way to share access to real,
non-simulated, VMS/RSX/RSTS and even, maybe, TOPS-10 or 20, machines.
Does anyone else agree? Is anyone else interested in participating?
I know I'm not the first to think of this; in particular, I've had a few
email discussions recently with Johnny Billquist about HECnet,
http://www.update.uu.se/~bqt/hecnet.html
At some point I'd like to link up with HECnet, but right now Johnny is
having ISP problems and it sounds like HECnet is down to one or two nodes.
Are there any other hobbyist DECnet associations that are going strong?
As for technology, it seems like the best thing would be to use the
Internet as our communications medium. Nobody wants to pay for
point-to-point leased lines anymore, after all. Multinet, TCPware, and
even
DECNet Phase V all have the ability to send DECnet traffic over IP. Right
now I'm leaning towards Multinet - they have a free hobbyist license
program, and Multinet can create point-to-point virtual DECnet circuits
using UDP packets that can be routed over the Internet. They're simple to
set up and administer.
I have a fair amount of Internet bandwidth available at my location, and
I
can set aside a VS4000 VLC or model 90 to serve as a dedicated Phase IV
routing node.
Bob Armstrong
8:22 p.m.
How were you going to connect physically with
HECnet? Set up some other
box as a gateway?
Bob
Yeah, using my Sun machine that I use for everything else, I was just going
to tunnel a serial port onto HECnet, and link it in with Telnet, as Johnny
describes on the HECnet page.
However, since I'm tunneling serial, I wonder if I could use some sort of
high speed synchronous device instead of asynchronous. I do have two
synchronous QBUS serial cards, though I have no way of knowing how I'd
connect them to the Sun, nor if I can tunnel sync instead of async serial.
There's also the other option of buying the VMS hobbyist kit and setting up
an emulated VAX under SIMH, but I don't know how that handles Ethernet
(which would be a lot faster, and I do have a DEQNA set up and ready to use)
Anyone have any suggestions?
11 Dec
11 Dec
10:49 a.m.
Given enough spare time and some guidance I can connect my VAX 3540
to HECnet. I have a DMR11 that I can put in the VAX, a synchronous
null-modem, and a KDP that can go in the KS10. This would
theoretically get a PDP10 on HECnet.
At 07:05 PM 12/8/2005, Julian Wolfe wrote:
Yeah, as soon as I get my TK50 or one of my 9 tracks
working I'm going to
load DECnet/E, and then hopefully put my 11/23plus up on HECnet.
It would be neat if we could get the guy running the DEC 10 on pdpplanet to
link up to us also.
I think this'll pick up steam as it rolls downhill, as most net trends do.
Once people see that there are several machines on the network, it'll become
larger.
I gotta say, it sure would be cool to have my installation of DECmail
connected with other systems across the globe.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
> On Behalf Of Robert Armstrong
> Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 5:41 PM
> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
> Subject: A Hobbyist DECnet Network
>
>
> I'm interested in setting up a network of hobbyist DEC machines linked
> together in a DECnet phase IV network. Why? I suppose there's no really
> good reason, but it seems like it would be fun to be able to do "SHOW
NET"
> or "NCP SHOW ACTIVE NODES" and see a whole long list of machines that
> aren't
> mine :-) Besides, it would be a good way to share access to real,
> non-simulated, VMS/RSX/RSTS and even, maybe, TOPS-10 or 20, machines.
>
> Does anyone else agree? Is anyone else interested in participating?
>
> I know I'm not the first to think of this; in particular, I've had a few
> email discussions recently with Johnny Billquist about HECnet,
>
> http://www.update.uu.se/~bqt/hecnet.html
>
> At some point I'd like to link up with HECnet, but right now Johnny is
> having ISP problems and it sounds like HECnet is down to one or two nodes.
>
> Are there any other hobbyist DECnet associations that are going strong?
>
> As for technology, it seems like the best thing would be to use the
> Internet as our communications medium. Nobody wants to pay for
> point-to-point leased lines anymore, after all. Multinet, TCPware, and
> even
> DECNet Phase V all have the ability to send DECnet traffic over IP. Right
> now I'm leaning towards Multinet - they have a free hobbyist license
> program, and Multinet can create point-to-point virtual DECnet circuits
> using UDP packets that can be routed over the Internet. They're simple to
> set up and administer.
>
> I have a fair amount of Internet bandwidth available at my location, and
> I
> can set aside a VS4000 VLC or model 90 to serve as a dedicated Phase IV
> routing node.
>
> Bob Armstrong
>
>
Michael Thompson
E-Mail: M_Thompson at IDS.net
8 Dec
8 Dec
7:39 p.m.
At 3:41 PM -0800 12/8/05, Robert Armstrong wrote:
I know I'm not the first to think of this; in
particular, I've had a few
email discussions recently with Johnny Billquist about HECnet,
http://www.update.uu.se/~bqt/hecnet.html
At some point I'd like to link up with HECnet, but right now Johnny is
having ISP problems and it sounds like HECnet is down to one or two nodes.
Are there any other hobbyist DECnet associations that are going strong?
HECnet's still around? I thought it had died off without ever really
getting started. I wonder why on earth I quit messing with it
then... Actually taking a quick look at the HECnet mail list
archives on my box, probably was a combination of the mail list dying
off (unless I got dropped), and real life taking to much of my time
:^/
I have a fair amount of Internet bandwidth available
at my location, and I
can set aside a VS4000 VLC or model 90 to serve as a dedicated Phase IV
routing node.
Hmmm, I wonder what I did with the Storage Works shelf that I had for
the VS4000 60 or 90 I was going to use. It's around here somewhere,
hopefully with the drives still installed, just not sure if it's
here, or in storage. I know the VLC, 60, and 90 are all in storage,
but I know where, and they're easy to get to :^) Or maybe I could
manage an AlphaStation 200 4/233 as I have a pair sitting around
doing nothing.
Needless to say, I'd be interested in a Hobbyist DECnet, if I can
find the time to put a node together.
What I can't manage is putting a physical PDP-11 on it, though I
might be able to do an emulated one.
Zane
--
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
7:58 p.m.
>>> Might be extra neat to have it up for
things like the VCF's, for
example.
Good point!
But what the network needs first and foremost is a dedicated mailing list.
:)
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of John Allain
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 7:42 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: A Hobbyist DECnet Network
Is anyone else interested in participating?
Yes I would be interested.
Might be extra neat to have it up for things like the VCF's, for example.
Good Luck!
John A.
frequent DECnet user, never (yet) a netadmin.
mainly a microVAX series collector, east coast.
11:36 p.m.
But what the network needs first and foremost is a
dedicated mailing list.
I run a fairly large LISTSERV installation; I volunteer to do this.
Eventually, it might be possible to run one of the old versions of
LISTSERV-Lite on a VAX that is part of the network, but for starters,
this would be a drop in the bucket on the big system.
De
9 Dec
9 Dec
1:11 a.m.
John Allain wrote:
I'd be interested too. I have a cluster of 30+ VAXen lying around,
along with other machines that support DECnet.
Peace... Sridhar
Is anyone else
interested in participating?
Yes I would be interested.
Might be extra neat to have it up for things like the VCF's, for example.
Good Luck!
6871
days inactive
6874
days old
15 comments
9 participants
participants (9)
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allain＠panix.com -
bob＠jfcl.com -
drb＠msu.edu -
fireflyst＠earthlink.net -
healyzh＠aracnet.com -
m_thompson＠ids.net -
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ploopster＠gmail.com